November 26, 2024 • 9 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Jordan Williams from the Taxpayers' Union and former Labour Chief of Staff Mike Munro joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Former National MP Nikki Kaye died aged 44 after a lengthy battle with cancer. People from all sides of the political spectrum came together to pay tribute to her - what made her so special? What will we remember about her?
Does NCEA need to go? An ERO review revealed NCEA level one needs an overhaul - or to be scrapped altogether. Do we need a new national qualification?
Labour's going to decide what sort of tax scheme they'll progress this weekend - do we see a capital gains tax coming?
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Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The huddle with New Zealand Southerby's International Realty, local and
global exposure like no other.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Jordan Williams Taxpayer Union and Mike Monroe, former chief of
Staff to just send our doners with us. Now, hello
you too, to Heather Mike, you were around in the
nineteen eighties.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
How did this happen?
Speaker 4 (00:16):
I sure was. I can move my kids in the
nineteen nineties complaining about n CEA.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Oh well, I was talking.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
No, I'm talking about the cup of tea at the hairdresser.
Were you around in Parliament at that stage?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Did you witness? Can you tell us which MP thought
this was a great idea?
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Oh no, I can't. The memory is faded on that one.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (00:35):
So I wasn't so phonically challenging those days.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
I might have taken more notice, but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Now, Jordan, did you ever work with Nicky K?
Speaker 4 (00:45):
No? I didn't.
Speaker 6 (00:47):
The media release today from the Taxpayers Union was rightly
from David Farrer, who was very close to NICKI. It's
extraordinary that she's that mitt A piers Uniw was terminal
since twenty sixteen and has continued to work away. It
certainly puts in context slightly differently when she stepped up
to be depputy leader that, you know, knowing it clearly
(01:07):
wasn't for personal ambition.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yeah, it absolutely does.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
What do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
What do you reckon?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Mike?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It was that made her so special that she was
able to I mean, it's quite an extraordinary thing to
be able to say that you beat Jacinda Ardoun twice
and kept her out of an electorate like Auckland Central.
What did she have?
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Yeah, she was somebody who stood out from the back,
and she was in that sort of top tier of
you know, high achievers who got into cabinet pretty quickly.
But I think what maybe helps explain it was something
to Cinda ar Dune said today in a social post,
and she said that one great thing about Nicki Kay
was that she would judge whether an idea was good
or bad or and different based on her values rather
(01:44):
than just politics. Yeah, and that's a really rare that's
a rare thing in politics. We don't see that very often.
The numbers of people who you could apply that description to,
you know, you can count on the fingers of one hand.
And I think maybe that's where she was something a
bit different.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Yeah, is that a fair point, Jordan, Like parliamentarians are
whipped so much right now to be like, if you
belong to the National Party, you will do all the
following things and think like a National Party MP, and
if you belong to the Greens and blah blah blah,
and maybe actually there is some benefit in being unwhipped.
Speaker 6 (02:13):
Yeah, I mean I can think of an example where,
for example, she was allowed to cross the floor on
an issue that's right, was something to do with Wahiki Island,
or there was a particular issue was it was a
great barrier, mine, a great barrier. Sorry, I'm quite right, Mike.
So you know, maybe one of her strengths was that
sort of old fashioned electric MP.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Now, Mike, you mentioned n ce A. Would you get
rid of n c A.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Well, yeah, look as turning into a horror show, m
c A. There's just far.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Too many inconsistencies, and you know, and there's great inconsistencies
and how schools are handling it, and a lot of
schools have already dropped it. And look, this is our
national qualification and it's got to be consistent across the
whole country because kids changed us for all sorts of reasons.
Families move towns and whatever. People move suburbs, and so
(03:05):
you can't have a situation where you where the kids
are going into a different setup every time they change schools.
So you're getting that consistency is critical, and the number
of schools now opting out tells me they've really got
to go back right to the start and sort of
do a really thorough ordered of it.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah, what do you reckon, Jordan?
Speaker 6 (03:25):
What first got me into politics was I was the
guineap a year for NCA twenty five years ago. It
was this and ge that, and frankly Trevor Mallard should
hang his head in shame. I recall that this was
totally predictable. The whole purpose of a national qualification is
that it equals playing field, doesn't matter if you go
(03:46):
what school you went to. It was that it meant
something and to see rating is in and reporting that.
Now the blob acknowledge that Level one difficulty varies between
subjects and skills. Will no s Sherlock remember the Cambridge
And this was literally when my fifth form year the Cambridge.
