July 7, 2025 • 9 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Child Fund CEO Josie Pagani and Auckland Councillor Maurice Williamson joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
There's concerns broadening citizen's arrest powers could endanger young people - both thieves and retail workers. Do we need to find a better solution?
The second part of the Covid-19 inquiry is under way - do we think Jacinda Ardern will return to answer questions?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southerby's International Realty, Unique Homes,
Uniquely for.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You joining me tonight that the one on I Nely Joseph BUCGANI,
CEO of Child Fund, Josie good evening. Hello, Hello, and
Morris Williamson's here too, organd councilor former National Party minister.
Hey Morris, good to have you on the program. I
know you are there. We'll start with you. Josie, what
did you make of our Children's commissioner?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Well, the problem is it's the old Blair right thing.
You've got to be tough on crime, tough on the
causes of crime. So the prob I actually agree with her.
I don't think this is the right thing partly. I
mean I work for a child focused organization. I see
violence against children all the time, and the problem with
the sort of vigilante approach is it's actually really hard
to restrain a fifteen year old child or a ten
(00:46):
year old child or something without knowing how not to
hurt them. And you know, you've seen things in places
like the US where we had a vigilante couple a
couple of years ago shot a guy, an African American
black guy who they thought had robbed a house. Turns
out he was completely innocent. They shot him dad, and
they were saying it was a citizens citizens action. But
(01:07):
the problem with the interview you just did is that
you've got to say what you're going to do. You've
got to be tough on crime before you're tough on
the causes of crime. Otherwise people don't give you the
license to do the prices.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
So the problem that she's got there she didn't come
up with what earth the shopkeepers do? And for me,
you're right, you're right Ryan that if she call the police,
police aren't going to come straight away. But it has
to be resourcing the police. And if it's local police,
if you know that there's a supermarket or retail shop
that's getting targeted, police should be around that shop all
the time. We've got to resource the police to do
(01:40):
that job.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Morris.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Back in the day, you didn't have enough comps to
do any much much of any beat work. But yet
you had people who were honest, and if something like
that happened in in a general store, the can have
been held until the parents arrived.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yeah, look, I'm just about to explode with that previous
interview ever heard such rubbish in my whole bloody line.
She says, We've got to do a different way, but
not one item of what you would do, And you
can't retain some of these are little thugs. Some of
these people are wandering around with buddy weapons and so on. Now,
I do know you've got to do it carefully. You
can't just have a young shop attendant grab someone. That's
(02:18):
a problem. But if we maybe we could actually license
some of the security people that they have at these places,
and if they've got licenses, they can retain some of
the little wrap bags. But if we just leave it at
open slather, it just keeps growing, getting worse. And they
know they actually thumb their nose at the shopkeepers out here.
They thumb their not and say, you can't touch me,
you can't do anything. Well, I'm sorry, but I'm completely
(02:40):
in the opposite camp for the previous interview, you did,
I think the little basket should.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Be locked up?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah, So that the reason this is all happening as well, Morris,
is because you know a few weeks ago we had
the police. Someone sent out an email saying, oh, we're
only going to go to shoplifting above a certain value, right,
five hundred bucks, And so everybody, retailers went, what the hell, Well,
what are we going to do about the you know,
stealing the crunchy bar and the shampoos and whatnot. So
you've got to answer that question. You're right, and maybe
(03:07):
training security guards is a good idea, but you've got
to fund the police.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
You do.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
But the other thing about all of this is being
poor does not make you immoral. Like I'm sick of this,
I'm sick of this ship frankly from the left. You
know that does Just because you are poor, that does
not mean you will steal something. There are plenty of
poor people out there who don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
And I heard what you said, go back to the depression.
Go back to the depression, good lord, standing in line
and cues for soup, soup, but a soup kitchen with
no food nothing. Did they go out and you know,
steal and beat up people and beat up shopkeepers. No,
they did not. We never had that, and we have
allowed this. This is a problem we've allowed to happen.
(03:47):
And now desperate situations call for desperate measures.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
In my view, the one thing I would say you
said earlier, Ryan, I heard you that you know, not
arresting these kids or not having consequences for these kids
leads to anarchy. Absolutely right. I would argue that a
vigilante culture could also lead to it.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, I do agree with that too. So there's a
fine line to be head somewhere, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
But it's not a vigilantic culture if you've got it
properly managed, if you've got people who have been checked
in and past. I've got a security code. They are
people are employed to do so, they know how they work.
I don't want the kids hurt or want them detained.
It's not an arrest, it's detained until the police can come.
