July 16, 2025 • 9 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Jack Tame from ZB's Saturday Mornings and Q&A and Jordan Williams from the Taxpayers' Union joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Australia seems to have turned the corner on teenage vaping, with rates among young people dropping. Do we need to follow suit and crack down on vaping?
Members of Local Government NZ have voted in favour of strong opposition to a rates cap. What do we make of this?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
By the way, the numbers this is from the Health
Ministrove in Australia fell from seventeen and a half percent
this is for young people at the start of twenty
twenty three to fourteen point six percent in April. On
the Huddle Tonight, Jordan Williams, whose Taxpayers Union, and Jack Taym,
host of Q and A and Saturday mornings on News Talks,
you'd be good after good evening, gentlemen. Helloh, there we do.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Doesn't mean that it's concept too.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Guys. I've totally screwed the phones up. But you're both
here now. Good evening with you. Right to have you
guys on. Hey, let's start with vaping. Jordan, do you
think that young people if we because over in Australia
they do the pharmacy. You basically can't go to a dairy,
can't go to service station. You're going to go to
a pharmacy to get a vape. Do you think there
(00:44):
would be enough to put people off here?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Well, it does. Becky was banging on everything she said
except one thing. She said that she clearly wasn't aware
of New Zealand's smoking rates. That we are going to
achieve the smoke the smoke tras the smoke Free targetal
wrong that smoking rates aren't higher. In fact, here as
one of the only countries in the Western world where
(01:06):
the latest start is that more people are smoking, and
the reason for that is that they have made vaping
so difficult. The thing that I thought was fascinating that
interview is she said that use vaping rates were fifteen
percent despite all those restrictions. Well, New Zealand, despite having
a much looser vaping or regulated but much more a
(01:27):
valuable vaping regime, we've each got the best of both.
It's dramatically reduced our smoking rates, which is great. And
similarly here we've also had peak in age vaping. According
to ASH, which is the sort of sane anti smoking brigade,
twenty twenty two, it was fourteen percent, it's now down
(01:48):
to eight percent, and we're also continuing to reduce the
people actually on the harmful duarries. So I just Australia
is kind of the worst of all them. That they've
restricted vaping so much people have stayed on. The diaries
are really given into the beginning to town lobbyists, whereas
New Zealand seems to be in the balance right, that
we're both reducing teenage vapings but keeping me at the
(02:11):
availability for adults to make the switch.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, it never really took off vaping there like it
did here because that the Aussies love a love a
dart jack.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, they love to hone on a couple of langers famously. Yeah,
it's funny. I was in Sydney for New Years and
I remember like walking through central Sydney in the kind
of nightclub districts and being like, something feels something feels
slightly different here, Like something feels slightly off. What is it?
And I couldn't put my finger on it? And then
I realized it just felt like there were way fewer
(02:42):
people vaping and perhaps more people smoking in Australia. And
Jordan's quite right. I think if you look at the
eighteen to twenty four year old smoking rates in New
Zealand versus Australia, I think they're almost twice as high
in Australia as they are in New Zealand. So there is, like,
you know, a kind of meaningful difference there. But I
suppose like that the question really is how many people
(03:04):
are being dissuaded from smoking by having relatively loose vaping rules,
and that is the tricky balance to strike. I mean,
if if Australia is dissuading young people from from taking
up the vapes, that's fantastic, But ultimately, if it means
a few more percentage of young people decide to smoke
instead in the neat effects could be could be worse.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Who's got the baby?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
We're talking about youth vaping and all of a sudden
he's got excited, so we're working hard.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I didn't know because Jordan, you've got a young one.
Ever knew. I wasn't quite sure which of you it
would be, But.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, this is the I think this isn't the first
time that Jack said the babe in the background on
this huddle. I think he must think Evalue's being informed.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You know, he's getting involved.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Really well, he shouldn't be listening to you, Jack.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I got one more stat for you, that's that I
had written, and this just blows my mind. The use
daily smoke rate in Australia is eight point three percent.
