February 4, 2025 • 11 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Tim Wilson from Maxim Institute and former Health NZ chair Rob Campbell joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Wellington housing valuations have taken a dive, with new data showing values have fallen 24.4 percent since 2021. What do we make of this?
The new plan to turn Kāinga Ora around includes selling off 900 older homes a year and replacing them with newer, simpler builds. Do we agree with this choice?
The Government is hinting at potentially changing the corporate tax rates in this year's Budget. Will this help? How far should they go?
Auckland real estate agent Janet Dickson has lost a court battle after she lost her license for not completing a Maori course. She'd argued it wasn't relevant to her job - the judgement said the Real Estate Authority had the right to strip her of her license. What do we think about this?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southby's International realty, local and
global exposure like no other.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Joining me on the huddle this evening is Tim Wilson
from the Maximum Institute. Good evening, Tim, yeay, Ryan, how
are you doing good? Thank you? And Rob Campbell's here
aut chancel the former health ends in Chare. Hey Rob Ry,
how are you? Yeah, really good? Thank you. Good to
have you both on the huddle. Let's start as well,
just as rolling.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
None of the same thing in Wellington, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Oh my goodness, Yeah exactly. It's the Golden Mile, not
the Golden Mile.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It just makes you sad and depressed. And I mean
it's not helped by because there's there's a whole range
of factors. But obviously the public sector lay offs are
having a real effect there. You know, confidence is low.
You've got all of the best cafes closing if they
can't stay open. But they'll turn a corner, they'll turn
a corner.
Speaker 5 (00:50):
But will the council turn a corner? That's the question.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
It's like, oh, we put up you know, keep rates
at ten percent, which you could think, oh, even that's
a bit hi given them a property's gone back twenty
five percent.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Nah, not interested.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
The thing about Wellington is there's only so much land,
especially around the central city, and a lot of it
that is hilly and you can't build on it. And
then you don't really want to be in a big,
sky high apartment because of the earthquake risk.
Speaker 5 (01:14):
So that's true.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
You know, long term, I think things are good. If
you're a property owner in Mellington, you're a cheerleader.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
Ryan.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Hey, let's talk about coming order Robin. The turnaround plan.
They say they will sell off nine hundred older homes
that are damp and moldy, and we will build newer
ones and we will keep you know, there'll be a net.
There will be no net loss of homes. What do
you make of it? I think, Rob, I think you
(01:45):
might have muted your phone in the meantime, Tim, what
do you think of the plan?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Yeah, I've done that with my phone and myself a
few times.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
So look, I realized I was actually really interested with the.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Cheek cheap on the button.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
There we go, check on the button.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Look, I'm actually was interested to hear in the news
where it's like saying, oh, you know, your coying a
order the houses are twelve percent more to build, and
then we hear a builder saying well, that's because they're
better quality than the houses in the market. You think,
oh golly, so why would you buy a house in
the market. I mean, it seems like they're more expensive
to build. They've got two hundred houses in Auckland worth
(02:24):
two million, and fifty eight percent of the demand is
for single bedroom dwellings, whereas only twelve percent of the
capacities there.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Something definitely has to change with coying of order.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, well that sounds like it needs rob Ryan.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
We need a bigger and better caring or It's very
clear that we are going to need more social housing
and more socially provided housing going on into the future.
So to put forward a plan which only produces the
same number of houses is really not addressing the issue
(02:58):
in any way whatsoever. There's nothing wrong with some recycling
of our sets. That makes perfect sense as long as
it's done in an appropriate way. But the underwhelming thing
is that it doesn't recognize any part of the housing
crisis there is in New Zealand availability of housing at
reasonable rents to people who can't afford to buy houses.
That's the issue. That we're going to have to address
(03:20):
and this just bypasses us as if it didn't even exist.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
But that's I think that's the point exactly that the
minister was making in his stand up. He said, fifty
percent of the twenty thousand people who are currently on
the waitlist, fifty percent are already in private housing. It's
just that their incomes aren't keeping up to the point
where they need to be on the list for social housing.
He says, the private housing market is broken and you
(03:45):
need to do a whole bunch of things to fix
the wider market and that will help to alleviate the
social housing weightlist.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Does he have a point, Well, if he thinks that
there is some way in which the private housing market
it is being fixed, it might well be a point.
