June 12, 2025 • 10 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Maxim Institute researcher Thomas Scrimgeour and Infrastructure NZ CEO Nick Leggett joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
The UN has raised the alarm over declining fertility rates, with cost of living and job insecurity being cited as the primary factors behind these changes. How can we fix this? What changes could be made?
Kainga Ora is set to roll out the wool carpets in new state homes. How do we feel about this?
Should Reserve Bank chair Neil Quigley resign because he didn't tell us the truth earlier about why Adrian Orr quit?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Find. You're
one of a kid.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I've got to get you an update on some Trump
related matters. But first of all, let's do the huddle.
We've got Thomas Scrimer of Maximum Institute and Nick Leaget
of Infrastructure New Zealand. Hello you guys.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Hello Nick.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
You've got a lot of kids, haven't you.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Well, yeah, more than you. How many of you got
got four? And it's an interesting conversation, this isn't it
because it's actually I think the reason people don't have
kids is because they start later and often like we're
selfish with our time. I mean, we've got four, so
we're busy. But I can really understand people go, well,
(00:38):
I only want to because they're easy to carry around
and I can still have a bit of a life.
So I think those are the sort of first world
kind of choices. But what we're looking at is massive population.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Before we get there. Before we get there, I'm not
finished talking about you. Does your wife work?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
She works very part time?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And how old has she's going to?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Just gone back to that? Three?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Okay, yeah, okay, So it kind of kind of lends
to my theory because I think what is going on
Nick is not actually so much a financial problem. I
think that and Paul kind of agreed with that. I
actually think that the problem here is women trying to
work while having babies is just too bloody hard, and
so as a result, they limit the number of children.
(01:24):
And your wife came out of the workforce, had for
and now is going back. Would you agree with my theory?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I think there's a lot to that. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Now carry on with what you were going to say
about demography and economics.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Well, I mean what we think about countries like China.
You know, it's projected that China is going to have
a massive population drop, and so it's not just you know,
thinking about ourselves, thinking about our trading partners. It's thinking
that this is going to be a worldwide trend. The
question is, what, if anything, can we actually do about it. Obviously,
(01:56):
being in the infrastructure sector, you know you plan to
build infrastructure that meets growing population needs. And when the
population isn't going to grow or it's it's going to
evolve differently, you have to start asking some long term
questions about where you plan to put your money in
your investments.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Thomas. I agree with Nick, and I think we just
need to accept that this is what the world is like.
This is what the Western world even will bring in migrants.
They will simply start to live like we do as
they become wealthier and more selfish like us. And I
think we just need to reorganize our economies to cope
with the fact that we're just not going to keep
replacing ourselves. Fair or no.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Well, I think it's a reasonably good prediction about what
is likely to happen. I don't know that we should
be complacent or enthusiastic about that. I mean, I don't
know about you, Heather, but many of my favorite people
were babies once.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Humans are good.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
This is this is a cultural challenge we have where
we've so often talked about family and kids in negative ways,
whether it's in conversations about you know, humans effect on
the environment or just the sacrifice of time, as if.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Children are just a burden. Humans are great. I like humans.
I'd like to see more.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But we also have to stop having babies, Thomas, We can't.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
I mean, there is why do we have to stop
having babies? Because I come from a long line of
people who had babies. This is how the world works
here though you know this, you're a mother.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
You can't just the planet can only hold so many
of us. I don't think it's a bad at.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Risk of us having too many babies.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Like you say, we have this demographic collapse warning from
the UN who are the last people to realize this.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Only because economies like this, Thomas, we can totally stop
having that. We can. We can reach a plateau and
we can just pop along with five million if that's
what we want to Why.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Not, Well we can.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
I just don't think it's good to view the world
in terms of decline.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Humans can go forward and grow and that's great.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You don't have any kids though, way, Thomas, you don't
have any kids, do you know?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
But you know the family betting markets are out, but
I think I'm putting the money one of my sister
in laws actually, so don't want to Scales though.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Nick, I don't want to leave Thomas with the impression
that having children is negative. Isn't it a wonderful delight
to have children?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
It's fantastic. I mean, you could do a whole huddle
on you know how great it is to have kids
and what a delight and the joy they are. But
I also reckon New Zealand should plan to grow. I
think we should have a strategy to grow because five
million people, it's okay, it's fine, but actually.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
All migrants then, Nick, are you cool with that?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
That's fine? Yeah, I am cool with that because we've
got to grow and we've got to grow our economy.
