August 12, 2025 • 9 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, former Green MP Gareth Hughes and Thomas Scrimgeour from the Maxim Institute joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Minister Shane Jones is looking into rationing gas - do we think this is a realistic idea?
Do we need to recognise the state of Palestine now - or is the Government right to wait?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Unique Homes
Uniquely for you.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Coming up twenty away from six and on the huddle
with us we have Gareth Hughes, director of the Well
Being Economy Alliance out here at Allay, former Green MP
obviously and Thomas Scrimser of the Maxim Institute. Hire you
two you Gareth. You see Shane Jones is considering rationing
what gas we've got left. I mean that sounds desperate,
doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Well, it's a pretty odd thing for a government ministers
to say. I mean, it's quite incredible to be in
the situation. Look quite agree with Shane. Probably not for
the reason he thinks so we should be rationing it
because it's a fossil fuel, But it's ridiculous that we're
in this situation where businesses are shutting down, people are
potentially going out of work because of the problem, which
(00:44):
has been a long time in the making.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Is it a surprise to you, Garres No, it's not.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
I mean people have been warning about this for decades
and this is why I think a responsible government would
have acknowledged this is a sunset industry been trying to
look at the most high value, most efficient use of
the gay. Look at a real waste. If we're just
earning this for electricity or using it at our homes,
we'd better.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
To use it.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now, you've got to stop talking. I'm desperate not to
I'm desperate not to get into a fight with you, Thomas.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
More just measure for government. Even you know the previous
labor government have been rolling out of solder panels on people.
We probably wouldn't be in the surf. You're asking for it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
You're asking for it, Thomas, What do you think I mean?
This is I feel like we need to accept there
is no coming back from this. Is there? Like we
we are running out of gas. We have not got
gas coming out. Probably rationing is the only sensible thing
left to do.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Well, Gareth was talking about finding the most high value
and efficient use for the gas we have, which as
you mentioned, is highly limited. But we have a system
for rationing and finding efficient use of resources. It's the
price system. And so I guess my observation is that
if businesses are getting outbids for gas on the open
(01:58):
market against consumers, that's telling us something that the consumers
need for the gas is higher than the businesses now,
Gareth raised, I guess solar panels on the roof of
every house. It's kind of misunderstanding where gas is used
in the electricity generation market. It's used as a peaking
when other sources are unavailable, and so currently the gas
(02:21):
is providing a really important function in the consumer electricity market.
So it's not the future of it, you know, it's
not like we can it's not like we're looking like
we're finding much more gas if we go exploring. But
at the moment it's still pretty crucial.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, Gareth, I need to ask you this question, right
because I just I don't always understand how green heads work.
So is this what you guys wanted? I mean, what
you've got is you have got gas running out and
that's the ideal, but the reality is that we're replacing
it with coal. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
I feel terrible about it. It should not have happened.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
What should have happened instead, though, because this is the
only way that peaking.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Works, well, we should have had a proper just transition
to look after those workers and actually transition. And the
problem is we've got a crazy electricity market that even
you know, I agree with Shane Jones on this point,
the fact that we're deindustrializing because of our super expensive electricity,
where gas is setting up the marginal price the expensive price.
I think successive governments have failed to unlock what is
(03:24):
cheaper electricity. You look around the world, keeper investing in
wind and solar because it's cheaper, but we haven't taken
advantage of that.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
People are investing in wind and solar because they don't
have as much renewable energy as we do. We are
like maxing it out. We're really good on that front, and.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
We should be saving the hydro dams to that peaking
function that Thomas mentioned. But when we're running our system
entirely for profit rather than the public good or actually
delivering cheaper electricity for companies and customers.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Okay, now do you think actually do you know what
I was going to ask you about Palestine? But we
need to take a break and then we're dealing with Palestine.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Have to winds up the huddle with New Zealand Southeby's
International Realty, the Ones for Unmatched Results.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Right back with Thomas Scrimser and Gareth Hughes on the huddle,
Thomas should we recognize the state of Palestine now or
should we take our time?