Ours is one point two, So I get. I mean,
none of us want teenagers beyond the vapes, but that's
a big difference. Intan You'd much rather someone picking up
(04:13):
a vape than picking up a cancer stick.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, you'd rather have a kid on this side of
the testment than that one on the smoke issue of
smoking the huddle tonight, Jordan Williams and Jack Tame and
let's hear from Simon Watts outside the Local government conference
in christs today. What this place as fast as possible.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
We're aiming to have that all decided by the definitely
before Christmas.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
We can go faster, we will. Jordan, you were there.
He's talking about a rates cap. Is this them announcing
that they are going to do it?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
You are concerned when Simon Watts came out a few
weeks ago and said, lo, we've green with the Taxpayers
Union that you know, we need some sort of rape cap.
Wraps out are out of control. And these figures out
earlier this week that the average rates in the last
three years gone up by more than a third, three
times a level of inflation. Clearly something to be done.
Our concern was is that if you set the rates
(05:05):
cap in a few years time, what's going to happen
as councilors are going to ramp up the rates in
the meantime so very significantly. We're actually at our event.
He was speaking in front of our enormous semi truck
that says cap rates now he's got the now. But
this is very significant. And there was a whole series
of announcements yesterday and a new bill that picks up
(05:26):
a number of really good policy suggestions that the taxpayer
has been making for New years, we making for Donkeys years.
I think we're actually now we're a local government minister
who really gets it and is actually saying to local government, look,
enough is enough. We've got to get the costs under control.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
So he actually said we're going to do it, and
we're going to do it. We'll have a plan by Christmas.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yeah, there's still some potential. I mean I've just been
today with the local government leaders at the very woke
our GMZ conference and some of them just look at
you like a like a cat's bottom and don't want
to engage, and then not that it's actually a very
you know, they come and tap me on the shoulder
and say I can't be seeing with you, but keep
(06:08):
up the good work, and then run away. But the
key thing is is that there seems to now what
our gems you'd want to do with some sort of
fudge between core spending and non core spending and only
cap the non core part. I think it actually be
much cleaner, and this is what the government's going away
to work on, much cleaner, to say, lock anything that
is not infrastructure, anything that is not CAPEX, should be capped. Otherwise,
(06:33):
what we risk is games between what is core and
what is non for it, because every rate payer I
talked to only wants to be paying for core services.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Jack, do you think it's I mean, whether it's core
or non core or a combination of both. Is it
a good idea hardcore?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I think yeah. My view isn't as strong as Jordan's
on this, but I do think that if they go
down this path, carving out an allowance so that councils
have a kind of different budgetary line for infrastructure or
CAPEX is absolutely vital because of course, like if you
if you analyze the water infrastructure at different councils across
the country, you have massive disparity. Some councils have managed
(07:12):
their assets really really well over the last few decades.
Some councils haven't and thus faced a much more significant
and you know, much more significant investment in their future
to make sure that the water is up to scratch
and meet the various regulations under the new Water Regulator.
So I think that is an absolutely vital part of
the equation. One thing I would would just say is that,
you know, it's curious to think about this governments, the
(07:33):
haste with which they sought to quote, restore democracy to Toadunger.
You remember they ended the commissioners and had elections in Todunga,
so Tota you could have it city council back again.
And I think there's an argument to be made a
bit of a philosophical argument that if you truly believe
in local democracy, well elite officials should be able to
make decisions about how much they charge and what they
(07:56):
spend that money on. And that I agree.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
It is, you know, in one breath to say you
believe in local democracy and then in the next to
say we're going to cap rates. Well, I don't know
that that's necessarily a philosophically consistent.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Position, because if people didn't want amount.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
There's two things on this. Number one is we're part
of that democratic reforms. We want recall elections, but two
is that it's not a total cap on rates per se.
It's saying that if council wants to go above inflation,
it should go to the people in local referenda. The
Hawks Way Regional Council used to often go to local
referenda for big decisions. This should be no different to
(08:38):
the contrary this. This is about local democracy, but it's
putting the control in voter's hands, not this Euchin's end world,
where it is undemocra undemocratic to put apparently more control
on voters' hands.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, I mean that that. The argument against that is
that voters have an opportunity every three years to make
that decision, and that you're going to be holding refere
interrupt the wires of otherwise.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Clearly that's not working when every year promises are being
broken and rates are going up by thirty four and
a half percent in the last three.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Years, and so those elitted officials should be held to
account by the voters who put them there.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, and no one's voting, so clearly people don't care.
