Last Friday (May 16) was Pink Shirt Day in New Zealand which, as we know, is to promote anti-bullying - serving as a reminder that bullying can happen anywhere.
Some people think it only happens in the playground at school but reports show it also occurs in workplaces, with a Massey Uni study in 2023 reported 1 in 4 people experienced bullying at least monthly in the workplace.
Clinical psychologist Dougal Sutherland unpacked the numbers - and offered up some tips as to how it can be dealt with.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Teams podcast
from News Talks That Be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And Time to catch up with clinical psychologists from Umbrella Wellbeing.
Google Sutherland is with us this morning. Hey doogle cure Jack.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hey, you're speaking my language with the with the bird figure.
We've got one, like it's right, I can see it
right now. It's right outside our window and we're lucky
enough to get I just saw a Peter Waka walker before.
But we also we daily get visits from kaka.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Oh do you yeah? You see see that's because you're
you're in Wellington, right, So that's you get them in Wellington,
you get them on you get the kaka on Wayhiki
a little bit on the golf islands, and you don't
get them in Central Aukland very much. The thing I
love about the kaka I reckon it's our most dinosaury bird.
(00:58):
Like the way that I don't know, so, the way
that it kind of holds it holds its body and
and shifts its weight and stuff. This something about the carcas.
I just think it looks so dinosaurian.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
And the screeches that it makes. Yeah, that sounds like
it sounds like I imagine want to tear.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
A deck towards Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, they are.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
They're wonderful.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Some ability to see at night, I think too, because
we can hear them at nights sometimes like in the
middle of night, and they'll be squawking and flying.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
That's often I think. I wonder if it's their feeding time,
because you can see them. That's when they often circle
kind of in the twilight a. You know, So whether
it's or you know that kind of witching our is
a is a good time to be a carco I
think they're feeding, feeding in the wild. Yeah, that's a
good time, good time for them to feed.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Glad that I'm not the only one who gets I
just get like a disproportionate sense of joy out of it.
Yeah and yeah, anyway, Hey, so last week or week
ago now, it was Pink Shirt Day, which is a
day that you know, as we know, promotes anti bullying measures.
And this morning we thought it'd be useful to talk
talk to you about workplace bullying because this is something
(02:08):
that affects a lot of people. And there's a study
from Massive University, a twenty twenty three study that reports
that one in four people experience bullying at least monthly
in the workplace, So who was most affected.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it. We know that people are
the most effective sort of groups of people in the workplace,
and perhaps it's not hugely surprising it's minority groups depend
and that the minority will depend a little bit on
who you are, you know, what, who your workplace is
made up of. But if you're in a minority within
your workplace, particularly, you're more likely to be subject to bullying.
(02:48):
Women and some particular sectors to healthcare, it and also
organizations where they have different like visible layers of ranks.
You know, you've got a uniform and you've got three
pips on your shoulder, and that's better than two pips,
which is better than one. We know that those are
environments where where bullying tends to be a bit more common.
(03:10):
But yeah, one and four people is of a lot
of people, and I think I think it's still some
people don't kind of quite realize they think that bullying
sort of ends in the school yard, but no, it
certainly continues on into the workplace and have a major
effect both on you know, people's mental health, and just
productivity at work as well. If you're always sort of
worrying and looking over your shoulder, you don't to work
(03:32):
very hard.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah. Absolutely, So let's talk about practical advice. What should
you do if you see some you know, something at
work affecting other people that you think makes you kind
of uncomfortable, if you're kind of a you know, a
bystander watching what you think starts workplace bullying.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, and look, we really encourage people to be what
we call active bystanders. Many people will know about the
sort of the passive bystander effect where because there's a
whole lot of people around, no individual takes any action
because it's always you know, we kind of think, oh,
somebody else would do it, somebody el should do it,
or because no one else is doing it, I won't
do it either. But so we really encourage people to
(04:11):
be active by standards where they can, and you do,
I acknowledge that you do need to take into accounts
where you are in an organization, Like if it's your
second day on the job, when you're the most junior
person on the floor, it will be pretty difficult for
you to kind of go up and talk to the
boss and say, hey, that sounds like bullying to me, sir.
So I got kind of got four different things to do. Firstly,
(04:34):
there's the obvious thing, and you can just intervene and say, hey, look,
I'm really uncomfortable with this conversation and maybe you can
I suggest that you go take a pause and we'll
come back to it. So that's the obvious one, is
that you just step in them say that you're uncomfortable.