But we know that's not the case. People are not
building housing for people who are low income earners and
low incomers, as we know from recent stats of falling
(04:13):
further and further behind in terms of the cost of
living in relative and absolute terms. So the government can't
sort of put these things off and say, oh, the
private sector is going to deal with it. The private
sector will build the houses where it can make money
out of doing so, and at the moment it doesn't
seem to be anyway. It makes money out of providing
the sort of housing that we actually need. So no,
(04:35):
it's not going to He can say that as much
as he likes, but frankly and you said it was
at a standard. He must be a stand up comedian.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Rob Campbell, Tim Wilson on the Huddle Back in a second.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Elevate the
Marketing of your.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Home thirteen to Sex. Tim Wilson from the Maximum Institute
and Rob Campbell, aut chancellor and former health ends each
Yair on the Huddle tonight. Welcome back guys, so growth,
We're all going for growth. Nikola Willis was on the
show last night and I kept asking her about the
corporate tax rate. You know, Luxe and ital kept going
on about how much we love Ireland. Well, Ireland have
(05:13):
a very low corporate tax rate. It's twelve and a
half percent. Singapore has seventeen percent. Ours is twenty eight percent.
The minister acknowledged on the show last night we're no
longer competitive on our corporate tax rate. Do you think
Tim it's it would be a smart idea to move
that rate and try and encourage companies to either set
up here or do more business here.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Yeah, I think it would.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
I mean, we've we've got two issues here in our country.
We've got a productivity problem and a capital problem. We're
trouble attracting capital.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
So, like you know, if we.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Were talking about houses before, the way a lot of
investors do it is they let you know, the buy
a house and let it sleep walk to capital gain.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
That doesn't create dynamism in the economy.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
And so if there's a reduction in the corporate tax,
you would think, well, that might actually divert investment into
more productive and more dynamic as its companies, et cetera.
Maybe they might even start a company that can build
houses more cheaply that can assist.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
A low socio x.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
But yeah, I mean Ireland twelve point five. It's but
it's interesting. Sweden and Norway are those Scandinavians they're always
also called they do it pretty well. Theirs is actually
twenty in Sweden percent and twenty two in Norway. Ours
is twenty eight. If the Swedes can do it, one
of us rob.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Well, you won't be surprised. I don't agree with that.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
When you.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Business, or on people for that matter, you've got to
think about the whole tax burden. Company tax is just
one part of it, and relative to some other countries,
our company tax burden looked at on its own, is
relatively high. But this is a race to the bottom.
Cutting corporate tax rates is a kind of a game
that can play for a long time before people get
(06:56):
attracted here. And it's cutting.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
It make you think.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
You know, these businesses, these capitalists that are supposed to
be able to save us, they need an awful lot
of encouragement, don't they. They won't invest unless they have
appropriate rules. They won't come here unless the electricity is cheap.
They won't build houses unless they get tax concessions of
their landlords. Now, they won't come here and set up
businesses unless company tax rate is too low. How come
(07:23):
it's them They're supposed to be the strong element in
our economy. They're the ones that need all the encouragement.
They've got to be coached to do any of the
things that people think they do. Now, you can't coach
people into doing these things. We've got to face the
realities that we need revenue for a whole lot of things,
and if we cut the company tax rate, we will
have to get the tax from somewhere else. And so
(07:46):
people just have to be a bit realistic about that.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
The idea with the ideas that you will grow right.
I mean, look at Ireland as an example. They literally
have so much tax revenue flowing into their coffers that
there's setting up a sovereign wealth fund to dump it into.
I mean, they're drowning in tax revenue because.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
Could they dump it over here please?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
It would be nice. But you know what I'm saying.
