August 13, 2025 • 8 mins
Labour leader Chris Hipkins says he's already answered the Covid Inquiry Commissioner's questions, negating any need for him to appear publicly.
Hipkins and former Ministers Dame Jacinda Ardern, Grant Robertson, and Ayesha Verrall declined open hearings, leading the second part of the inquiry to be called off.
Hipkins says lawyers raised several issues around them appearing, including setting a precedent and possible abuse.
He told Mike Hosking he doesn't see the point in repeating the process.
Hipkins says the Commissioners themselves have said former ministers have answered every single question put to them and they are seeking no further information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So how about the call for the Labour Party not
to front for the COVID inquiry from just Cindra Don
to Chrishipkins, Grant Robertson, Nation Beryl. No one is willing
to show up publicly. So next week's hearings are off.
Chris Hipkins is with us. Good morning, Good morning mate.
Do you realize how shocking this looks?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
What's that, Mike?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
You not turning out?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Well? I have turned up. I've turned up to the
Royal Commission twice. I was interviewed by the first Royal Commission.
I was interviewed by the Second Royal Commission, and when
they sent through written questions, I gave them about twenty
pages of answers. As the Royal Commission themselves said yesterday,
I've answered every question that they've asked. They're given them
every piece of information that they've asked for.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
My apologies. You're not turning up in public well, I.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Mean the Royal Commission themselves have said that they're not
holding any further public hearings. They've set out a variety
of reasons for their and one of the things that
they said in their minute of the decision that they
took not told through the public hearings was that the ministers,
the former ministers concerned, have answered every question that's been
put to them.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Right, So is it on Ellingworth or is it on
you to be the better person?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, I mean, ultimately the Royal Commission made this decision themselves.
But you know, let's be clear. I've appeared before them,
I gave them. They asked me to be available for
two hours of interviews, which I did and then they
ran out of questions after about it at the time.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
But they may be inconfident. I don't know because I've
not seen it and I've not seen you either. That's
the whole point of this. People would like you to
be seen, to be held to some level of account.
Is there something wrong with that?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well, Mike, you've got the highest rating breakfast show in
New Zealand and here I am answering your questions. If
you've got questions about the COVID response, fire away.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
But if it's the mic Hosking Breakfast COVID inquiry, that's fine,
but it isn't. There's a Royal Commission set up or
a COVID inquiry set up in this country to get
to the bottom of one of the most important events
in this country's history and you don't even want to
front publicly. But I've ever said no, no, no, I
know what you've said. But you're not fronting publicly. You're
(01:58):
actively avoiding fronting publicly.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well I'm here now. I mean, it's great that you've
invited me on for the second time this year, you know,
and every day I appear before the media and I
answer questions and people can ask you what if they
love it?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
But that's an acceptable excuse, Chris, Then we don't need
an inquiry. Is that what you're saying, We don't need
an inquiry just all turn up on the media.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, I mean the first Royal Commission, I think answered
all of the questions on COVID very well. That was
quite critical of the previous government. They indicated things that
we thought we had we could have done better. And
it's difficult to know what the second Royal Commission is
going to say different to that. But I mean, let's
let's wait and see what they come.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
But is that part is that part of your problem,
part of the problem that you called it a stitch up?
This is the part two you think is for conspiracy.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Theorists well, I mean the second Royal Commission themselves have
said that we've answered every single question that they've put
to them and they have no further information that they
wanted to ask. When they said that they wanted to
do the hearing again to basically repeat the episodes, they
said that there's an exactly the same questions and that
there wasn't any further information.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
They I mean, so you don't you don't well, you
don't see the optics of it.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, I mean if I said, the Royal Commission themselves
have said that we've out frequently, but I.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Don't know what those questions are. I don't know where
the illing wurst worth worth of pinchers salt. I wouldn't
have a clue because no one can see it.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
But all of that is there's going to be publican but.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
It's not at the moment, and there's no point. There's
no point saying it'll be made public and then with
the benefit of hindsight we can go, hold on, they
didn't ask this, and you didn't say this, and we
wouldn't mind another go why can't we just see it away?
