November 4, 2024 • 10 mins
The Prime Minister is standing by the Government's military-style boot camp programme.
Under the programme, children are spending three months in a youth justice residence and nine months getting community support under the current pilot programme.
A leaked document from Children's Minister Karen Chhour has suggested giving military-style academy providers the power to use force could increase the risk of abuse.
But Christopher Luxon told Mike Hosking there are psychologists and social workers involved who are looking after the interests of young people.
He says they are up at 6:30, in uniform, with a high level of physical training, but they're also writing resumes, thinking about job interviews, and have all the support they need.
Luxon says that comparing the programme to abuse in state care is disingenuous.
He told Hosking there was no oversight or monitoring decades ago, but they are now focused on care and rehabilitation.
He says they have multiple layers of protection, and the checks and balances are there.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Another person running a country at the moment, as Christopher
Luxan now Prime Minister. Good morning to.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You, Good morning Mike how I am very well.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Indeed your Christmas decorations up at.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Home, they're not yet, but we're getting date. We've started
the conversation Amanda and I. So yeah, we try and
get it early, and we try and close it.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Out early, close pre Christmas or your.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Move twenty six, twenty six of Foxing Day, but just
by virtue of what happened in the rest of our
life over that summer period. But I can imagine the
hosting household. You've been trimmled for some time. You've probably
got into.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Well, we just came to a bit of a bit
of a head yesterday is what happened. Anyway, But enough
of this now listen this report. You're aware of the
leak this morning, the ministerial document. This is the military academies.
By the way, yesterday in the post cap conference, you
spoke eloquently, I thought, almost emotionally about what you've seen.
When did you go what did you see in what's happening?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, Look, I mean I just think that's pretty disingenuous
to compare what's happened in the past and the seventies,
particularly through the abuse and state care type programs that
were up and running, and what we're trying to do
here down and probably spent three hours with those young men.
They are some of our toughest candidates in terms of
serious young offenders. I was really impressed. One is there's
(01:09):
incredible people around them, Like the staff to kid ratio
is really really high. Their senior psychologists as social workers,
there's a heap of support in there. There's really good oversight.
But most importantly, I actually got to talk to these
young guys and you could see, Okay, what's made the difference,
and the point was actually people care. I've come from
a rubbish environment, typically bad family background. I end up
(01:32):
in here and people actually are taking an interest in
me and are investing in me. And so they were
doing things like trying to get qualified to be able
to do, you know, work on roads for example. They
a couple of them actually had worked with contractors on
site at the center, either volunteered to help out concretors
and landscapers, and some of them had actually been even
(01:53):
offer jobs and so you know, we've got you know,
this was I think it's been a really good program,
and I think, you know, I know, people want to
sort of dumb it down to a boot camp and
imagine a sergeant major shouting at these kids. Yep, they're
up at six thirty. Yes they're in uniform. Yes they've
got a high degree of physical training. But they've also
got all the other support that they need to and
they're writing resumes and they are thinking about interviews and
(02:15):
job interviews and all that sort of good stuff. So
you know, the three months in the residential part has
been a huge success. Now the challenge really begins because
each of them has a social worker if they come
back into life, and we've got to make sure obviously
they don't go back to bad environments, and we're try
and make a shift there as well.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So we should try someone You, because you were the
Prime Minister and gave you the middle finger as you
walked out. You're convinced that someone's working there.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and the caliber of the team
that we assemble to actually work with these kids, because remember,
we want to see whether we can actually use this
as a means by which we can learn something about
how to upgrade our performance and all these residential facilities.
It was really fantastic and so you know, honestly, the
management around them, the focus on care, rehabilitation, and the
(03:00):
multiple hours of protection oversight, all that good stuff was fantastic.
And I think, you know, they've got a purpose, and
I think that's half the thing, right, how do we
get our young people to have mission and purpose and
get connected to something and then you know, you know,
life has meaning.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Okay, Having said that, so the leak this morning is
and the alarmism is around when you go to pass
the legislation, because it's important to point out this is
the trial and you haven't passed the legislation. When you
pass the legislation, will were people running these courses have
the power to use force?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Well that'll be ultimately a decision for the operators in
the program. And I'm not close enough to what they
need or.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You either get you either give them the power to
use force or you don't. They don't make it up.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, Well, I'm just not in that position like to
comment on that as to why it would be used
or how it would be used for restraint or other things.
