August 7, 2025 • 11 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Jordan Williams from the Taxpayers' Union and former Auckland mayor Phil Goff joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Wellington Council has voted down a proposal to build a fence around its waterfront. Do we think this was the right move?
High gas prices are set to bring down another company - this time it's fertiliser manufacturer Ballance. How many more of these incidents can our economy take? What can we do to stop this?
It's been revealed the Government spent too much during the Covid-19 pandemic, according to new reports. What do we make of this?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Unique Homes
Uniquely for you on the.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Huddles me this evening we have Jordan Williams Taxpayers Union
and Phil goth former Auklam mayor, form High Commissioner to
the UK, former Labor Party captain minister. Hello you too,
Hello Jordan. Should Wellington build a fence around its waterfront?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Well, it should at least consult with the public on it.
It's good to say that for once common sense broke
out at Wellington Council. Look at your real issue. I
was worried about drunken politicians jumping into the water in
the middle of the night and something bad happening. Surely
be chief, you just put a fence around the council
and round the waterfront.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
In all serious notes, seriousness, Phil, there have been a
number of young people especially who have got on the
raz and and ended up in the drink and not
survived right. So and so it is a risk. The
question is if you can be blunt about it. The
question is do you fence off the entire thing and
ruin it for everybody? Because about seven people have died
in the space of time what it is.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, I think there's I went back and just checked
the records on that one. There's been nine deaths and
three that were almost deaths. So you're talking about a
significant number of people, some no doubt reflecting the fact
that there are a lot of bars around that part
of the world. But you know, people do stupid things.
That doesn't mean to say you want them to die
as a result of it. Some were quite elderly and
(01:24):
simply had an accident, fell off. I think they're not
fencing the whole of the thing and what the paper
went up to the council to do. But the Kuma
toto and the Queen's warfarea I know it easter to
wander down there, you know, during the dinner break sometimes
you get a bit of fresh air from the stale
atmosphere of Parliament. Look, I think almost inevitably they'll have
(01:44):
to put the fence in. Should they consult? Yeah? Yeah, no,
I looked. You imagine you imagine what the consequences were
if somebody fell off that and died tomorrow, and you
had ignored a coroner's clear direction that there was an
urgent need to remedy a safety problem that had caused
nine deaths in since two thousand and six, and nearly
(02:08):
caused others. You wouldn't have a leg to stand on
if you ignored that recommendation and that death toll.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Do you think, Jordan, that it's an inevitability?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
No, No, I don't. I'm interested of that number. How
many of those deaths related to people climbing the crane?
Old crane thing that a beautiful old historic.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Did you struck out when you when you counted it?
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Stop?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
I couldn't stop people climbing over to climb.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Of course it won't. Yeah, of course it wouldn't stop that.
And I don't and I don't think. I don't think
that the guy that jumped off the crane, which was
an act of total stupidity, is included in that death
that death total. I'd have to go back and check
that there were a couple of people that simply off
the edge. It's fairly narrow, as you know down there,
(03:04):
there's a lot of traffic on it, bike, skateboarders, the
whole lot, and there's a clear risk. So you know,
it's funny that you have to fence your swimming pool.
I don't have kids anymore, but I have to have
a fence around the swimming pool, and I don't gristle
about that. You know, that's the way it is. And
there are a lot of kids that did dine, and
you get visitors from time to time. But you've got
(03:25):
a clear area where there are a lot of fatalities
and it's not just a one off. Yeah, it's common
sense that you need to do something about it.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Man, it's a huge rightly champion public access onto the
Auckland waterfront. Not the textum, but my business is actually
based down on Queens Sorry Princess Wharf and that is
a working port. We regularly reminded you couldn't possibly put
a fence around there because you know, it would mean
(03:57):
that the port couldn't use it. How do you have
it both or balance that between public access versus an
inner city port with the benefit that brings.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Yeah, well you're not going to stop public access. You're
going to have public access there. Secondly, they're not necessarily
going to fence the whole area. They're going to fence
the area where there is a clear risk shine by
the fact there's been quite a number of fatalities as
well as a number of near misses people that nearly died. So,
as you said, it is a matter of balance and
(04:27):
you have to balance those factors out. But if I
was making that decision, Look, I don't know what the
legal liability of the council would be if they fail
to act on a coroner's recommendation and then another couple
of people die, you know, and there are people down
there with kids and the kids you know what kids
are like, young kids. You don't have them on a leash.