We're getting credits for picking up rubbish and if you
(04:08):
great went to Cambridge High school. You know that that
didn't mean as much. The whole point of it was was,
you know, so it is going to private school. I
also did Cambridge Math in the same year. I did
school See in the fourth form, and then Guinnea Pig
first the year n CEA in the fifth form, and
so it wasn't just dumbing down. And I think that
(04:29):
the reason we don't do the international qualifications is it
would show up just how far behind New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Is have fallen in the last twenty five years. Okay,
we'll take a break with these two guys. Come back
and just right, you're back of the huddle. Jordan Williams,
Mike Monroe. Mike, what do you think Labour's going to do?
Are they going to pick the capital gains tax this weekend?
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:45):
I think we're on a inevitable sort of course here, Heather.
After Labor got booted out last year, one of the
big gripes Labor people had right across the country was
that the capital gains tax had been mixed by two
Prime ministers, both just Sindra Ardern and Hipkins had their
reasons for putting that off the agenda, and that's been
part of the mix for labor people for a long
(05:07):
time and since the election, a lot of work's been
going on, a lot of talks been going on, and
they're getting up ahead of steam on this, and there
is going to be a capital gains tax of some form.
But my concern is is that that they can't do
it sort of alone. I mean, every tax has got
its trade offs and costs and you know, inefficiencies, and
(05:28):
it's got to be part of a change and mixed.
It has to be a part of a change to
the mix of taxes. There's got to be a sort
of consolidated package of tax change and capital gains will
be part of that. But it's going to take a
little while yet before they get to that point of
laying out that plan, at least another year.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Okay, Well, I mean I'm interested to see what a
complete package is going to look like, Jordan. But if
they just go for the capital gains tax, I'm all
for that, because then they just don't get elected cool by.
Speaker 6 (05:52):
Mean, Paul Mike's been drinking the radio and New Zealand
kool aid on capital gains tax. I think it's a
real shame actually that we have our opposition major opposition
party that is going into its first year conference having
been booted out, and instead of really looking at the
(06:13):
fundamental questions, what makes New Zealand more prosperous, how do
we stop this sort of decline of our public services,
et cetera, et cetera, they are going in with a
choice between do you want a wealth tax or do
you want a keep of gains tax. That's literally the
choice to entire Texas this way this weekend. But what
(06:35):
I find so frustrating about this debate is the way
to put aside the way that our n zet asked,
you know, do you want more taxes on X, Y Z,
and then added them all together and said this is
the number one, the capital gains tax. But the fundamental
problem economic story of my lifetime is New Zealand is
low wages, low productivity because we're undercapitalized. Yes, that you
would tax that very thing, Dren's is crazy.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Your argument is you need to get capital into the country,
so don't put a capital gains tax on the.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
The problem is, and this is the fundamental dishonesty of
Chris Hipkins. Yes, he says, oh, it's it's to fix
the housing prices because is so much money. There is
too much money going into into housing and not into
productive assets. But any capital gains text has been proposed
in this country has excluded the family home. You're making
the very problem and white anti New Zealanders or gas
(07:26):
light in them rather saying will have the exact opposite effect.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
Mike, Now, Jordan, you're out of date. Hip can stop
saying that a long time ago.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
This is about the cost you would Is he going
to text the family home with inequality?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Mike? Is he going to text the family home?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
No doubt.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
The problem that's the problems text is that straight away
you start talking about some exemptions and objections and compromises.
I mean, the capital gains text can be manipulated in
many ways. And that's why I say it's about the
mix of taxes. You're going to do that, You're going
have to move elsewhere.
Speaker 6 (08:01):
There is a fundamental shift there though, because for a
generation we've had a approach whereby the tax system is
to raise the necessary revenue at least possible costs, meaning
the least possible economic distortions. However, it's now been used
by labor, going back to a nineteen seventies mode of
we use our tax system to redistribute, Yes, because that's
(08:23):
that and under our the approach we've taken for successive
taxing working groups is the that is on the spending
side of well. Often Labour's rhetoric but not in its actions.
Here seems to actually be a real shift or frankly
a shift to the left. Not just in New Zealand Labor,
but and you know we're seeing the same in the UK.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
It'll be nice to have a point of difference between
the major parties on such a key thing, don't you think.
I mean, I think in so many areas these days
they sort of shadow each other.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
I think you want to see in Zealand to be
poor for your boots.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
And catch that go a recipe.
Speaker 6 (09:02):
If he's yelling to be poorer for your boots, you
know your taxing the very thing that we need for
high wages, for better standards of living.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Well, not doing anything as a recipe to be unfairer.
And what do you think that's to be addressed?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Better to be poor and fair that some of us
than some of us be rich and it be unfair.
