June 8, 2025 • 10 mins
Mike Hoskings and Prime Minister Chris Luxon sat down in the studio this morning for a discussion on electricity and gas in New Zealand.
“The oil and gas ban was one of the dumbest, most insanest moves I’ve seen happen.” said the PM this morning.
According to Luxon, New Zealand must steer back away from coal in favour of gas as a source of energy. “We’re the only country I’m aware of in the world that’s actually transitioning from gas to coal.” Which Luxon said is “twice as bad as gas.”
The PM says his plan for future-proofing New Zealand’s energy grid is essential for supporting planned datacenters and other high-energy usage projects.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Prime Minister joins us for this Monday morning. Good
to see you.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Good to see you too, Mike.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Right, So I've got a nineteen ninety three rd eighty
five speed Edge or no, No, it's well it might
because I'm sick of getting the warrant, one of the
things your government promised. So I take it into the
garage on Friday and it needs to warrant. And one
of the things your government promised was you were going
to do twelve month warrants. Yeah, because well when are
you doing it? Because I went and on Friday one
(00:25):
of those conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Lately, you announced this and when are you exactly I
want to tell you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I know we.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Announced it because it's something I'm passionate about. I've got
a nineteen sixty six Riley Elf which has done sixty
six thousand miles. I've probably done one thousand miles and
ten years in it or something.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So is it manual?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yes, manual? Yeah, so at a four speed? It's a
four speed. It's one thousand cc Mini with a boot
on the back of it. It was my first car
I had in christ Church was a sixty two Riley
Off which I crashed going to see Amanda one night,
or someone reversed into me and got written off and
I got sentimently attached to it, so bought another one.
But classic car owners actually look after their cars really well.
They do really few sort of miles and actually we've
(01:02):
got to make it much easier for them. Yes, exactly,
So it's coming. I just can't tell you. It's like,
what was the last thing you were harassing me about?
Was that freeway north? About when's it coming one and ten?
Case it'll come from.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
My eighteen year old was driving home from the country
over the weekend and she called us, spacetimed us and
she said, hey, do you realize it's now one hundred
and ten k's on the road And we said, yes,
how long have you been on it? And she goes,
it's just started to one hundred and ten. I said,
let's stay on the phone call and watch it go
seconds later, watch it go back to one hundred And
(01:33):
she said, why did they do that? And I said,
very good question.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
The my Costing Memorial Motorway North.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So why when did you got to use three meters
of it? Exactly? So why can't you tell me when
you're doing the twelve month more.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I tell you what I'll get out of this interview,
or you just start it is at some point we've
announced it. No, that's all done. It's just I can't
remember when it's coming out, but it is coming absolutely absolutely.
There is like a gazilli and I go to all
these Britain Euroclassic car shows from time to time on
I get a free moment, and honestly, these guys look
after these cars brilliantly. They lead all this hassle that
they community.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Precisely the Blue Bridge thing. How seriously did you guys
consider using them instead of a ferry.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Oh, we looked at a range of different options, but
ultimately you need to have a solution that we can
rely on. You've got to think of the Cook Straight
as a continuation of State Highway one, and you need
certainty of supply on the straight. And as a result,
that's why we went the way we did.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Okay, the EU deal around, I'm reading about deforestation these
new rules for the EU. So everything we send to
the EU under this c FTA has a deforestation tag
to it, and we've got to show that we didn't
DeForest the country by growing our cows and our sheep
and our trees. How problem One why do we sign
up to that? And two? How problematic is that going
(02:51):
to be?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Do you think, Well, I don't think it's problematic. I
mean we've got a third of this country and the
docker state, right. I mean, there's very few countries that
would have that much wildlife protection and and biodiversity that
we've got in this country. I was a bit frustrated
last week because essentially the reality is there is no
doubt about it. I've looked at the numbers. We are
the most carbon efficient, for example, farmers in the world right,
(03:12):
And everyone's been saying I got to shut down farming
because it's going you know, the reality is known, and
we can actually grow farming. We can increase production. We
have this incredible science, technology innovation. This is not just ideas.
These are real projects that are going to make a
big difference on that make our farmers more productive, make
us a lot more innovation. So I reckon anything any more.
Farming in New Zealand is good for the world because
it actually lowers greenhouse gaes sumissions is the way to
(03:34):
think about it, and we've got to do a bit
of reprogramming around it.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
So you don't think it's going to be a problem.