The problem I've got out here. The number of shopkeepers
have said we've called the police and the police said, look,
(04:27):
you just have to wait. We haven't got anybody available
for the next few hours. And it's just it's just
it's literally sending a signal keep doing it because you'll
get away with it.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Joseph Bigani Marris Williamson on the Huddle, will take a
quick break and be back with the.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Next The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, The
ones for unmassed results.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You're on news talks there eleven away from sixth. Great
to have your company for the huddle tonight. Joseph Bugani,
the chief executive at ChildFund, and Maurice Williamson, Aorkan councilor
former National Party minister. The COVID Inquiry Part two coming
to a cinemon EU. In fact, it started today and
cinema would be the last place you want to be
during COVID. Remember that they can't go any cinema, can't
(05:10):
go anywhere these people anyway, Part two of the inquiry
underway and the chair confirming to me this morning that
they are basically going to ask j Cinda Adourn to
give testimony, but you have to be in New Zealand
in order for their jurisdiction to stick. Josie, do you
think she will Well, one, she will clearly be asked,
(05:31):
But two do you think she will return even if
it's fine video link to answer questions?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Well, you'd have to ask the question why wouldn't she
if she's so pleased with the COVID response? You know,
and I say that as someone who was supportive of
the initial lockdown as most people were, but also frustrated
during COVID and since that we haven't really dug into
not how decisions were made, but what decisions were made.
(06:00):
How did they make a decision to close grengrosses and
butchers but keep the supermarket open. How did they make
a decision for extended lockdowns? Why did they make a
decision about MiQ that was so draconian for families. So
we do want to look at you know, was there
a better way to do it? And you know we
have to look all so internationally. I was looking just
(06:22):
before at the statistics for Sweden where they didn't have
a lockdown. Now you know Sweden had no lockdown. They
had they did have a country social distancing and stuff
like that, but they their COVID deaths were about the
middle range of all the Scandinavian countries in the Western
European countries that had lockdowns as well. That's interesting. I'm
(06:43):
not taking a position on that. I'm saying we should
examine that for next time to know whether they made
the right decision or not. Does just Sender need to
be there? What are we going to hear from her
that she hasn't already said. I'm not sure that we
do need her there.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
But if she.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Really felt confident about the response, it was nothing to
see here. Why wouldn't you?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Why wouldn't you? What you got to hide would be
the thing that their questions would be the interesting part
for me, and to see where they got with them. Morris.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
This console general in Los Angeles when it hit, and
I was there for the whole first year of it.
I saw some heartbreaking family stories who couldn't get home
to see a dying relative, or kids who couldn't get
home to see somebody who was really serious. And I
kept saying, there's no need for this almost random lottery
MiQ system. And I wrote some software because that's part
(07:30):
of my training and background. It's writing software. And I
actually wrote to both to Cinda and to Chippy, and
I said, I've got a model system where you'll earn
points for each day you're in the Q waiting. You'll
bubble to the top eventually know when it is you'll
get your MiQ slot. We can give double points for
those who are locked overseas and wanting to get home
compared to those that are here and wanting to go
(07:52):
off to Fiji or something. Because were people getting MiQ
who were here already heating off for a holiday, which
was nonsense. And I got these led us back, both
from Decinda and from Chippy. I know, we think the
system we've got us working perfectly well, Well it wasn't.
It was a disgrace. I came back in the end
when I was called back when it was all over,
and had to do MiQ at the Yepur in a
(08:13):
hotel for two weeks, and it was hilarious. I was
tested in Los Angeles. I was tested at WALK in
the airport when we arrived. I was tested at MiQ
at the actual hotel, negative all three, and then spent
two weeks sitting in a hotel while there were fifteen
thousand cases of it out in the street.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
And I don't want to see people put on trial.
I don't want the sense of, you know, even just
Sinda or anyone who was involved in it, because they
were making difficult decisions with less information than we have now.
But where you're right, Morris, is that we need to
understand if they made a decision like MiQ, like you know,
Grengrosser's closing and Butcher's closing or whatever, but Supermarket's open.
(08:53):
Was there an alternative because we need to know that
for next time and then we won't make the same.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Was there an alternative?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Why issue with that though, Josie as I gave them what?
And if you talk to other people from the computer
society and someone who looked at the software.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Arian Taylor did the same, Lots of people, lots of
people came.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Saw my system and said he really thought it was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And there you go, there you go. Maurice Williams and
Josie Bagani on the panel tonight. I think for me
that is the big issue too, is did they Yeah,
they made a bunch of decisions, they got a bunch
of stuff right, They've got a bunch of stuff wrong.
