September 17, 2025 • 10 mins
Tonight on the Huddle, political commentator and lawyer Liam Hehir and Jack Tame from ZB's Saturday Mornings and Q&A joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
There's another case of a judge ordering police to give back a gang member's patch. Is there a loophole that needs fixing here?
Rawiri Waititi made headlines after he only answered questions in te reo Māori in Parliament. What do we make of this?
Should we make it easier for overseas born kids with Māori heritage to gain citizenship?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Find your one of a kind on the Huddle with
us The Seeing We have Liam here, political commentator, also
lawyer and Jack Tame host a Q and A and
Saturday Mornings on z B. Hello you two, Liam, So,
as a lawyer, what do you reckon? Should we destroy
this personal property or leave open the option to give
it back?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
We shouldn't destroy it unless the government's got the express
power to do so. Like I'm not against the gang
Patch band, I'm also often very critical of the courts
overtpping their bounds. But if the law, it's a statute,
says that the crime is wearing it in public and
it doesn't mandate that we destroyed after it be sees. Actually,
(00:42):
it seems like the judge that she just made a
ruling in accordance with the actual law as written, and
if there's a problem with that, the law needs to
be updated and changed. The judge is not allowed this
person so weird gang patch child?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
But what do you reckon? Liam? Do we update the
law to destroy something like this?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Well, look, I'm not really sure that that the squeez
woul be worth the juice to be honest with you,
I mean, you know, like, so what he's got it now,
he can't the mischief as wearing it in public. He
can't wear it in public. He's not allowed to wear
it in public as you say he can. He can
stitch it on his bathroobe and wear it around the
house for or I care. It's actually the law is
not to be there to be redate public behavior, not
(01:22):
behaved behind closed dollars.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Jack, Yeah, I agree. I mean, if they wanted the
patch to be destroyed every time it was worn in public,
then they did have the option as lawmakers to express
that in the statue, and they were told yeah, yeah,
and they chose not to, which means the judge has
the option of discretion, which means you can exercise that
(01:44):
discression and it doesn't get destroyed. I mean, that being said,
this whole law is supposed to dissuade gang members from
wearing their gang insignia in public, and I have to say,
as someone who was pretty skeptical about whether or not
this would work, I think it's been extremely effect so far.
But that being said, would updating the law to mandate
(02:05):
the destruction of gang patches have a meaningful difference on
gang behaviors as it stands, I'm not sure it really would.
Is there anyone who would have worn it in public
now who will say, actually, now that my patch is
going to be destroyed. If I'm called in tublic, I
won't simply be charged with wearing it in public. It
will also be destroyed. That's going to be the difference
in the wearing it in public. I don't think that.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
It's like when you when your teacher took away your frisbee,
you know, and when you're playing with the frisbee class
and you could give it at the end of the day.
You know, that's the problem, isn't frisbee? Is the problem is?
You know, is what happened?
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Then?
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Well it is? That is what happens.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
It is what happened to you.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Well, I've got the phys taken away from me. Yeah.
Once it's a very specific example.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I'm the reason I'm fascinated by this. I never
threw a frisbee in class. It wouldn't occur to me
that would be something that I would be.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Able to and would have would have loved to have.
Alternatively used an anecdote as twelve as a patch member
of there.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Are things you can do in class that you can
get away with, you know, like texting on your phone maybe,
I don't know, sticking, sticking a pen in somebody's pocket,
throwing a frisbee. You're gonna get busted, mate, You now
frisbee back at the end of the day. Yeah, well,
I suppose Listen, Jack, what do you think about the
Shannon Helbert, He's complained that Rawdi White is he should
answer all questions in Maori and in English, because if
(03:28):
he just answers in Marti, he's creating an exclusive bunch
of Maori.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Well, I I have kind of evolved in my thinking
a little bit over over the years, and that I
think tedl Maori is a tonga. I think it's really
really valuable. I think it's a treasure in New Zealand.
That being said, I don't think you bring anyone along
if you make them feel excluded, and if you use
(03:53):
language in a way that excludes people, I using it
without translating it, I think that explicitly excludes people. And
I think a lot of to party Marti's actions at
the moment can be best described as appealing to their
core base and they're extremely effective at doing that. But
my big critique when it comes to the party is
I think if they're defined themselves in a position to
(04:15):
govern to affect the change that they actually want to make,
then at some point I think that strategy is going
to have to change. And I don't think those Jacks
in a.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Way hasn't in a way, hasn't Shannon actually hit on
the very thing that the Maori Party is trying to do,
which is that they are really you'd have to say,
judging by their actions, that there is an elite group
of mary as far as they're concerned in that, and
I don't think they want to bring people with them.