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Well, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the government to
want to take its time. New Zealand's long express a
desire for a two state solution, but there are some
really key things we have to be clear on if
we're going to recognize a Palestinian state and for it
to be meaningful so as people will be aware. Palestine
as it currently exists, there's in two geographic areas with
(04:35):
two different groups in authority. Gaza, where Israel is waging
its war, is governed by Hamas and has been for
over a decade. The West Bank is ruled by the
Palestinian authority, And like an indispensable part of recognizing a
state is identifying a legitimate government that has a capacity
(04:55):
to enter into relations with other states. If we can't
point to this group and say they we are the
government of this new Palestinian state, recognition doesn't mean a
whole lot. So the question for New Zealand to actually
resolve in our minds is who is this state of
Palestine we will recognize. And because this is the merging
out of a concern for the war in Gaza, how
(05:16):
would recognizing the Palestinian authority as that state actually help
the people on the ground there.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Can you argue with any of that, Gareth.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
No, But the fact is that France, the UK, Canada
and Australia, countries that we would normally be standing alongside,
are prepared to make this step now. Obviously what's happening
in Gaza is horrific and for a country like New Zealand,
it is respect on the world state. This is something
meaningful we could do to be ultimately halting well, it's
(05:46):
actually following through on the long standing policy. Both David
Seymour and Winston Feeders have said it's a case of
when not, If so, why not do it now? Obviously
there's mechanisms in place from the Palestinian Authority to Theation Force,
which the UN has been discussing. I agree with former
Prime Minister Helen Clark. It is humiliating that we're following
(06:07):
behind them and it doesn't look like we're able to
reach a position and the question is will they even
be able to get a consensus position in the cabinet
that's not clear.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
What I'm confused about, Thomas, is how we have landed
with this being the discussion. I mean, we have children
who are starving in Gaza who need food, So why
are we discussing the state of Palestine instead of discussing
how on earth we force Israel to feed these people.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Well, I think it's a reasonable discussion to be having
because at some point the hot war will cease, and
you know, there will be some sort of, if not
an absolute peace, there will be a relenting of military power,
and we have to think what comes next. So it's
perfectly appropriate for us to be having this discussion and
thinking about what institutions can protect the people in Palestine,
(06:55):
both in the West Bank and Gaza, because the status
quo that existed before October seventh wasn't sustainable and wasn't
acceptable to anyone. So we need to be thinking about
what comes next. But we also have to keep in
mind it's simply recognizing a Palestinian state, especially if we
can't identify who has their legitimate authority over that state,
(07:16):
won't actually help people on the ground.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Gareth, do you agree with me that national would be
crazy to roll Luxem Now?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Well, it's a hard one. I mean, look the measure
of the yardstick that Luxon himself has put up is
his management to the economy, and that's clearly not delivering
at the moment. You know, we see factories closing, historic
high unemployment since twenty twenty, you know, tens of thousands
of people are out of work because of the poor
economic condition. So yeah, on his own yard stick, he's
not delivering. It's pretty clear he's one of the weaker
(07:46):
performances performers when you look at his personal polling, this
the polling of the government. I think an uncharitable opinion
would be that, you know, keep him on, keep him
having the blame until conditions turn around. There are some
other performers within the government as well, but it's pretty
rare at this point in the electoral cycle to be
considering a change of the Prime minister so soon after
(08:09):
the election. That books to sign at the Times, and
there's clearly a bit of momentum and a bit of
pressure within the National Party and outside to raise this question.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Are they really considering it, Thomas or I mean, tell
me honestly what you think. Are they really considering it
in the NATS or is this just columnists and viewing
their keyboards.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Well, I don't pretend to understand what's happening on the
inner workings of the National Party. I think it's pretty
unlikely that they'd be taking the knives to him. I
think would be fairly foolish for them to do so,
because even if Luxon is in some sense struggling to
connect with the public at the moment, instability is the
great keller of governments anyway, if people don't believe that
(08:48):
there is a team that is working together. And Luxon
might not be connecting as well with the voters as
he would like, but he is setting up as ministers
to achieve a lot of things. And I think even
you know, Gareth might not be the kind of person
who is a fan of what the government is doing.
He might think they are enacting policies he doesn't like,
but they are moving at pace on the things they
(09:10):
say are important to them. Economic growth has not returned,
but governments have relatively little control about economic growth months
to month, and so they are enacting structural change in
the economy for better or worse.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Guys, it's great to talk to the pair of you.
