October 19, 2025 • 10 mins
Chris Luxon says the Government would pay teachers and doctors more, if it could.
Tens of thousands of education and health workers will walk of the job, in a massive super-strike on Thursday.
They're wanting pay rises to keep up with inflation.
But the Prime Minister told Mike Hosking the Government is dealing with a limited budget.
He says if New Zealand was a wealthier economy, like Ireland, it could afford to pay its people more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Monday morning, the Prime Minister is in our studio, a
very good morning. The letter, the letter from Judith Collins,
I thought was a good letter, and I was just
saying before the news, I hope people get to see
it in the detail because a couple of things won.
The Palestine thing was a revelation to me. I mean,
I mean, can you explain it in any way, shape
or form why Union would have number one on the
(00:21):
list of Palestine?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
No justification for it, really, and it just sort of
speaks to the members sort of not being represented by
their union very well. And I think if you're a
parent or a kid or a patient sort are seeing
what the action is, I think people understand it's politically motivated,
and we just want them to get around the negotiating table.
We had the Primary Principles Union come through and close
there dearly out on Friday, and you know, they got
(00:42):
in there quickly fast, They did a good deal. You
know they're going to get two point five percent immediately,
two point one in a year's time, four point seven
percent within a year really, So we just want them
to be constructive and get around the table. But I
think you know the other things, like you said they're going,
we actually have a bunch of teacher only days. We'd
just come back from school holidays, We've got Labor Day
on Monday, and there's a strike going on this week.
(01:05):
We've not unreasonably asked schools teachers to think about doing
teacher only days during school holidays and professional development during
school holidays so that we can get our kids taught
during the during term time. So yeah, look, I just think,
you know, there's a bunch of political motivations going on
and they just need to get back to the table.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
That was the other revelation in the article for me,
in the letter for me, and they due to claims.
They rejected that. So your business of doing your teacher
ony days and holiday they rejected that. Do you have
no control over them? Are you not ultimately their employer?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
No, because I think they're actually employed by well actually
in this case, the Public Service Commissioner is leading the
negotiation centrally. But you know, again, that's something that you
want to be discussing on those It's not just always
about the rate. It's also about terms and conditions about
how we can deliver services in an efficient, more efficient,
better way. So I just say I think that's unreasonable
(01:56):
request when when you sort of think about the twelve
weeks of school holidays that exist acro this country each year. No,
and I think when parents get mucked around and then
you've got public holidays on top, you know there's quite
a lot of you know, we just want to make
sure our kids can get back. They've missed a lot
of schooling. We're two weeks out from NCAA. Parents get
mucked around with their schedules, and I just think we're
(02:16):
just encouraging everyone to get back to the table Undergotiat we.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Talked to Swimming and Brown last week. He seemed to indicate, Oh,
I want to see how serious you are. Are you
looking at changing the law on compulsory arbitration?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Not currently, but ultimately, you know, you want people to
be protect their right to strike. But also you know,
if we've got life preserving challenges and a healthcare system,
that's something we'd have to consider as well. But for now,
our answers get back to the table. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
But this is where I get I have an element
of simpathy here because because of your fiscal constraints, what
they're arguing over is one percent, two percent and they're
going well, inflation's two point seven, we're actually going backwards,
which is a mathematical fact. Would you pay them more
if you had the money, Yeah, we would if we
were a wealthier economy like we see in other countries.
(03:01):
Think about Ireland twice as wealthy per person as New
Zealand got twice as many teachers. They can pay their
pay their people more. But you know, the irony in here.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Is that it was labor that actually tripled the debt,
made us make nine billion dollars worth of interest payments.
And we've got to make the country wealthier. When we
make the wealth, when we make it wealthier, we can
afford better public.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So this is the problem. Every time I've had a
unionist on this program, I asked the inevitable question, which
is we have no money, we have less than no money.
What where do you want that money to come from?
And their answer is consistent that is tax people more.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, we'll borrow more, tax more spamily. Right, That's that's
the thing, and that's what's caused the mess. That's what's
caused inflation and interest rates go through the roof and
cause suffering for regular working folk in New Zellen.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So this is this is the political slash philosophical debate
I guess we're having at the moment. These numbers in
this letter. Do you see them, whether it be primary
or secondary or indeed doctors or nurses, Are these wages
that are in this letter to your mind reasonable wages
forget you one or two percent? But does does sixty
six percent to primary teachers earning a six figure salary?