They are doing enough in them thing.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Well look, look, I mean, I just don't think there's
one view in how Mardi necessarily and I certainly think
that the way that to party Maori have designed all
of their messaging and all of their reach out on
social media has been extremely effective and connecting with people
who feel really energized by the kind of collective view
of mardydom. And yeah, I can see how for some
(05:04):
people that would feel exclusionary, but to my core point,
like the problem is if they isolate themselves from labor
much further, I just cannot see how the Party Mardi
is going to be able to turn all of this
energy and momentum that they've built over the last few
years very impressively into actually affecting the change that they
say is so important.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, I'm not even sure that they want.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
The huddle with New Zealand Southby's International Realty the global
leader in luxury real estate.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Right back with the huddle lim here and Jack same Liam,
what do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Look, there are two ways to look at this, and
the first is is that English is the vernacular language
of New Zealand, right and it is the language of
the people. It's a lingua francla. So if you are
in government, to refuse to answer in English is actually
putting the bird to the whole the country. But the
second aspect of it is that he's not in government.
(05:57):
He isn't actually in government. He is he's only an MP.
He's got constituents. But it does mean that, you know,
there is there's a bit more scope and there's a
bit more room to make points because he's only accountable
to his own constituents. And I actually think the politics
of it from just not necessarily from a coalition perspective,
but just from a TPM perspective. The politics of it
(06:19):
are smart because he's going to get in the headlines more.
He's going to he's going to wrestle fore others more.
He's going to increase the profile of his party more
by pulling stunts like this as opposed to actually answering
the questions. If he just answered the questions, we wouldn't
be talking about it, probably wouldn't have made the news.
But but but he but by doing this, he has
made himself a story that's that's probably smart politics, probably
(06:43):
not great for the party in terms of endearing itself
to the whole of the country, but that's not his
aim and and and he's not he's not a government
MP minister, though he's got a bit more rope.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
This is like just a fundamental point and it's one
that you can apply to so much into Paki Marti's
actions of the last Cup of the years. I mean,
regardless of what you think as a party, what you
think of their policies, they have been extremely effective in
opposition and capturing headlines and you know, action act stunts
even that absolutely and endear them to their own constituents
(07:16):
and supporters. It doesn't necessarily build a huge consensus across
the entire elector. When it comes to building building support
and maintaining support with their own supporters have been incredibly
effect What we've.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Seen over the last sort of six years of politics
and the Zeeland is that if you're a small party,
your voters will reward your bad behavior. You know that
whenever the Greens have a scandal, they only go up
in the polls. You know, whenever in the zero first
or actor bad coalition partners they go up in the polls.
So I think small parties in New Zealand have cracked
the code to survival, which is the means of perpetual
(07:49):
bad boys.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, fair point. Now on an adjacent subject, Jack, what
do you make of the argument that anybody who has
Malory descent should be able to automatically claim citizenship.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Yeah, I think it's going to be unrealistic. It's not
to say that I think there should be a blanket
exclusionary rule like I think Keisha Castle Hughes example, is
a good example of someone who I think has enduring
ties like that might be a good A good the
artistic or measure by which to test people's relationship. But
also there are consequences like if you if you or
(08:23):
your you know, or your parents or grandparents decide to
leave New Zealand and you're born elsewhere, and then another
generations born elsewhere. Alfinitely there are consequences to those decisions.
And I think, you know, I can't see you're being
widespread political support for this, except to say that maybe
a kind of enduring ties link could be applied to
(08:44):
all people of New Zealand heritage overseas.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I mean, Liam, isn't it simply that if we do
this for anyone who's of Mari descent, you do it
for everybody of New Zealand descent, and then it just
gets ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, it's not fully unprecedent when it comes to ethnic groups.
And you know, and in Israel, as an example, we
have the right of return. And I know that in
Hungary they sort of extend quite a lot of rights
to you know, ethnic Hungarians and sort of neighboring countries,
including the right to move back to Hungary. But at
(09:17):
the end of the day, that's you know, citizenship is
not a racial construct. In New Zealand. You know, we
don't award citizenship by race, and there's just no way
that you can move off that paradigm, off that sort
of idea that we're not an ethno state, that we're
a civic country first and foremost, and accommodate this. You
just can't. So while I can understand, I mean, who
(09:38):
wouldn't want to be a New Zealand citizen, especially if
you've got an ethnic identity that's tied back to the place,
but the same you know, I can't get Irish ship.