But what I can say is what I saw was
actually quite a different whole is actually to engage the stocks.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
It's a different idea. We're not playing this dumb game.
You're setting the rules and that the rules have been gave.
Do you give the providers the power to use force
or not?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I haven't had those conversations. I haven't been with briefed
on that. Sorry with who? What do you mean with
the conversations with who? Who are you talking to? We're
not talking to as the case may be. Well, I mean,
it hasn't been a topic of conversation that we've tad with,
you know, Karen Sura and myself as the minister.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
There's something going on here. Don't bs me on this, Karen.
I'm not I'm not refusers to speak. Karen Shaw is
refusing to speak to anyone about this.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Why I don't know, But I just say to you,
I mean, feel free to keep reaching out to her office.
I'm all I'm saying is I'm not aware that we've
actually got you know that. That's actually it's not something
I've been briefed on. It's not something that I'm aware of.
It's not something that I would should be involved in.
Those closest to it should make those calls and decisions
with what they need.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So you don't you don't think that if you give
people force and they go whack somebody around the head
when they're in the military camp, that's not going to
come back to buy you and the bum on this program.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
That's well, what I'm interested in is have we got
layers of child safeguarding and protection and oversight which has
been a consistent problem across our care of kids for
decades now, as evidenced by the abuse and state care.
So what we're focused on here is making sure that
we get all the support services in. We've got a
great ratio, as I said, of psychologists and social workers
to each kid, and we've got the oversight and the
(05:19):
protection that we need. But those decisions as to precisely
how that all comes together and how it's deployed will
be made by OT who are operating these facilities, but.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
OT the incompetence who have got us into this mess
in the first place.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well, again, I just say to you that what I've
experienced with these military academies and what I'm seeing on
the ground and the interaction with the young people and
the quality of the staff that are around them, I've
been really really impressed, and I think that's a very
very different.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I wrought these things to work. But here's the problem.
I mean, next week you're apologizing for a generation of
people who went into state care and we're abused, and
so you've got another form of which is a military academy.
You want to do the right thing. The talk is
the right thing. You're arguing, there's evidence of the right thing,
but when you go to pass the legislation, you can't
answer the question where you're going to boot them up
(06:08):
the bum, whack them around the head and treat them badly. Well,
what I'd just.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Say to you, though, is that I think it's a
bit Well. What I said yesterday is why it's so
disingenuous is if you think about the examples and the
abuse of state care, there was like unvested, unqualified staff
that doesn't happen today. They were isolated and pretty appalling
conditions on Great Barrier and other places. You know, we've
actually got three months residential, nine month at home. They
were focused on abuse and punishment. We're focused on care
and rehabilitation. There was no oversight on monitoring like any
(06:34):
of these We've got multiple layers of protection and oversight
we've actually got, and sure the kids also have great
independent advocacy services as well, so the checks and balances
are there. As to the inherit's all operationalized. That's ultimately
got to be a decision to a manager that we
hold accountable for delivering that.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Here's the counter here's the counter argument. Not providing these
powers would mean staff outside of the residential setting would
be exposed to legal risk of they tried to prevent
a young person from absconding or from harming themselves or
harming another person. Given this risk, I consider that clear
authority is needed. In other words, they can use force
as a concept. Then, given you haven't had discussions, does
(07:10):
that sit comfortably with you?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
No? I want to make sure that there is multiple
approaches around oversight and protection of those young people. And
so that's where I'd be coming down in that conversation
when we get to have that conversation.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yes, but multiple oversight of the ability to use force,
or multiple oversight of the ability not to be able
to use.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Force not to use force. I think I appreciate these
are really difficult kids and individuals, but the history here
is shocking and what I really want to see as
a culture shift and change to focus on the care, rehabilitation,
the layers of protection and oversight and child safeguarding, and
that is something that I think consistently across our system.