All right, We're going to leave it there, guys. I
really appreciate the pair of you.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Thank you so much. I wanted to talk to you
about the post, but we'll leave it for another day
of going heaps of text.
Speaker 6 (09:26):
Anyway, I'll send you a letter.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I'll see it on the other side of the year.
Jordan Williams, Mike monrahudle this
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Evening for more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live
to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
The huddle with New Zealand Southerby's International Realty, local and
global exposure like no other.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Jordan Williams Taxpayer Union and Mike Monroe, former chief of
Staff to just send our doners with us. Now, hello
you too, to Heather Mike, you were around in the
nineteen eighties.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
How did this happen?
Speaker 4 (00:16):
I sure was. I can move my kids in the
nineteen nineties complaining about n CEA.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Oh well, I was talking.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
No, I'm talking about the cup of tea at the hairdresser.
Were you around in Parliament at that stage?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Did you witness? Can you tell us which MP thought
this was a great idea?
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Oh no, I can't. The memory is faded on that one.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (00:35):
So I wasn't so phonically challenging those days.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
I might have taken more notice, but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Now, Jordan, did you ever work with Nicky K?
Speaker 4 (00:45):
No? I didn't.
Speaker 6 (00:47):
The media release today from the Taxpayers Union was rightly
from David Farrer, who was very close to NICKI. It's
extraordinary that she's that mitt A piers Uniw was terminal
since twenty sixteen and has continued to work away. It
certainly puts in context slightly differently when she stepped up
to be depputy leader that, you know, knowing it clearly
(01:07):
wasn't for personal ambition.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yeah, it absolutely does.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
What do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
What do you reckon?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Mike?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It was that made her so special that she was
able to I mean, it's quite an extraordinary thing to
be able to say that you beat Jacinda Ardoun twice
and kept her out of an electorate like Auckland Central.
What did she have?
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Yeah, she was somebody who stood out from the back,
and she was in that sort of top tier of
you know, high achievers who got into cabinet pretty quickly.
But I think what maybe helps explain it was something
to Cinda ar Dune said today in a social post,
and she said that one great thing about Nicki Kay
was that she would judge whether an idea was good
or bad or and different based on her values rather
(01:44):
than just politics. Yeah, and that's a really rare that's
a rare thing in politics. We don't see that very often.
The numbers of people who you could apply that description to,
you know, you can count on the fingers of one hand.
And I think maybe that's where she was something a
bit different.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Yeah, is that a fair point, Jordan, Like parliamentarians are
whipped so much right now to be like, if you
belong to the National Party, you will do all the
following things and think like a National Party MP, and
if you belong to the Greens and blah blah blah,
and maybe actually there is some benefit in being unwhipped.
Speaker 6 (02:13):
Yeah, I mean I can think of an example where,
for example, she was allowed to cross the floor on
an issue that's right, was something to do with Wahiki Island,
or there was a particular issue was it was a
great barrier, mine, a great barrier. Sorry, I'm quite right, Mike.
So you know, maybe one of her strengths was that
sort of old fashioned electric MP.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Now, Mike, you mentioned n ce A. Would you get
rid of n c A.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Well, yeah, look as turning into a horror show, m
c A. There's just far.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Too many inconsistencies, and you know, and there's great inconsistencies
and how schools are handling it, and a lot of
schools have already dropped it. And look, this is our
national qualification and it's got to be consistent across the
whole country because kids changed us for all sorts of reasons.
Families move towns and whatever. People move suburbs, and so
(03:05):
you can't have a situation where you where the kids
are going into a different setup every time they change schools.
So you're getting that consistency is critical, and the number
of schools now opting out tells me they've really got
to go back right to the start and sort of
do a really thorough ordered of it.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah, what do you reckon, Jordan?
Speaker 6 (03:25):
What first got me into politics was I was the
guineap a year for NCA twenty five years ago. It
was this and ge that, and frankly Trevor Mallard should
hang his head in shame. I recall that this was
totally predictable. The whole purpose of a national qualification is
that it equals playing field, doesn't matter if you go
(03:46):
what school you went to. It was that it meant
something and to see rating is in and reporting that.
Now the blob acknowledge that Level one difficulty varies between
subjects and skills. Will no s Sherlock remember the Cambridge
And this was literally when my fifth form year the Cambridge.
We're getting credits for picking up rubbish and if you
(04:08):
great went to Cambridge High school. You know that that
didn't mean as much. The whole point of it was was,
you know, so it is going to private school. I
also did Cambridge Math in the same year. I did
school See in the fourth form, and then Guinnea Pig
first the year n CEA in the fifth form, and
so it wasn't just dumbing down. And I think that
(04:29):
the reason we don't do the international qualifications is it
would show up just how far behind New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Is have fallen in the last twenty five years. Okay,
we'll take a break with these two guys. Come back
and just right, you're back of the huddle. Jordan Williams,
Mike Monroe. Mike, what do you think Labour's going to do?
