August 17, 2025 • 10 mins
The Prime Minister says Auckland won't be getting a bed tax this parliamentary term, despite a renewed call from the city's mayor.
Last week Wayne Brown again called for a bed night levy, saying it wouldn't cost the Government anything.
He claimed they were cheeky for not putting one in and believed they would eventually cave.
Chris Luxon told Mike Hosking that now is not the time to be putting in another tax.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Monday morning, the Prime Minister's with us, very good morning
to you. What you could about you? Would you appear
hand on heart? Would you appear publicly at the COVID inquiry?
If call, yeah, I would, Yeah, I would.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I mean, I think I think New Zealanders have gone
through a huge amount of suffering. You know, those ministers,
former minister's premises should show up at that inquiry. I
think you know what you saw last week with the
Treasury report saying you know, we were the second largest
stimulitary country on Earth. It created and made the cost
of living worse, and it certainly affected our future fiscal track.
I think New Zealanders have done a huge amount of
(00:32):
pain and suffering because of the actions of the previous government.
But I'll be honest with you, I get what they're
trying to do. You know, if you're hipkins, you're trying
to politically guess like the country and say you had
nothing to do with that record. Well you did, so
I think they should show but frankly, ultimate it's their
call and I've got to now fix it. So that's
what I'm focused on.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Grant Robinson says, it's a show trial, is it?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I disagree. I think it's something called accountability, and I
think showing up and actually giving the justification for way
you took the actions you did that ultimately I think
made the cost of living worse. Actually I think caused
huge suffer for lower middle income New Zealanders in particular.
Actually they need to be called to account on that.
But ultimately their.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Called who is the bigger hypocrite, Dune and Robertson because
they're no longer accountable, or Hopkins and Verril, who are well.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I think you know, Hopkins are Vera making a case
they want to leave the country again, and I think
it'll be a disaster, but I think they should at
least show up and actually front. But again, you know,
it's their decision. And I just say, you know, I
get what they're trying to do politically. If you're Chris Haipkins,
you want to get out from under the rock, which
is your last record when you're in government, where the
economy got worse, you know, Lauren order God worse, health
(01:34):
and education got worse. I get it. He wants to
gas light and just move on from that pass. But
I think you should front.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Do you know what they're paying Dentons or what the
taxpayer is paying Dentons in terms of legal representation, No idea.
Will that come up at some point somewhere. Where does
that money come from? Is that in the leader of
the old comes out of a budget.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I think there's a long standing convention that if governments
are former ministers from previous governments, a sort of I
have to go forward on any you know, incurr any
legal costs for claims like this, it's picked up by
the taxpayer. So that's that's quite normal convention.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Okay, speaking money for the taxpayer. The break fee on
the Interro Islander. Is that negotiable or will it change
in any way if the company concerned happens to end
up with the tender. No.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think this is a final net what we owe them,
irrespective of what comes next. It's a lot cheaper. It's
one hundred and forty five million dollars. It's a lot
cheaper than what people were saying at three hundred million dollars.
I think Winston's saying, a really good job to negotiate
a way out of that. It sounds a bit counterintuitive
to everybody because you basically had this I REX project
that was seven hundred and seventy five million blew out
(02:36):
to three point two on its way to four. We
had to deal with it in the second or third
week of a new government and get it right sized. Yes,
there's some brake fees and some sunk costs that you've
got to swallow and deal with, but the total total
investment we're going to make is going to be a
hell of a lot less than three point two.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So you're going to end up with So if you're
totally at four billion and so with the brake fees,
in fact, the total fees with the infrastructre stuff came
to something like half a billion already, So between them
half a billion dollars plus whatever you buy a significantly
to correct.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Correct, and we will get a great solution for the
cook straight, very pragmatic, very practical, very for purpose. We'll
get the infrastructure at both ends sorted and actually Winstance
doing a great job. I think it's just cleaning that
up and getting that sorted.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So Nicola Willis is in the UK. Was in the UK.
She's talking to Bloomberger. You're telling Bloomberg more about Winston
and his movement on foreign buyers, buying houses than we've
been told here in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I know you have afflicted me every week on that one,
and we are weeks away from that one, and so
I'll have more to say about that.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
When you say we're weeks away, What do you mean
by that it goes She said it's going to cabinet
in the next couple of weeks. Does she mean it's
going to cabinet in the next couple of weeks because
we've got a deal, we'll put it in cabinet, they'll
take it off and then we'll make the announcement.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Correct, So the deal as of this morning is essentially done.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, there were there were process working its way through
cabinet because there's actually regulation, legislation involved and overturning it.