It's my main no.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
No, it will make sure we're complied. But I think
New Zealand has done a great job farming and itself
is coming down. We're actually going to put limits on
the forestation. We've got a lot of farm to forest conversions.
As you know, that's changed the complexion of our rural communities.
It's an externality that's not helping and as a result,
we're going to make some changes around what you can
(03:59):
can't on the land.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Last week's announcement on the lack of gas, how alarmed
do you become each time they say this.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, I think this is one of the great tragedies
of New Zealand. We honestly have abundant natural resources and
we should not have an energy problem. And the reality
is this, at eighty seven percent, we're a top ten
country on renewabooks. We want to double that because we're
going to need it with data centers and other things.
But you've got to face up to the reality is
we are going to need gas for several decades to go,
you know, because you need that certainty of supply. The
(04:27):
oil and gas ban from twenty eighteen was one of
the dumbest, most insanest moves I've seen happen, where they
didn't think through the second and third order consequences of
that and the consequences. We are the only country I'm
aware of on the world that's actually transitioning from gas
to coal, and coal is twice as bad as gas.
So what's happened because unfortunately that decision when you're a
global investor sitting in Canada or wherever you are in
(04:48):
the world with investments here in New Zealand around gas,
and you put a chilling effect into the investment community internationally.
That's why we've put two hundred million dollars aside so
we can co invest to encourage those investors to come
back into these and to keep looking for domestic pools
of gas, which we desperately need.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
We had showed Jones on the program last week on
the spry subject. You said you is off to Singapore
to talk to people. So okay, So there is some
genuine interest in looking if we're if we can, you.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Know, and we're going to reverse the oil and gas ban.
But the problem that has happened is again it's very
easy to do the bumper sticker and the slogans, but
you actually have to think through the second and third
what comes next. And what came next was investors go cheap.
Is I don't want to invest in New Zealand. They're
going to lay down millions of dollars billions of hundreds
of millions dollars at capital to do exploration and then
all of a sudden, you know, the rules change and
(05:34):
their assets are stranded. So that's why we're having to
make sure that we reassure them that actually, if they
come here and they reinvest again under you know, either
through legislation or through the government come investment model, we've
got support that we can signal that this is actually important,
we want you to do this stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
See they started last week a battery project at Huntley,
and when that battery is completed and then they're going
to double that battery and that takes us out to
twenty thirty five. Those two batteries as a form of
storage will do the equivalent for two hours of one
hundred and twenty thousand houses. Right, So as good as
that may be on a renewable story, it's not much power.
(06:10):
And when you talk about data centers and stuff. There
was a deal in North Carolina last week for ten
billion year dollars. That's massive and so we don't have
the power for any of it. So you can talk
data centers too, you blue in the face, No, but
we still can't get tea white running it for.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, but we do have abundant natural resources and there
shouldn't be a reason why. But that's years away though, Yeah,
I get it. But equally there is dumb stuff that's
been going on. You know, like if you go down
to Marca, which is just out of Wellington, there's one
hundred and thirty thousand houses that are actually provided by wind.
And the bottom line there is that that took eight
(06:45):
years to consent in two years to build. That should
be a one year consenting, two year build. Yet the
benefit in three years. And we've got a hell of
a lot of places. We could do a lot more
of that stuff. The solar stuff's coming on board really fast.
A lot are funded by British investors, for example, good
and you can install en homously.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Believe heart of hearts that we will get to a
renewable story in some way, shape or form that will
serve it in other words, the green vision, I just
increasingly don't see you. Well, we've got to be so
renewable and it's so unreliable.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I just that's the point I'm trying to make, is
that we're already in the top ten countries of one
hundred and ninety five in the world on renewables. We're
at eighty five eighty seven percent. Any other world leader
I talk to is nowhere near that, right, they're at
twenty percent, you know, fifty percent if you're lucky. So
let's be clear, we've got to double that. And we
can because we've got lots of space and that's all good,
but we're going to need gas. We need we need
(07:33):
some certainty of supply. We're also looking at geothermal, whether
we can go deeper to get more productivity out of
that asset, and that that's technology keyw engineers invented sixty
years ago, and there's more that we could do. There'd
be very interesting, I think down the road. I wouldn't
be surprised if we start having conversations around fusion technology
as well.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
These eighteen and nineteen year olds haven't asked us for
a couple of weeks, but in the budget, you said,
eighteen or nineteen year olds who aren't working are going
to be somehow supported by their parents. And when is
it being announced as and what do you need to
earn as a parent? You're triggered versus not triggered.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I can't give you again a time frame on when
that month month that is coming.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Haven't you made your decision though?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Well we have. I mean that the bottom line is
we always got to set the thresholds. But the point
very clearly is that I'm trying to reprogram our young
people under twenty five to say I just can't go
to school.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Can't I get the theory, But there'll be parents out
there going, well, I own one hundred and ten thousand
versus ninety five thousand. I kind of like to know
where we're at all that, and so why what's what's?
