Tami Neilson and Dr Jada Watson: Country musician and musicology professor on the gender inequality in country music and 'The F Word'

Classic female country artists like Dolly Parton, Loretta Lynn, Patsy Cline, and Faith Hill, along with modern-day musicians like Kasey Musgraves, Carrie Underwood, and Shania Twain are pioneers of the genre. 

Despite their influence and hand in elevating country music to the heights it’s reached in the modern era, only 10% of country music airplay and awards are granted to women. 

This is one of the astonishing facts in Tami Neilson’s latest show ‘The F Word’, which combines music with the research of musicology professor Dr Jada Watson. 

The two first met on Twitter, both very vocal about challenging inequality in the country music industry. 

“I followed her because she wrote, you know, these incredible articles," Neilson told Francesca Rudkin. 

“What I loved about her work was that for an artist, she was kind of giving us the tools to feel validated I guess, you know, vindicated.” 

Neilson says she wanted to tell the story of women in country music through song, backing it with the black and white statistics of Watson’s research. 

Despite country being one of the largest genres of music in the United States, women are disproportionally represented, an issue Watson says has historic roots. 

“We have to remember where country came from and the time in which it was developed, and this was 1920’s United States, racially segregated country.” 

“Most cultural institutions were racially segregated and then sort of built into that framework was also different forms of discrimination or oppression,” she said. 

One of the stories they tell in ‘The F Word’ is that of the Carter Family – one of the founding families of the country music genre. 

Watson says that in the recording sessions including people like Jimmie Rodgers, the Carters said that a woman in the lead would never sell. 

“We think of them as the founding family of country music,” Watson told Rudkin. 

“And so that idea of women not selling, or not being possible to sell has really been baked into the fabric of the institution that is country music.” 

The ‘F Word’ will be performed on Saturday, March 8th at Auckland Town Hall. Tickets are available at aaf.co.nz/ 

LISTEN ABOVE 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Tamee podcast
from News Talks at Me Now.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Classic female country artists like Dolly Parton, Loretta and Patsy Kline,
Faith Hill, and even modern day musicians like Casey Musgraves,
Taylor Swift, Kerry Underwood, and Shania Twain are musical pioneers
doing a fair share in elevating the country genre to
the conglomerate it is today. So it may surprise you
that just ten percent of country music airplay and awards

(00:37):
are granted to women. This is just one of the
astonishing facts peppered through Tammy Nielsen's latest show, The F Word,
which combines the research of musicology professor doctor Jada Watson
with music. Tammy Nielsen is New Zealand's own country music pioneer,
having won the twy for Best Country Album three consecutive times,
and doctor Jada Watson has spent the best part of

(00:58):
two decades researching country music in the US. Tammy and
Jada join me now, Good morning, Good morning. I told
you it was quite an introduction.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
That's a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I'm gonna ask probably what might sound like a really
silly question to start off with, but I feel that
the word country music is such a broad term. I
was wondering, maybe, Timmy, if you wanted to start off
by describing country music to someone who maybe isn't so
familiar with the genre.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Oh man, Yeah, country music is. It's a huge umbrella
with a lot of different subgenres under it. So you know,
everyone from Neil Young to Johnny Cash to Patsy Klein
to Taylor Swift. You know, these are, like you would think,

(01:56):
people in completely different musical genres, but they are all
kind of little subgenres under the umbrella of country music,
which is, you know, encompasses what's supposed to be you know,
the stories and the music of the people.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
So Jaida, when you refer to country music, do you
use that broad umbrella as well.

Speaker 4 (02:21):
That's a tough question. Uh, yeah, I really do. But
I probably approach it from a different angle than Tammy
does because she comes from the artist's perspective, so she's
probably thinking musically or sonically, whereas oftentimes I find I'm
thinking institutionally. So you know, I would I would be

(02:43):
thinking about, you know, mainstream channels, like whether or not
artists are operating within the music row system in Nashville
or outside of it and what that what that means. So,
you know, some of the artists that Tammy mentioned definitely
are operating within you know, mainstream Nashville music making process,