(04:01):
Does that strike you as a fair wage or not?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah? Look, I mean we have to start from where
we start with current set of wages. We would love
to pay everyone more, but that for that to happen,
we've got to be a much wealthier economy. And what
you have to do is just make sure that people
are protected through the cost of living and through inflation.
And that's why a lot of our conversation and the
terms and that'll be between the employer and the unions
is around inflation adjusted sort of settlements. But you know, again,
(04:26):
we're not going to backdate payments. And that's as a result,
you know, I think members are going to be every
every week of a delay that's been going on is
actually not serving those members.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Well, No, wrigt In Peters and Fonterra. Is he on
a thing here is just going to turn into something
We're going to have to bang some heads.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Well, look, I think the last thing farmers want is
politicians selling them what to do, and he's doing it. Yeah,
he can do it. And I've got a different view
from him as to what I think is the right.
You know what what I think they could do?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Is he in a position to threaten regulation?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
No, Look, the farmers, this is their business, this is
their livelihoods. It's their decision ultimately, and you know, and
I trust our farmers are to do what they want
to do. That's up to them. But you know, politicians
can have their reckons. When since his I've got mine,
I actually think you know, the consumer brands business is
not nearly as profitable as the as the food ingredients
food service and ingredients business. It's a higher margin business
(05:16):
what they're doing, and so it's a good thing to
sell it, honest.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Well, there's an Alliance vote today on the door meets thing.
Would you sell that as well?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Look, I mean the commercial decisions and you've got to
be able to access capital if you want to expand
or protect that business. They look like they're with a
really good partner. But again, why would government get in
the middle of all of that. That's up to individual
businesses to work out how they have capital and it's
up for those shareholders and owners to make those decisions.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I couldn't work out over the weekend it said that
there's a flood. There would not mine a flood of
visa applications from two hundred parents. Those are the parents
easer for people in the country and the changes you
make to the visa. So it is two hundred of flood,
I don't I don't think so. I mean that's I'm
just trying to work out whether it's a flood or
whether it's feels.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Like suddenly at the lower end of what our expectations
were and what we planned for. But again, what we're
designed there was to say, look, you know, if you
want you're a migrant to New Zealand or a New Zealander,
you don't have any family support, you want to be
able to access that you can. It comes at quite
a high cost because we need to make sure that
they pay for their own costs around healthcare and the
consumption of infrastructure.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
What's inflation today and does it worry you.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Look, it'll be interesting. I mean it could bounce around.
I don't know the number. I haven't been told, but
it could be you know, as you've heard people say,
it could be bouncing in around three percent. What the
Reserve Bank of New Zealand looks at and what we
sort of look at is what's the medium term inflation.
It's supposed to be two percent next year, which what
gives them confidence to keep liring rates. I think there'll
(06:42):
be a better swings roundabouts. You know, you're seeing massive
growth and red meat prices around the world. You're seeing
you know, dairy On the other hand, you've got rents
the lowest it's been I think since twenty eleven at
the moment, and interest rates coming down.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yeah. But the problem is what you're worried about piccalcl rates. Yeah, exactly,
so good said exactly. So the council is the problem,
the power companies the problem, the insurance companies of the problem.
And so what do you do about that, because that's
the political part of the equation, isn't it the biggest
part of it.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
As council rates it's about twelve twelve point five percent,
and you think about inflation running at two point seven today,
so it's a big contributor to you know, it's about
I think thirty five bases points of that as actual
council rates. That's why we want to explore council caps
rate caps because actually to make sure counsels are using
their balance sheets appropriate.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
When you say explore, when are you actually doing something about.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It this quarter before Christmas? We'll have more talk about it, will.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Well you talk about you'll talk about it this quarter,
will you?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
No? No, no, we're working up the policy design work
right now. That's what Simon Watts has been working on
as Local Government Minister, and then he'll bring that to
Cabinet and we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
From random stuff that you may or may not know about.
