February 17, 2025 • 10 mins
The Prime Minister's open to axing entire Government agencies, saying there's probably too many.
Public Service Commissioner Sir Brian Roche says he's considering the idea of cutting whole departments and bringing others together.
Christopher Luxon told Mike Hosking he wants more efficiency in the public sector and is open to departments being scrapped.
He says there are many small agencies that lack scale, and they need to be better focused on core business.
Luxon also says New Zealand needs to do more to keep on top of illegal immigration.
Associate Immigration Minister Chris Penk is considering the case of Kiwi born 18-year-old Damen Kumar.
Kumar's parents have been living as overstayers for 24 years.
Luxon says he can't comment on the individual case, but he told Hosking people need to follow the immigration process.
He says illegal immigration is unfair for people who have followed the rules.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Tuesday morning, Prime Minster. Chrystopher Luxan, though joins us first,
good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Good morning, Mike, how are you today?
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Very well? Indeed, did you do anything for Valentine's Day?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Do you know what? I didn't?
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Actually, because every day is Valentine's Day and the luxe
and household.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Is that your wife is sick of hearing.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It's a reason for no. We sat down.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I think we had dinner on our on our laps,
and I think we started watching. There was some Netflix
show we started getting into, not the Brian Apple side
of vinegar. Really, it was that terrible story about social
media influences and leading people.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I've heard that crap Brian Johnson you are into. Do
you think he's mad or not?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
He's intense.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I mean, I just think you've got to enjoy life
as well somewhere along the way. But there's something that
he's doing that's at the edge, and that's always interesting
because he's obviously body hacking and trying to find a
way to age negatively age. But he'd be an interesting
guy to talk to if you could ever get him one.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
But I think, well, Sammy's on and you talk to
Sammy every week and no one's better at getting people
on the program. He can do it, Sam will do
so either that or will sack them. Speaking of which,
Brian roach. He appears to be very very good at
what he does because he's worked out the public service
isn't up to scratch and he's looking at blowing up departments.
(01:20):
Is this doge in Z style?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Well, I mean, first of all, he's an excellent hire,
and I've known Brian for a long time. He's going
to be great at this job. What we really want
is a much more efficient, effective public service. I want
them focused on a few things. We've got to get
the right leaders into these big agencies and big departments,
the big organizations, and when you get the right leader
at the top, it makes all the difference through the organization.
I also want I'm working hard on talent development, So,
(01:45):
like you know, we've got probably two hundred and fifty
imagined fantastic public servants that you want to develop and
give them bigger jobs, give them opportunities to do stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I think you're right.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
We manage a lot of complexity and government is my
observation a year and a bit into this job. We
need much more simplicity means sort of sharpening up agencies
and portfolios and simplifying all of that.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
That would be great.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
And I think the other thing I've asked them to
focus on is, you know, we need to think about
the the media. Give me grief when I say this,
but I think it's right. Is that the public is
my customer, and you know, we need these to be
service led organizations that have customers, which is the New
Zealand public. And I think digitization actually thinking through the
customer issues as to what it's like dealing with the
(02:25):
government agency and how we use digital skills in particular
to do a better job of better customer service is important.
So you know, I think we're really aligned and I'm
really excited about him because.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You see.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Him and or you blowing up some government departments they
no longer.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
May well be the case.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I think, you know, where we've got a lot of
small agencies that lack scale is probably too many of
them at times that I want every agency really focused
on what its core business actually is. I want them
to be curious, I want them to actually be creating value.
I want them to be very customer focused. And so yep,
that's one of the things I've asked them to think
through is you know, how do we get things simpler?
(03:05):
So that and then when you've got things simple, then
you can hold people to account for what they're there
to do and deliver.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, So now that sort of answers my question to
the extent that the Kumar case, which is interesting, somebody
text me and said they can't have been contributing income
tax for twenty four years if they were overstars. My
argument would be, I bet you they could have. They
ran their own business because ID wouldn't share enough information
with the appropriate people, and that's how you stay in
the country illegally for twenty four years. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Look, I think there's a whole bunch of questions that
that case will never be thrown up on. I've got
to be careful because, as you know, legally, I've got
you know, Chris Penker's associate min it's just reviewing it
all and it's not.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Appropriate I talk about the specifics of that case.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
My bigger point is that it's really important given we've
had so many New New Zealanders come in to New
Zealand over the last twenty years who have actually done
the right thing and followed legal immigration processes, right, and
it's unfair when people don't do that. And that's why
I do want us to be much more vigilant on
making sure we you know, uphold legal immigration. It's really important.