Is this a game or something?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
We just want to make sure that we really get
that setting right, and we've got It's quite complex because
there will also be scenarios where you've also got individuals
that have fallen. You know that their family relationships such
that that doesn't work. So we've got to get that
straight as well. But you know the detail is coming.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
But I just I can't ok the Michael Forbes thing,
which I hesitate to even raise, because I mean, you know,
who the hell saw that coming. Are there things that
are unfolding in your office and in Parliament generally that
you're learning from. Is there something that's come out of
this that you're missed as the red flag we should
have seen? Is there anything at all? Or not?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
No, The problem is that we actually have followed all
of the processes, like you know, really well, and we've
actually been a real stickler for that since you know,
it's been important to me. It's the stuff that I
believe is important. But the problem is in this case,
you know that the individual was vetted, they then worked
for a minister. You know we we're from minister. They
were vetted, they then had this this incident happened after that,
and the question is, well, is there any other vetting
(09:24):
that we should have done if they changed jobs coming
out of the minister's office into my office? Is there
any other cross agency vetting that could have been done?
So really, it's it's an incredible case where you know,
we've done everything that's built up in Parliament and everything
you've learned about hiring staff and the beehive who actually
worked for the d i A. But you know, as
their employer, we've got to go back through all those
processes and say, is there anything else we need to tell?
(09:47):
There isn't, No, there isn't. But it's just like, how
could this happen? And how did we? I think there's
some good questions around. Are the agencies talking to enough
to each other? How would police and d A inter relate?
Is anything we should do is in terms of resetting
and doing some more fitting. There's a bunch of stuff
like that. But again, you're clearly unacceptable behavior, and you know,
(10:09):
we moved as fast as we could. I think I
think we handled it very well. But just still for
the women that were impacted by that, pretty big deal.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
All right, man, nice to see you. Good to see
you too, Chrystal likes and Prime Minister. For more from
the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news Talks it'd
be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
The Prime Minister joins us for this Monday morning. Good
to see you.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Good to see you too, Mike.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Right, So I've got a nineteen ninety three rd eighty
five speed Edge or no, No, it's well it might
because I'm sick of getting the warrant, one of the
things your government promised. So I take it into the
garage on Friday and it needs to warrant. And one
of the things your government promised was you were going
to do twelve month warrants. Yeah, because well when are
you doing it? Because I went and on Friday one
(00:25):
of those conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Lately, you announced this and when are you exactly I
want to tell you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I know we.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Announced it because it's something I'm passionate about. I've got
a nineteen sixty six Riley Elf which has done sixty
six thousand miles. I've probably done one thousand miles and
ten years in it or something.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So is it manual?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yes, manual? Yeah, so at a four speed? It's a
four speed. It's one thousand cc Mini with a boot
on the back of it. It was my first car
I had in christ Church was a sixty two Riley
Off which I crashed going to see Amanda one night,
or someone reversed into me and got written off and
I got sentimently attached to it, so bought another one.
But classic car owners actually look after their cars really well.
They do really few sort of miles and actually we've
(01:02):
got to make it much easier for them. Yes, exactly,
So it's coming. I just can't tell you. It's like,
what was the last thing you were harassing me about?
Was that freeway north? About when's it coming one and ten?
Case it'll come from.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
My eighteen year old was driving home from the country
over the weekend and she called us, spacetimed us and
she said, hey, do you realize it's now one hundred
and ten k's on the road And we said, yes,
how long have you been on it? And she goes,
it's just started to one hundred and ten. I said,
let's stay on the phone call and watch it go
seconds later, watch it go back to one hundred And
(01:33):
she said, why did they do that? And I said,
very good question.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
The my Costing Memorial Motorway North.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So why when did you got to use three meters
of it? Exactly? So why can't you tell me when
you're doing the twelve month more.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I tell you what I'll get out of this interview,
or you just start it is at some point we've
announced it. No, that's all done. It's just I can't
remember when it's coming out, but it is coming absolutely absolutely.