You know, the British system, for example, you get to
see what's going on publicly elected officials get to be
held to account publicly.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, that's not been New Zealand's past practice. So no
Royal Commission has either held public hearings involving ministers before
following the christ Church earthquake, for example, following the terrorists
tech in christ Church. The practice the current Royal Commissioner
following is the practice every Royal Commission in New Zealand's histor.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Right, So you you agree with the idea that you
shouldn't be held to account publicly? This is this is
a good way of conducting business and people should just
accept that as it is.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I'm held to account publicly every day.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Mike, No, but not in the sense of the specific commission.
Should Ellingworth call you? Because I understand he's got the
power to do.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So, But that's that's a question, not a question to.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Be I know, should he What would your advise to
him be?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, give royal commissions advice. I answer their questions and
that's executly what I've done.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Okay, did you coalesce with Robertson in Verel and a
Deern to make this sort of a collective decision?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
We had representatives in common who corresponded with the Royal Commission.
But each of us individually briefed that representative.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Who's the representative.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Well at the moment that's been Dentons.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Who of the company?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
You mean, yes, that is great.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Okay, So they advi ased you not to appear or
you advised them that you wouldn't be appearing.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, see again, you're mischaracterizing it said.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
It was question no appearing publicly, just just for future reference,
for the future, for the rest of the questions in
this interview, I'm referring to you appearing publicly. Right, So
was it Denton's who advised you not to appear publicly
or did you advise them?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well, the thing is you're misrepresenting my position, Mike, I
have appeared before the Commission.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You have not appeared publicly before the Commission.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, I have. I have answered all of the Commission.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I'm not saying that I've said you have not appeared
publicly before the Commission. Did they advise you not to
appear publicly Denton's.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I indicated to the Commission that I.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Did Denton's. Dent Did Denton's advise you not to appear publicly?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, one of the things that Denton's did raise well us.
They raised several issues. One was that you know, no
ministers had previously done this, and that it would create
a precedent if we did so. The second thing they
raised was concerned about the fact that people who had
already appeared publicly before the Royal Commission had been the
subject of significant abuse, and that is concerned that the
(06:14):
Commission themselves, the Royal Commission themselves have acknowledged and the
decision that they took yesterday.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
So the spin doctors told you not to appear publicly
and you went, thanks very much, I'll take that advice.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
No, I don't think that's correct.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Well, it's just what you explained to me. You said
that there were troubles with people appearing and that appeared
to be up your alley, and you said, as a
result of that, now I won't be appearing publicly.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Well that's your spin on, don't I.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Well, is it their spin and their advice to you?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Well, I I just set out what their advice to
be was, so.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
That well, just for the record, their advice appeared to
be that if you appear publicly it might not go
well for you.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
No, that's not what that's not the advice. I mean,
there's part of the advice that I can't comment on.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
But who's for Dents? Because who's paying for dentates the
public right, So why can't you comment.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, because then I would be here before a court.
Why because when the court issues a suppression order that
says you can't talk about something, you can't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
So who's issued the suppression order? Do you have an
agreement with Dentons that you don't talk publicly about what
they tell you?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
There are issues relating to the safety of individuals around
the COVID nineteen response and public commentary on it that
the courts have indicated I cannot comment on, or anyone
including you cannot comment on, and therefore we can't comment
on them.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So even though we're paying for the spin doctors, and
the spin doctors are telling you not to appear publicly,
you sit here this morning in front of the biggest
radio audience in this country, the same audience you will
go to next year in an election campaign, and go
nothing to see here. I've done my job well.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You haven't asked me many questions. As I said, feel
free every day. I'm available to answer any questions on
any matter of the COVID response. And you've chosen not
to ask me any but you're welcome to at any point.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Does Jacindra Dune deserve to answer some questions to the
public as well?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, that's that's a question for her.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
She doesn't talk to you, She doesn't talk to New
Zealand media anymore, apart from when she's promoting a book.