(04:05):
It's it's a fairness point. That's a key principle of
being a key we as that if you've worked hard
and you've actually done the followed the process and come
to this country because you believe in it and you've
followed the law and the rules, that's that's fantastic. And
actually those people, they are often the people that are
most vociferous about the folk that have gone around it illegally.
So you know, we've got to do a better job
obviously making sure that we are on top of it.
(04:27):
And you know, I know Erko Stampa's got resources to
look into some of that as well to make sure
that's been It.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Might well be for Pink the hardest thing you ever does,
because how do you boot a country? I mean, they
deserve to be booted out because they are legals, but
the kids it's not his fault. So what do you do?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, yeah, look, I mean these are classic cases of
illegal immigration you see all around the world. And it's
a really difficult case. There's massive amounts of emotion in it.
There'll be you know, you know, a whole bunch of
considerations that.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
He's got to do. It's a really tough job, really
tough job.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
But you know, the immigration officials have come to their
view now it finally comes to the station.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Of course, because he's got all the information, hasn't he.
I mean, there's nothing stopping and making the decision literally now,
is there? Because he can do anything he wants. What
else does he need to know?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, he's got a chance to go ask some questions
of the officials and understand the case well and to
make an assessment. But yeah, he got handed I think
at the end of last week. So you know, he'll
move through it as quickly as he can. But he's
got to do it fairly. He's got a you know,
there's a whole bunch of implications that come from whatever
decision he makes, obviously, but you know, I trust him.
He's you know, it's a difficult job weighing up these
individual cases because everyone's you know, if it was easy,
(05:32):
it would have been sorted.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
And ultimately the buck stops with him.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I sort of I understood your defense yesterday post cab
on the boot camp thing, and you did spook it
and Chure especially spooked it and told us about all
the kids that we're going to do well, and then
suddenly we clam up shut. So I sided with the
media on that. But what they didn't do yesterday is
talk about that report and the report having read it
by and large as positive, isn't.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
There some good stuff?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
It is, It is positive. I mean there was.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
I mean, you've got kids here, Mike, who are are
most serious sort of young persistent offenders. Now, they are
the toughest kids and they end up in a facility
like that, and that's how they got deemed to put
onto this pilot. There was lots that we did really
well on the residential facility. You know, there was lots
of support around the kids. Yes, you know, there was
some really good things that happened. But the bit that
(06:18):
we need to work harder on is obviously the transition
back into community. Yes, there will be some reoffending for sure.
I'm not going to comment on that, as I said yesterday,
because I think there's issues before courts and kids going
through processes and this releative small number of them. But
it's not fair that promise to comments on it. But
there were positives in that, and I'm sorry. You know,
people keep being on saying, you know, it's not working. Well, Actually,
these kids are getting a breath and an intervention and
(06:39):
a choice about how they might want to live the
rest of their life, and if they've got people around
them for the first time that are actually building them
up and getting them focused and actually spending time with them.
The new legislation we're putting through the house very shortly
on the serious young offender will just mean that we've
got the flexibility to extend the time and residential care.
And for some of those kids, they probably could have
benefited for more time and residential care when they come
(07:00):
back in the community.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
You want the reports said though that I thought was obvious.
It didn't. It doesn't have enough staff. Why not?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Well, it it did have a heap of staff.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I mean specifically, there's not enough one on one support.
And the people who were doing it I felt under pressure,
and who can blame them because old world watching it
felt under pressure to perform. They need more support, So
why why wouldn't Why wouldn't you stack it up at
the front.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Well, we did.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I mean, we put a lot of people and a
lot of resources in there, and I visited that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
But I appreciate the staff.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
You know, we had expectations and intensity about that. There
were some really good things that happened. I don't think
we had any incidences of kid on kid violence, which
is you know, what happens in a lot of those
youth justice facilities. So there was some really good work
going on. I'm sure there's more that we can do
to support the staff in particular, and I think there's
a lot more we could be doing and making the
transition back into the community, which is always the hard part,
right But you know, I'm not giving up on these kids, Mike,
(07:50):
because actually we want them off community, and we want
them to take it out with a chance to reset
and also make a choice about what they want to
do for the next twenty years.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
It's the things that's worry me. So I know it's
all politics and everything, but the amount of energy that's
been put in by some people to pile on this
thing and and to sink it before it starts is upsetting.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
And now, listen, this is a lot to me you
don't like it, but actually I don't care, because you
either to do the right thing by these kids and
you give them a shot to churn their lives around
and then make the choice.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Now speaking which this committee that Goldsmith set up back
in September to look at retail crime with old Sonny
Koschl who you hired to shut them up? Where the
hell was this? I'm reading this last night. Six months
and they what's been done?