Are you aware of the home baking home cake baking
review that your government has launched last week? You're not?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Clearly? Oh, that's on the part of Seymour's hospitality.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well it appears not. It appears there's a hospitality review,
So I get the hospitality review. But he was also
there with Andrew Hogad last week cutting a cake and
he's going to loosen up the rules around home cake baking.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah. Well, there's some pretty big issues that I think
we want to get to, which I get this country
get rid of red tape and green tape. That's probably
not the red tape that I was imagining with.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
No, apparently there's a review underway. Now that's great, here's
the here's the next thing. Do you know what tar aerospaces? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Down down in christ Et.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Okay? Good?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Did you realize that they've moved away from rocket launchers?
This is the government funded aerospace unit. Right, yeah, you've
you've moved away from rocket launches into what.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Well, we've still got it there for like people like
dorn Aerospace that have got you know, spacecraft and also
satellite propulsion systems. That's where they're based.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You're into flying cars. Apparently fantastic.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Isn't that great?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I don't know that that's fantastic. What's the government?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
But you don't get flying exton martians?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
No? Well you might one day, but but at what
point is the government involvement in this that.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
We're very it sunds like it is it sounds cool?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, but cool. I'm just worried about the economy. I'm
just and if we can produce a flying car fans.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Can I just tell you what's going on there? That
You've got a great city and christ Church, it's got
brand new infrastructure in it. You've got an awesome university
with a great engineering school. You've had fantastic startups come
out the back of it. I think Dawn Aerospace, Kea Aerospace,
a bunch of them that are really doing advanced aviation
in space, and like yells mere, there you've got that
launch pad, which is actually a huge opportunity for us.
(09:27):
So the question is what more can we be doing it?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
If they pivoted to flying cars, you'd go for enough advanced.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Aviation space, all that stuff we're all in on because actually,
do you know we're the third biggest launcher of rockets
in the world.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Actually we overtook Russia last year, so we go US, China,
New Zealand and then Russia.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
So why have you held that to the end of
the interview? I mean, that was your fun fact for
the morning.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
If we didn't ask about the flying cars, and if
you've come out of the box asking about flying cars up, I.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Would personally i'd front load the fun facts if I
if I was the prime front loader the fun facts
at the start.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Anyway, that requires an interview to ask you the fun
fake questions up.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
That's true. Actually we should have a separate section. Anyway,
We've had enough. Any more fun fakes? You got anything
else thy?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Any more reflection you want to give me for the week?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
None? WHATSK. For more from the mic Asking Breakfast, listen
live to News Talks it B from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Monday morning, the Prime Minister is in our studio, a
very good morning. The letter, the letter from Judith Collins,
I thought was a good letter, and I was just
saying before the news, I hope people get to see
it in the detail because a couple of things won.
The Palestine thing was a revelation to me. I mean,
I mean, can you explain it in any way, shape
or form why Union would have number one on the
(00:21):
list of Palestine?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
No justification for it, really, and it just sort of
speaks to the members sort of not being represented by
their union very well. And I think if you're a
parent or a kid or a patient sort are seeing
what the action is, I think people understand it's politically motivated,
and we just want them to get around the negotiating table.
We had the Primary Principles Union come through and close
there dearly out on Friday, and you know, they got
(00:42):
in there quickly fast, They did a good deal. You
know they're going to get two point five percent immediately,
two point one in a year's time, four point seven
percent within a year really, So we just want them
to be constructive and get around the table. But I
think you know the other things, like you said they're going,
we actually have a bunch of teacher only days. We'd
just come back from school holidays, We've got Labor Day
on Monday, and there's a strike going on this week.
(01:05):
We've not unreasonably asked schools teachers to think about doing
teacher only days during school holidays and professional development during
school holidays so that we can get our kids taught
during the during term time. So yeah, look, I just think,
you know, there's a bunch of political motivations going on
and they just need to get back to the table.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
That was the other revelation in the article for me,
in the letter for me, and they due to claims.