So as a person who knows her well, does should
she be answering questions?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Not to be fear Mike, I don't think she's spoken
to you quite some time. No, I, but those are
questions for her, not for me.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
All right, Listen, I got to go Chris Hopkins, Denton's
and lawyers by the way, just to clear that up
as opposed to spend doctors, although lawyers of course, as
we I think, no, can't be spent doctors, but just
to make that clear. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to news Talks. It'd be from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
So how about the call for the Labour Party not
to front for the COVID inquiry from just Cindra Don
to Chrishipkins, Grant Robertson, Nation Beryl. No one is willing
to show up publicly. So next week's hearings are off.
Chris Hipkins is with us. Good morning, Good morning mate.
Do you realize how shocking this looks?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
What's that, Mike?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
You not turning out?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Well? I have turned up. I've turned up to the
Royal Commission twice. I was interviewed by the first Royal Commission.
I was interviewed by the Second Royal Commission, and when
they sent through written questions, I gave them about twenty
pages of answers. As the Royal Commission themselves said yesterday,
I've answered every question that they've asked. They're given them
every piece of information that they've asked for.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
My apologies. You're not turning up in public well, I.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Mean the Royal Commission themselves have said that they're not
holding any further public hearings. They've set out a variety
of reasons for their and one of the things that
they said in their minute of the decision that they
took not told through the public hearings was that the ministers,
the former ministers concerned, have answered every question that's been
put to them.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Right, So is it on Ellingworth or is it on
you to be the better person?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, I mean, ultimately the Royal Commission made this decision themselves.
But you know, let's be clear. I've appeared before them,
I gave them. They asked me to be available for
two hours of interviews, which I did and then they
ran out of questions after about it at the time.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
But they may be inconfident. I don't know because I've
not seen it and I've not seen you either. That's
the whole point of this. People would like you to
be seen, to be held to some level of account.
Is there something wrong with that?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well, Mike, you've got the highest rating breakfast show in
New Zealand and here I am answering your questions. If
you've got questions about the COVID response, fire away.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
But if it's the mic Hosking Breakfast COVID inquiry, that's fine,
but it isn't. There's a Royal Commission set up or
a COVID inquiry set up in this country to get
to the bottom of one of the most important events
in this country's history and you don't even want to
front publicly. But I've ever said no, no, no, I
know what you've said. But you're not fronting publicly. You're
(01:58):
actively avoiding fronting publicly.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well I'm here now. I mean, it's great that you've
invited me on for the second time this year, you know,
and every day I appear before the media and I
answer questions and people can ask you what if they
love it?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
But that's an acceptable excuse, Chris, Then we don't need
an inquiry. Is that what you're saying, We don't need
an inquiry just all turn up on the media.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, I mean the first Royal Commission, I think answered
all of the questions on COVID very well. That was
quite critical of the previous government. They indicated things that
we thought we had we could have done better. And
it's difficult to know what the second Royal Commission is
going to say different to that. But I mean, let's
let's wait and see what they come.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
But is that part is that part of your problem,
part of the problem that you called it a stitch up?
This is the part two you think is for conspiracy.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Theorists well, I mean the second Royal Commission themselves have
said that we've answered every single question that they've put
to them and they have no further information that they
wanted to ask. When they said that they wanted to
do the hearing again to basically repeat the episodes, they
said that there's an exactly the same questions and that
there wasn't any further information.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
They I mean, so you don't you don't well, you
don't see the optics of it.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, I mean if I said, the Royal Commission themselves
have said that we've out frequently, but I.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Don't know what those questions are. I don't know where
the illing wurst worth worth of pinchers salt. I wouldn't
have a clue because no one can see it.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
But all of that is there's going to be publican but.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
It's not at the moment, and there's no point. There's
no point saying it'll be made public and then with
the benefit of hindsight we can go, hold on, they
didn't ask this, and you didn't say this, and we
wouldn't mind another go why can't we just see it away?