They run around. They could fall into the water. I
(04:50):
think you'd be at risk of something.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Fall in the water. You fish them out again. They
need to fall under the water to learn that you
can fall in the water.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Yeah. Yeah, But the people that fell in the water
went fished out and they died. Three were fished out,
nearly died.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I was trucked by the kids. Hey, listen very quickly.
I just want to get your take on each of this,
right on this, each of your take, sorry, Jordan. How
bad is it? Is there anything that we can do
to stop businesses shutting down and mothballing because of the
gas prices? How bad is it if there is nothing
we can do, which is the situation we're.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
In oh, I mean it's I mean we were witnessing
the de industrialization. I think that it was. I think
the most shocking staff I've seen the last six months
was the final quarter of last year. It came out
in about April electricity usage was down by eighteen percent.
That wasn't even in only twelve months, and that was
not during the peak squeat sorry, the winter squeeze. There is.
(05:50):
You know, the fact is a country that should have
cheap electricity and cheap power and cheap energy between. But
you know, all sources of industrial heat is now incredibly
expensive and there's quite a long lead in time with
the stuff, and the chickens are coming home to roost.
I mean, you feel it's domestic customers. It's quite a
(06:12):
long lag effect. It takes a few years to flow through.
But you only need especially you've got kids and getting
stupidly high electricity bills to see it. Well, that's industrial
New Zella now for a few years.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, totally, Phil, I want your take on it when
we come back from the break.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, the ones
for unmashed results.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Right, you're back with a huddle Phil Golf and Jordan Williams. Phil,
what do you make of the situation with gas? Can
we do anything to stop this?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Well, if you want a cheap generation, it's not going
to be by gas. Gas costs you about one hundred
and seventy dollars per megawaite hour to generate wind is
about sixty to eighty and falling sold is around sixty
to one hundred and ten and falling and hydro and
you probably you're not going to do much more with hydro,
but geothermal is also another source. What's the problem with gas? Well,
(07:01):
you've got a declining domestic supply, The big fields of
Maui and Pohukura are running out, and you've got international pressures,
you know, the sanctions on Russia and all those.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So are you mean just fatalistic about what's happening with
these businesses? And no, there's nothing we can do.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
No, no, no, I'm not being fatalistic about it. I'm
saying you've got to look at alternative supplies of energy
generation other than gas, because gas is not the cheapest
and will never be the cheapest, and has the other
problems associated with climate self imposed.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Come on, we're the only country in the world that's
reducing gas usage in favor of building up coal stocks
because we stopped the willing gas expiration.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
No, no, no, look at if you could do.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Today.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I'm sure, And they don't have any
vested interest in it. But I do know this that
we've signed up under both both governments toi's carbon mission payments,
and they're going to become more and more expensive. We've signed,
We've tried, not method we've signed. We've signed treaties, trading
treaties where we've guaranteed that we'll meet what we've set
(08:13):
out and are obligated to meet. That will put our
trading religion them those things, that's those things are serious issues.