Are they going to pick the capital gains tax this weekend?
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:45):
I think we're on a inevitable sort of course here, Heather.
After Labor got booted out last year, one of the
big gripes Labor people had right across the country was
that the capital gains tax had been mixed by two
Prime ministers, both just Sindra Ardern and Hipkins had their
reasons for putting that off the agenda, and that's been
part of the mix for labor people for a long
(05:07):
time and since the election, a lot of work's been
going on, a lot of talks been going on, and
they're getting up ahead of steam on this, and there
is going to be a capital gains tax of some form.
But my concern is is that that they can't do
it sort of alone. I mean, every tax has got
its trade offs and costs and you know, inefficiencies, and
(05:28):
it's got to be part of a change and mixed.
It has to be a part of a change to
the mix of taxes. There's got to be a sort
of consolidated package of tax change and capital gains will
be part of that. But it's going to take a
little while yet before they get to that point of
laying out that plan, at least another year.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Okay, Well, I mean I'm interested to see what a
complete package is going to look like, Jordan. But if
they just go for the capital gains tax, I'm all
for that, because then they just don't get elected cool by.
Speaker 6 (05:52):
Mean, Paul Mike's been drinking the radio and New Zealand
kool aid on capital gains tax. I think it's a
real shame actually that we have our opposition major opposition
party that is going into its first year conference having
been booted out, and instead of really looking at the
(06:13):
fundamental questions, what makes New Zealand more prosperous, how do
we stop this sort of decline of our public services,
et cetera, et cetera, they are going in with a
choice between do you want a wealth tax or do
you want a keep of gains tax. That's literally the
choice to entire Texas this way this weekend. But what
(06:35):
I find so frustrating about this debate is the way
to put aside the way that our n zet asked,
you know, do you want more taxes on X, Y Z,
and then added them all together and said this is
the number one, the capital gains tax. But the fundamental
problem economic story of my lifetime is New Zealand is
low wages, low productivity because we're undercapitalized. Yes, that you
would tax that very thing, Dren's is crazy.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Your argument is you need to get capital into the country,
so don't put a capital gains tax on the.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
The problem is, and this is the fundamental dishonesty of
Chris Hipkins. Yes, he says, oh, it's it's to fix
the housing prices because is so much money. There is
too much money going into into housing and not into
productive assets. But any capital gains text has been proposed
in this country has excluded the family home. You're making
the very problem and white anti New Zealanders or gas
(07:26):
light in them rather saying will have the exact opposite effect.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
Mike, Now, Jordan, you're out of date. Hip can stop
saying that a long time ago.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
This is about the cost you would Is he going
to text the family home with inequality?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Mike? Is he going to text the family home?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
No doubt.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
The problem that's the problems text is that straight away
you start talking about some exemptions and objections and compromises.
I mean, the capital gains text can be manipulated in
many ways. And that's why I say it's about the
mix of taxes. You're going to do that, You're going
have to move elsewhere.
Speaker 6 (08:01):
There is a fundamental shift there though, because for a
generation we've had a approach whereby the tax system is
to raise the necessary revenue at least possible costs, meaning
the least possible economic distortions. However, it's now been used
by labor, going back to a nineteen seventies mode of
we use our tax system to redistribute, Yes, because that's
(08:23):
that and under our the approach we've taken for successive
taxing working groups is the that is on the spending
side of well. Often Labour's rhetoric but not in its actions.
Here seems to actually be a real shift or frankly
a shift to the left. Not just in New Zealand Labor,
but and you know we're seeing the same in the UK.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
It'll be nice to have a point of difference between
the major parties on such a key thing, don't you think.
I mean, I think in so many areas these days
they sort of shadow each other.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
I think you want to see in Zealand to be
poor for your boots.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
And catch that go a recipe.
Speaker 6 (09:02):
If he's yelling to be poorer for your boots, you
know your taxing the very thing that we need for
high wages, for better standards of living.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Well, not doing anything as a recipe to be unfairer.
And what do you think that's to be addressed?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Better to be poor and fair that some of us
than some of us be rich and it be unfair.
All right, We're going to leave it there, guys. I
really appreciate the pair of you.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Thank you so much. I wanted to talk to you
about the post, but we'll leave it for another day
of going heaps of text.
Speaker 6 (09:26):
Anyway, I'll send you a letter.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I'll see it on the other side of the year.
Jordan Williams, Mike monrahudle this
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Evening for more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live
to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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