We've done a very poor job.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
At Okay, Also out of yesterday's postcab, why don't the
media understand that Winston Peter's meeting the Trade Minister of India,
whether or not it's in Melbourne doesn't matter. It's the
meeting that counts, and we need to do business to
grow the economy, so we make the money. So when
they then go and ask about the blood cancer products,
you can go, well, because we grew the economy, we
(08:12):
have the money to spend on that. How come they
can't join those simple dots.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well. I try and communicate it as best as I
possibly can. Like but that is a very important meeting
for us because to sit down with Penny Wong, our
only ally and foreign minister, and what we call the
one plus one or the two plus two with US
finance ministers coming together and meeting formally. And then also
to have doctor j. Shunka, who was without doubt one
of the influential Secretaries of State anywhere from any country
in the world being there, and I've met with him
(08:38):
twice now myself. He is very very influential, but also
very very thoughtful, and so the fact that Winston Peter's
has a good relationship with him, the fact I have
a good relationship with him, is about making sure we
build breadth and depth in the relationship with India, because
you got to ask a question, how do these things
get done? You've got to build the relationships first. That's
why mcclay's been to India six times. That's why Winston's
(09:00):
been there once. I've spoken to Modi twice and met
with him once. I've met with Jay Shunka twice. Now
we've hosted the Indian president. We build the case and
that's why we've now got an invitation to go to
India next year with a delegation to start the trading
process and how we can deepen up trade. I think
the thing I was really proud about, to be honest, Mike,
and illustrative what we're trying to do in India but
(09:21):
also all around the world. As you had this deal
with the GCC that's been going on into successive governments
now for eighteen years it was stopped. Mcclaary started it
in February and he concluded it on the weekend. The
guy came in from Saturday morning from the GCC, came
to the Seeker Show with me on Saturday, and on
Sunday fired out to China to actually take a delegation
seventy companies up there for their biggest important export conference.
(09:43):
So you know, we are hustling and moving. When I've
said to you in the past, you know we're heading
this with intensity. That's what we're trying to do because
why court of our jobs tried up with trade. You know,
companies that export have seven to ten percent high wages
and salary. So it's got to be part of the
way forward for us to lift the joint and lift
our quality lo hing standards.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Appreciate thom as always Prime Minister Christoph Lackson. For more
from The Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to News Talks
at b from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
Another person running a country at the moment, as Christopher
Luxan now Prime Minister. Good morning to.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You, Good morning Mike how I am very well.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Indeed your Christmas decorations up at.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Home, they're not yet, but we're getting date. We've started
the conversation Amanda and I. So yeah, we try and
get it early, and we try and close it.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Out early, close pre Christmas or your.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Move twenty six, twenty six of Foxing Day, but just
by virtue of what happened in the rest of our
life over that summer period. But I can imagine the
hosting household. You've been trimmled for some time. You've probably
got into.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Well, we just came to a bit of a bit
of a head yesterday is what happened. Anyway, But enough
of this now listen this report. You're aware of the
leak this morning, the ministerial document. This is the military academies.
By the way, yesterday in the post cap conference, you
spoke eloquently, I thought, almost emotionally about what you've seen.
When did you go what did you see in what's happening?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, Look, I mean I just think that's pretty disingenuous
to compare what's happened in the past and the seventies,
particularly through the abuse and state care type programs that
were up and running, and what we're trying to do
here down and probably spent three hours with those young men.
They are some of our toughest candidates in terms of
serious young offenders. I was really impressed. One is there's
(01:09):
incredible people around them, Like the staff to kid ratio
is really really high. Their senior psychologists as social workers,
there's a heap of support in there. There's really good oversight.