So you've actually got an a think through the pole,
get the thinking straight, and then you've actually got to
take it to cabinet and then obviously then draft a
piece of legislation.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Then you know when will it be done as in legislation,
cabinet go as.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Fast as we possibly can. I think it'll be one
of those things you'd want to do under under urgency
and go through it.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yes, absolutely, Okay, So as you sit here talking to
me this morning, there was actually an agreement between you
and Peter's. Yeah, we've got we've got a.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Proposal which we take to cabinet obviously a final decisions
made sure, and that's taking it.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
To cabinet today.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Well, well we're taking we're taking in the next few weeks.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I would have thought it was way more more urgent
than that. Well, there's a lot that goes through cabinet.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
There's a lot of things for us to discuss, but
we've got we've got the we've got a paper which
we'll then go forward from here where you then make
the final decision in cabinet.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
The electricity Authority last week and out some sort of
investigation into the industry and pricing and stuff like that.
It is claimed in part anyway, a bunch of users
wrote to you and said, we're sick and tired of this,
have a look at it. Is that what drove it?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Well, I think there's everyone's frustrated with electricity, right, I mean,
what we're seeing is it's a big contributor to the
cost of living and inflation. Particularly. It's actually the transmission
part of it that's led to the increase in electricity.
Everyone's got a letter from their gen Taylor that sort
of says prices are going up. That's really the piece
that's been the expensive part, the transmission piece. Look, what
(05:18):
we've had to do here is there's quite a few
aur venues to what's happening in our energy market at
the moment. I mean, the first thing was this oil
and gas band reversal, which we did two weeks ago,
has been good. We've got two hundred million dollars set
aside so we can get gas, which actually is necessary
for us. We've also put a strategic coal reserve together
so that actually you know, if it's going to be
driverer or scare, we've actually don't have our prices going
(05:40):
through the roof. All of that's just starting to calm
it down a lot than what it has been, and
that actually projects forward pricing quite well. Other people know that.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
The reason they asked the question is where were they
last year? If the people write to you and they
suddenly go, hell, we better be seen to be doing something.
Where were they last year when it was really bad?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well, last year was really bad?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I mean, well, what do they do on the wide
I mean.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
The wholesale electricity prices last year getting up to I
think even up to fifteen hundred dollars fifteen times.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
It doesn't stringy one at the electricity authority go jeez,
I wonder if we might want to look at this.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
We'd have to ask them. All I can do is
I know that there's several components to the energy market
that I have to get fax. One is I have
to have certainty of supply so we can't have an
issue where the lights get turned off like we were
experiencing last year and people start losing their jobs. That's
about having a coal reserve. People don't like that. People
can be a lot of grief about that. But I'm sorry,
but actually low prices are much more important than sort
(06:32):
of managing emissions at this point in time.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
That is true. Having seid all of that water done well.
This is my next concern ongoing. So there are a
number of councils in the country who have been written
to by the Internal Affairs Department that the smaller councils
they've decided to go it alone. The Internal Affairs have
written and gone that doesn't look good enough to us. Yep,
what if they go it alone and it all goes
tits up.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well again, you know, their plans have to get signed
off by the minister. That was part of the deal
with the legislation, so they've got to the first of
September to get their proposals together. There are some really
good examples where councils are collaborating really well and actually
putting together proper management of those assets. I think it's interesting,
Like the best example was actually all Clantier. I remember
when Wayne Brown was proposing a twenty four percent rate rise,
(07:15):
and then we put water Care into a different asset structure.
It's not sexy stuff, but a different entity and as
a result, it could borrow better for long run assets.
And the actually rates went up six percent or six
or seven percent or so last year, and that freed
up eight hundred million dollars from the council's budget to
spend on other infrastructure rather than worry about three waters.
So that structure is the right way to go.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
My concern is though, that so internal revenue, internal affair
is right to them. So we don't like the look
of it. The Minister will go because of that. You're
not allowed to.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Be He has powers to make interventions to make sure
that they are going to run those assets and manage
them properly and that financially they'll be able to manage that.