But were we too quick to dismiss the dissenting voices,
the plan beers, and did we ostracize them to our peril?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news Talk sai'd Be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
The Huddle with New Zealand Southerby's International Realty, Unique Homes,
Uniquely for.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You joining me tonight that the one on I Nely Joseph BUCGANI,
CEO of Child Fund, Josie good evening. Hello, Hello, and
Morris Williamson's here too, organd councilor former National Party minister.
Hey Morris, good to have you on the program. I
know you are there. We'll start with you. Josie, what
did you make of our Children's commissioner?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Well, the problem is it's the old Blair right thing.
You've got to be tough on crime, tough on the
causes of crime. So the prob I actually agree with her.
I don't think this is the right thing partly. I
mean I work for a child focused organization. I see
violence against children all the time, and the problem with
the sort of vigilante approach is it's actually really hard
to restrain a fifteen year old child or a ten
(00:46):
year old child or something without knowing how not to
hurt them. And you know, you've seen things in places
like the US where we had a vigilante couple a
couple of years ago shot a guy, an African American
black guy who they thought had robbed a house. Turns
out he was completely innocent. They shot him dad, and
they were saying it was a citizens citizens action. But
(01:07):
the problem with the interview you just did is that
you've got to say what you're going to do. You've
got to be tough on crime before you're tough on
the causes of crime. Otherwise people don't give you the
license to do the prices.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
So the problem that she's got there she didn't come
up with what earth the shopkeepers do? And for me,
you're right, you're right Ryan that if she call the police,
police aren't going to come straight away. But it has
to be resourcing the police. And if it's local police,
if you know that there's a supermarket or retail shop
that's getting targeted, police should be around that shop all
the time. We've got to resource the police to do
(01:40):
that job.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Morris.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Back in the day, you didn't have enough comps to
do any much much of any beat work. But yet
you had people who were honest, and if something like
that happened in in a general store, the can have
been held until the parents arrived.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yeah, look, I'm just about to explode with that previous
interview ever heard such rubbish in my whole bloody line.
She says, We've got to do a different way, but
not one item of what you would do, And you
can't retain some of these are little thugs. Some of
these people are wandering around with buddy weapons and so on. Now,
I do know you've got to do it carefully. You
can't just have a young shop attendant grab someone. That's
(02:18):
a problem. But if we maybe we could actually license
some of the security people that they have at these places,
and if they've got licenses, they can retain some of
the little wrap bags. But if we just leave it at
open slather, it just keeps growing, getting worse. And they
know they actually thumb their nose at the shopkeepers out here.
They thumb their not and say, you can't touch me,
you can't do anything. Well, I'm sorry, but I'm completely
(02:40):
in the opposite camp for the previous interview, you did,
I think the little basket should.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Be locked up?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah, So that the reason this is all happening as well, Morris,
is because you know a few weeks ago we had
the police. Someone sent out an email saying, oh, we're
only going to go to shoplifting above a certain value, right,
five hundred bucks, And so everybody, retailers went, what the hell, Well,
what are we going to do about the you know,
stealing the crunchy bar and the shampoos and whatnot. So
you've got to answer that question. You're right, and maybe
(03:07):
training security guards is a good idea, but you've got
to fund the police.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
You do.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
But the other thing about all of this is being
poor does not make you immoral. Like I'm sick of this,
I'm sick of this ship frankly from the left. You
know that does Just because you are poor, that does
not mean you will steal something. There are plenty of
poor people out there who don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
And I heard what you said, go back to the depression.
Go back to the depression, good lord, standing in line
and cues for soup, soup, but a soup kitchen with
no food nothing. Did they go out and you know,
steal and beat up people and beat up shopkeepers. No,
they did not. We never had that, and we have
allowed this. This is a problem we've allowed to happen.
(03:47):
And now desperate situations call for desperate measures.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
In my view, the one thing I would say you
said earlier, Ryan, I heard you that you know, not
arresting these kids or not having consequences for these kids
leads to anarchy. Absolutely right. I would argue that a
vigilante culture could also lead to it.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, I do agree with that too. So there's a
fine line to be head somewhere, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
But it's not a vigilantic culture if you've got it
properly managed, if you've got people who have been checked
in and past. I've got a security code. They are
people are employed to do so, they know how they work.
I don't want the kids hurt or want them detained.
It's not an arrest, it's detained until the police can come.
