The Housing Minister believes homelessness data can be hard to analyse as there's no one-size-fits-all description.
The Government's June Homelessness Insights suggests communities countrywide are facing more pressure, with people living on the streets.
Councils and support services say rough sleeping's increased everywhere, doubling by some measures over 24 months.
Minister Chris Bishop told Mike Hosking homelessness has been a lasting issue, and deals with complex issues.
He says sometimes it encompasses challenges that include mental health, addiction, and family violence.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've got the much anticipated Homelessness in Science report learly
five thousand a living rough across the country, which is
a thirty seven percent jump between twenty eighteen and twenty
twenty three. Auckland's up ninety percent, Taranaki's up two hundred
and fifty, although we'll question that in the moment. Chris
Bishop's the Housing Ministry. So the two hundred and fifty, Chris,
I mean we've got to be careful about a place
like Taranaki. I mean that could be twelve to thirty
two people, couldn't it without you.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Know, it could be The numbers bounce around from region
to region, and obviously we're deading with rough sleepers, so
the count is never going to be accurate. So that
the Homelessness Insights Report we released yesterday is based on
observational data from groups like the Orkan City Mission, Wellington
Downtown Community Ministry and others. But it's clear that we
have a problem. But this is a long running problem.
(00:42):
You know, New Zealand has had a problem with homelessness
for ten to fifteen years. The numbers increased from twenty
thirteen to eighteen. They increased from twenty eighteen to twenty
three and you know observationally they're up again in the
last couple of years.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
What is your observation around that clarity do you have
do you can you say anything definitive with these numbers
or it's just a vibe.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Well, we know that we have a problem with rough sleeping.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
The government spends about half a billion dollars a year
on support for people in these situations. That ranges from
emergency housing through to transitional We've got a product called
Housing First which puts people into a home and then
wraps housing support around them and make sure they can
actually stay in the house.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
We've been running that since twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
That was launched under the Bill English government continued under
the last government. That program exists today and is doing good,
good work in places like Hamilton and Auckland, for example.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
But you're dealing with people with often.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Quite complex challenges, right. Sometimes they've got mental health challenges,
Sometimes they've got addiction challenges. Sometimes they've got trauma in
their past, family violence sometimes as well. So it's important
you know, there's no one definition of who becomes homeless
and how There's a range of circumstances, and the question
ready for government is are we making sure that the
support is as effective as possible? And to be honest,
(02:02):
it's not at the moment, which is why we've got
the numbers that we have. So that's why we're taking
a really good lot and saying rodeo, no one wants
to live in a country in which people sleep rough
on the streets. How do we get the system responding
to that need better?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Okay, So, having said that, how much of its choice?
I watched Mitchell and TAPSI wander down the streets of
road ru the other day, and they seem to suggest
that many people actually choose this lifestyle. Is that fair
or not?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, if you go to MSD and walk in and
say I don't have a place to sleep, I'm sleeping
under a bridge. I need help, you will get help.
There is any number of different things that MSD will do.
They will you potentially end up in emergency housing. You
may potentially be offered a place in a transitional house
with a provider, which is another form of sort of
(02:46):
temporary accommodation. You may be offered a housing first place.
They may work with you to try and work out
exactly why you're living under the.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Bridge, for example.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
But you're dealing with again, you're dealing with people who
are a bit distrustful often of the guvern and of
state apparatus, so getting them to do that is sometimes
a challenge.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Jim, But how much of that? How much is this
about politics? Because at the end of the day, they're
going to the opposition, any opposition is going to milk
this and they're going to go, you went hard on
emergency housing, you went hard on state housing, and look
what happens, people end up in cars.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
This is on you.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, the opposition demanded we release this report, which we're
always going to do and we've now done, and they
claimed it would show that because we've tightened up on
emergency housing, that has led to arise in homelessness. That's
not what the report shows. By the way, hasn't stopped
them claiming that that's the case. But the report actually
says that it's not possible to work out policy changes
and link that to in a reported rise and rough
(03:42):
sleeping on the streets. The report doesn't actually say anything
that they think it shows. And I encourage them to
actually read the report. As I say, this is a
long running issue for New Zealand, and look, if emergency
housing was the answer, might I put it to you
like this, Between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty three, as
a government, we spent one point four billion dollars housing
people and motels one.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Point four billion.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
We pumped billions and billions and billions of dollars into COMA,
AURA and other programs, and homelessness increased. So it's not
the answer. Money is not necessarily the answer.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I don't want to make this too political, but I'm
watching question Time yesterday and I don't know that Ginny
gave you so many free hits by the end of it.
Do they not think? Do they not think of what
they're asking and what you're potentially going to say by
way of an answer.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Ah, I don't know, but I got to say I did.