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Well, just just just rewind a little bit, like retail
crime has gone up one hundred percent, it's cost us
over a billion dollars a year.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
As the reality of it.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Goldsmith's formed a ministerial advisory group. He's got people from
the front line.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I just told what's happened. Tell me what you're going
to do with six months? How was it tough?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
They're going to surface with some ideas.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I'm going to surface. How have they been?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
You watch for the rolling thunder, Mike Lusk that's coming.
But in all seriousness, they've actually got some pretty pragmatic,
common sense.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Sort of ideas.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
And we get two or three out of that group
good and are dealing with a billion dollar problem.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
That's going to be good. So watch this space rolling
Sundays shortly, very shortly, Michael.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Days or weeks, because I've got the headline Government quote leasures.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yep, there's some very provocative things in there, but I
think some very pragmatic, common sense things actually from the
front line that would be useful. And frankly, if we
get two or three things out of that group that
actually we can put into the system to get the
settings tighter and actually cut down on retail crime and
the same way we're cutting down on violent crime, that's good.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Would you put peacekeepers on the ground in Ukraine?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Look, I mean, I think we've got a long way
to go. I mean we're.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah, no, I get it. But I mean from our
point of view, we're very supportive of Ukraine. We are
actually in lockstep with the Brits. Actually, were we with
them training Ukrainian soldiers in the.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
UK Why I ask the question, are there because that's
what we do well.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
We'd be open to that, would be open to it.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
We've got a number of peacekeeping missions around the world,
but for us, we stand the Ukraine. It's important. You know,
we have these values about nation state sovereignty, you know,
rule of law. We've seen a big power just use
its power and coming over the top of a small country.
And most importantly we need Ukraine and emmeriation Russia there. Well,
we're talking about in general across the geopolitical landscape at
(10:16):
the moment. You know, the rules based system, as we say,
is breaking down when you've got big countries that are
acting out of power, not out on the basis of rules.
And for small countries like New Zealand, we care deeply
about that stuff because those are you know, from the
grace of God, that could be us.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So actually that's why we have real affinity with Ukraine.
But you know we'd be open to that.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Stop eating dinner on your knee. It's not healthy. This
is the body hacker, that's right. My chrys Lux and
the prime and still Christopher Luxon for more from the
Mic Asking Breakfast.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Listen live to news talks.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
Tuesday morning, Prime Minster. Chrystopher Luxan, though joins us first,
good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Good morning, Mike, how are you today?
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Very well? Indeed, did you do anything for Valentine's Day?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Do you know what? I didn't?
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Actually, because every day is Valentine's Day and the luxe
and household.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Is that your wife is sick of hearing.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It's a reason for no. We sat down.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I think we had dinner on our on our laps,
and I think we started watching. There was some Netflix
show we started getting into, not the Brian Apple side
of vinegar. Really, it was that terrible story about social
media influences and leading people.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I've heard that crap Brian Johnson you are into. Do
you think he's mad or not?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
He's intense.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I mean, I just think you've got to enjoy life
as well somewhere along the way. But there's something that
he's doing that's at the edge, and that's always interesting
because he's obviously body hacking and trying to find a
way to age negatively age. But he'd be an interesting
guy to talk to if you could ever get him one.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
But I think, well, Sammy's on and you talk to
Sammy every week and no one's better at getting people
on the program. He can do it, Sam will do
so either that or will sack them. Speaking of which,
Brian roach. He appears to be very very good at
what he does because he's worked out the public service
isn't up to scratch and he's looking at blowing up departments.
(01:20):
Is this doge in Z style?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Well, I mean, first of all, he's an excellent hire,
and I've known Brian for a long time. He's going
to be great at this job. What we really want
is a much more efficient, effective public service. I want
them focused on a few things. We've got to get
the right leaders into these big agencies and big departments,
the big organizations, and when you get the right leader
at the top, it makes all the difference through the organization.