And aren't we at risk if we turn our noses
up and say, well, the corporates do this, and the
corporates do that. Are we not at risk of sitting
by and becoming an economic backwater at the bottom of
the Pacific?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Well, you could argue that we are something of an
economic batworder. I prefer to think of ourselves as being
in the center Oceania rather than at the bottom of
the Pacific. But you know, you may have noticed that
Ireland has some advantages that New Zealand has doesn't have,
particularly being packed right next door to the EU, right
next door to the UK, and they have had some
(08:45):
positive return from companies going there who would otherwise have
been somewhere else to get to take advantage of the
lower tax rate. And there'll be some New Zealand income
being diverted to major corporations who have a tax base
in Ireland. But believe me, that will change. That moves
around the world as various people try to have these
smart a ideas, and eventually the answer to this is
(09:10):
not to chase each other to the larwest possible tax rate.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
All right, I just wonder if there's a potential for
a general tax tax take increase. My understanding is JFJFK
cut corporate taxes when he came into sixty one in
the court of the actual total tax take increased in
the United States during the nineteen sixties. So I think
there's lots of facets to this argument.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Well, that was a theory that was floated back at
the time, but it's been pretty much discredited. The idea
that there is some automatic knee jerk response simply doesn't
hold up. There have been one or two instances where
it's been observed, with other instances where that reaction simply
hasn't happened. It depends on a whole lot of other factors.
It's just not an arithmetic outcome, but.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
It's sort of a logical one, isn't it. If you
can go and do business somewhere cheaper, then you would
because you'd make more money and in the process we
would have more money.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
And look, if we lower our tax rates, we will
get some more people here. If we lower our electricity
prices and subsidize them, we might even get an aluminium
smelder here. Oh, hang on, we've got one. If we
do various things. Yes, we can get things here. We
can get people to come here. Will we as New
Zealand benefit from it? Other than an arithmeticuptick and GDP?
(10:24):
Will we benefit as a society from It's entirely a
different question.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
All right, hey, very quickly. This real estate agent Janet Dixon,
she's lost her court battle after she tried to get
out of doing a multi course in Wellington, and basically
she's been found that it's been found that her license
was revoked and that decision is staying. Got any reaction
to that, tim.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yeah, Well, I was glad to hear Rob saying that
coaxing doesn't work I don't think coercion works either. It's
an interesting notion that compelling people to take Treaty t
kung At courses will improve relations and understanding of the treaty.
Compulsion just doesn't work for some people. We saw that
during COVID mandates, and it's interesting the Real Estate Authority
(11:09):
has recognized this because that course is no longer mandatory exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
The law has been changed since then, since this decision
came out today. It was sorry, I should say, in
the interim between when the case was taken and the
decision was made public today. Tim, thank you very much
for coming on the show, as always, Tim Wilson from
the Maximum Institute, and Rob Campbell, the AU two chancellor
and former health enz Chia.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
For more from Heather Duplicy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
The Huddle with New Zealand Southby's International realty, local and
global exposure like no other.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Joining me on the huddle this evening is Tim Wilson
from the Maximum Institute. Good evening, Tim, yeay, Ryan, how
are you doing good? Thank you? And Rob Campbell's here
aut chancel the former health ends in Chare. Hey Rob Ry,
how are you? Yeah, really good? Thank you. Good to
have you both on the huddle. Let's start as well,
just as rolling.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
None of the same thing in Wellington, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Oh my goodness, Yeah exactly. It's the Golden Mile, not
the Golden Mile.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It just makes you sad and depressed. And I mean
it's not helped by because there's there's a whole range
of factors. But obviously the public sector lay offs are
having a real effect there. You know, confidence is low.
You've got all of the best cafes closing if they
can't stay open. But they'll turn a corner, they'll turn
a corner.
Speaker 5 (00:50):
But will the council turn a corner? That's the question.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
It's like, oh, we put up you know, keep rates
at ten percent, which you could think, oh, even that's
a bit hi given them a property's gone back twenty
five percent.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Nah, not interested.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
The thing about Wellington is there's only so much land,
especially around the central city, and a lot of it
that is hilly and you can't build on it. And
then you don't really want to be in a big,
sky high apartment because of the earthquake risk.
Speaker 5 (01:14):
So that's true.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
You know, long term, I think things are good. If
you're a property owner in Mellington, you're a cheerleader.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
Ryan.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Hey, let's talk about coming order Robin. The turnaround plan.
They say they will sell off nine hundred older homes
that are damp and moldy, and we will build newer
ones and we will keep you know, there'll be a net.
