Prime Minister Christopher Luxon is live in studio with Mike Hosking to talk the big issues of the week.
Luxon has confirmed the plan to commit $12 billion to defence, backing the decision for five marine helicopters.
He says the defence plan will make New Zealand well connected to global partners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Being a Monday, the Prime ministers in the studio. Good
to see you, and I believe parliament's back this week,
am I.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Clam and you'll be pleased. And three weeks sitting you're
going to deliver a budget over that period of time.
Isn't it great? We're back at work.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm so pleased here at a couple of a couple of things. First,
have you talked well? But yes I did.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I had a great chat with him yesterday morning. The
voice was very hoarse. I think he's probably still in
as pajamas, but he was obviously feeling pretty good after
a pretty emphatic win, as you saw.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Despite the ideological different size, Hume's business as usual and
we get on.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Well, yeah, it's really interesting actually even though we're different
political parties. I guess the center might be slightly different
in both countries. But actually, you know, Key got on
very well with Gillard and actually that some of the
best collaborations at a personal level have been from leaders
in different parties. Alban Easy I knew before I came
to politics, and so yeah, we've got a great friendship.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Actually, did you know Dutton.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I knew him a little bit. I met with him
a couple of times here in New Zealand, and I'd
sort of talked to him a few times when I
was over in Australia as well, So, you know, really
decent individual, I thought. I sent him a text and
spoke to him as well and just said, I thought
you gave a very classy concession speech, you know, pretty
difficult when he got a result like he got, and
wished him well for the future. Soe we appreciated that.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
So what do you make of the world. So much
is being made of you. You go and I know
you commented not yesterday, you go to stability and what
you know? And yet in Britain they didn't. Yeah, they
tipped it on its head. So is the world really
moving to what we know? Or I think the results
I looked out.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I spoke to Mark Carney yesterday as well in Canada,
and I also spoke with Lawrence Wong, the Singapore Prime
Minister as well. Different political system, but actually he lifted
his result in the popular vote, which was good. And
then obviously Anthony in Australia. And I think those three elections,
to say to you, people are acknowledging and I see it.
People are anxious about what's going on in the world
at the moment. We've also got coming through difficult times
(01:45):
with inflation and all of that stuff, and they want
strong economic management at uncertain times, you know, And that's
what you know, our government's been pretty relentlessly focused on
from day one because that's the thing that matters most
to New Islanders. And when you start talk about other
stuff other than that, that's not what they're interested in,
because they want you there to fix the problems that
they're experiencing.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
David Tamore says we've got too many ministers.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Is he correct, Well, nah, I think I think actually
it's about delivery of that public service, and so I'm
very comfortable with what the setup is, but I'm uncomfortable
with the performance we're getting out of the public service
and I want more. And so for me, it's not
about the number of ministers. It's actually about the size
of the ministries that are supporting those ministers and more importantly,
the effectiveness of them. You know, As I've said to
(02:30):
you before, I think we're making some good progress where
we talk the language of outcomes and results and I
meet with the sees of the public service We've obviously
made quite a few changes in personnel and staff and
that's making a big difference when you get the right
leader on the right department. You know, think about what's
happened at Housing New Zealand with Simon Mutam and others.
That's been really positive. So now I think at the
(02:50):
moment interesting intellectual idea. Yep, you look at that down
the road, but for right now, we need delivery out
of the public service.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
MB have nineteen reporting lines ministers. I mean, that's not
is that too many ministers or is that what you're
arguing the department?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I think you know, if you look at MB, there's
been a massive growth in FTE people in that department.
There's been a lot of a lot of growth in
some of the public service. We just got to keep
pruning that back and also getting it very very focused.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I've tried to.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Simplify by having ministers that have clusters of like sort
of activities or portfolios around them to make better sense
and there's more coherency to it. But there's things that
we could continue to do to improve the public service
and the wiring of which units go everywhere. But to
be honest, do I want to spend the next twelve months,
you know, radically restructuring the public service and actually not
delivering improved outcomes. I want the outcomes and the efficiencies, okay,
(03:44):
and the the other thing i'd say, Mike on the
public services, I think the big opportunity is in technology.