You know, the British system, for example, you get to
see what's going on publicly elected officials get to be
held to account publicly.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, that's not been New Zealand's past practice. So no
Royal Commission has either held public hearings involving ministers before
following the christ Church earthquake, for example, following the terrorists
tech in christ Church. The practice the current Royal Commissioner
following is the practice every Royal Commission in New Zealand's histor.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Right, So you you agree with the idea that you
shouldn't be held to account publicly? This is this is
a good way of conducting business and people should just
accept that as it is.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I'm held to account publicly every day.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Mike, No, but not in the sense of the specific commission.
Should Ellingworth call you? Because I understand he's got the
power to do.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So, But that's that's a question, not a question to.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Be I know, should he What would your advise to
him be?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, give royal commissions advice. I answer their questions and
that's executly what I've done.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Okay, did you coalesce with Robertson in Verel and a
Deern to make this sort of a collective decision?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
We had representatives in common who corresponded with the Royal Commission.
But each of us individually briefed that representative.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Who's the representative.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Well at the moment that's been Dentons.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Who of the company?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
You mean, yes, that is great.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Okay, So they advi ased you not to appear or
you advised them that you wouldn't be appearing.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, see again, you're mischaracterizing it said.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
It was question no appearing publicly, just just for future reference,
for the future, for the rest of the questions in
this interview, I'm referring to you appearing publicly. Right, So
was it Denton's who advised you not to appear publicly
or did you advise them?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well, the thing is you're misrepresenting my position, Mike, I
have appeared before the Commission.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You have not appeared publicly before the Commission.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, I have. I have answered all of the Commission.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I'm not saying that I've said you have not appeared
publicly before the Commission. Did they advise you not to
appear publicly Denton's.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I indicated to the Commission that I.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Did Denton's. Dent Did Denton's advise you not to appear publicly?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, one of the things that Denton's did raise well us.
They raised several issues. One was that you know, no
ministers had previously done this, and that it would create
a precedent if we did so. The second thing they
raised was concerned about the fact that people who had
already appeared publicly before the Royal Commission had been the
subject of significant abuse, and that is concerned that the
(06:14):
Commission themselves, the Royal Commission themselves have acknowledged and the
decision that they took yesterday.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
So the spin doctors told you not to appear publicly
and you went, thanks very much, I'll take that advice.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
No, I don't think that's correct.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Well, it's just what you explained to me. You said
that there were troubles with people appearing and that appeared
to be up your alley, and you said, as a
result of that, now I won't be appearing publicly.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Well that's your spin on, don't I.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Well, is it their spin and their advice to you?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Well, I I just set out what their advice to
be was, so.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
That well, just for the record, their advice appeared to
be that if you appear publicly it might not go
well for you.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
No, that's not what that's not the advice. I mean,
there's part of the advice that I can't comment on.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
But who's for Dents? Because who's paying for dentates the
public right, So why can't you comment.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, because then I would be here before a court.
Why because when the court issues a suppression order that
says you can't talk about something, you can't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
So who's issued the suppression order? Do you have an
agreement with Dentons that you don't talk publicly about what
they tell you?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
There are issues relating to the safety of individuals around
the COVID nineteen response and public commentary on it that
the courts have indicated I cannot comment on, or anyone
including you cannot comment on, and therefore we can't comment
on them.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So even though we're paying for the spin doctors, and
the spin doctors are telling you not to appear publicly,
you sit here this morning in front of the biggest
radio audience in this country, the same audience you will
go to next year in an election campaign, and go
nothing to see here. I've done my job well.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You haven't asked me many questions. As I said, feel
free every day. I'm available to answer any questions on
any matter of the COVID response. And you've chosen not
to ask me any but you're welcome to at any point.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Does Jacindra Dune deserve to answer some questions to the
public as well?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, that's that's a question for her.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
She doesn't talk to you, She doesn't talk to New
Zealand media anymore, apart from when she's promoting a book.
So as a person who knows her well, does should
she be answering questions?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Not to be fear Mike, I don't think she's spoken
to you quite some time. No, I, but those are
questions for her, not for me.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
All right, Listen, I got to go Chris Hopkins, Denton's
and lawyers by the way, just to clear that up
as opposed to spend doctors, although lawyers of course, as
we I think, no, can't be spent doctors, but just
to make that clear. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to news Talks. It'd be from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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