You can't ignore them. I went to a lot of
London last year with a climate change minister, hard headed
businessmen in the city of London, and they said, you've
got to do more to deal with the problems of
climate change because so many of your places will become
(08:34):
uninsurable unless you have adaptation and unless we do the
mitigation that we need to do. Now. They're not green,
they are hard headed insurers and everybody that whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Side of the political spectrum you want it's not going
to happen. We're not going to meet those targets. All
we can do is adapt. That's the truth.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Well, well, we've taken action to make it sure that
we won't meet those tickets. There are other things that
we could have done. You know, we all we all
carry on about China creating so much. China now has
the best battery, the best electric car supply, and dealing
with their remissions problem. We haven't shown the same we
haven't shown the same determination. And Donald Trump's course doing
(09:16):
exactly the opposite.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
China's got a leading when it comes to what we
do with the climate. How very quickly, guys, Okay, Jordan,
how damning do you think it is that Treasury warned
Grant Robertson multiple times to reign in the COVID spending
and he didn't.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Well, yeah, I mean what in fairness, neither has Nichola Willis.
You know, I mean, there's a percentage of the economy
of government's now bigger. We're borrowing at a faster rate
than when Grant Robinson left office. And you saw these
unbelievable public servet numbers out last week showing that the
bureaucracy is currently larger than it was when Labor left
left office. Yes, obviously, you know I would say that,
(09:53):
you know, it was outrageous that, you know, the rest
of the world turned off turned down the tap again,
and New Zealand didn't. But we're still turning it on harder.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And Phil, how damning is it that Nikola Willis is
still spending as much as Grant Robertson did at the
height of the pandemic.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Well, you can't, it's not quite not long on that,
that's a fact. But you know, just think back to
what happened during COVID. Every small business, every industrial group
was lobbying the government to do more to help them
because they talked about having to mass lay off and
an almighty recession caused by COVID and the measures taken
(10:28):
to combat OVID. So it's wise. It may be wise
after the event. At the time, we were pretty damn
pleased that there were subsidies to keep people employed and
people with incomes and industry are going rather than going bankrupt.
So you want to think of it in.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
That context, Jordan, did you want to correct me, Well,
we're not spending at the very height of COVID. That
would be guilding the lily. But the point is that
the rest of the world pulled back a lot harder.
We're knowing near where we were pre pre COVID. And
the fact is that, you know, the market is sending
(11:04):
a signal right now. A ten year bond yield is
higher than the UK. The colaxons are flashing, the government
gets grief, a so called cut suspending it's actually only
slowed down the growth. You know, the government was elected
to pull back and it actually isn't.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Guys. It is lovely to chat to the pair of you.
Thank you so much, Phil GoF Jordan Williams a huddle.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to
News Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Unique Homes
Uniquely for you on the.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Huddles me this evening we have Jordan Williams Taxpayers Union
and Phil goth former Auklam mayor, form High Commissioner to
the UK, former Labor Party captain minister. Hello you too,
Hello Jordan. Should Wellington build a fence around its waterfront?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Well, it should at least consult with the public on it.
It's good to say that for once common sense broke
out at Wellington Council. Look at your real issue. I
was worried about drunken politicians jumping into the water in
the middle of the night and something bad happening. Surely
be chief, you just put a fence around the council
and round the waterfront.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
In all serious notes, seriousness, Phil, there have been a
number of young people especially who have got on the
raz and and ended up in the drink and not
survived right. So and so it is a risk. The
question is if you can be blunt about it. The
question is do you fence off the entire thing and
ruin it for everybody? Because about seven people have died
in the space of time what it is.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, I think there's I went back and just checked
the records on that one. There's been nine deaths and
three that were almost deaths. So you're talking about a
significant number of people, some no doubt reflecting the fact
that there are a lot of bars around that part
of the world. But you know, people do stupid things.
That doesn't mean to say you want them to die
as a result of it. Some were quite elderly and
(01:24):
simply had an accident, fell off. I think they're not
fencing the whole of the thing and what the paper
went up to the council to do. But the Kuma
toto and the Queen's warfarea I know it easter to
wander down there, you know, during the dinner break sometimes
you get a bit of fresh air from the stale
atmosphere of Parliament. Look, I think almost inevitably they'll have
(01:44):
to put the fence in. Should they consult? Yeah? Yeah, no,
I looked. You imagine you imagine what the consequences were
if somebody fell off that and died tomorrow, and you
had ignored a coroner's clear direction that there was an
urgent need to remedy a safety problem that had caused
nine deaths in since two thousand and six, and nearly
(02:08):
caused others. You wouldn't have a leg to stand on
if you ignored that recommendation and that death toll.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Do you think, Jordan, that it's an inevitability?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
No, No, I don't. I'm interested of that number. How
many of those deaths related to people climbing the crane?