I think if we could digitize government, where you as
a customer dealing with the government, and you are a
customer actually could use technology in a way, you would
simplify the back end of it really well. And if
you look at what's happened in places like a Stonia,
in Singapore and the UAE, you know, they know your
(04:04):
MIC and they know that you've got a number of kids,
and you can do an AI sort of natural language
query about what your entitlements might be versus going to
a health website and education website. So we could equit engineers.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
But that's that's my I mean, Singapore also runs the
country with a handful of ministers and the prime ministers
played two million bucks a year, and they're just a
completely different country. They're different mind, it's.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
A different setup. But a Stonier is an MMP type
environment like us. The UA is obviously a different model,
but My point is I want the public service to
think of the public of New Zealand as customers and
they are large service organizations as you would expect outside
of in the private sector.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
As Audrey Young. Do you read her piece in school
with eight? You got an eight from her her annual
marketing and she says this better at managing the government
internally than selling it domestically. Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Oh? Look, I think there's You're constantly reflecting on what
more you can do better, and I'm sure there's better
communication I could could could do and I've got to
keep working at that, and you know I will. But
for me, you know, I came to politics four years
ago because I want the country to realize it's potential.
I think it's a great country and I don't think
we have. I've brought a lot of managerial sort of
you know, approach to what I'm doing. I've got my team,
(05:15):
I think the right ministers on the right assignments with
real clarity and holding them to account and supporting them
when they need that, and obviously running the public service
with quarterly targets and all those kinds of things. So yeah,
that's that I do think, you know, that CEO background
is actually quite useful for the time that we're in.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
The critics are here on yesterday's announcement, defend this. What's
the quickest way to get your military spend into two
percent of GDP? So we can say we're doing go
and weigh two billion dollars on five helicopters. You say, what, now,
that's rubbish.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
What's different on the defense plan is that in the
past you'd have people say we're going to do all
this stuff, but there was no money associated with the investments.
We've got a really clear plan for fifteen years of
the capabilities and the skills we want to build into
the defense force in New Zealand that will then plug
in well with the Australians and other defense partners. And
what's unique here is we've put spending associated with that.
(06:03):
So we will spend twelve billion dollars over the next
four years, and the first budget announcement you'll see coming
up this year, you know that announcement will be there'll
be around two billion dollars for those five marine helicopters.
We need those helicopters. That's a right capability for us
to have when we do emergency management in the Pacific
and back home.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I know you're not going to answer, and I probably
asked you this before, but it came to my mind
yesterday when you announced what your twelve billion is a
stunning amount of money. It's over four years, I understand that,
and nine of it's new and we don't have any
of it. So Nicola, in announcing one point three instead
of two point four as she did last week, must
have found a shitload of dough somewhere in terms of savings,
(06:46):
has she?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Again, I'm going to be the wrong answer that you're
not going to like, but it is. I'm not going
to talk.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
About otherwise it just doesn't add up.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, I can tell you it does add up, and
it's worin our fiscal track, and so I appreciate you know,
people have lots of questions about how we're going to
fund and do that that will be revealed as we
deal with the.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Bub It will all make sense. It will all.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Makes sense, and what you're going to see as a
budget that is actually saying Yep, we know we're in
tough and uncertain times, but we have turned the corner
and actually things are getting better now. We actually want
to make sure that this we are investing for growth,
and that's why we're calling it the growth budget. But
it's also going to be responsible because we have to
pay down that debt over time. We actually have to
get our books in much better shape than what they
(07:24):
have been and so it will be responsible and that's
what you should expect from a government led by Nicola
and myself.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
John Ryan's report into the Have you read it if
you know what I'm talking about, the EWEI relations and
the deals that have been done with Murray over the years.
He's on his way out, isn't he? Isn't he? John
Ryan leaving ordered to general. I'm not sure I thought
it was anyways written, this major report that says basically,
none of the government departments are meeting murray expectations as
(07:53):
a result of the treaty process. In other words, you
see you sign a treaty deal and no one follows up. Yeah. Look,
I think one of them's got a KPI a target.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, so here or not? No, No, there is a
real there is an issue there which I've spoken with
Tama about and we've we've tooked that through. It sees
to you what happens is you do a treaty settlement,
and then there are obligations on the crown and on EWE.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
He says, you're not making any of them.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, I think that we can do. I agree with that.
I don't think we've done a good enough job of
following through on the actions. And I meet with typically
some of those EWEI you know, each year with my
set of ministers, and the key question is, and Tim
is now getting it gripped up, but we do have
a plan to actually say, right, are you following through
on those actions and those commitments that we've made.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I do think we can do a better job on
that is Talma coming back to you in my lifetime.