But most importantly, I actually got to talk to these
young guys and you could see, Okay, what's made the difference,
and the point was actually people care. I've come from
a rubbish environment, typically bad family background. I end up
(01:32):
in here and people actually are taking an interest in
me and are investing in me. And so they were
doing things like trying to get qualified to be able
to do, you know, work on roads for example. They
a couple of them actually had worked with contractors on
site at the center, either volunteered to help out concretors
and landscapers, and some of them had actually been even
(01:53):
offer jobs and so you know, we've got you know,
this was I think it's been a really good program,
and I think, you know, I know, people want to
sort of dumb it down to a boot camp and
imagine a sergeant major shouting at these kids. Yep, they're
up at six thirty. Yes they're in uniform. Yes they've
got a high degree of physical training. But they've also
got all the other support that they need to and
they're writing resumes and they are thinking about interviews and
(02:15):
job interviews and all that sort of good stuff. So
you know, the three months in the residential part has
been a huge success. Now the challenge really begins because
each of them has a social worker if they come
back into life, and we've got to make sure obviously
they don't go back to bad environments, and we're try
and make a shift there as well.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So we should try someone You, because you were the
Prime Minister and gave you the middle finger as you
walked out. You're convinced that someone's working there.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and the caliber of the team
that we assemble to actually work with these kids, because remember,
we want to see whether we can actually use this
as a means by which we can learn something about
how to upgrade our performance and all these residential facilities.
It was really fantastic and so you know, honestly, the
management around them, the focus on care, rehabilitation, and the
(03:00):
multiple hours of protection oversight, all that good stuff was fantastic.
And I think, you know, they've got a purpose, and
I think that's half the thing, right, how do we
get our young people to have mission and purpose and
get connected to something and then you know, you know,
life has meaning.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Okay, Having said that, so the leak this morning is
and the alarmism is around when you go to pass
the legislation, because it's important to point out this is
the trial and you haven't passed the legislation. When you
pass the legislation, will were people running these courses have
the power to use force?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Well that'll be ultimately a decision for the operators in
the program. And I'm not close enough to what they
need or.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You either get you either give them the power to
use force or you don't. They don't make it up.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, Well, I'm just not in that position like to
comment on that as to why it would be used
or how it would be used for restraint or other things.
But what I can say is what I saw was
actually quite a different whole is actually to engage the stocks.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
It's a different idea. We're not playing this dumb game.
You're setting the rules and that the rules have been gave.
Do you give the providers the power to use force
or not?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I haven't had those conversations. I haven't been with briefed
on that. Sorry with who? What do you mean with
the conversations with who? Who are you talking to? We're
not talking to as the case may be. Well, I mean,
it hasn't been a topic of conversation that we've tad with,
you know, Karen Sura and myself as the minister.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
There's something going on here. Don't bs me on this, Karen.
I'm not I'm not refusers to speak. Karen Shaw is
refusing to speak to anyone about this.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Why I don't know, But I just say to you,
I mean, feel free to keep reaching out to her office.
I'm all I'm saying is I'm not aware that we've
actually got you know that. That's actually it's not something
I've been briefed on. It's not something that I'm aware of.
It's not something that I would should be involved in.
Those closest to it should make those calls and decisions
with what they need.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So you don't you don't think that if you give
people force and they go whack somebody around the head
when they're in the military camp, that's not going to
come back to buy you and the bum on this program.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
That's well, what I'm interested in is have we got
layers of child safeguarding and protection and oversight which has
been a consistent problem across our care of kids for
decades now, as evidenced by the abuse and state care.
So what we're focused on here is making sure that
we get all the support services in. We've got a
great ratio, as I said, of psychologists and social workers
to each kid, and we've got the oversight and the
(05:19):
protection that we need. But those decisions as to precisely
how that all comes together and how it's deployed will
be made by OT who are operating these facilities, but.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
OT the incompetence who have got us into this mess
in the first place.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well, again, I just say to you that what I've
experienced with these military academies and what I'm seeing on
the ground and the interaction with the young people and
the quality of the staff that are around them, I've
been really really impressed, and I think that's a very
very different.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I wrought these things to work. But here's the problem.
I mean, next week you're apologizing for a generation of
people who went into state care and we're abused, and
so you've got another form of which is a military academy.
