Catherine Law: Avonside Girls' High School Principal on the ban on open-plan classrooms, funding to fix them

Schools are keen to move on from open-plan classrooms due to the negative impacts on learning. 

The Government's announced it will give funding to schools for the classrooms to get fixed up. 

They will be able to get the money from a contestable fund based on need to put walls in the barn-style classrooms. 

Christchurch's Avonside Girls' High School Principal Catherine Law told Mike Hosking a few things worked in them, but overall, the experiment was a disaster. 

She says there are some defenders, but the majority of people in education believe they were a mistake. 

Law says they were implemented at a time when inquiry and student-based learning was a focus. 

She says it was a perfect storm, but having 70 students in a classroom meant the importance of teacher-student relationships and routine was lost. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now change in education continues with news that schools will
now be able to apply for money to build some walls.
This is the weirdest thing, so they can have proper
classrooms instead of these barns that they currently operate in.
The open learning classroom era is over, as Erica Stamford
has announced previously. Of course, Katherine Law is the principal
at aben Side Gills High in christ Church and is
with us. Catherine, morning to you.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Oh, good morning, Mike, how this morning?

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Well? Thank you? As a thing, these barn like classrooms
as a thing, as an exercise tenant was perfect. Couldn't
have wanted anything better. One that's been a disaster. What's
your number?

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Oh, probably a two, Mike. I mean, there'd be in
a few bits that we would want to keep. You know,
there's always some things that work and you think, oh, yeah,
that's a good aspect, like some breakout spaces things like that,
But definitely a too.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Widely accepted in education that it was a mistake or
would there still be some defenders.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
I think there are some defenders, and but I think
you know, if you looked at the majority of people
in education, they would say widely, even to be a mistake,
and certainly research back set up.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
What do you reckon in your expert opinion? Have the
lack of walls done to a kid's education if you
toss it in the mix of all the other things
you're having to deal with in terms of you know,
teaching a kid you know how to succeed.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, absolutely, Mike. It came at a time when other
things came in as well, so an ideological time when
you know, open playing classrooms, students centered learning, inquiry based learning.
And what all of those things did together was they
were sort of perfect storm in which we suddenly had
seventy students together in a classroom, everybody working on projects.

(01:40):
And what we lost was the real importance of relationships
with students. We lost the importance of routines, we lost
sort of emotional safety. And what we gained was a
whole lot of young people who are you know, our
PIESA results show, other results show haven't learnt very much.
But also you know, if if you're coming in with trauma,

(02:01):
if you're in neurodiverse, you know, lots of students, for
lots of students, this is not a success.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
How much money do you need for your walls.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Oh, if we could get one and a half million,
which on the scale of building a school, you know,
I mean, we're not talking about a new school here,
but if we could get a million to a million
and a half, we could do so much at Avonside
to improve achievement and attendance and to improve teaching and
learning for our young people.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
When you sign a million and a half, that's your school,
and there are hundreds of schools and there's thousands of walls,
and it's like.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the point is, do you
do that now? Do you invest now and get that sorted?
Because these are the young people who are going to
run our country. They're going to they're going to need
good education. And we're bringing a new curriculum. We've got
all sorts of changing, all sorts of things changing, But
we know we know so much more about how students learn,

(02:55):
and we know so much more about trauma inform practice.
So why would we not invest now?

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Were you one of the principles who wrote to Erika
Stanford the other day not wanting these changes?

Speaker 2 (03:05):
By the way, no, I wasn't nae good.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
And we'll get you back on the program. In that case,
nice to talk to you, Katherine Catherine Law, who's the
principal of Abnside Girls high eighty nine out of four
hundred and twenty. Let's get a headline. For more from
the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks it'd
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