(03:06):
and then some aren't. And so that I tend to
I tend to focus on the institutional side of things
through my.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Work Got You Now, Temmy, a journey of feminist country
songs on International Women's Day, That's what the show was
all about. What sparked the idea behind this show.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
Well, I kind of I kind of rope Jada into
this before she realized she was even involved. We both
are very vocal. I think we first met on Twitter,
didn't we Yes, And we're both quite vocal about challenging
inequality in the genre in the country music industry. ME

(03:49):
from an artist's perspective obviously, and Jada from a researcher's perspective.
And I followed her because she wrote, you know this
incredible articles that were in you know, USA Today and
all of the world stone you know, So I kind
of got to know her through her research and publishing

(04:12):
her research on all of these music kind of institutions.
And what I loved about her work was that for
an artist. She was kind of giving us the tools
to feel validated. I guess, you know, vindicated because for years,

(04:36):
everyone in the music industry knows that there's a massive imbalance,
especially in country music, but in music in general. But
there's a huge imbalance in equality in country music, and
it's kind of an unspoken knowledge. Everyone just knows it.
But Jada kind of provided these black and white, this

(05:00):
data research that actually proved that it wasn't just how
it felt, it's actually how it is. And so I
kind of had this idea of marrying her research and
all this these incredible lectures and things that she does,

(05:21):
and kind of intersperse it between the actual music she's
talking about. And so I wanted to tell the story
of women in country music through song, but also backing
it up with just that real, uh you know, juxtaposition
of like you celebrate this wonderful music, but then getting

(05:42):
the reality of what it's like to be an artist,
a female artist, operating in that world.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
So you're going to bring us up, Timmy, and then
you're just gonna draw you. We're gonna drop down, then
we're gonna come up again, then you're gonna drop us down.
I can see. I can see how this is gonna go.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, I always say, I always say, you know, as
I'm a mom, and you can't give your kids medicine
without giving them a little bit of honey. So it's
lots of honey and little bits of mess stuck in there.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
It's so Tommy, just out of interest. Did the facts
that Jada uncovered surprise you? Although, as you say, was
it more just confirmation of what you already knew?

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Well, it wasn't surprising, but it was even though we
know there's an imbalance, seeing it in black and white
and seeing the actual numbers and percentages was still It's
like a punch to the gut, you know, and I

(06:40):
think that you know, yeah, seeing it before my eyes,
even though yeah, not surprising, was still shocking somehow.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, Jada, why is it the way it is? I
might be wrong here, but I was under the the
idea that over the last of twenty years, the fastest
growing radio stuf, especially in the US, we're country music
radio stations, that they were growing so so fast. So
I was really taken back to see that actually, you know,

(07:15):
only ten percent of country music, you know, played on
those on those stations. Or on any station is by women.

Speaker 4 (07:24):
Yeah, this is this is a great question, you know.
I guess country has always been one of the largest formats.
I can't remember the exact number, but there's there's over
two thousand country stations in the United States, and there
there really has always been a very high number of
country stations. It's one of the three pillar formats in

(07:48):
the United States, Black black music radio and pop or
Top forty would be the sort of third pillar. And
these three pillars have their roots in the nineteen twenties
and the variety themed shows that would happen on these
threes of radio types. But I think what's important to

(08:11):
remember is that country music has a you know, it's
celebrating its one hundredth year kind of right now as
we as we head into twenty twenty five. Is that
where we're going right now?

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (08:24):
Yeah, twenty twenty five is the one hundredth anniversary of
the Grand Ole Opry, which is the very first and
and sort of founding country station, which was a variety
theme show, and that still exists today. I think the
piece that's that's important to remember is that these issues
are historic. There are quite systemic issues that pervade society

(08:49):
in general. So you know, we have to remember where
country came from and the time in which it was developed,
and this was nineteen twenties United States, racially segregated country,
wherein all culture, most cultural institutions were racially segrega and
then sort of built into that framework was also different

(09:09):
forms of discrimination or oppression. And so women we have
historically been underrepresented in all cultural spheres, and country music
is just one of those places. And one of the
stories we tell in the F word is of the
Carter family and in the nineteen twenties when they were

(09:30):
you know, part of those original sessions of recording artists
that included Jimmy Rodgers and others, they were told a
woman in the lead will never sell. And yet we
think of them as the founding family of country music.
And so that idea of women not selling or as