At some point you're just going to say the connection
is too remote.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, fair point. Hey guys, it's been lovely to chat,
do you. Thank you so much. Enjoy your evening, Jack
Tame Liam here a huddle.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, Listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm week or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Find your one of a kind on the Huddle with
us The Seeing We have Liam here, political commentator, also
lawyer and Jack Tame host a Q and A and
Saturday Mornings on z B. Hello you two, Liam, So,
as a lawyer, what do you reckon? Should we destroy
this personal property or leave open the option to give
it back?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
We shouldn't destroy it unless the government's got the express
power to do so. Like I'm not against the gang
Patch band, I'm also often very critical of the courts
overtpping their bounds. But if the law, it's a statute,
says that the crime is wearing it in public and
it doesn't mandate that we destroyed after it be sees. Actually,
(00:42):
it seems like the judge that she just made a
ruling in accordance with the actual law as written, and
if there's a problem with that, the law needs to
be updated and changed. The judge is not allowed this
person so weird gang patch child?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
But what do you reckon? Liam? Do we update the
law to destroy something like this?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Well, look, I'm not really sure that that the squeez
woul be worth the juice to be honest with you,
I mean, you know, like, so what he's got it now,
he can't the mischief as wearing it in public. He
can't wear it in public. He's not allowed to wear
it in public as you say he can. He can
stitch it on his bathroobe and wear it around the
house for or I care. It's actually the law is
not to be there to be redate public behavior, not
(01:22):
behaved behind closed dollars.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Jack, Yeah, I agree. I mean, if they wanted the
patch to be destroyed every time it was worn in public,
then they did have the option as lawmakers to express
that in the statue, and they were told yeah, yeah,
and they chose not to, which means the judge has
the option of discretion, which means you can exercise that
(01:44):
discression and it doesn't get destroyed. I mean, that being said,
this whole law is supposed to dissuade gang members from
wearing their gang insignia in public, and I have to say,
as someone who was pretty skeptical about whether or not
this would work, I think it's been extremely effect so far.
But that being said, would updating the law to mandate
(02:05):
the destruction of gang patches have a meaningful difference on
gang behaviors as it stands, I'm not sure it really would.
Is there anyone who would have worn it in public
now who will say, actually, now that my patch is
going to be destroyed. If I'm called in tublic, I
won't simply be charged with wearing it in public. It
will also be destroyed. That's going to be the difference
in the wearing it in public. I don't think that.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
It's like when you when your teacher took away your frisbee,
you know, and when you're playing with the frisbee class
and you could give it at the end of the day.
You know, that's the problem, isn't frisbee? Is the problem is?
You know, is what happened?
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Then?
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Well it is? That is what happens.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
It is what happened to you.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Well, I've got the phys taken away from me. Yeah.
Once it's a very specific example.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I'm the reason I'm fascinated by this. I never
threw a frisbee in class. It wouldn't occur to me
that would be something that I would be.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Able to and would have would have loved to have.
Alternatively used an anecdote as twelve as a patch member
of there.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Are things you can do in class that you can
get away with, you know, like texting on your phone maybe,
I don't know, sticking, sticking a pen in somebody's pocket,
throwing a frisbee. You're gonna get busted, mate, You now
frisbee back at the end of the day. Yeah, well,
I suppose Listen, Jack, what do you think about the
Shannon Helbert, He's complained that Rawdi White is he should
answer all questions in Maori and in English, because if
(03:28):
he just answers in Marti, he's creating an exclusive bunch
of Maori.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Well, I I have kind of evolved in my thinking
a little bit over over the years, and that I
think tedl Maori is a tonga. I think it's really
really valuable. I think it's a treasure in New Zealand.
That being said, I don't think you bring anyone along
if you make them feel excluded, and if you use
(03:53):
language in a way that excludes people, I using it
without translating it, I think that explicitly excludes people. And
I think a lot of to party Marti's actions at
the moment can be best described as appealing to their
core base and they're extremely effective at doing that. But
my big critique when it comes to the party is
I think if they're defined themselves in a position to
(04:15):
govern to affect the change that they actually want to make,
then at some point I think that strategy is going
to have to change. And I don't think those Jacks
in a.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Way hasn't in a way, hasn't Shannon actually hit on
the very thing that the Maori Party is trying to do,
which is that they are really you'd have to say,
judging by their actions, that there is an elite group
of mary as far as they're concerned in that, and
I don't think they want to bring people with them.