And you know, when you look at the impact the
positive impact that migrants have over time on innovation, on
starting businesses, on growing economies, it's really positive. And actually,
I want New Zealand to be welfare and I think
(04:51):
having more people living here, we've got to really plan
that and decide where and how we grow. I think
that's a good thing. So yeah, I'm I'm in favor
of it.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, I look, be honest, I don't mind us growing
ourselves a little bit. I think the others can stop
growing a wee bit. I will take a break, come
back shortly.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Story The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty achieve
extraordinary results with unparallel reach.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Right, you're back with the Huddle Thomas Scrimger and Nick Legett. Now, Thomas,
what do you think of the wool carpets.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
Oh well, I'm in two minds about it.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I heard what you were saying before about Robert Muldoon
coming back subsidizing industries, and I think that's a real concern.
And I would note that the farmers, whenever they're kind
of crying out for New Zealanders to buy New Zealand
made products, they're not buying New Zealand made tractors and
they're not buying New Zealand made fertilizer.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
But here, though, I'm going to.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Annoy you, I'm gonna trust kaying Aura when they say
it's cost neutral. They're building something to own in the
long term, you know, lifetime cost they might come out
Even so, wool carpets are a good product.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Thomas, why would you trust ko on anything.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
I'm an irrepressible optimist, you know.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
English You into them, you know, and they had some
cost blowouts, but no one ever suggested their cost blowouts
were due to buying two higher quality products. The management
it was the cost of land. So if wall is
a good product and they're owning it for the next
I think.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
You're trying to contort your mind into this. So because
you like the wool and remind me, remind me to
never trust you on anything to do with finances. Again.
If this is how gullible you are, Nick, what do
you think.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I have a real problem with political decrees driving what's
best where it comes to operational matters. It's how we
get ourselves into problems in this country. Look, once again,
I'll go back to infrastructure, because you know, do you
want politicians deciding where things go and how things are built? No,
(06:47):
you don't. You want politicians to set the broad agenda,
the themes, and you want them to tick off the money.
But actually you want experts to work in the middle.
And I just think that this stuff needs to be
about the judgment of people who know best, those who
build and then manage these properties, and understanding how tenants,
you know, how we're in Errika is. So I think
(07:12):
we should trust people. I think you know. And I
want to say, get politicians out of day to day
operations and directing proceedings. That's not what they're there for.
We need to get back to some traditional governance versus management.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Could not agree with you more, Thomas, Have you ever
tried to clean a wool carpet when somebody spills something
on it.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
I have not, Heather.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I just want to say, it's not as easy as
cleaning a nylon carpet. And I don't know if you
know what the inside of State House sometimes looks like.
But a nylon carpet's a good thing.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Now.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Thomas thoughts on Neil Quigley and whether he should retain
his job after all the porkies he told.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
And I think it's pretty precarious at the moment. Like
government always relies on trust, but the Reserve Bank especially
so when they do their announcements about interest rates and stuff,
they labor over the idea of here's where we think
we're going. You know you can trust us. And Neil
Quigley's description of how Adrian or departed, it's certainly an economic.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
With the truth, shall we say?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
But I think that the bigger question is, you know,
should Nicola Willis be considered should Nichola Willis consider inviting
Neil Quiggley to resign for personal reason?
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Because you for personal it's.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Hard for her to fire and may like, I don't
think that this meets the threshold for her giving him
the sack? Does it?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Well?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Because I think if you look at the Reserve Bank Act,
it's something it takes something like misconduct or failure to
do the job. And I'm not sure that you can
quite say that telling the public polkeys is one of
those things.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Ah.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
So, then if Nichola Willis can't invite him to resign,
I'm not sure why I should be telling him.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
To, because I trust you on this one.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
I can run the economy.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Well.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
Last what she was saying before, Tim.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Said that I would be allowed to resign my job
if I took up here to Erve Bank because I
could probably with the gap in wages, fund my replacement
for a year and come out all right.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I think that's actually quite good math from him. What
do you think, Nick?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I was kind of, Oh, look to speaking of contortionists.
He's got an employee who's rights and privacy has to respect,
and he's got a minister who's really you know, whose
policies of really or decisions have caused the employee to resign.
He's caught in the middle. But actually, the way you
summed it up, he didn't actually have to front a
(09:31):
press conference. He didn't have to say anything, And in fact,
I don't know why they they took. You know, they
went out there and and made a big deal when
actually they had nothing to say. And so I do
I feel sorry for Neil quickly. He is caught in
the middle. I don't actually think he should resign, but
I do think we need to consider in roles like this,
(09:54):
you know that people have the ability to communicate properly
and you know, don't see they have to say everything.