There is like a gazilli and I go to all
these Britain Euroclassic car shows from time to time on
I get a free moment, and honestly, these guys look
after these cars brilliantly. They lead all this hassle that
they community.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Precisely the Blue Bridge thing. How seriously did you guys
consider using them instead of a ferry.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Oh, we looked at a range of different options, but
ultimately you need to have a solution that we can
rely on. You've got to think of the Cook Straight
as a continuation of State Highway one, and you need
certainty of supply on the straight. And as a result,
that's why we went the way we did.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Okay, the EU deal around, I'm reading about deforestation these
new rules for the EU. So everything we send to
the EU under this c FTA has a deforestation tag
to it, and we've got to show that we didn't
DeForest the country by growing our cows and our sheep
and our trees. How problem One why do we sign
up to that? And two? How problematic is that going
(02:51):
to be?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Do you think, Well, I don't think it's problematic. I
mean we've got a third of this country and the
docker state, right. I mean, there's very few countries that
would have that much wildlife protection and and biodiversity that
we've got in this country. I was a bit frustrated
last week because essentially the reality is there is no
doubt about it. I've looked at the numbers. We are
the most carbon efficient, for example, farmers in the world right,
(03:12):
And everyone's been saying I got to shut down farming
because it's going you know, the reality is known, and
we can actually grow farming. We can increase production. We
have this incredible science, technology innovation. This is not just ideas.
These are real projects that are going to make a
big difference on that make our farmers more productive, make
us a lot more innovation. So I reckon anything any more.
Farming in New Zealand is good for the world because
it actually lowers greenhouse gaes sumissions is the way to
(03:34):
think about it, and we've got to do a bit
of reprogramming around it.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
So you don't think it's going to be a problem.
It's my main no.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
No, it will make sure we're complied. But I think
New Zealand has done a great job farming and itself
is coming down. We're actually going to put limits on
the forestation. We've got a lot of farm to forest conversions.
As you know, that's changed the complexion of our rural communities.
It's an externality that's not helping and as a result,
we're going to make some changes around what you can
(03:59):
can't on the land.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Last week's announcement on the lack of gas, how alarmed
do you become each time they say this.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, I think this is one of the great tragedies
of New Zealand. We honestly have abundant natural resources and
we should not have an energy problem. And the reality
is this, at eighty seven percent, we're a top ten
country on renewabooks. We want to double that because we're
going to need it with data centers and other things.
But you've got to face up to the reality is
we are going to need gas for several decades to go,
you know, because you need that certainty of supply. The
(04:27):
oil and gas ban from twenty eighteen was one of
the dumbest, most insanest moves I've seen happen, where they
didn't think through the second and third order consequences of
that and the consequences. We are the only country I'm
aware of on the world that's actually transitioning from gas
to coal, and coal is twice as bad as gas.
So what's happened because unfortunately that decision when you're a
global investor sitting in Canada or wherever you are in
(04:48):
the world with investments here in New Zealand around gas,
and you put a chilling effect into the investment community internationally.
That's why we've put two hundred million dollars aside so
we can co invest to encourage those investors to come
back into these and to keep looking for domestic pools
of gas, which we desperately need.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
We had showed Jones on the program last week on
the spry subject. You said you is off to Singapore
to talk to people. So okay, So there is some
genuine interest in looking if we're if we can, you.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Know, and we're going to reverse the oil and gas ban.
But the problem that has happened is again it's very
easy to do the bumper sticker and the slogans, but
you actually have to think through the second and third
what comes next. And what came next was investors go cheap.
Is I don't want to invest in New Zealand. They're
going to lay down millions of dollars billions of hundreds
of millions dollars at capital to do exploration and then
all of a sudden, you know, the rules change and
(05:34):
their assets are stranded. So that's why we're having to
make sure that we reassure them that actually, if they
come here and they reinvest again under you know, either
through legislation or through the government come investment model, we've
got support that we can signal that this is actually important,
we want you to do this stuff.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
See they started last week a battery project at Huntley,
and when that battery is completed and then they're going
to double that battery and that takes us out to
twenty thirty five. Those two batteries as a form of
storage will do the equivalent for two hours of one
hundred and twenty thousand houses. Right, So as good as
that may be on a renewable story, it's not much power.