You could do if you're not quite comfortable doing that,
you could do a kind of distract And what I
(04:56):
mean by that is getting the attention of the person
that is often a person that's being the victim of
the bullying behavior, something like, oh, hey, hey, Jack, I
just I just need to grab you for something. Sorry
to interrupt, I just need to grab you for something
for a second. So you kind of distract from this
and kind of get them out of it, which which
(05:19):
is you know that that that's cool and that that
can be helpful. You might want to delegate, and that
might be particularly if you're feeling you know that there's
a bit of a power hierarchy at play here and
you're at the bottom. You might want to talk to
a colleague or you know, a senior colleague or maybe
even your manager or your leader, just to you know,
somebody who you feel has got a little bit more
(05:39):
sway in the situation. And then lastly, you can always
delay it, like you know, if you if particularly you
know how sometimes you kind of see it a behavior
in the workplace and it feels uncomfortable, but you're not
quite sure what to do, and then you're well off
for the rest of the day and go, I really
think I should Yeah, I really think I should do something, so,
(06:01):
you know, act on that urge and go and perhaps
talk to the person that was that was believe in
and just ask them about that and if there's anything
you can do to support it. So I think, you know,
really wanting to encourage people to be active and make
active choices rather than just ignore it or make the
other thing that we hear often as people making excuses.
(06:22):
You know, it's like oh, you know, just choosing a
random name, Oh that's just Winston, that you'll just kind
of get used to it. You know, it's like, oh,
do we get just get used to that sort of behavior.
So just encouraging people to sort of to act, you know,
you've had your pink cupcakes Friday week ago, and that's
great for all raising awareness. But let's let's not let
(06:45):
it end there. Let's let's make Pink Shirt Day the
start of something that you can actively do at your place. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I think that makes a lot of sense, I reckon,
Given kiwis aren't always the best being confrontational, the distraction
thing could be a good option.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yeah, absolutely, I think that fits off and well with us. Right,
So we don't we're not necessarily great about jumping in. Yeah,
and and and maybe you don't have to, and that's okay,
But I think being active, just not letting it.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Go, really is the critical part.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Hey, thanks Doigle. Appreciated as always. Google Sutherland is a
clinical psychologist with Umbrella Wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live
to News Talks d B from nine am Saturday, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Teams podcast
from News Talks That Be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And Time to catch up with clinical psychologists from Umbrella Wellbeing.
Google Sutherland is with us this morning. Hey doogle cure Jack.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hey, you're speaking my language with the with the bird figure.
We've got one, like it's right, I can see it
right now. It's right outside our window and we're lucky
enough to get I just saw a Peter Waka walker before.
But we also we daily get visits from kaka.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Oh do you yeah? You see see that's because you're
you're in Wellington, right, So that's you get them in Wellington,
you get them on you get the kaka on Wayhiki
a little bit on the golf islands, and you don't
get them in Central Aukland very much. The thing I
love about the kaka I reckon it's our most dinosaury bird.
(00:58):
Like the way that I don't know, so, the way
that it kind of holds it holds its body and
and shifts its weight and stuff. This something about the carcas.
I just think it looks so dinosaurian.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
And the screeches that it makes. Yeah, that sounds like
it sounds like I imagine want to tear.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
A deck towards Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, they are.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
They're wonderful.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Some ability to see at night, I think too, because
we can hear them at nights sometimes like in the
middle of night, and they'll be squawking and flying.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
That's often I think. I wonder if it's their feeding time,
because you can see them. That's when they often circle
kind of in the twilight a. You know, So whether
it's or you know that kind of witching our is
a is a good time to be a carco I
think they're feeding, feeding in the wild. Yeah, that's a
good time, good time for them to feed.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Glad that I'm not the only one who gets I
just get like a disproportionate sense of joy out of it.
Yeah and yeah, anyway, Hey, so last week or week
ago now, it was Pink Shirt Day, which is a
day that you know, as we know, promotes anti bullying measures.