I mean, there's an employment relationship here. You can't comment on.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
That and don't try to y.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, absolutely, all right, guys, it's been brilliant to talk
to you. Thank you very much. Go back to your
troop of children. That's Thomas Scrimger of the Maximum Institute
and Nick Legget Infrastructure New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Find. You're
one of a kid.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I've got to get you an update on some Trump
related matters. But first of all, let's do the huddle.
We've got Thomas Scrimer of Maximum Institute and Nick Leaget
of Infrastructure New Zealand. Hello you guys.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Hello Nick.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
You've got a lot of kids, haven't you.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Well, yeah, more than you. How many of you got
got four? And it's an interesting conversation, this isn't it
because it's actually I think the reason people don't have
kids is because they start later and often like we're
selfish with our time. I mean, we've got four, so
we're busy. But I can really understand people go, well,
(00:38):
I only want to because they're easy to carry around
and I can still have a bit of a life.
So I think those are the sort of first world
kind of choices. But what we're looking at is massive population.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Before we get there. Before we get there, I'm not
finished talking about you. Does your wife work?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
She works very part time?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And how old has she's going to?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Just gone back to that? Three?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Okay, yeah, okay, So it kind of kind of lends
to my theory because I think what is going on
Nick is not actually so much a financial problem. I
think that and Paul kind of agreed with that. I
actually think that the problem here is women trying to
work while having babies is just too bloody hard, and
so as a result, they limit the number of children.
(01:24):
And your wife came out of the workforce, had for
and now is going back. Would you agree with my theory?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I think there's a lot to that. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Now carry on with what you were going to say
about demography and economics.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Well, I mean what we think about countries like China.
You know, it's projected that China is going to have
a massive population drop, and so it's not just you know,
thinking about ourselves, thinking about our trading partners. It's thinking
that this is going to be a worldwide trend. The
question is, what, if anything, can we actually do about it. Obviously,
(01:56):
being in the infrastructure sector, you know you plan to
build infrastructure that meets growing population needs. And when the
population isn't going to grow or it's it's going to
evolve differently, you have to start asking some long term
questions about where you plan to put your money in
your investments.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Thomas. I agree with Nick, and I think we just
need to accept that this is what the world is like.
This is what the Western world even will bring in migrants.
They will simply start to live like we do as
they become wealthier and more selfish like us. And I
think we just need to reorganize our economies to cope
with the fact that we're just not going to keep
replacing ourselves. Fair or no.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Well, I think it's a reasonably good prediction about what
is likely to happen. I don't know that we should
be complacent or enthusiastic about that. I mean, I don't
know about you, Heather, but many of my favorite people
were babies once.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Humans are good.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
This is this is a cultural challenge we have where
we've so often talked about family and kids in negative ways,
whether it's in conversations about you know, humans effect on
the environment or just the sacrifice of time, as if.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Children are just a burden. Humans are great. I like humans.
I'd like to see more.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But we also have to stop having babies, Thomas, We can't.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
I mean, there is why do we have to stop
having babies? Because I come from a long line of
people who had babies. This is how the world works
here though you know this, you're a mother.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
You can't just the planet can only hold so many
of us. I don't think it's a bad at.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Risk of us having too many babies.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Like you say, we have this demographic collapse warning from
the UN who are the last people to realize this.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Only because economies like this, Thomas, we can totally stop
having that. We can. We can reach a plateau and
we can just pop along with five million if that's
what we want to Why.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Not, Well we can.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
I just don't think it's good to view the world
in terms of decline.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Humans can go forward and grow and that's great.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You don't have any kids though, way, Thomas, you don't
have any kids, do you know?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
But you know the family betting markets are out, but
I think I'm putting the money one of my sister
in laws actually, so don't want to Scales though.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Nick, I don't want to leave Thomas with the impression
that having children is negative. Isn't it a wonderful delight
to have children?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
It's fantastic. I mean, you could do a whole huddle
on you know how great it is to have kids
and what a delight and the joy they are. But
I also reckon New Zealand should plan to grow. I
think we should have a strategy to grow because five
million people, it's okay, it's fine, but actually.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
All migrants then, Nick, are you cool with that?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
That's fine? Yeah, I am cool with that because we've
got to grow and we've got to grow our economy.