Would I guess be the way to end that argument. Guys,
Thank you very much for coming on this evening. Jordan
Williams from the Taxpayers Union and Jack Tame from here
at News talks'd B and Q and A.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to
News Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
By the way, the numbers this is from the Health
Ministrove in Australia fell from seventeen and a half percent
this is for young people at the start of twenty
twenty three to fourteen point six percent in April. On
the Huddle Tonight, Jordan Williams, whose Taxpayers Union, and Jack Taym,
host of Q and A and Saturday mornings on News Talks,
you'd be good after good evening, gentlemen. Helloh, there we do.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Doesn't mean that it's concept too.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Guys. I've totally screwed the phones up. But you're both
here now. Good evening with you. Right to have you
guys on. Hey, let's start with vaping. Jordan, do you
think that young people if we because over in Australia
they do the pharmacy. You basically can't go to a dairy,
can't go to service station. You're going to go to
a pharmacy to get a vape. Do you think there
(00:44):
would be enough to put people off here?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Well, it does. Becky was banging on everything she said
except one thing. She said that she clearly wasn't aware
of New Zealand's smoking rates. That we are going to
achieve the smoke the smoke tras the smoke Free targetal
wrong that smoking rates aren't higher. In fact, here as
one of the only countries in the Western world where
(01:06):
the latest start is that more people are smoking, and
the reason for that is that they have made vaping
so difficult. The thing that I thought was fascinating that
interview is she said that use vaping rates were fifteen
percent despite all those restrictions. Well, New Zealand, despite having
a much looser vaping or regulated but much more a
(01:27):
valuable vaping regime, we've each got the best of both.
It's dramatically reduced our smoking rates, which is great. And
similarly here we've also had peak in age vaping. According
to ASH, which is the sort of sane anti smoking brigade,
twenty twenty two, it was fourteen percent, it's now down
(01:48):
to eight percent, and we're also continuing to reduce the
people actually on the harmful duarries. So I just Australia
is kind of the worst of all them. That they've
restricted vaping so much people have stayed on. The diaries
are really given into the beginning to town lobbyists, whereas
New Zealand seems to be in the balance right, that
we're both reducing teenage vapings but keeping me at the
(02:11):
availability for adults to make the switch.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, it never really took off vaping there like it
did here because that the Aussies love a love a
dart jack.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, they love to hone on a couple of langers famously. Yeah,
it's funny. I was in Sydney for New Years and
I remember like walking through central Sydney in the kind
of nightclub districts and being like, something feels something feels
slightly different here, Like something feels slightly off. What is it?
And I couldn't put my finger on it? And then
I realized it just felt like there were way fewer
(02:42):
people vaping and perhaps more people smoking in Australia. And
Jordan's quite right. I think if you look at the
eighteen to twenty four year old smoking rates in New
Zealand versus Australia, I think they're almost twice as high
in Australia as they are in New Zealand. So there is, like,
you know, a kind of meaningful difference there. But I
suppose like that the question really is how many people
(03:04):
are being dissuaded from smoking by having relatively loose vaping rules,
and that is the tricky balance to strike. I mean,
if if Australia is dissuading young people from from taking
up the vapes, that's fantastic, But ultimately, if it means
a few more percentage of young people decide to smoke
instead in the neat effects could be could be worse.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Who's got the baby?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
We're talking about youth vaping and all of a sudden
he's got excited, so we're working hard.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I didn't know because Jordan, you've got a young one.
Ever knew. I wasn't quite sure which of you it
would be, But.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, this is the I think this isn't the first
time that Jack said the babe in the background on
this huddle. I think he must think Evalue's being informed.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You know, he's getting involved.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Really well, he shouldn't be listening to you, Jack.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I got one more stat for you, that's that I
had written, and this just blows my mind. The use
daily smoke rate in Australia is eight point three percent.
Ours is one point two, So I get. I mean,
none of us want teenagers beyond the vapes, but that's
a big difference. Intan You'd much rather someone picking up
(04:13):
a vape than picking up a cancer stick.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, you'd rather have a kid on this side of
the testment than that one on the smoke issue of
smoking the huddle tonight, Jordan Williams and Jack Tame and
let's hear from Simon Watts outside the Local government conference
in christs today. What this place as fast as possible.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
We're aiming to have that all decided by the definitely
before Christmas.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
We can go faster, we will. Jordan, you were there.