They rejected that. So your business of doing your teacher
ony days and holiday they rejected that. Do you have
no control over them? Are you not ultimately their employer?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
No, because I think they're actually employed by well actually
in this case, the Public Service Commissioner is leading the
negotiation centrally. But you know, again, that's something that you
want to be discussing on those It's not just always
about the rate. It's also about terms and conditions about
how we can deliver services in an efficient, more efficient,
better way. So I just say I think that's unreasonable
(01:56):
request when when you sort of think about the twelve
weeks of school holidays that exist acro this country each year. No,
and I think when parents get mucked around and then
you've got public holidays on top, you know there's quite
a lot of you know, we just want to make
sure our kids can get back. They've missed a lot
of schooling. We're two weeks out from NCAA. Parents get
mucked around with their schedules, and I just think we're
(02:16):
just encouraging everyone to get back to the table Undergotiat we.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Talked to Swimming and Brown last week. He seemed to indicate, Oh,
I want to see how serious you are. Are you
looking at changing the law on compulsory arbitration?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Not currently, but ultimately, you know, you want people to
be protect their right to strike. But also you know,
if we've got life preserving challenges and a healthcare system,
that's something we'd have to consider as well. But for now,
our answers get back to the table. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
But this is where I get I have an element
of simpathy here because because of your fiscal constraints, what
they're arguing over is one percent, two percent and they're
going well, inflation's two point seven, we're actually going backwards,
which is a mathematical fact. Would you pay them more
if you had the money, Yeah, we would if we
were a wealthier economy like we see in other countries.
(03:01):
Think about Ireland twice as wealthy per person as New
Zealand got twice as many teachers. They can pay their
pay their people more. But you know, the irony in here.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Is that it was labor that actually tripled the debt,
made us make nine billion dollars worth of interest payments.
And we've got to make the country wealthier. When we
make the wealth, when we make it wealthier, we can
afford better public.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So this is the problem. Every time I've had a
unionist on this program, I asked the inevitable question, which
is we have no money, we have less than no money.
What where do you want that money to come from?
And their answer is consistent that is tax people more.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, we'll borrow more, tax more spamily. Right, That's that's
the thing, and that's what's caused the mess. That's what's
caused inflation and interest rates go through the roof and
cause suffering for regular working folk in New Zellen.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So this is this is the political slash philosophical debate
I guess we're having at the moment. These numbers in
this letter. Do you see them, whether it be primary
or secondary or indeed doctors or nurses, Are these wages
that are in this letter to your mind reasonable wages
forget you one or two percent? But does does sixty
six percent to primary teachers earning a six figure salary?
(04:01):
Does that strike you as a fair wage or not?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah? Look, I mean we have to start from where
we start with current set of wages. We would love
to pay everyone more, but that for that to happen,
we've got to be a much wealthier economy. And what
you have to do is just make sure that people
are protected through the cost of living and through inflation.
And that's why a lot of our conversation and the
terms and that'll be between the employer and the unions
is around inflation adjusted sort of settlements. But you know, again,
(04:26):
we're not going to backdate payments. And that's as a result,
you know, I think members are going to be every
every week of a delay that's been going on is
actually not serving those members.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Well, No, wrigt In Peters and Fonterra. Is he on
a thing here is just going to turn into something
We're going to have to bang some heads.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Well, look, I think the last thing farmers want is
politicians selling them what to do, and he's doing it. Yeah,
he can do it. And I've got a different view
from him as to what I think is the right.
You know what what I think they could do?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Is he in a position to threaten regulation?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
No, Look, the farmers, this is their business, this is
their livelihoods. It's their decision ultimately, and you know, and
I trust our farmers are to do what they want
to do. That's up to them. But you know, politicians
can have their reckons. When since his I've got mine,
I actually think you know, the consumer brands business is
not nearly as profitable as the as the food ingredients
food service and ingredients business. It's a higher margin business
(05:16):
what they're doing, and so it's a good thing to
sell it, honest.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Well, there's an Alliance vote today on the door meets thing.
Would you sell that as well?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Look, I mean the commercial decisions and you've got to
be able to access capital if you want to expand
or protect that business. They look like they're with a
really good partner. But again, why would government get in
the middle of all of that. That's up to individual
businesses to work out how they have capital and it's
up for those shareholders and owners to make those decisions.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I couldn't work out over the weekend it said that
there's a flood. There would not mine a flood of
visa applications from two hundred parents. Those are the parents
easer for people in the country and the changes you
make to the visa. So it is two hundred of flood,
I don't I don't think so. I mean that's I'm
just trying to work out whether it's a flood or
whether it's feels.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Like suddenly at the lower end of what our expectations
were and what we planned for. But again, what we're
designed there was to say, look, you know, if you
want you're a migrant to New Zealand or a New Zealander,
you don't have any family support, you want to be
able to access that you can. It comes at quite
a high cost because we need to make sure that
they pay for their own costs around healthcare and the
consumption of infrastructure.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
What's inflation today and does it worry you.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Look, it'll be interesting. I mean it could bounce around.