And you know, when you look at the impact the
positive impact that migrants have over time on innovation, on
starting businesses, on growing economies, it's really positive. And actually,
I want New Zealand to be welfare and I think
(04:51):
having more people living here, we've got to really plan
that and decide where and how we grow. I think
that's a good thing. So yeah, I'm I'm in favor
of it.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, I look, be honest, I don't mind us growing
ourselves a little bit. I think the others can stop
growing a wee bit. I will take a break, come
back shortly.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Story The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty achieve
extraordinary results with unparallel reach.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Right, you're back with the Huddle Thomas Scrimger and Nick Legett. Now, Thomas,
what do you think of the wool carpets.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
Oh well, I'm in two minds about it.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I heard what you were saying before about Robert Muldoon
coming back subsidizing industries, and I think that's a real concern.
And I would note that the farmers, whenever they're kind
of crying out for New Zealanders to buy New Zealand
made products, they're not buying New Zealand made tractors and
they're not buying New Zealand made fertilizer.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
But here, though, I'm going to.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Annoy you, I'm gonna trust kaying Aura when they say
it's cost neutral. They're building something to own in the
long term, you know, lifetime cost they might come out
Even so, wool carpets are a good product.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Thomas, why would you trust ko on anything.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
I'm an irrepressible optimist, you know.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
English You into them, you know, and they had some
cost blowouts, but no one ever suggested their cost blowouts
were due to buying two higher quality products. The management
it was the cost of land. So if wall is
a good product and they're owning it for the next
I think.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
You're trying to contort your mind into this. So because
you like the wool and remind me, remind me to
never trust you on anything to do with finances. Again.
If this is how gullible you are, Nick, what do
you think.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I have a real problem with political decrees driving what's
best where it comes to operational matters. It's how we
get ourselves into problems in this country. Look, once again,
I'll go back to infrastructure, because you know, do you
want politicians deciding where things go and how things are built? No,
(06:47):
you don't. You want politicians to set the broad agenda,
the themes, and you want them to tick off the money.
But actually you want experts to work in the middle.
And I just think that this stuff needs to be
about the judgment of people who know best, those who
build and then manage these properties, and understanding how tenants,
you know, how we're in Errika is. So I think
(07:12):
we should trust people. I think you know. And I
want to say, get politicians out of day to day
operations and directing proceedings. That's not what they're there for.
We need to get back to some traditional governance versus management.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Could not agree with you more, Thomas, Have you ever
tried to clean a wool carpet when somebody spills something
on it.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
I have not, Heather.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I just want to say, it's not as easy as
cleaning a nylon carpet. And I don't know if you
know what the inside of State House sometimes looks like.
But a nylon carpet's a good thing.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Now.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Thomas thoughts on Neil Quigley and whether he should retain
his job after all the porkies he told.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
And I think it's pretty precarious at the moment. Like
government always relies on trust, but the Reserve Bank especially
so when they do their announcements about interest rates and stuff,
they labor over the idea of here's where we think
we're going. You know you can trust us. And Neil
Quigley's description of how Adrian or departed, it's certainly an economic.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
With the truth, shall we say?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
But I think that the bigger question is, you know,
should Nicola Willis be considered should Nichola Willis consider inviting
Neil Quiggley to resign for personal reason?
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Because you for personal it's.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Hard for her to fire and may like, I don't
think that this meets the threshold for her giving him
the sack? Does it?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Well?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Because I think if you look at the Reserve Bank Act,
it's something it takes something like misconduct or failure to
do the job. And I'm not sure that you can
quite say that telling the public polkeys is one of
those things.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Ah.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
So, then if Nichola Willis can't invite him to resign,
I'm not sure why I should be telling him.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
To, because I trust you on this one.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
I can run the economy.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Well.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
Last what she was saying before, Tim.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Said that I would be allowed to resign my job
if I took up here to Erve Bank because I
could probably with the gap in wages, fund my replacement
for a year and come out all right.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I think that's actually quite good math from him. What
do you think, Nick?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I was kind of, Oh, look to speaking of contortionists.
He's got an employee who's rights and privacy has to respect,
and he's got a minister who's really you know, whose
policies of really or decisions have caused the employee to resign.
He's caught in the middle. But actually, the way you
summed it up, he didn't actually have to front a
(09:31):
press conference. He didn't have to say anything, And in fact,
I don't know why they they took. You know, they
went out there and and made a big deal when
actually they had nothing to say. And so I do
I feel sorry for Neil quickly. He is caught in
the middle. I don't actually think he should resign, but
I do think we need to consider in roles like this,
(09:54):
you know that people have the ability to communicate properly
and you know, don't see they have to say everything.
I mean, there's an employment relationship here. You can't comment on.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
That and don't try to y.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, absolutely, all right, guys, it's been brilliant to talk
to you. Thank you very much. Go back to your
troop of children. That's Thomas Scrimger of the Maximum Institute
and Nick Legget Infrastructure New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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