There will be no net loss of homes. What do
you make of it? I think, Rob, I think you
(01:45):
might have muted your phone in the meantime, Tim, what
do you think of the plan?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Yeah, I've done that with my phone and myself a
few times.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
So look, I realized I was actually really interested with the.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Cheek cheap on the button.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
There we go, check on the button.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Look, I'm actually was interested to hear in the news
where it's like saying, oh, you know, your coying a
order the houses are twelve percent more to build, and
then we hear a builder saying well, that's because they're
better quality than the houses in the market. You think,
oh golly, so why would you buy a house in
the market. I mean, it seems like they're more expensive
to build. They've got two hundred houses in Auckland worth
(02:24):
two million, and fifty eight percent of the demand is
for single bedroom dwellings, whereas only twelve percent of the
capacities there.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Something definitely has to change with coying of order.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, well that sounds like it needs rob Ryan.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
We need a bigger and better caring or It's very
clear that we are going to need more social housing
and more socially provided housing going on into the future.
So to put forward a plan which only produces the
same number of houses is really not addressing the issue
(02:58):
in any way whatsoever. There's nothing wrong with some recycling
of our sets. That makes perfect sense as long as
it's done in an appropriate way. But the underwhelming thing
is that it doesn't recognize any part of the housing
crisis there is in New Zealand availability of housing at
reasonable rents to people who can't afford to buy houses.
That's the issue. That we're going to have to address
(03:20):
and this just bypasses us as if it didn't even exist.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
But that's I think that's the point exactly that the
minister was making in his stand up. He said, fifty
percent of the twenty thousand people who are currently on
the waitlist, fifty percent are already in private housing. It's
just that their incomes aren't keeping up to the point
where they need to be on the list for social housing.
He says, the private housing market is broken and you
(03:45):
need to do a whole bunch of things to fix
the wider market and that will help to alleviate the
social housing weightlist.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Does he have a point, Well, if he thinks that
there is some way in which the private housing market
it is being fixed, it might well be a point.
But we know that's not the case. People are not
building housing for people who are low income earners and
low incomers, as we know from recent stats of falling
(04:13):
further and further behind in terms of the cost of
living in relative and absolute terms. So the government can't
sort of put these things off and say, oh, the
private sector is going to deal with it. The private
sector will build the houses where it can make money
out of doing so, and at the moment it doesn't
seem to be anyway. It makes money out of providing
the sort of housing that we actually need. So no,
(04:35):
it's not going to He can say that as much
as he likes, but frankly and you said it was
at a standard. He must be a stand up comedian.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Rob Campbell, Tim Wilson on the Huddle Back in a second.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Elevate the
Marketing of your.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Home thirteen to Sex. Tim Wilson from the Maximum Institute
and Rob Campbell, aut chancellor and former health ends each
Yair on the Huddle tonight. Welcome back guys, so growth,
We're all going for growth. Nikola Willis was on the
show last night and I kept asking her about the
corporate tax rate. You know, Luxe and ital kept going
on about how much we love Ireland. Well, Ireland have
(05:13):
a very low corporate tax rate. It's twelve and a
half percent. Singapore has seventeen percent. Ours is twenty eight percent.
The minister acknowledged on the show last night we're no
longer competitive on our corporate tax rate. Do you think
Tim it's it would be a smart idea to move
that rate and try and encourage companies to either set
up here or do more business here.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Yeah, I think it would.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
I mean, we've we've got two issues here in our country.
We've got a productivity problem and a capital problem. We're
trouble attracting capital.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
So, like you know, if we.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Were talking about houses before, the way a lot of
investors do it is they let you know, the buy
a house and let it sleep walk to capital gain.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
That doesn't create dynamism in the economy.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
And so if there's a reduction in the corporate tax,
you would think, well, that might actually divert investment into
more productive and more dynamic as its companies, et cetera.
Maybe they might even start a company that can build
houses more cheaply that can assist.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
A low socio x.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
But yeah, I mean Ireland twelve point five. It's but
it's interesting. Sweden and Norway are those Scandinavians they're always
also called they do it pretty well. Theirs is actually
twenty in Sweden percent and twenty two in Norway. Ours
is twenty eight. If the Swedes can do it, one
of us rob.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Well, you won't be surprised. I don't agree with that.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
When you.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Business, or on people for that matter, you've got to
think about the whole tax burden. Company tax is just
one part of it, and relative to some other countries,
our company tax burden looked at on its own, is
relatively high. But this is a race to the bottom.