He's talking about a rates cap. Is this them announcing
that they are going to do it?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
You are concerned when Simon Watts came out a few
weeks ago and said, lo, we've green with the Taxpayers
Union that you know, we need some sort of rape cap.
Wraps out are out of control. And these figures out
earlier this week that the average rates in the last
three years gone up by more than a third, three
times a level of inflation. Clearly something to be done.
Our concern was is that if you set the rates
(05:05):
cap in a few years time, what's going to happen
as councilors are going to ramp up the rates in
the meantime so very significantly. We're actually at our event.
He was speaking in front of our enormous semi truck
that says cap rates now he's got the now. But
this is very significant. And there was a whole series
of announcements yesterday and a new bill that picks up
(05:26):
a number of really good policy suggestions that the taxpayer
has been making for New years, we making for Donkeys years.
I think we're actually now we're a local government minister
who really gets it and is actually saying to local government, look,
enough is enough. We've got to get the costs under control.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
So he actually said we're going to do it, and
we're going to do it. We'll have a plan by Christmas.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yeah, there's still some potential. I mean I've just been
today with the local government leaders at the very woke
our GMZ conference and some of them just look at
you like a like a cat's bottom and don't want
to engage, and then not that it's actually a very
you know, they come and tap me on the shoulder
and say I can't be seeing with you, but keep
(06:08):
up the good work, and then run away. But the
key thing is is that there seems to now what
our gems you'd want to do with some sort of
fudge between core spending and non core spending and only
cap the non core part. I think it actually be
much cleaner, and this is what the government's going away
to work on, much cleaner, to say, lock anything that
is not infrastructure, anything that is not CAPEX, should be capped. Otherwise,
(06:33):
what we risk is games between what is core and
what is non for it, because every rate payer I
talked to only wants to be paying for core services.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Jack, do you think it's I mean, whether it's core
or non core or a combination of both. Is it
a good idea hardcore?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I think yeah. My view isn't as strong as Jordan's
on this, but I do think that if they go
down this path, carving out an allowance so that councils
have a kind of different budgetary line for infrastructure or
CAPEX is absolutely vital because of course, like if you
if you analyze the water infrastructure at different councils across
the country, you have massive disparity. Some councils have managed
(07:12):
their assets really really well over the last few decades.
Some councils haven't and thus faced a much more significant
and you know, much more significant investment in their future
to make sure that the water is up to scratch
and meet the various regulations under the new Water Regulator.
So I think that is an absolutely vital part of
the equation. One thing I would would just say is that,
you know, it's curious to think about this governments, the
(07:33):
haste with which they sought to quote, restore democracy to Toadunger.
You remember they ended the commissioners and had elections in Todunga,
so Tota you could have it city council back again.
And I think there's an argument to be made a
bit of a philosophical argument that if you truly believe
in local democracy, well elite officials should be able to
make decisions about how much they charge and what they
(07:56):
spend that money on. And that I agree.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
It is, you know, in one breath to say you
believe in local democracy and then in the next to
say we're going to cap rates. Well, I don't know
that that's necessarily a philosophically consistent.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Position, because if people didn't want amount.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
There's two things on this. Number one is we're part
of that democratic reforms. We want recall elections, but two
is that it's not a total cap on rates per se.
It's saying that if council wants to go above inflation,
it should go to the people in local referenda. The
Hawks Way Regional Council used to often go to local
referenda for big decisions. This should be no different to
(08:38):
the contrary this. This is about local democracy, but it's
putting the control in voter's hands, not this Euchin's end world,
where it is undemocra undemocratic to put apparently more control
on voters' hands.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, I mean that that. The argument against that is
that voters have an opportunity every three years to make
that decision, and that you're going to be holding refere
interrupt the wires of otherwise.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Clearly that's not working when every year promises are being
broken and rates are going up by thirty four and
a half percent in the last three.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Years, and so those elitted officials should be held to
account by the voters who put them there.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, and no one's voting, so clearly people don't care.
Would I guess be the way to end that argument. Guys,
Thank you very much for coming on this evening. Jordan
Williams from the Taxpayers Union and Jack Tame from here
at News talks'd B and Q and A.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to
News Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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