And if he's not assured on both those points.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So what will they do? What will the council who
wants to go it alone do when the minister goes,
you can't do that as the minister then go you
need to buddy up with councils, right, so correct so
they tell you what to do. So really it's Hobson's choice,
isn't it. There's no choice, you know, you do.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
We want these assets managed properly. That's the problem. They
haven't been run properly. I mean, you've got perverse situations
where you got council's increasing rates for what's called operating
expenditure to pay out on capital expenditure, which is building
out pipes and stuff like that. So we're just saying, look,
we've got to professionally manage these assets. I think the
vast majority of councils are getting there. There's been some
really good examples, and it's difficult because district councils are
(08:33):
having to actually collaborate on this stuff, having to collaborate
on regional and city deals. That's all a good thing
because there's a lot of duplication. As you can see
today we're going to announce the building code authorities, which
are there's a gazillion of them. Actually they can merge
those together as well, so the more experience they yet
actually working together as subregions of New Zealand and doing
it from the grassroots up on three waters, on regional plans,
(08:55):
on building bas is actually good stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
You mentioned Wayane Brown has tax, it goes, doesn't even
cost you anything. Do you give them a bed tax
or do you worry about the broader picture in this
country that the more expensive you make it to come
to New Zealand. Did a country already.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Worried about just adding a new tax? Now is not
the time for a tax. We have to get the
show growing and growth is really where we've got to
focus on. Yes, we've got a bed tax is actually
quite an interesting idea. It's not something I'm going to
look at this term. It's not something we're considering at all.
But for where we are in this cycle where people
are doing it tough, another tax ain't the way forward.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
The Supreme Court and the river bed decision last week.
Does that in any way, shape or form change what
you're doing around foreshore?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
And see, I saw that legislation come that, that ruling
come through I think on Thursday or Friday Friday, and
will take a bit of time to digest that and
understand that. As you know, on the Macha side, we've decided,
after digesting the last Supreme Court ruling on the seat
on the coastal areas, for us to go back into
Parliament and actually pass the law to make it back
to what its original intent was, which was the balance
(09:56):
customer right and also the rights of all Newlanders.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Has Amanda knowing you in your entire married life to
be as bad at dancing as.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
You were, mates, I've got rhythm. I went to the
pepper Nui Asa when it was school ball season in
Langdon's Road, christ Church, and that lady at the instructing
us told me that I had rhythm. And I believe
that ever.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Since you sat with a straight face. Yeah she did.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I think she genuinely thought I haven't seen so much
rhythm in one individual for so long.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Nice to see you, Prime Minister Christopher Lux for more
from the mic, asking Breakfast. Listen live to news talks
it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
Monday morning, the Prime Minister's with us, very good morning
to you. What you could about you? Would you appear
hand on heart? Would you appear publicly at the COVID inquiry?
If call, yeah, I would, Yeah, I would.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I mean, I think I think New Zealanders have gone
through a huge amount of suffering. You know, those ministers,
former minister's premises should show up at that inquiry. I
think you know what you saw last week with the
Treasury report saying you know, we were the second largest
stimulitary country on Earth. It created and made the cost
of living worse, and it certainly affected our future fiscal track.
I think New Zealanders have done a huge amount of
(00:32):
pain and suffering because of the actions of the previous government.
But I'll be honest with you, I get what they're
trying to do. You know, if you're hipkins, you're trying
to politically guess like the country and say you had
nothing to do with that record. Well you did, so
I think they should show but frankly, ultimate it's their
call and I've got to now fix it. So that's
what I'm focused on.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Grant Robinson says, it's a show trial, is it?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I disagree. I think it's something called accountability, and I
think showing up and actually giving the justification for way
you took the actions you did that ultimately I think
made the cost of living worse. Actually I think caused
huge suffer for lower middle income New Zealanders in particular.
Actually they need to be called to account on that.
But ultimately their.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Called who is the bigger hypocrite, Dune and Robertson because
they're no longer accountable, or Hopkins and Verril, who are well.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I think you know, Hopkins are Vera making a case
they want to leave the country again, and I think
it'll be a disaster, but I think they should at
least show up and actually front. But again, you know,
it's their decision. And I just say, you know, I
get what they're trying to do politically. If you're Chris Haipkins,
you want to get out from under the rock, which
is your last record when you're in government, where the
economy got worse, you know, Lauren order God worse, health
(01:34):
and education got worse. I get it. He wants to
gas light and just move on from that pass. But
I think you should front.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Do you know what they're paying Dentons or what the
taxpayer is paying Dentons in terms of legal representation, No idea.