I don't know the number. I haven't been told, but
it could be you know, as you've heard people say,
it could be bouncing in around three percent. What the
Reserve Bank of New Zealand looks at and what we
sort of look at is what's the medium term inflation.
It's supposed to be two percent next year, which what
gives them confidence to keep liring rates. I think there'll
(06:42):
be a better swings roundabouts. You know, you're seeing massive
growth and red meat prices around the world. You're seeing
you know, dairy On the other hand, you've got rents
the lowest it's been I think since twenty eleven at
the moment, and interest rates coming down.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yeah. But the problem is what you're worried about piccalcl rates. Yeah, exactly,
so good said exactly. So the council is the problem,
the power companies the problem, the insurance companies of the problem.
And so what do you do about that, because that's
the political part of the equation, isn't it the biggest
part of it.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
As council rates it's about twelve twelve point five percent,
and you think about inflation running at two point seven today,
so it's a big contributor to you know, it's about
I think thirty five bases points of that as actual
council rates. That's why we want to explore council caps
rate caps because actually to make sure counsels are using
their balance sheets appropriate.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
When you say explore, when are you actually doing something about.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It this quarter before Christmas? We'll have more talk about it, will.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Well you talk about you'll talk about it this quarter,
will you?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
No? No, no, we're working up the policy design work
right now. That's what Simon Watts has been working on
as Local Government Minister, and then he'll bring that to
Cabinet and we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
From random stuff that you may or may not know about.
Are you aware of the home baking home cake baking
review that your government has launched last week? You're not?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Clearly? Oh, that's on the part of Seymour's hospitality.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well it appears not. It appears there's a hospitality review,
So I get the hospitality review. But he was also
there with Andrew Hogad last week cutting a cake and
he's going to loosen up the rules around home cake baking.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah. Well, there's some pretty big issues that I think
we want to get to, which I get this country
get rid of red tape and green tape. That's probably
not the red tape that I was imagining with.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
No, apparently there's a review underway. Now that's great, here's
the here's the next thing. Do you know what tar aerospaces? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Down down in christ Et.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Okay? Good?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Did you realize that they've moved away from rocket launchers?
This is the government funded aerospace unit. Right, yeah, you've
you've moved away from rocket launches into what.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Well, we've still got it there for like people like
dorn Aerospace that have got you know, spacecraft and also
satellite propulsion systems. That's where they're based.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You're into flying cars. Apparently fantastic.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Isn't that great?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I don't know that that's fantastic. What's the government?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
But you don't get flying exton martians?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
No? Well you might one day, but but at what
point is the government involvement in this that.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
We're very it sunds like it is it sounds cool?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, but cool. I'm just worried about the economy. I'm
just and if we can produce a flying car fans.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Can I just tell you what's going on there? That
You've got a great city and christ Church, it's got
brand new infrastructure in it. You've got an awesome university
with a great engineering school. You've had fantastic startups come
out the back of it. I think Dawn Aerospace, Kea Aerospace,
a bunch of them that are really doing advanced aviation
in space, and like yells mere, there you've got that
launch pad, which is actually a huge opportunity for us.
(09:27):
So the question is what more can we be doing it?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
If they pivoted to flying cars, you'd go for enough advanced.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Aviation space, all that stuff we're all in on because actually,
do you know we're the third biggest launcher of rockets
in the world.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Actually we overtook Russia last year, so we go US, China,
New Zealand and then Russia.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
So why have you held that to the end of
the interview? I mean, that was your fun fact for
the morning.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
If we didn't ask about the flying cars, and if
you've come out of the box asking about flying cars up, I.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Would personally i'd front load the fun facts if I
if I was the prime front loader the fun facts
at the start.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Anyway, that requires an interview to ask you the fun
fake questions up.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
That's true. Actually we should have a separate section. Anyway,
We've had enough. Any more fun fakes? You got anything
else thy?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Any more reflection you want to give me for the week?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
None? WHATSK. For more from the mic Asking Breakfast, listen
live to News Talks it B from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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