On the review of the White Tangy Tribune, Yes, he is.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
He's working on that right now.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So you say that every time. I know, I'm sure
he's working on it. When's he going to produce something
that Scott's not sure on the time his last week?
You say, where the hell's the report on the White
Tank in tribunal Talma or words to that effect.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
No, he's very clear about what he's expected to deliver.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
That's one of the things he's working very closely on on.
Rutherford tell me about him. Have you heard this morning story? No?
What's the story? Is he stopped in the middle of
a highway. There was a man who was in some
mental distress. And do you know the story? Now? Okay,
So he's in some mental distress. He's in the middle
of the highway over the weekend. Tom's on his way
home from the market. He stops put his life at
(09:18):
risk to help this guy off the state highway. Is
that Tom? Tom that he unized?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
That is a great young man and he's got a
great future. And he's someone I've spent a lot of
time with and he really cares about people. He's a
great rugby referee, does all sorts of things in his community.
He's just a stand up, classy guy.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Did you go to Adrianaw's farewell? No? I didn't because
there was no boos I was invited. No, no, no,
there was no booze. There was six thousand dollars for
a gift. There were sausage rolls and cookies as they
and water induce. Is that what the public service is
down to now? Is that a public Is that a
public service? Farewell? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Those are decisions for public service commissioner. But I wasn't
invited to the farewell, So.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Does he know us an explanation as to why he quit? Well, look,
I mean do you know why he could?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
No? No, I mean I just know that you know
we he made his own independent decision.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, but did he split it? Don't you want to know?
I mean he held one of the most significant roles
in the public service of this country and took us
through an extraordinary economic journey and they just finished. Yeah. Well,
I mean we came back for some biscuits and some juice.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And then again, well, I mean all I can say
is that you know, we've come in as a new government.
We respect the independence as you would expect me to
say of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, as we should,
but we focused it on a mandate of killing inflation,
which it started to do, which it has done, which
is good. That has led to interest rates coming down.
That's putting money and keep his pockets. So I'm focused
on the future. I can't really deal with the past
(10:51):
and all and what did it? Didn't happen through that?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
You appreciate your time. Christopher likes some for more from
the mic, asking breakfast listen live to news talks it'd
be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on
iHeartRadio
Being a Monday, the Prime ministers in the studio. Good
to see you, and I believe parliament's back this week,
am I.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Clam and you'll be pleased. And three weeks sitting you're
going to deliver a budget over that period of time.
Isn't it great? We're back at work.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm so pleased here at a couple of a couple of things. First,
have you talked well? But yes I did.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I had a great chat with him yesterday morning. The
voice was very hoarse. I think he's probably still in
as pajamas, but he was obviously feeling pretty good after
a pretty emphatic win, as you saw.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Despite the ideological different size, Hume's business as usual and
we get on.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Well, yeah, it's really interesting actually even though we're different
political parties. I guess the center might be slightly different
in both countries. But actually, you know, Key got on
very well with Gillard and actually that some of the
best collaborations at a personal level have been from leaders
in different parties. Alban Easy I knew before I came
to politics, and so yeah, we've got a great friendship.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Actually, did you know Dutton.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I knew him a little bit. I met with him
a couple of times here in New Zealand, and I'd
sort of talked to him a few times when I
was over in Australia as well, So, you know, really
decent individual, I thought. I sent him a text and
spoke to him as well and just said, I thought
you gave a very classy concession speech, you know, pretty
difficult when he got a result like he got, and
wished him well for the future. Soe we appreciated that.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
So what do you make of the world. So much
is being made of you. You go and I know
you commented not yesterday, you go to stability and what
you know? And yet in Britain they didn't. Yeah, they
tipped it on its head. So is the world really
moving to what we know? Or I think the results
I looked out.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I spoke to Mark Carney yesterday as well in Canada,
and I also spoke with Lawrence Wong, the Singapore Prime
Minister as well. Different political system, but actually he lifted
his result in the popular vote, which was good. And
then obviously Anthony in Australia. And I think those three elections,
to say to you, people are acknowledging and I see it.