Thank you so much, Gareth Hughes, Thomas Skrimjar huddle this evening,
it's coming up eight Away from six
Speaker 1 (09:29):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Unique Homes
Uniquely for you.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Coming up twenty away from six and on the huddle
with us we have Gareth Hughes, director of the Well
Being Economy Alliance out here at Allay, former Green MP
obviously and Thomas Scrimser of the Maxim Institute. Hire you
two you Gareth. You see Shane Jones is considering rationing
what gas we've got left. I mean that sounds desperate,
doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Well, it's a pretty odd thing for a government ministers
to say. I mean, it's quite incredible to be in
the situation. Look quite agree with Shane. Probably not for
the reason he thinks so we should be rationing it
because it's a fossil fuel, But it's ridiculous that we're
in this situation where businesses are shutting down, people are
potentially going out of work because of the problem, which
(00:44):
has been a long time in the making.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Is it a surprise to you, Garres No, it's not.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
I mean people have been warning about this for decades
and this is why I think a responsible government would
have acknowledged this is a sunset industry been trying to
look at the most high value, most efficient use of
the gay. Look at a real waste. If we're just
earning this for electricity or using it at our homes,
we'd better.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
To use it.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now, you've got to stop talking. I'm desperate not to
I'm desperate not to get into a fight with you, Thomas.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
More just measure for government. Even you know the previous
labor government have been rolling out of solder panels on people.
We probably wouldn't be in the surf. You're asking for it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
You're asking for it, Thomas, What do you think I mean?
This is I feel like we need to accept there
is no coming back from this. Is there? Like we
we are running out of gas. We have not got
gas coming out. Probably rationing is the only sensible thing
left to do.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Well, Gareth was talking about finding the most high value
and efficient use for the gas we have, which as
you mentioned, is highly limited. But we have a system
for rationing and finding efficient use of resources. It's the
price system. And so I guess my observation is that
if businesses are getting outbids for gas on the open
(01:58):
market against consumers, that's telling us something that the consumers
need for the gas is higher than the businesses now,
Gareth raised, I guess solar panels on the roof of
every house. It's kind of misunderstanding where gas is used
in the electricity generation market. It's used as a peaking
when other sources are unavailable, and so currently the gas
(02:21):
is providing a really important function in the consumer electricity market.
So it's not the future of it, you know, it's
not like we can it's not like we're looking like
we're finding much more gas if we go exploring. But
at the moment it's still pretty crucial.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, Gareth, I need to ask you this question, right
because I just I don't always understand how green heads work.
So is this what you guys wanted? I mean, what
you've got is you have got gas running out and
that's the ideal, but the reality is that we're replacing
it with coal. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
I feel terrible about it. It should not have happened.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
What should have happened instead, though, because this is the
only way that peaking.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Works, well, we should have had a proper just transition
to look after those workers and actually transition. And the
problem is we've got a crazy electricity market that even
you know, I agree with Shane Jones on this point,
the fact that we're deindustrializing because of our super expensive electricity,
where gas is setting up the marginal price the expensive price.
I think successive governments have failed to unlock what is
(03:24):
cheaper electricity. You look around the world, keeper investing in
wind and solar because it's cheaper, but we haven't taken
advantage of that.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
People are investing in wind and solar because they don't
have as much renewable energy as we do. We are
like maxing it out. We're really good on that front, and.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
We should be saving the hydro dams to that peaking
function that Thomas mentioned. But when we're running our system
entirely for profit rather than the public good or actually
delivering cheaper electricity for companies and customers.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Okay, now do you think actually do you know what
I was going to ask you about Palestine? But we
need to take a break and then we're dealing with Palestine.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Have to winds up the huddle with New Zealand Southeby's
International Realty, the Ones for Unmatched Results.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Right back with Thomas Scrimser and Gareth Hughes on the huddle,
Thomas should we recognize the state of Palestine now or
should we take our time?