They are doing enough in them thing.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Well look, look, I mean, I just don't think there's
one view in how Mardi necessarily and I certainly think
that the way that to party Maori have designed all
of their messaging and all of their reach out on
social media has been extremely effective and connecting with people
who feel really energized by the kind of collective view
of mardydom. And yeah, I can see how for some
(05:04):
people that would feel exclusionary, but to my core point,
like the problem is if they isolate themselves from labor
much further, I just cannot see how the Party Mardi
is going to be able to turn all of this
energy and momentum that they've built over the last few
years very impressively into actually affecting the change that they
say is so important.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, I'm not even sure that they want.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
The huddle with New Zealand Southby's International Realty the global
leader in luxury real estate.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Right back with the huddle lim here and Jack same Liam,
what do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Look, there are two ways to look at this, and
the first is is that English is the vernacular language
of New Zealand, right and it is the language of
the people. It's a lingua francla. So if you are
in government, to refuse to answer in English is actually
putting the bird to the whole the country. But the
second aspect of it is that he's not in government.
(05:57):
He isn't actually in government. He is he's only an MP.
He's got constituents. But it does mean that, you know,
there is there's a bit more scope and there's a
bit more room to make points because he's only accountable
to his own constituents. And I actually think the politics
of it from just not necessarily from a coalition perspective,
but just from a TPM perspective. The politics of it
(06:19):
are smart because he's going to get in the headlines more.
He's going to he's going to wrestle fore others more.
He's going to increase the profile of his party more
by pulling stunts like this as opposed to actually answering
the questions. If he just answered the questions, we wouldn't
be talking about it, probably wouldn't have made the news.
But but but he but by doing this, he has
made himself a story that's that's probably smart politics, probably
(06:43):
not great for the party in terms of endearing itself
to the whole of the country, but that's not his
aim and and and he's not he's not a government
MP minister, though he's got a bit more rope.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
This is like just a fundamental point and it's one
that you can apply to so much into Paki Marti's
actions of the last Cup of the years. I mean,
regardless of what you think as a party, what you
think of their policies, they have been extremely effective in
opposition and capturing headlines and you know, action act stunts
even that absolutely and endear them to their own constituents
(07:16):
and supporters. It doesn't necessarily build a huge consensus across
the entire elector. When it comes to building building support
and maintaining support with their own supporters have been incredibly
effect What we've.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Seen over the last sort of six years of politics
and the Zeeland is that if you're a small party,
your voters will reward your bad behavior. You know that
whenever the Greens have a scandal, they only go up
in the polls. You know, whenever in the zero first
or actor bad coalition partners they go up in the polls.
So I think small parties in New Zealand have cracked
the code to survival, which is the means of perpetual
(07:49):
bad boys.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, fair point. Now on an adjacent subject, Jack, what
do you make of the argument that anybody who has
Malory descent should be able to automatically claim citizenship.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Yeah, I think it's going to be unrealistic. It's not
to say that I think there should be a blanket
exclusionary rule like I think Keisha Castle Hughes example, is
a good example of someone who I think has enduring
ties like that might be a good A good the
artistic or measure by which to test people's relationship. But
also there are consequences like if you if you or
(08:23):
your you know, or your parents or grandparents decide to
leave New Zealand and you're born elsewhere, and then another
generations born elsewhere. Alfinitely there are consequences to those decisions.
And I think, you know, I can't see you're being
widespread political support for this, except to say that maybe
a kind of enduring ties link could be applied to
(08:44):
all people of New Zealand heritage overseas.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I mean, Liam, isn't it simply that if we do
this for anyone who's of Mari descent, you do it
for everybody of New Zealand descent, and then it just
gets ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, it's not fully unprecedent when it comes to ethnic groups.
And you know, and in Israel, as an example, we
have the right of return. And I know that in
Hungary they sort of extend quite a lot of rights
to you know, ethnic Hungarians and sort of neighboring countries,
including the right to move back to Hungary. But at
(09:17):
the end of the day, that's you know, citizenship is
not a racial construct. In New Zealand. You know, we
don't award citizenship by race, and there's just no way
that you can move off that paradigm, off that sort
of idea that we're not an ethno state, that we're
a civic country first and foremost, and accommodate this. You
just can't. So while I can understand, I mean, who
(09:38):
wouldn't want to be a New Zealand citizen, especially if
you've got an ethnic identity that's tied back to the place,
but the same you know, I can't get Irish ship.
At some point you're just going to say the connection
is too remote.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, fair point. Hey guys, it's been lovely to chat,
do you. Thank you so much. Enjoy your evening, Jack
Tame Liam here a huddle.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, Listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm week or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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