Old crane thing that a beautiful old historic.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Did you struck out when you when you counted it?
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Stop?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
I couldn't stop people climbing over to climb.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Of course it won't. Yeah, of course it wouldn't stop that.
And I don't and I don't think. I don't think
that the guy that jumped off the crane, which was
an act of total stupidity, is included in that death
that death total. I'd have to go back and check
that there were a couple of people that simply off
the edge. It's fairly narrow, as you know down there,
(03:04):
there's a lot of traffic on it, bike, skateboarders, the
whole lot, and there's a clear risk. So you know,
it's funny that you have to fence your swimming pool.
I don't have kids anymore, but I have to have
a fence around the swimming pool, and I don't gristle
about that. You know, that's the way it is. And
there are a lot of kids that did dine, and
you get visitors from time to time. But you've got
(03:25):
a clear area where there are a lot of fatalities
and it's not just a one off. Yeah, it's common
sense that you need to do something about it.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Man, it's a huge rightly champion public access onto the
Auckland waterfront. Not the textum, but my business is actually
based down on Queens Sorry Princess Wharf and that is
a working port. We regularly reminded you couldn't possibly put
a fence around there because you know, it would mean
(03:57):
that the port couldn't use it. How do you have
it both or balance that between public access versus an
inner city port with the benefit that brings.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Yeah, well you're not going to stop public access. You're
going to have public access there. Secondly, they're not necessarily
going to fence the whole area. They're going to fence
the area where there is a clear risk shine by
the fact there's been quite a number of fatalities as
well as a number of near misses people that nearly died. So,
as you said, it is a matter of balance and
(04:27):
you have to balance those factors out. But if I
was making that decision, Look, I don't know what the
legal liability of the council would be if they fail
to act on a coroner's recommendation and then another couple
of people die, you know, and there are people down
there with kids and the kids you know what kids
are like, young kids. You don't have them on a leash.
They run around. They could fall into the water. I
(04:50):
think you'd be at risk of something.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Fall in the water. You fish them out again. They
need to fall under the water to learn that you
can fall in the water.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Yeah. Yeah, But the people that fell in the water
went fished out and they died. Three were fished out,
nearly died.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I was trucked by the kids. Hey, listen very quickly.
I just want to get your take on each of this,
right on this, each of your take, sorry, Jordan. How
bad is it? Is there anything that we can do
to stop businesses shutting down and mothballing because of the
gas prices? How bad is it if there is nothing
we can do, which is the situation we're.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
In oh, I mean it's I mean we were witnessing
the de industrialization. I think that it was. I think
the most shocking staff I've seen the last six months
was the final quarter of last year. It came out
in about April electricity usage was down by eighteen percent.
That wasn't even in only twelve months, and that was
not during the peak squeat sorry, the winter squeeze. There is.
(05:50):
You know, the fact is a country that should have
cheap electricity and cheap power and cheap energy between. But
you know, all sources of industrial heat is now incredibly
expensive and there's quite a long lead in time with
the stuff, and the chickens are coming home to roost.
I mean, you feel it's domestic customers. It's quite a
(06:12):
long lag effect. It takes a few years to flow through.