The problem I've got out here. The number of shopkeepers
have said we've called the police and the police said, look,
(04:27):
you just have to wait. We haven't got anybody available
for the next few hours. And it's just it's just
it's literally sending a signal keep doing it because you'll
get away with it.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Joseph Bigani Marris Williamson on the Huddle, will take a
quick break and be back with the.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Next The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, The
ones for unmassed results.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You're on news talks there eleven away from sixth. Great
to have your company for the huddle tonight. Joseph Bugani,
the chief executive at ChildFund, and Maurice Williamson, Aorkan councilor
former National Party minister. The COVID Inquiry Part two coming
to a cinemon EU. In fact, it started today and
cinema would be the last place you want to be
during COVID. Remember that they can't go any cinema, can't
(05:10):
go anywhere these people anyway, Part two of the inquiry
underway and the chair confirming to me this morning that
they are basically going to ask j Cinda Adourn to
give testimony, but you have to be in New Zealand
in order for their jurisdiction to stick. Josie, do you
think she will Well, one, she will clearly be asked,
(05:31):
But two do you think she will return even if
it's fine video link to answer questions?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Well, you'd have to ask the question why wouldn't she
if she's so pleased with the COVID response? You know,
and I say that as someone who was supportive of
the initial lockdown as most people were, but also frustrated
during COVID and since that we haven't really dug into
not how decisions were made, but what decisions were made.
(06:00):
How did they make a decision to close grengrosses and
butchers but keep the supermarket open. How did they make
a decision for extended lockdowns? Why did they make a
decision about MiQ that was so draconian for families. So
we do want to look at you know, was there
a better way to do it? And you know we
have to look all so internationally. I was looking just
(06:22):
before at the statistics for Sweden where they didn't have
a lockdown. Now you know Sweden had no lockdown. They
had they did have a country social distancing and stuff
like that, but they their COVID deaths were about the
middle range of all the Scandinavian countries in the Western
European countries that had lockdowns as well. That's interesting. I'm
(06:43):
not taking a position on that. I'm saying we should
examine that for next time to know whether they made
the right decision or not. Does just Sender need to
be there? What are we going to hear from her
that she hasn't already said. I'm not sure that we
do need her there.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
But if she.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Really felt confident about the response, it was nothing to
see here. Why wouldn't you?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Why wouldn't you? What you got to hide would be
the thing that their questions would be the interesting part
for me, and to see where they got with them. Morris.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
This console general in Los Angeles when it hit, and
I was there for the whole first year of it.
I saw some heartbreaking family stories who couldn't get home
to see a dying relative, or kids who couldn't get
home to see somebody who was really serious. And I
kept saying, there's no need for this almost random lottery
MiQ system. And I wrote some software because that's part
(07:30):
of my training and background. It's writing software. And I
actually wrote to both to Cinda and to Chippy, and
I said, I've got a model system where you'll earn
points for each day you're in the Q waiting. You'll
bubble to the top eventually know when it is you'll
get your MiQ slot. We can give double points for
those who are locked overseas and wanting to get home
compared to those that are here and wanting to go
(07:52):
off to Fiji or something. Because were people getting MiQ
who were here already heating off for a holiday, which
was nonsense. And I got these led us back, both
from Decinda and from Chippy. I know, we think the
system we've got us working perfectly well, Well it wasn't.
It was a disgrace. I came back in the end
when I was called back when it was all over,
and had to do MiQ at the Yepur in a
(08:13):
hotel for two weeks, and it was hilarious. I was
tested in Los Angeles. I was tested at WALK in
the airport when we arrived. I was tested at MiQ
at the actual hotel, negative all three, and then spent
two weeks sitting in a hotel while there were fifteen
thousand cases of it out in the street.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
And I don't want to see people put on trial.
I don't want the sense of, you know, even just
Sinda or anyone who was involved in it, because they
were making difficult decisions with less information than we have now.
But where you're right, Morris, is that we need to
understand if they made a decision like MiQ, like you know,
Grengrosser's closing and Butcher's closing or whatever, but Supermarket's open.
(08:53):
Was there an alternative because we need to know that
for next time and then we won't make the same.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Was there an alternative?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Why issue with that though, Josie as I gave them what?
And if you talk to other people from the computer
society and someone who looked at the software.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Arian Taylor did the same, Lots of people, lots of
people came.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Saw my system and said he really thought it was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And there you go, there you go. Maurice Williams and
Josie Bagani on the panel tonight. I think for me
that is the big issue too, is did they Yeah,
they made a bunch of decisions, they got a bunch
of stuff right, They've got a bunch of stuff wrong.
But were we too quick to dismiss the dissenting voices,
the plan beers, and did we ostracize them to our peril?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news Talk sai'd Be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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