I also want I'm working hard on talent development, So,
(01:45):
like you know, we've got probably two hundred and fifty
imagined fantastic public servants that you want to develop and
give them bigger jobs, give them opportunities to do stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I think you're right.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
We manage a lot of complexity and government is my
observation a year and a bit into this job. We
need much more simplicity means sort of sharpening up agencies
and portfolios and simplifying all of that.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
That would be great.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
And I think the other thing I've asked them to
focus on is, you know, we need to think about
the the media. Give me grief when I say this,
but I think it's right. Is that the public is
my customer, and you know, we need these to be
service led organizations that have customers, which is the New
Zealand public. And I think digitization actually thinking through the
customer issues as to what it's like dealing with the
(02:25):
government agency and how we use digital skills in particular
to do a better job of better customer service is important.
So you know, I think we're really aligned and I'm
really excited about him because.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You see.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Him and or you blowing up some government departments they
no longer.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
May well be the case.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I think, you know, where we've got a lot of
small agencies that lack scale is probably too many of
them at times that I want every agency really focused
on what its core business actually is. I want them
to be curious, I want them to actually be creating value.
I want them to be very customer focused. And so yep,
that's one of the things I've asked them to think
through is you know, how do we get things simpler?
(03:05):
So that and then when you've got things simple, then
you can hold people to account for what they're there
to do and deliver.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, So now that sort of answers my question to
the extent that the Kumar case, which is interesting, somebody
text me and said they can't have been contributing income
tax for twenty four years if they were overstars. My
argument would be, I bet you they could have. They
ran their own business because ID wouldn't share enough information
with the appropriate people, and that's how you stay in
the country illegally for twenty four years. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Look, I think there's a whole bunch of questions that
that case will never be thrown up on. I've got
to be careful because, as you know, legally, I've got
you know, Chris Penker's associate min it's just reviewing it
all and it's not.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Appropriate I talk about the specifics of that case.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
My bigger point is that it's really important given we've
had so many New New Zealanders come in to New
Zealand over the last twenty years who have actually done
the right thing and followed legal immigration processes, right, and
it's unfair when people don't do that. And that's why
I do want us to be much more vigilant on
making sure we you know, uphold legal immigration. It's really important.
(04:05):
It's it's a fairness point. That's a key principle of
being a key we as that if you've worked hard
and you've actually done the followed the process and come
to this country because you believe in it and you've
followed the law and the rules, that's that's fantastic. And
actually those people, they are often the people that are
most vociferous about the folk that have gone around it illegally.
So you know, we've got to do a better job
obviously making sure that we are on top of it.
(04:27):
And you know, I know Erko Stampa's got resources to
look into some of that as well to make sure
that's been It.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Might well be for Pink the hardest thing you ever does,
because how do you boot a country? I mean, they
deserve to be booted out because they are legals, but
the kids it's not his fault. So what do you do?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, yeah, look, I mean these are classic cases of
illegal immigration you see all around the world. And it's
a really difficult case. There's massive amounts of emotion in it.
There'll be you know, you know, a whole bunch of
considerations that.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
He's got to do. It's a really tough job, really
tough job.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
But you know, the immigration officials have come to their
view now it finally comes to the station.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Of course, because he's got all the information, hasn't he.
I mean, there's nothing stopping and making the decision literally now,
is there? Because he can do anything he wants. What
else does he need to know?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, he's got a chance to go ask some questions
of the officials and understand the case well and to
make an assessment. But yeah, he got handed I think
at the end of last week. So you know, he'll
move through it as quickly as he can. But he's
got to do it fairly. He's got a you know,
there's a whole bunch of implications that come from whatever
decision he makes, obviously, but you know, I trust him.
He's you know, it's a difficult job weighing up these
individual cases because everyone's you know, if it was easy,
(05:32):
it would have been sorted.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
And ultimately the buck stops with him.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I sort of I understood your defense yesterday post cab
on the boot camp thing, and you did spook it
and Chure especially spooked it and told us about all
the kids that we're going to do well, and then
suddenly we clam up shut. So I sided with the
media on that. But what they didn't do yesterday is
talk about that report and the report having read it
by and large as positive, isn't.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
There some good stuff?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
It is, It is positive. I mean there was.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
I mean, you've got kids here, Mike, who are are
most serious sort of young persistent offenders. Now, they are
the toughest kids and they end up in a facility
like that, and that's how they got deemed to put
onto this pilot. There was lots that we did really
well on the residential facility. You know, there was lots
of support around the kids. Yes, you know, there was
some really good things that happened. But the bit that
(06:18):
we need to work harder on is obviously the transition
back into community. Yes, there will be some reoffending for sure.