Cutting corporate tax rates is a kind of a game
that can play for a long time before people get
(06:56):
attracted here. And it's cutting.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
It make you think.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
You know, these businesses, these capitalists that are supposed to
be able to save us, they need an awful lot
of encouragement, don't they. They won't invest unless they have
appropriate rules. They won't come here unless the electricity is cheap.
They won't build houses unless they get tax concessions of
their landlords. Now, they won't come here and set up
businesses unless company tax rate is too low. How come
(07:23):
it's them They're supposed to be the strong element in
our economy. They're the ones that need all the encouragement.
They've got to be coached to do any of the
things that people think they do. Now, you can't coach
people into doing these things. We've got to face the
realities that we need revenue for a whole lot of things,
and if we cut the company tax rate, we will
have to get the tax from somewhere else. And so
(07:46):
people just have to be a bit realistic about that.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
The idea with the ideas that you will grow right.
I mean, look at Ireland as an example. They literally
have so much tax revenue flowing into their coffers that
there's setting up a sovereign wealth fund to dump it into.
I mean, they're drowning in tax revenue because.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
Could they dump it over here please?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
It would be nice. But you know what I'm saying.
And aren't we at risk if we turn our noses
up and say, well, the corporates do this, and the
corporates do that. Are we not at risk of sitting
by and becoming an economic backwater at the bottom of
the Pacific?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Well, you could argue that we are something of an
economic batworder. I prefer to think of ourselves as being
in the center Oceania rather than at the bottom of
the Pacific. But you know, you may have noticed that
Ireland has some advantages that New Zealand has doesn't have,
particularly being packed right next door to the EU, right
next door to the UK, and they have had some
(08:45):
positive return from companies going there who would otherwise have
been somewhere else to get to take advantage of the
lower tax rate. And there'll be some New Zealand income
being diverted to major corporations who have a tax base
in Ireland. But believe me, that will change. That moves
around the world as various people try to have these
smart a ideas, and eventually the answer to this is
(09:10):
not to chase each other to the larwest possible tax rate.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
All right, I just wonder if there's a potential for
a general tax tax take increase. My understanding is JFJFK
cut corporate taxes when he came into sixty one in
the court of the actual total tax take increased in
the United States during the nineteen sixties. So I think
there's lots of facets to this argument.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Well, that was a theory that was floated back at
the time, but it's been pretty much discredited. The idea
that there is some automatic knee jerk response simply doesn't
hold up. There have been one or two instances where
it's been observed, with other instances where that reaction simply
hasn't happened. It depends on a whole lot of other factors.
It's just not an arithmetic outcome, but.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
It's sort of a logical one, isn't it. If you
can go and do business somewhere cheaper, then you would
because you'd make more money and in the process we
would have more money.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
And look, if we lower our tax rates, we will
get some more people here. If we lower our electricity
prices and subsidize them, we might even get an aluminium
smelder here. Oh, hang on, we've got one. If we
do various things. Yes, we can get things here. We
can get people to come here. Will we as New
Zealand benefit from it? Other than an arithmeticuptick and GDP?
(10:24):
Will we benefit as a society from It's entirely a
different question.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
All right, hey, very quickly. This real estate agent Janet Dixon,
she's lost her court battle after she tried to get
out of doing a multi course in Wellington, and basically
she's been found that it's been found that her license
was revoked and that decision is staying. Got any reaction
to that, tim.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yeah, Well, I was glad to hear Rob saying that
coaxing doesn't work I don't think coercion works either. It's
an interesting notion that compelling people to take Treaty t
kung At courses will improve relations and understanding of the treaty.
Compulsion just doesn't work for some people. We saw that
during COVID mandates, and it's interesting the Real Estate Authority
(11:09):
has recognized this because that course is no longer mandatory exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
The law has been changed since then, since this decision
came out today. It was sorry, I should say, in
the interim between when the case was taken and the
decision was made public today. Tim, thank you very much
for coming on the show, as always, Tim Wilson from
the Maximum Institute, and Rob Campbell, the AU two chancellor
and former health enz Chia.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
For more from Heather Duplicy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com