But you only need especially you've got kids and getting
stupidly high electricity bills to see it. Well, that's industrial
New Zella now for a few years.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, totally, Phil, I want your take on it when
we come back from the break.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, the ones
for unmashed results.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Right, you're back with a huddle Phil Golf and Jordan Williams. Phil,
what do you make of the situation with gas? Can
we do anything to stop this?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Well, if you want a cheap generation, it's not going
to be by gas. Gas costs you about one hundred
and seventy dollars per megawaite hour to generate wind is
about sixty to eighty and falling sold is around sixty
to one hundred and ten and falling and hydro and
you probably you're not going to do much more with hydro,
but geothermal is also another source. What's the problem with gas? Well,
(07:01):
you've got a declining domestic supply, The big fields of
Maui and Pohukura are running out, and you've got international pressures,
you know, the sanctions on Russia and all those.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So are you mean just fatalistic about what's happening with
these businesses? And no, there's nothing we can do.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
No, no, no, I'm not being fatalistic about it. I'm
saying you've got to look at alternative supplies of energy
generation other than gas, because gas is not the cheapest
and will never be the cheapest, and has the other
problems associated with climate self imposed.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Come on, we're the only country in the world that's
reducing gas usage in favor of building up coal stocks
because we stopped the willing gas expiration.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
No, no, no, look at if you could do.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Today.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I'm sure, And they don't have any
vested interest in it. But I do know this that
we've signed up under both both governments toi's carbon mission payments,
and they're going to become more and more expensive. We've signed,
We've tried, not method we've signed. We've signed treaties, trading
treaties where we've guaranteed that we'll meet what we've set
(08:13):
out and are obligated to meet. That will put our
trading religion them those things, that's those things are serious issues.
You can't ignore them. I went to a lot of
London last year with a climate change minister, hard headed
businessmen in the city of London, and they said, you've
got to do more to deal with the problems of
climate change because so many of your places will become
(08:34):
uninsurable unless you have adaptation and unless we do the
mitigation that we need to do. Now. They're not green,
they are hard headed insurers and everybody that whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Side of the political spectrum you want it's not going
to happen. We're not going to meet those targets. All
we can do is adapt. That's the truth.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Well, well, we've taken action to make it sure that
we won't meet those tickets. There are other things that
we could have done. You know, we all we all
carry on about China creating so much. China now has
the best battery, the best electric car supply, and dealing
with their remissions problem. We haven't shown the same we
haven't shown the same determination. And Donald Trump's course doing
(09:16):
exactly the opposite.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
China's got a leading when it comes to what we
do with the climate. How very quickly, guys, Okay, Jordan,
how damning do you think it is that Treasury warned
Grant Robertson multiple times to reign in the COVID spending
and he didn't.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Well, yeah, I mean what in fairness, neither has Nichola Willis.
You know, I mean, there's a percentage of the economy
of government's now bigger. We're borrowing at a faster rate
than when Grant Robinson left office. And you saw these
unbelievable public servet numbers out last week showing that the
bureaucracy is currently larger than it was when Labor left
left office. Yes, obviously, you know I would say that,
(09:53):
you know, it was outrageous that, you know, the rest
of the world turned off turned down the tap again,
and New Zealand didn't. But we're still turning it on harder.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And Phil, how damning is it that Nikola Willis is
still spending as much as Grant Robertson did at the
height of the pandemic.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Well, you can't, it's not quite not long on that,
that's a fact. But you know, just think back to
what happened during COVID. Every small business, every industrial group
was lobbying the government to do more to help them
because they talked about having to mass lay off and
an almighty recession caused by COVID and the measures taken
(10:28):
to combat OVID. So it's wise. It may be wise
after the event. At the time, we were pretty damn
pleased that there were subsidies to keep people employed and
people with incomes and industry are going rather than going bankrupt.
So you want to think of it in.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
That context, Jordan, did you want to correct me, Well,
we're not spending at the very height of COVID. That
would be guilding the lily. But the point is that
the rest of the world pulled back a lot harder.
We're knowing near where we were pre pre COVID. And
the fact is that, you know, the market is sending
(11:04):
a signal right now. A ten year bond yield is
higher than the UK. The colaxons are flashing, the government
gets grief, a so called cut suspending it's actually only
slowed down the growth. You know, the government was elected
to pull back and it actually isn't.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Guys. It is lovely to chat to the pair of you.
Thank you so much, Phil GoF Jordan Williams a huddle.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to
News Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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