(06:10):
And when you talk about data centers and stuff. There
was a deal in North Carolina last week for ten
billion year dollars. That's massive and so we don't have
the power for any of it. So you can talk
data centers too, you blue in the face, No, but
we still can't get tea white running it for.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, but we do have abundant natural resources and there
shouldn't be a reason why. But that's years away though, Yeah,
I get it. But equally there is dumb stuff that's
been going on. You know, like if you go down
to Marca, which is just out of Wellington, there's one
hundred and thirty thousand houses that are actually provided by wind.
And the bottom line there is that that took eight
(06:45):
years to consent in two years to build. That should
be a one year consenting, two year build. Yet the
benefit in three years. And we've got a hell of
a lot of places. We could do a lot more
of that stuff. The solar stuff's coming on board really fast.
A lot are funded by British investors, for example, good
and you can install en homously.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Believe heart of hearts that we will get to a
renewable story in some way, shape or form that will
serve it in other words, the green vision, I just
increasingly don't see you. Well, we've got to be so
renewable and it's so unreliable.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I just that's the point I'm trying to make, is
that we're already in the top ten countries of one
hundred and ninety five in the world on renewables. We're
at eighty five eighty seven percent. Any other world leader
I talk to is nowhere near that, right, they're at
twenty percent, you know, fifty percent if you're lucky. So
let's be clear, we've got to double that. And we
can because we've got lots of space and that's all good,
but we're going to need gas. We need we need
(07:33):
some certainty of supply. We're also looking at geothermal, whether
we can go deeper to get more productivity out of
that asset, and that that's technology keyw engineers invented sixty
years ago, and there's more that we could do. There'd
be very interesting, I think down the road. I wouldn't
be surprised if we start having conversations around fusion technology
as well.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
These eighteen and nineteen year olds haven't asked us for
a couple of weeks, but in the budget, you said,
eighteen or nineteen year olds who aren't working are going
to be somehow supported by their parents. And when is
it being announced as and what do you need to
earn as a parent? You're triggered versus not triggered.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I can't give you again a time frame on when
that month month that is coming.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Haven't you made your decision though?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Well we have. I mean that the bottom line is
we always got to set the thresholds. But the point
very clearly is that I'm trying to reprogram our young
people under twenty five to say I just can't go
to school.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Can't I get the theory, But there'll be parents out
there going, well, I own one hundred and ten thousand
versus ninety five thousand. I kind of like to know
where we're at all that, and so why what's what's?
Is this a game or something?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
We just want to make sure that we really get
that setting right, and we've got It's quite complex because
there will also be scenarios where you've also got individuals
that have fallen. You know that their family relationships such
that that doesn't work. So we've got to get that
straight as well. But you know the detail is coming.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
But I just I can't ok the Michael Forbes thing,
which I hesitate to even raise, because I mean, you know,
who the hell saw that coming. Are there things that
are unfolding in your office and in Parliament generally that
you're learning from. Is there something that's come out of
this that you're missed as the red flag we should
have seen? Is there anything at all? Or not?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
No, The problem is that we actually have followed all
of the processes, like you know, really well, and we've
actually been a real stickler for that since you know,
it's been important to me. It's the stuff that I
believe is important. But the problem is in this case,
you know that the individual was vetted, they then worked
for a minister. You know we we're from minister. They
were vetted, they then had this this incident happened after that,
and the question is, well, is there any other vetting
(09:24):
that we should have done if they changed jobs coming
out of the minister's office into my office? Is there
any other cross agency vetting that could have been done?
So really, it's it's an incredible case where you know,
we've done everything that's built up in Parliament and everything
you've learned about hiring staff and the beehive who actually
worked for the d i A. But you know, as
their employer, we've got to go back through all those
processes and say, is there anything else we need to tell?
(09:47):
There isn't, No, there isn't. But it's just like, how
could this happen? And how did we? I think there's
some good questions around. Are the agencies talking to enough
to each other? How would police and d A inter relate?
Is anything we should do is in terms of resetting
and doing some more fitting. There's a bunch of stuff
like that. But again, you're clearly unacceptable behavior, and you know,
(10:09):
we moved as fast as we could. I think I
think we handled it very well. But just still for
the women that were impacted by that, pretty big deal.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
All right, man, nice to see you. Good to see
you too, Chrystal likes and Prime Minister. For more from
the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news Talks it'd
be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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