Will that come up at some point somewhere. Where does
that money come from? Is that in the leader of
the old comes out of a budget.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I think there's a long standing convention that if governments
are former ministers from previous governments, a sort of I
have to go forward on any you know, incurr any
legal costs for claims like this, it's picked up by
the taxpayer. So that's that's quite normal convention.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Okay, speaking money for the taxpayer. The break fee on
the Interro Islander. Is that negotiable or will it change
in any way if the company concerned happens to end
up with the tender. No.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think this is a final net what we owe them,
irrespective of what comes next. It's a lot cheaper. It's
one hundred and forty five million dollars. It's a lot
cheaper than what people were saying at three hundred million dollars.
I think Winston's saying, a really good job to negotiate
a way out of that. It sounds a bit counterintuitive
to everybody because you basically had this I REX project
that was seven hundred and seventy five million blew out
(02:36):
to three point two on its way to four. We
had to deal with it in the second or third
week of a new government and get it right sized. Yes,
there's some brake fees and some sunk costs that you've
got to swallow and deal with, but the total total
investment we're going to make is going to be a
hell of a lot less than three point two.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So you're going to end up with So if you're
totally at four billion and so with the brake fees,
in fact, the total fees with the infrastructre stuff came
to something like half a billion already, So between them
half a billion dollars plus whatever you buy a significantly
to correct.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Correct, and we will get a great solution for the
cook straight, very pragmatic, very practical, very for purpose. We'll
get the infrastructure at both ends sorted and actually Winstance
doing a great job. I think it's just cleaning that
up and getting that sorted.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So Nicola Willis is in the UK. Was in the UK.
She's talking to Bloomberger. You're telling Bloomberg more about Winston
and his movement on foreign buyers, buying houses than we've
been told here in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I know you have afflicted me every week on that one,
and we are weeks away from that one, and so
I'll have more to say about that.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
When you say we're weeks away, What do you mean
by that it goes She said it's going to cabinet
in the next couple of weeks. Does she mean it's
going to cabinet in the next couple of weeks because
we've got a deal, we'll put it in cabinet, they'll
take it off and then we'll make the announcement.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Correct, So the deal as of this morning is essentially done.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, there were there were process working its way through
cabinet because there's actually regulation, legislation involved and overturning it.
So you've actually got an a think through the pole,
get the thinking straight, and then you've actually got to
take it to cabinet and then obviously then draft a
piece of legislation.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Then you know when will it be done as in legislation,
cabinet go as.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Fast as we possibly can. I think it'll be one
of those things you'd want to do under under urgency
and go through it.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yes, absolutely, Okay, So as you sit here talking to
me this morning, there was actually an agreement between you
and Peter's. Yeah, we've got we've got a.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Proposal which we take to cabinet obviously a final decisions
made sure, and that's taking it.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
To cabinet today.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Well, well we're taking we're taking in the next few weeks.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I would have thought it was way more more urgent
than that. Well, there's a lot that goes through cabinet.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
There's a lot of things for us to discuss, but
we've got we've got the we've got a paper which
we'll then go forward from here where you then make
the final decision in cabinet.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
The electricity Authority last week and out some sort of
investigation into the industry and pricing and stuff like that.
It is claimed in part anyway, a bunch of users
wrote to you and said, we're sick and tired of this,
have a look at it. Is that what drove it?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Well, I think there's everyone's frustrated with electricity, right, I mean,
what we're seeing is it's a big contributor to the
cost of living and inflation. Particularly. It's actually the transmission
part of it that's led to the increase in electricity.
Everyone's got a letter from their gen Taylor that sort
of says prices are going up. That's really the piece
that's been the expensive part, the transmission piece. Look, what
(05:18):
we've had to do here is there's quite a few
aur venues to what's happening in our energy market at
the moment. I mean, the first thing was this oil
and gas band reversal, which we did two weeks ago,
has been good. We've got two hundred million dollars set
aside so we can get gas, which actually is necessary
for us. We've also put a strategic coal reserve together
so that actually you know, if it's going to be
driverer or scare, we've actually don't have our prices going
(05:40):
through the roof. All of that's just starting to calm
it down a lot than what it has been, and
that actually projects forward pricing quite well. Other people know that.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
The reason they asked the question is where were they
last year? If the people write to you and they
suddenly go, hell, we better be seen to be doing something.