I'm not going to comment on that, as I said yesterday,
because I think there's issues before courts and kids going
through processes and this releative small number of them. But
it's not fair that promise to comments on it. But
there were positives in that, and I'm sorry. You know,
people keep being on saying, you know, it's not working. Well, Actually,
these kids are getting a breath and an intervention and
(06:39):
a choice about how they might want to live the
rest of their life, and if they've got people around
them for the first time that are actually building them
up and getting them focused and actually spending time with them.
The new legislation we're putting through the house very shortly
on the serious young offender will just mean that we've
got the flexibility to extend the time and residential care.
And for some of those kids, they probably could have
benefited for more time and residential care when they come
(07:00):
back in the community.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
You want the reports said though that I thought was obvious.
It didn't. It doesn't have enough staff. Why not?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Well, it it did have a heap of staff.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I mean specifically, there's not enough one on one support.
And the people who were doing it I felt under pressure,
and who can blame them because old world watching it
felt under pressure to perform. They need more support, So
why why wouldn't Why wouldn't you stack it up at
the front.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Well, we did.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I mean, we put a lot of people and a
lot of resources in there, and I visited that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
But I appreciate the staff.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
You know, we had expectations and intensity about that. There
were some really good things that happened. I don't think
we had any incidences of kid on kid violence, which
is you know, what happens in a lot of those
youth justice facilities. So there was some really good work
going on. I'm sure there's more that we can do
to support the staff in particular, and I think there's
a lot more we could be doing and making the
transition back into the community, which is always the hard part,
right But you know, I'm not giving up on these kids, Mike,
(07:50):
because actually we want them off community, and we want
them to take it out with a chance to reset
and also make a choice about what they want to
do for the next twenty years.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
It's the things that's worry me. So I know it's
all politics and everything, but the amount of energy that's
been put in by some people to pile on this
thing and and to sink it before it starts is upsetting.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
And now, listen, this is a lot to me you
don't like it, but actually I don't care, because you
either to do the right thing by these kids and
you give them a shot to churn their lives around
and then make the choice.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Now speaking which this committee that Goldsmith set up back
in September to look at retail crime with old Sonny
Koschl who you hired to shut them up? Where the
hell was this? I'm reading this last night. Six months
and they what's been done?
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Well, just just just rewind a little bit, like retail
crime has gone up one hundred percent, it's cost us
over a billion dollars a year.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
As the reality of it.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Goldsmith's formed a ministerial advisory group. He's got people from
the front line.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I just told what's happened. Tell me what you're going
to do with six months? How was it tough?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
They're going to surface with some ideas.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I'm going to surface. How have they been?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
You watch for the rolling thunder, Mike Lusk that's coming.
But in all seriousness, they've actually got some pretty pragmatic,
common sense.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Sort of ideas.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
And we get two or three out of that group
good and are dealing with a billion dollar problem.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
That's going to be good. So watch this space rolling
Sundays shortly, very shortly, Michael.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Days or weeks, because I've got the headline Government quote leasures.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yep, there's some very provocative things in there, but I
think some very pragmatic, common sense things actually from the
front line that would be useful. And frankly, if we
get two or three things out of that group that
actually we can put into the system to get the
settings tighter and actually cut down on retail crime and
the same way we're cutting down on violent crime, that's good.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Would you put peacekeepers on the ground in Ukraine?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Look, I mean, I think we've got a long way
to go. I mean we're.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah, no, I get it. But I mean from our
point of view, we're very supportive of Ukraine. We are
actually in lockstep with the Brits. Actually, were we with
them training Ukrainian soldiers in the.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
UK Why I ask the question, are there because that's
what we do well.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
We'd be open to that, would be open to it.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
We've got a number of peacekeeping missions around the world,
but for us, we stand the Ukraine. It's important. You know,
we have these values about nation state sovereignty, you know,
rule of law. We've seen a big power just use
its power and coming over the top of a small country.
And most importantly we need Ukraine and emmeriation Russia there. Well,
we're talking about in general across the geopolitical landscape at
(10:16):
the moment. You know, the rules based system, as we say,
is breaking down when you've got big countries that are
acting out of power, not out on the basis of rules.
And for small countries like New Zealand, we care deeply
about that stuff because those are you know, from the
grace of God, that could be us.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So actually that's why we have real affinity with Ukraine.
But you know we'd be open to that.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Stop eating dinner on your knee. It's not healthy. This
is the body hacker, that's right. My chrys Lux and
the prime and still Christopher Luxon for more from the
Mic Asking Breakfast.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Listen live to news talks.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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