I did quite enjoy it. I mean, the sort of
delicious bit of it all is that, you know, a
week ago they were going on about how everyone's losing
their jobs and construction. It's not true, by the way,
but they're complaining about it, and then this this weight
they're asking me. You know, there's not enough workers to
meet the construction pipeline.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
It's like you can't have it both ways. Work it out.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Other people losing their jobs and there are enough workers
in it. There's nuts and we got all these projects
under why it's going to be good over the next
six months. You know, I've got a lot of sod
turnings of a lot of projects around the country.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Get people and work well.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I appreciate the time as always. Chris Bishop, Housing Minister
with us this morning. If you can be bothered. This
is what fascinates me about question time is I don't
know what drives the opposition in their thinking, but the
idea of question time is to elicit a piece of
information that, in really superficial terms, will allow you to
look good or score you some political points. And all
(05:21):
Ginny did and there were three or four of these questions,
just question after question after question, and Bishop just stood
up and, apart from laughing like he just did, just
embarrassed her. It was the weirdest thing.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
We've got the much anticipated Homelessness in Science report learly
five thousand a living rough across the country, which is
a thirty seven percent jump between twenty eighteen and twenty
twenty three. Auckland's up ninety percent, Taranaki's up two hundred
and fifty, although we'll question that in the moment. Chris
Bishop's the Housing Ministry. So the two hundred and fifty, Chris,
I mean we've got to be careful about a place
like Taranaki. I mean that could be twelve to thirty
two people, couldn't it without you.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Know, it could be The numbers bounce around from region
to region, and obviously we're deading with rough sleepers, so
the count is never going to be accurate. So that
the Homelessness Insights Report we released yesterday is based on
observational data from groups like the Orkan City Mission, Wellington
Downtown Community Ministry and others. But it's clear that we
have a problem. But this is a long running problem.
(00:42):
You know, New Zealand has had a problem with homelessness
for ten to fifteen years. The numbers increased from twenty
thirteen to eighteen. They increased from twenty eighteen to twenty
three and you know observationally they're up again in the
last couple of years.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
What is your observation around that clarity do you have
do you can you say anything definitive with these numbers
or it's just a vibe.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Well, we know that we have a problem with rough sleeping.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
The government spends about half a billion dollars a year
on support for people in these situations. That ranges from
emergency housing through to transitional We've got a product called
Housing First which puts people into a home and then
wraps housing support around them and make sure they can
actually stay in the house.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
We've been running that since twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
That was launched under the Bill English government continued under
the last government. That program exists today and is doing good,
good work in places like Hamilton and Auckland, for example.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
But you're dealing with people with often.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Quite complex challenges, right. Sometimes they've got mental health challenges,
Sometimes they've got addiction challenges. Sometimes they've got trauma in
their past, family violence sometimes as well. So it's important
you know, there's no one definition of who becomes homeless
and how There's a range of circumstances, and the question
ready for government is are we making sure that the
support is as effective as possible? And to be honest,
(02:02):
it's not at the moment, which is why we've got
the numbers that we have. So that's why we're taking
a really good lot and saying rodeo, no one wants
to live in a country in which people sleep rough
on the streets. How do we get the system responding
to that need better?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Okay, So, having said that, how much of its choice?
I watched Mitchell and TAPSI wander down the streets of
road ru the other day, and they seem to suggest
that many people actually choose this lifestyle. Is that fair
or not?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, if you go to MSD and walk in and
say I don't have a place to sleep, I'm sleeping
under a bridge. I need help, you will get help.
There is any number of different things that MSD will do.
They will you potentially end up in emergency housing. You
may potentially be offered a place in a transitional house
with a provider, which is another form of sort of
(02:46):
temporary accommodation. You may be offered a housing first place.
They may work with you to try and work out
exactly why you're living under the.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Bridge, for example.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
But you're dealing with again, you're dealing with people who
are a bit distrustful often of the guvern and of
state apparatus, so getting them to do that is sometimes
a challenge.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Jim, But how much of that? How much is this
about politics? Because at the end of the day, they're
going to the opposition, any opposition is going to milk
this and they're going to go, you went hard on
emergency housing, you went hard on state housing, and look
what happens, people end up in cars.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
This is on you.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, the opposition demanded we release this report, which we're
always going to do and we've now done, and they
claimed it would show that because we've tightened up on
emergency housing, that has led to arise in homelessness. That's
not what the report shows. By the way, hasn't stopped
them claiming that that's the case. But the report actually
says that it's not possible to work out policy changes
and link that to in a reported rise and rough
(03:42):
sleeping on the streets. The report doesn't actually say anything
that they think it shows. And I encourage them to
actually read the report. As I say, this is a
long running issue for New Zealand, and look, if emergency
housing was the answer, might I put it to you
like this, Between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty three, as
a government, we spent one point four billion dollars housing
people and motels one.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Point four billion.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
We pumped billions and billions and billions of dollars into COMA,
AURA and other programs, and homelessness increased. So it's not
the answer. Money is not necessarily the answer.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I don't want to make this too political, but I'm
watching question Time yesterday and I don't know that Ginny
gave you so many free hits by the end of it.
Do they not think? Do they not think of what
they're asking and what you're potentially going to say by
way of an answer.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Ah, I don't know, but I got to say I did.
I did quite enjoy it. I mean, the sort of
delicious bit of it all is that, you know, a
week ago they were going on about how everyone's losing
their jobs and construction. It's not true, by the way,
but they're complaining about it, and then this this weight
they're asking me. You know, there's not enough workers to
meet the construction pipeline.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
It's like you can't have it both ways. Work it out.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Other people losing their jobs and there are enough workers
in it. There's nuts and we got all these projects
under why it's going to be good over the next
six months. You know, I've got a lot of sod
turnings of a lot of projects around the country.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Get people and work well.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I appreciate the time as always. Chris Bishop, Housing Minister
with us this morning. If you can be bothered. This
is what fascinates me about question time is I don't
know what drives the opposition in their thinking, but the
idea of question time is to elicit a piece of
information that, in really superficial terms, will allow you to
look good or score you some political points. And all
(05:21):
Ginny did and there were three or four of these questions,
just question after question after question, and Bishop just stood
up and, apart from laughing like he just did, just
embarrassed her. It was the weirdest thing.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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