People are anxious about what's going on in the world
at the moment. We've also got coming through difficult times
(01:45):
with inflation and all of that stuff, and they want
strong economic management at uncertain times, you know, And that's
what you know, our government's been pretty relentlessly focused on
from day one because that's the thing that matters most
to New Islanders. And when you start talk about other
stuff other than that, that's not what they're interested in,
because they want you there to fix the problems that
they're experiencing.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
David Tamore says we've got too many ministers.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Is he correct, Well, nah, I think I think actually
it's about delivery of that public service, and so I'm
very comfortable with what the setup is, but I'm uncomfortable
with the performance we're getting out of the public service
and I want more. And so for me, it's not
about the number of ministers. It's actually about the size
of the ministries that are supporting those ministers and more importantly,
the effectiveness of them. You know, As I've said to
(02:30):
you before, I think we're making some good progress where
we talk the language of outcomes and results and I
meet with the sees of the public service We've obviously
made quite a few changes in personnel and staff and
that's making a big difference when you get the right
leader on the right department. You know, think about what's
happened at Housing New Zealand with Simon Mutam and others.
That's been really positive. So now I think at the
(02:50):
moment interesting intellectual idea. Yep, you look at that down
the road, but for right now, we need delivery out
of the public service.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
MB have nineteen reporting lines ministers. I mean, that's not
is that too many ministers or is that what you're
arguing the department?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I think you know, if you look at MB, there's
been a massive growth in FTE people in that department.
There's been a lot of a lot of growth in
some of the public service. We just got to keep
pruning that back and also getting it very very focused.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I've tried to.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Simplify by having ministers that have clusters of like sort
of activities or portfolios around them to make better sense
and there's more coherency to it. But there's things that
we could continue to do to improve the public service
and the wiring of which units go everywhere. But to
be honest, do I want to spend the next twelve months,
you know, radically restructuring the public service and actually not
delivering improved outcomes. I want the outcomes and the efficiencies, okay,
(03:44):
and the the other thing i'd say, Mike on the
public services, I think the big opportunity is in technology.
I think if we could digitize government, where you as
a customer dealing with the government, and you are a
customer actually could use technology in a way, you would
simplify the back end of it really well. And if
you look at what's happened in places like a Stonia,
in Singapore and the UAE, you know, they know your
(04:04):
MIC and they know that you've got a number of kids,
and you can do an AI sort of natural language
query about what your entitlements might be versus going to
a health website and education website. So we could equit engineers.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
But that's that's my I mean, Singapore also runs the
country with a handful of ministers and the prime ministers
played two million bucks a year, and they're just a
completely different country. They're different mind, it's.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
A different setup. But a Stonier is an MMP type
environment like us. The UA is obviously a different model,
but My point is I want the public service to
think of the public of New Zealand as customers and
they are large service organizations as you would expect outside
of in the private sector.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
As Audrey Young. Do you read her piece in school
with eight? You got an eight from her her annual
marketing and she says this better at managing the government
internally than selling it domestically. Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Oh? Look, I think there's You're constantly reflecting on what
more you can do better, and I'm sure there's better
communication I could could could do and I've got to
keep working at that, and you know I will. But
for me, you know, I came to politics four years
ago because I want the country to realize it's potential.
I think it's a great country and I don't think
we have. I've brought a lot of managerial sort of
you know, approach to what I'm doing. I've got my team,
(05:15):
I think the right ministers on the right assignments with
real clarity and holding them to account and supporting them
when they need that, and obviously running the public service
with quarterly targets and all those kinds of things. So yeah,
that's that I do think, you know, that CEO background
is actually quite useful for the time that we're in.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
The critics are here on yesterday's announcement, defend this. What's
the quickest way to get your military spend into two
percent of GDP? So we can say we're doing go
and weigh two billion dollars on five helicopters. You say, what, now,
that's rubbish.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
What's different on the defense plan is that in the
past you'd have people say we're going to do all
this stuff, but there was no money associated with the investments.
We've got a really clear plan for fifteen years of
the capabilities and the skills we want to build into
the defense force in New Zealand that will then plug
in well with the Australians and other defense partners. And
what's unique here is we've put spending associated with that.
(06:03):
So we will spend twelve billion dollars over the next
four years, and the first budget announcement you'll see coming
up this year, you know that announcement will be there'll
be around two billion dollars for those five marine helicopters.