And this morning we thought it'd be useful to talk
talk to you about workplace bullying because this is something
(02:08):
that affects a lot of people. And there's a study
from Massive University, a twenty twenty three study that reports
that one in four people experience bullying at least monthly
in the workplace, So who was most affected.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it. We know that people are
the most effective sort of groups of people in the workplace,
and perhaps it's not hugely surprising it's minority groups depend
and that the minority will depend a little bit on
who you are, you know, what, who your workplace is
made up of. But if you're in a minority within
your workplace, particularly, you're more likely to be subject to bullying.
(02:48):
Women and some particular sectors to healthcare, it and also
organizations where they have different like visible layers of ranks.
You know, you've got a uniform and you've got three
pips on your shoulder, and that's better than two pips,
which is better than one. We know that those are
environments where where bullying tends to be a bit more common.
(03:10):
But yeah, one and four people is of a lot
of people, and I think I think it's still some
people don't kind of quite realize they think that bullying
sort of ends in the school yard, but no, it
certainly continues on into the workplace and have a major
effect both on you know, people's mental health, and just
productivity at work as well. If you're always sort of
worrying and looking over your shoulder, you don't to work
(03:32):
very hard.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah. Absolutely, So let's talk about practical advice. What should
you do if you see some you know, something at
work affecting other people that you think makes you kind
of uncomfortable, if you're kind of a you know, a
bystander watching what you think starts workplace bullying.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, and look, we really encourage people to be what
we call active bystanders. Many people will know about the
sort of the passive bystander effect where because there's a
whole lot of people around, no individual takes any action
because it's always you know, we kind of think, oh,
somebody else would do it, somebody el should do it,
or because no one else is doing it, I won't
do it either. But so we really encourage people to
(04:11):
be active by standards where they can, and you do,
I acknowledge that you do need to take into accounts
where you are in an organization, Like if it's your
second day on the job, when you're the most junior
person on the floor, it will be pretty difficult for
you to kind of go up and talk to the
boss and say, hey, that sounds like bullying to me, sir.
So I got kind of got four different things to do. Firstly,
(04:34):
there's the obvious thing, and you can just intervene and say, hey, look,
I'm really uncomfortable with this conversation and maybe you can
I suggest that you go take a pause and we'll
come back to it. So that's the obvious one, is
that you just step in them say that you're uncomfortable.
You could do if you're not quite comfortable doing that,
you could do a kind of distract And what I
(04:56):
mean by that is getting the attention of the person
that is often a person that's being the victim of
the bullying behavior, something like, oh, hey, hey, Jack, I
just I just need to grab you for something. Sorry
to interrupt, I just need to grab you for something
for a second. So you kind of distract from this
and kind of get them out of it, which which
(05:19):
is you know that that that's cool and that that
can be helpful. You might want to delegate, and that
might be particularly if you're feeling you know that there's
a bit of a power hierarchy at play here and
you're at the bottom. You might want to talk to
a colleague or you know, a senior colleague or maybe
even your manager or your leader, just to you know,
somebody who you feel has got a little bit more
(05:39):
sway in the situation. And then lastly, you can always
delay it, like you know, if you if particularly you
know how sometimes you kind of see it a behavior
in the workplace and it feels uncomfortable, but you're not
quite sure what to do, and then you're well off
for the rest of the day and go, I really
think I should Yeah, I really think I should do something, so,
(06:01):
you know, act on that urge and go and perhaps
talk to the person that was that was believe in
and just ask them about that and if there's anything
you can do to support it. So I think, you know,
really wanting to encourage people to be active and make
active choices rather than just ignore it or make the
other thing that we hear often as people making excuses.
(06:22):
You know, it's like oh, you know, just choosing a
random name, Oh that's just Winston, that you'll just kind
of get used to it. You know, it's like, oh,
do we get just get used to that sort of behavior.
So just encouraging people to sort of to act, you know,
you've had your pink cupcakes Friday week ago, and that's
great for all raising awareness. But let's let's not let
(06:45):
it end there. Let's let's make Pink Shirt Day the
start of something that you can actively do at your place. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I think that makes a lot of sense, I reckon,
Given kiwis aren't always the best being confrontational, the distraction
thing could be a good option.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yeah, absolutely, I think that fits off and well with us. Right,
So we don't we're not necessarily great about jumping in. Yeah,
and and and maybe you don't have to, and that's okay,
But I think being active, just not letting it.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Go, really is the critical part.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Hey, thanks Doigle. Appreciated as always. Google Sutherland is a
clinical psychologist with Umbrella Wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live
to News Talks d B from nine am Saturday, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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