Where were they last year when it was really bad?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well, last year was really bad?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I mean, well, what do they do on the wide
I mean.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
The wholesale electricity prices last year getting up to I
think even up to fifteen hundred dollars fifteen times.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
It doesn't stringy one at the electricity authority go jeez,
I wonder if we might want to look at this.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
We'd have to ask them. All I can do is
I know that there's several components to the energy market
that I have to get fax. One is I have
to have certainty of supply so we can't have an
issue where the lights get turned off like we were
experiencing last year and people start losing their jobs. That's
about having a coal reserve. People don't like that. People
can be a lot of grief about that. But I'm sorry,
but actually low prices are much more important than sort
(06:32):
of managing emissions at this point in time.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
That is true. Having seid all of that water done well.
This is my next concern ongoing. So there are a
number of councils in the country who have been written
to by the Internal Affairs Department that the smaller councils
they've decided to go it alone. The Internal Affairs have
written and gone that doesn't look good enough to us. Yep,
what if they go it alone and it all goes
tits up.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well again, you know, their plans have to get signed
off by the minister. That was part of the deal
with the legislation, so they've got to the first of
September to get their proposals together. There are some really
good examples where councils are collaborating really well and actually
putting together proper management of those assets. I think it's interesting,
Like the best example was actually all Clantier. I remember
when Wayne Brown was proposing a twenty four percent rate rise,
(07:15):
and then we put water Care into a different asset structure.
It's not sexy stuff, but a different entity and as
a result, it could borrow better for long run assets.
And the actually rates went up six percent or six
or seven percent or so last year, and that freed
up eight hundred million dollars from the council's budget to
spend on other infrastructure rather than worry about three waters.
So that structure is the right way to go.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
My concern is though, that so internal revenue, internal affair
is right to them. So we don't like the look
of it. The Minister will go because of that. You're
not allowed to.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Be He has powers to make interventions to make sure
that they are going to run those assets and manage
them properly and that financially they'll be able to manage that.
And if he's not assured on both those points.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So what will they do? What will the council who
wants to go it alone do when the minister goes,
you can't do that as the minister then go you
need to buddy up with councils, right, so correct so
they tell you what to do. So really it's Hobson's choice,
isn't it. There's no choice, you know, you do.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
We want these assets managed properly. That's the problem. They
haven't been run properly. I mean, you've got perverse situations
where you got council's increasing rates for what's called operating
expenditure to pay out on capital expenditure, which is building
out pipes and stuff like that. So we're just saying, look,
we've got to professionally manage these assets. I think the
vast majority of councils are getting there. There's been some
really good examples, and it's difficult because district councils are
(08:33):
having to actually collaborate on this stuff, having to collaborate
on regional and city deals. That's all a good thing
because there's a lot of duplication. As you can see
today we're going to announce the building code authorities, which
are there's a gazillion of them. Actually they can merge
those together as well, so the more experience they yet
actually working together as subregions of New Zealand and doing
it from the grassroots up on three waters, on regional plans,
(08:55):
on building bas is actually good stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
You mentioned Wayane Brown has tax, it goes, doesn't even
cost you anything. Do you give them a bed tax
or do you worry about the broader picture in this
country that the more expensive you make it to come
to New Zealand. Did a country already.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Worried about just adding a new tax? Now is not
the time for a tax. We have to get the
show growing and growth is really where we've got to
focus on. Yes, we've got a bed tax is actually
quite an interesting idea. It's not something I'm going to
look at this term. It's not something we're considering at all.
But for where we are in this cycle where people
are doing it tough, another tax ain't the way forward.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
The Supreme Court and the river bed decision last week.
Does that in any way, shape or form change what
you're doing around foreshore?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
And see, I saw that legislation come that, that ruling
come through I think on Thursday or Friday Friday, and
will take a bit of time to digest that and
understand that. As you know, on the Macha side, we've decided,
after digesting the last Supreme Court ruling on the seat
on the coastal areas, for us to go back into
Parliament and actually pass the law to make it back
to what its original intent was, which was the balance
(09:56):
customer right and also the rights of all Newlanders.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Has Amanda knowing you in your entire married life to
be as bad at dancing as.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
You were, mates, I've got rhythm. I went to the
pepper Nui Asa when it was school ball season in
Langdon's Road, christ Church, and that lady at the instructing
us told me that I had rhythm. And I believe
that ever.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Since you sat with a straight face. Yeah she did.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I think she genuinely thought I haven't seen so much
rhythm in one individual for so long.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Nice to see you, Prime Minister Christopher Lux for more
from the mic, asking Breakfast. Listen live to news talks
it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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