We need those helicopters. That's a right capability for us
to have when we do emergency management in the Pacific
and back home.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I know you're not going to answer, and I probably
asked you this before, but it came to my mind
yesterday when you announced what your twelve billion is a
stunning amount of money. It's over four years, I understand that,
and nine of it's new and we don't have any
of it. So Nicola, in announcing one point three instead
of two point four as she did last week, must
have found a shitload of dough somewhere in terms of savings,
(06:46):
has she?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Again, I'm going to be the wrong answer that you're
not going to like, but it is. I'm not going
to talk.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
About otherwise it just doesn't add up.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, I can tell you it does add up, and
it's worin our fiscal track, and so I appreciate you know,
people have lots of questions about how we're going to
fund and do that that will be revealed as we
deal with the.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Bub It will all make sense. It will all.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Makes sense, and what you're going to see as a
budget that is actually saying Yep, we know we're in
tough and uncertain times, but we have turned the corner
and actually things are getting better now. We actually want
to make sure that this we are investing for growth,
and that's why we're calling it the growth budget. But
it's also going to be responsible because we have to
pay down that debt over time. We actually have to
get our books in much better shape than what they
(07:24):
have been and so it will be responsible and that's
what you should expect from a government led by Nicola
and myself.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
John Ryan's report into the Have you read it if
you know what I'm talking about, the EWEI relations and
the deals that have been done with Murray over the years.
He's on his way out, isn't he? Isn't he? John
Ryan leaving ordered to general. I'm not sure I thought
it was anyways written, this major report that says basically,
none of the government departments are meeting murray expectations as
(07:53):
a result of the treaty process. In other words, you
see you sign a treaty deal and no one follows up. Yeah. Look,
I think one of them's got a KPI a target.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, so here or not? No, No, there is a
real there is an issue there which I've spoken with
Tama about and we've we've tooked that through. It sees
to you what happens is you do a treaty settlement,
and then there are obligations on the crown and on EWE.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
He says, you're not making any of them.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, I think that we can do. I agree with that.
I don't think we've done a good enough job of
following through on the actions. And I meet with typically
some of those EWEI you know, each year with my
set of ministers, and the key question is, and Tim
is now getting it gripped up, but we do have
a plan to actually say, right, are you following through
on those actions and those commitments that we've made.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I do think we can do a better job on
that is Talma coming back to you in my lifetime.
On the review of the White Tangy Tribune, Yes, he is.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
He's working on that right now.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So you say that every time. I know, I'm sure
he's working on it. When's he going to produce something
that Scott's not sure on the time his last week?
You say, where the hell's the report on the White
Tank in tribunal Talma or words to that effect.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
No, he's very clear about what he's expected to deliver.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
That's one of the things he's working very closely on on.
Rutherford tell me about him. Have you heard this morning story? No?
What's the story? Is he stopped in the middle of
a highway. There was a man who was in some
mental distress. And do you know the story? Now? Okay,
So he's in some mental distress. He's in the middle
of the highway over the weekend. Tom's on his way
home from the market. He stops put his life at
(09:18):
risk to help this guy off the state highway. Is
that Tom? Tom that he unized?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
That is a great young man and he's got a
great future. And he's someone I've spent a lot of
time with and he really cares about people. He's a
great rugby referee, does all sorts of things in his community.
He's just a stand up, classy guy.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Did you go to Adrianaw's farewell? No? I didn't because
there was no boos I was invited. No, no, no,
there was no booze. There was six thousand dollars for
a gift. There were sausage rolls and cookies as they
and water induce. Is that what the public service is
down to now? Is that a public Is that a
public service? Farewell? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Those are decisions for public service commissioner. But I wasn't
invited to the farewell, So.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Does he know us an explanation as to why he quit? Well, look,
I mean do you know why he could?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
No? No, I mean I just know that you know
we he made his own independent decision.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, but did he split it? Don't you want to know?
I mean he held one of the most significant roles
in the public service of this country and took us
through an extraordinary economic journey and they just finished. Yeah. Well,
I mean we came back for some biscuits and some juice.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And then again, well, I mean all I can say
is that you know, we've come in as a new government.
We respect the independence as you would expect me to
say of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, as we should,
but we focused it on a mandate of killing inflation,
which it started to do, which it has done, which
is good. That has led to interest rates coming down.
That's putting money and keep his pockets. So I'm focused
on the future. I can't really deal with the past
(10:51):
and all and what did it? Didn't happen through that?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
You appreciate your time. Christopher likes some for more from
the mic, asking breakfast listen live to news talks it'd
be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on
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