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Well, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the government to
want to take its time. New Zealand's long express a
desire for a two state solution, but there are some
really key things we have to be clear on if
we're going to recognize a Palestinian state and for it
to be meaningful so as people will be aware. Palestine
as it currently exists, there's in two geographic areas with
(04:35):
two different groups in authority. Gaza, where Israel is waging
its war, is governed by Hamas and has been for
over a decade. The West Bank is ruled by the
Palestinian authority, And like an indispensable part of recognizing a
state is identifying a legitimate government that has a capacity
(04:55):
to enter into relations with other states. If we can't
point to this group and say they we are the
government of this new Palestinian state, recognition doesn't mean a
whole lot. So the question for New Zealand to actually
resolve in our minds is who is this state of
Palestine we will recognize. And because this is the merging
out of a concern for the war in Gaza, how
(05:16):
would recognizing the Palestinian authority as that state actually help
the people on the ground there.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Can you argue with any of that, Gareth.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
No, But the fact is that France, the UK, Canada
and Australia, countries that we would normally be standing alongside,
are prepared to make this step now. Obviously what's happening
in Gaza is horrific and for a country like New Zealand,
it is respect on the world state. This is something
meaningful we could do to be ultimately halting well, it's
(05:46):
actually following through on the long standing policy. Both David
Seymour and Winston Feeders have said it's a case of
when not, If so, why not do it now? Obviously
there's mechanisms in place from the Palestinian Authority to Theation Force,
which the UN has been discussing. I agree with former
Prime Minister Helen Clark. It is humiliating that we're following
(06:07):
behind them and it doesn't look like we're able to
reach a position and the question is will they even
be able to get a consensus position in the cabinet
that's not clear.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
What I'm confused about, Thomas, is how we have landed
with this being the discussion. I mean, we have children
who are starving in Gaza who need food, So why
are we discussing the state of Palestine instead of discussing
how on earth we force Israel to feed these people.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Well, I think it's a reasonable discussion to be having
because at some point the hot war will cease, and
you know, there will be some sort of, if not
an absolute peace, there will be a relenting of military power,
and we have to think what comes next. So it's
perfectly appropriate for us to be having this discussion and
thinking about what institutions can protect the people in Palestine,
(06:55):
both in the West Bank and Gaza, because the status
quo that existed before October seventh wasn't sustainable and wasn't
acceptable to anyone. So we need to be thinking about
what comes next. But we also have to keep in
mind it's simply recognizing a Palestinian state, especially if we
can't identify who has their legitimate authority over that state,
(07:16):
won't actually help people on the ground.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Gareth, do you agree with me that national would be
crazy to roll Luxem Now?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Well, it's a hard one. I mean, look the measure
of the yardstick that Luxon himself has put up is
his management to the economy, and that's clearly not delivering
at the moment. You know, we see factories closing, historic
high unemployment since twenty twenty, you know, tens of thousands
of people are out of work because of the poor
economic condition. So yeah, on his own yard stick, he's
not delivering. It's pretty clear he's one of the weaker
(07:46):
performances performers when you look at his personal polling, this
the polling of the government. I think an uncharitable opinion
would be that, you know, keep him on, keep him
having the blame until conditions turn around. There are some
other performers within the government as well, but it's pretty
rare at this point in the electoral cycle to be
considering a change of the Prime minister so soon after
(08:09):
the election. That books to sign at the Times, and
there's clearly a bit of momentum and a bit of
pressure within the National Party and outside to raise this question.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Are they really considering it, Thomas or I mean, tell
me honestly what you think. Are they really considering it
in the NATS or is this just columnists and viewing
their keyboards.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Well, I don't pretend to understand what's happening on the
inner workings of the National Party. I think it's pretty
unlikely that they'd be taking the knives to him. I
think would be fairly foolish for them to do so,
because even if Luxon is in some sense struggling to
connect with the public at the moment, instability is the
great keller of governments anyway, if people don't believe that
(08:48):
there is a team that is working together. And Luxon
might not be connecting as well with the voters as
he would like, but he is setting up as ministers
to achieve a lot of things. And I think even
you know, Gareth might not be the kind of person
who is a fan of what the government is doing.
He might think they are enacting policies he doesn't like,
but they are moving at pace on the things they
(09:10):
say are important to them. Economic growth has not returned,
but governments have relatively little control about economic growth months
to month, and so they are enacting structural change in
the economy for better or worse.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Guys, it's great to talk to the pair of you.
Thank you so much, Gareth Hughes, Thomas Skrimjar huddle this evening,
it's coming up eight Away from six
Speaker 1 (09:29):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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