You want to do the right thing. The talk is
the right thing. You're arguing, there's evidence of the right thing,
but when you go to pass the legislation, you can't
answer the question where you're going to boot them up
(06:08):
the bum, whack them around the head and treat them badly. Well,
what I'd just.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Say to you, though, is that I think it's a
bit Well. What I said yesterday is why it's so
disingenuous is if you think about the examples and the
abuse of state care, there was like unvested, unqualified staff
that doesn't happen today. They were isolated and pretty appalling
conditions on Great Barrier and other places. You know, we've
actually got three months residential, nine month at home. They
were focused on abuse and punishment. We're focused on care
and rehabilitation. There was no oversight on monitoring like any
(06:34):
of these We've got multiple layers of protection and oversight
we've actually got, and sure the kids also have great
independent advocacy services as well, so the checks and balances
are there. As to the inherit's all operationalized. That's ultimately
got to be a decision to a manager that we
hold accountable for delivering that.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Here's the counter here's the counter argument. Not providing these
powers would mean staff outside of the residential setting would
be exposed to legal risk of they tried to prevent
a young person from absconding or from harming themselves or
harming another person. Given this risk, I consider that clear
authority is needed. In other words, they can use force
as a concept. Then, given you haven't had discussions, does
(07:10):
that sit comfortably with you?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
No? I want to make sure that there is multiple
approaches around oversight and protection of those young people. And
so that's where I'd be coming down in that conversation
when we get to have that conversation.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yes, but multiple oversight of the ability to use force,
or multiple oversight of the ability not to be able
to use.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Force not to use force. I think I appreciate these
are really difficult kids and individuals, but the history here
is shocking and what I really want to see as
a culture shift and change to focus on the care, rehabilitation,
the layers of protection and oversight and child safeguarding, and
that is something that I think consistently across our system.
We've done a very poor job.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
At Okay, Also out of yesterday's postcab, why don't the
media understand that Winston Peter's meeting the Trade Minister of India,
whether or not it's in Melbourne doesn't matter. It's the
meeting that counts, and we need to do business to
grow the economy, so we make the money. So when
they then go and ask about the blood cancer products,
you can go, well, because we grew the economy, we
(08:12):
have the money to spend on that. How come they
can't join those simple dots.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well. I try and communicate it as best as I
possibly can. Like but that is a very important meeting
for us because to sit down with Penny Wong, our
only ally and foreign minister, and what we call the
one plus one or the two plus two with US
finance ministers coming together and meeting formally. And then also
to have doctor j. Shunka, who was without doubt one
of the influential Secretaries of State anywhere from any country
in the world being there, and I've met with him
(08:38):
twice now myself. He is very very influential, but also
very very thoughtful, and so the fact that Winston Peter's
has a good relationship with him, the fact I have
a good relationship with him, is about making sure we
build breadth and depth in the relationship with India, because
you got to ask a question, how do these things
get done? You've got to build the relationships first. That's
why mcclay's been to India six times. That's why Winston's
(09:00):
been there once. I've spoken to Modi twice and met
with him once. I've met with Jay Shunka twice. Now
we've hosted the Indian president. We build the case and
that's why we've now got an invitation to go to
India next year with a delegation to start the trading
process and how we can deepen up trade. I think
the thing I was really proud about, to be honest, Mike,
and illustrative what we're trying to do in India but
(09:21):
also all around the world. As you had this deal
with the GCC that's been going on into successive governments
now for eighteen years it was stopped. Mcclaary started it
in February and he concluded it on the weekend. The
guy came in from Saturday morning from the GCC, came
to the Seeker Show with me on Saturday, and on
Sunday fired out to China to actually take a delegation
seventy companies up there for their biggest important export conference.
(09:43):
So you know, we are hustling and moving. When I've
said to you in the past, you know we're heading
this with intensity. That's what we're trying to do because
why court of our jobs tried up with trade. You know,
companies that export have seven to ten percent high wages
and salary. So it's got to be part of the
way forward for us to lift the joint and lift
our quality lo hing standards.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Appreciate thom as always Prime Minister Christoph Lackson. For more
from The Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to News Talks
at b from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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