(09:51):
not being possible to sell has really been baked into
the fabric of the institution that is country music. And
that's a story that women are constantly battling that their
albums won't sell, that they're songs won't make ratings on radio,
that they can't sell out tours, and so a lot

(10:14):
of the industry has devised all of these sort of
processes and practices behind the scenes, so they won't program
songs by women back to back on radio, and they
still won't do it today. You will very rarely, if ever,
see two women headlining a festival or a tour. Women
are discouraged from touring together. And a lot of these

(10:35):
ideas are very old. They go back to the founding
of the industry and they've just been sort of upheld
for the last century. So you can imagine if they
can't be played back to back, then it would be
impossible to have a high representation on your radio station.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
In the nineties, women were played a lot more on
country radio, and I'm presuming this is the era of
Shania Twain and Faith Hell and the Chicks and leanne
rhymes and things. Are we going backwards since the end?

Speaker 4 (11:07):
Absolutely? Yeah, nineteen ninety was the decade of highest representation
of songs by women in country in general. And while
I don't have direct radio airplay data, I can tell
you that nineteen ninety nine was the peak in terms
of the number of songs by women that charted, and
it was thirty three percent. And so you have this

(11:30):
very slow increase from six point five percent of the
charting songs on the Billboard Hot Country Songs chart in
nineteen fifty eight to this historic peak of thirty three
percent by nineteen ninety nine, and it's declined since.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
So is this an industry that's trying not to change? Yes,
just that I sunt up there.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
Yeah, I mean the bottom line I think for an
industry like country music is that they've made a lot
of money in the way that they've done this business,
and there's no incentive for them to change if it's
going to potentially hurt their bottom line, and they operate

(12:16):
sort of on this assumption that any change is potentially
bad for business.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
So, Temmy, what shape do you think the country music
genre is in in New Zealand? Do we have the
same issues of representation?

Speaker 4 (12:31):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (12:32):
Man, I mean, we don't even have a terrestrial radio station.
We don't have any country music platforms other than Southern
Cross Country on iHeartRadio, which just started this year. We
don't have any country music platforms. So country music in

(12:54):
New Zealand has definitely been a challenge. It is the
music of the people, you know, And I remember doing
a radio interview with on a mainstream station that don't
play my music, but they wanted to talk about my
duet with Willie Nelson and they said to me, oh,
it must be real hard being a country artist here.

(13:14):
You know, people don't really like country music in New Zealand.
And I said, well, the fact that I have the
number one album in the country right now says to
me that the people of New Zealand do love country music.
It's just the fact that we do not have any outlets.
You know, when you look at the top of our

(13:35):
radio charts, it's populated by bands who are predominantly male,
whose music is pumped out on our radio stations twenty
four to seven. You can't go grocery shopping without hearing
them repeatedly, and which is wonderful that New Zealand music
is supported, but it would be lovely to see that
for our female artists as well. But the fact that

(13:59):
you know, they're on the charts as well, but they're
having this extra layer of constant an advertisement for their
songs and their music, and so of course they're topping
the charts continually. So for me, as an independent female
country artist in New Zealand who gets zero radio play.

(14:20):
To be number one on the charts is nothing but fans.
That is no help from industry or radio play, and
so I do have hope in that. There's never been
a time where fans can directly you know, there's not
really any of course, there are gatekeepers and algorithms on

(14:43):
things like Spotify and streaming, but if people love your
music and connect with your music, they don't have to
go through as many gatekeepers as they used to. And
so that's why someone like me can get a number
one album and can still sell out the civic in Auckland.
You know, it's the fans, it's the fan base. But

(15:03):
without that, the industry itself is not set up to
help female artists or country artists succeed in New Zealand.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Tammy, I think this is going to be a ripper
of a show. I mean, you're dynamite and concert and
I think here with the point that you're trying to
make in the emotion that's going to come behind it,
I think it's going to be an absolutely fantastic show.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Thank you, and I'm looking forward to it because Jada
has not been to New Zealand before and she's flying
out for us to do this, so I'll be handling
the singing and the show and Jada will be doing
the heavy lifting with all the information.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
The if Word is on Saturday, match eighth at Auckland
Town Hall. You can get your tickets at AAF dot
co dot nz.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live
to News talks'd B from nine am Saturday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio