August 11, 2024 • 11 mins
Andrew Saville and Guy Heveldt joined Mike Hosking to discuss their highlights of the Paris Olympics — including Hamish Kerr, Lydia Ko, Dame Lisa Carrington and Ellesse Andrews all getting the gold — and the All Blacks’ 38-30 loss to Argentina in Wellington.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Andrew Sevell and Guy have Elter with his fellas.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Sorry sorry, no, no, no, it's just just just just
naming and naming a monument in Paris doesn't make it
as something. Or rather anyway, listen the guy, I'm going
to play a game. Your gold medal of the Olympics.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Is what.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
My gold medal of the Olympics I think is Hamish
cur That was such a special special moment to see that.
I wasn't there alive. It was actually a couple of
us are walking home from having dinner and I managed
to get sky going and we were watching it and
holding the reaction just to see him jump over there
(00:39):
and the ceiling for him was just so epic. In
ten years time, I think I will be the thing
that old treasure the most will be getting to see
what Dame Lisa Carrington has done, because you know that
to achieve what she has done is just simply outstanding.
But in terms of one moment, Hamish Curves high jump
win was just out of us where it was incredible.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
What about you, Andrew.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Pretty close to me, Mike, I think Hamish Kerr because
the high jumps, the high jump, you know it is
I think it's still one of the field glamor events globally.
But also Lisa Carrington, especially in that K one boat
under extreme pressure. She'd had a huge few days already,
and then she went out and smoked the competition absolutely again.
(01:22):
A little bit behind in that race, wasn't she She
had to really dig it in, but just that laser
focus of hers, that killer instinct. We haven't seen a
lot of athletes like this out of New Zealand in
our history, and we won't see another Lisa Caring and
that's for sure for a very long time, if at all.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
No, that is true, and I like that you've done
that because it was My great fear is that because
of who she is and because of what she's done,
it's kind of yeah, No, she'll win a couple, so
that's good. So who else is going to win? And
you don't give her the credit that she designed?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, the credit shouldn't be taken away from her, her
coaching team and her team as a whole, just because
she's favorite. She still had to go out there and
perform against the world's best, very very strong fields, and
I thought she was amazing. Once again, I wouldn't be surprised.
Guy might be able to call me more on this,
but I wouldn't be surprised if she's in LA in
four years.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, I was a little bit surprised to hear what
she said to us yesterday in terms of how enticing
it is to go again. I kind of got the
feeling that this would be it and she would kind
of just go and live more of a normal life,
I suppose. But the way that she was speaking yesterday,
it has got me thinking that maybe she will go again.
(02:35):
And the reason why I say that is because of
the way she won. And her coach, Gordon Walker said
it to me yesterday that she is the best athlete
he has ever seen in terms of her career. This
is the best she has ever been. And if you
can quite quantify that, like think of what she has
done in her career. She is thirty five years old
and she is the best she's ever been four years time.
(02:58):
He kind of said, if she improved who's two little
aspects that she can, then she'll get better and better.
And that's you know, it's a simple way of looking
at it, but it's very true, and she'll become a
better athlete. And imagine what she can do if she
goes again, it would be quite incredible. It now would
not surprise me, But I don't know. I don't know
what she would do.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I don't think you want to forget Lese Andrews either,
who I know. I don't think was a shock, but
she was there or thereabouts. But what she did turned
out to be better than I think most people actually expecting.
She's clearly, clearly world classed.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
And again make in a sport that's that's.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Right right up there.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
As far as the tensions concerned, tracks like being huge
around the world, especially Europe, and the way she blew
her opposition apart, especially in that sprint final last night.
Just just just amazing and still very young, a lot
of time left on the clock, a lot of time
left in that body. Yeah, just outstanding, outstanding. And when
you think about that, when you think about how much
(03:58):
funding these European teams, Great Britain, other European teams especially
put into their cycling programs, we shouldn't be anywhere near them.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
No, No, we got young magic. You look at cycling, rowing,
yachting didn't deliver this time round in the equestrian seems
to have gone miss, But the cycling and the rowing,
there's a consistency and there's always somewhere there and thereabouts.
Isn't there guy in the field, whether it's a shot
putter or a discus thrower or in this case a hijumper.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, absolutely, I mean it's always going to be cycling,
rowing and probably canoes sprint at the moment that are
going to be New Zealand sports where they do very well.
In saying that, I think this cycling campaign has probably
maybe exceeded expectations. Certainly the women anyway, they've done exceptionally well.
Just on that Elise Andrews when I was very lucky
enough to be standing next to Gordon Walker at New
(04:47):
Zealand House earlier today our time when she won that sprint,
and he knows a lot about winning gold medals, obviously,
but he also knows a bit about cycling, and he
was blown away at how she won the race. He
could not believe how she won it so easily and
how impressive she was. And if he is saying that,
that kind of gives you some context into how impressive
(05:10):
that performance.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Was, good insight. Andrew gets a little uncomfortable here at
this particular point of the program. Listen to this. I
want to take you back to this time last week.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I think the All Black should win both some silly comfortably,
but I think Argentina's going off the ball the last
year or two anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Argentina's gotten off the boil the last year or two. Then,
because I hold you in such esteem, yeah, I then
get Scott Barrett on the program on Friday and I
do this. Do you know the name Andrew sebil I do?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
He says the argies aren't what they used to be. There,
no big deal, what do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Well, he's probably setting us up to four into a
mental trap to make it a decent thing gong in Wellington,
So we're certainly not reading into that. I think they've
tipped us up and christ Church and in Australia a
couple of years ago, so iftar on they can really challenger.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So what happened there?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Andrews you that's why he's that's why he's your Black captain.
I was trying to key up the All Blacks, trying
to get them, really key them up for the big game, mate.
I mean to be fair, Well, we all say things
we regret.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Last week don't we.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I feel the same to be Frank as I did
last week. I'm really not feeling Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
That was about the Olympics. Yeah, I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Feeling the Olympics.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Although what's the old saying Mike carpe dm I call
him as I see him, mate.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
How do we explain it? And furthermore, go on and
answer me this question when I go on.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
You'd like to give Glenn a pat on the back
to taking that huge gap out of Scott Barrett's interview
where he paused when you said, do you know Andrew Savile?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
We tidied that up just a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Trucks. Look. Yes, I thought midway through that second half
the All Blacks would pull away and if they had
not had that tried this out, I think that would
have happened. But they didn't go and play some era ridden,
mistake ridden feeble football in the last quarter. I didn't
bank on Matt.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Right, No, so was that you defend Sandra?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
And yes the Pos played well. Yes they slowed the
game down. There are a lot of a lot of
Northern Hemisphere players and the team they'll slowed the game
down like England did, like South Africa will frustrating for
the All Blacks, but they've got to deal with that.
I Mike, from the looks of things on the outside,
watching that game, I think it looks like there's a
disconnect between what the coaches are trying to play and
(07:27):
what the players are playing. And I also think, again, yes,
I'm missing some big, big names who retired last year
like white Lock, Metallic, Aaron Smith, et cetera, et cetera.
But there are players in that team with a lot
of experience I think, who need to stand up. I
think that just appears also to be a disconnect between
some of the players in that team. That's what that's
(07:48):
that's the feeling I get watching a performance like that.
The big way for me, did you see South Africa
beat the Wallabies?
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Kill them?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Gee whiz?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
And then the ball around they're playing in pace, they're
playing some attacking football, which we haven't seen a lot
from South African teams. That is a big, big challenge
for the you All Blacks in a few weeks over there.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
It is Guy sum it up for me as a
games worth it good, sen River, far too much rain,
couple of scandals overall good or.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Not exceptional games. Mike. It's been really just an outstanding
time to be here. They've put on a I've got
Chris Bishop looking at me at the moment with a
big smile. He's thinking he's enjoyed it. They've had. It's
been terrific. They've run it exceptionally well. There are a
couple of things I'll be honest that I came over
here maybe a little bit worried about in terms of
security and that sort of thing. I've never had one
(08:40):
feeling of being uncomfortable the whole time I've been here.
The transport's been great, the venues have been fantastic, the
athletes have been great to deal with. There have obviously
been good results. It's been an awesome games, and you know,
you just feel so privileged to have been at these things.
I know both of you have probably been able to
be to adalm before. I know you both haven't. You
(09:02):
get to the end of it and you're bloody tired,
but you look back and you just appreciate so much
for having seen athletes at the peak of their game.
You know, it was two weeks ago, it feels like
a lifetime ago. I got to watch Rafael and Nadal
and Novak Djokovic play on center court at Roland Garross,
and that will be something that I remember for a
long time. And that just feels like so long ago
because there have been so many other awesome moments that
I've been lucky to see.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
So you do realize, you do realize it's the pinnacle
when you're there. It's quite confronting. It's the pinnacle. And
these athletes have worked extremely hard and just the things
they do are just absolutely mind blowing. When you see
it in the fleet.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Out, I couldn't agree more. Is it the standard this time? Guy?
Do you think it's you finish the games, you take
a couple of weeks off to just wander leisurely through
Europe before you leave your employer and then bugger off
to somebody else. Is that how that's unfolding?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
That's the textbook, isn't it? That's what I was reading
the playbook. I leave on Tuesday night, back to work
on the Monday, I think, and then Friday's my last
What a dream ending? What a dream?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Leave? Before they kick you out there with the with
the A list is tonight, Chris Bishop Bay, are you
and Chris Heating back? To Jamaica House. You're off to
Jamaica House tonight again.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I should be at Jamacca House again.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
You got the stories you can tell us there. But
we got some gossip from guys, some adventures in Paris
that we can share with the group here.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
No, I wouldn't do that to them.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Okay, just tell me off here and I'll see whether
we can't just take you anyway you travel. So what
I got there, guy, was you're leaving Tuesday, but you're
back at work on Monday, when really it's just twenty
four hours. So you leave Tuesday, you get back Wednesday.
See I've got Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday office. That
how it works.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I think I get back Thursday, leave Tuesday night, get
back Thursday morning, New Zealand time. And then so the
next week I worked that week and then I'm done
the whole week. Good one, all right?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Well, slipping a bit of an appearance for us next week.
That to just be grateful and don't about your reputation
too badly. I think I think I patched it up
with Scott before he left, So I think we're good.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
There, mate.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Hey, can I call it now? I think Neil Blacks
will win an even part.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
There you go, Oh, Here we go, Oh he drew
civil Guy. Held for more from the Mic Asking Breakfast.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Listen live to news talks.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
Andrew Sevell and Guy have Elter with his fellas.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Sorry sorry, no, no, no, it's just just just just
naming and naming a monument in Paris doesn't make it
as something. Or rather anyway, listen the guy, I'm going
to play a game. Your gold medal of the Olympics.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Is what.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
My gold medal of the Olympics I think is Hamish
cur That was such a special special moment to see that.
I wasn't there alive. It was actually a couple of
us are walking home from having dinner and I managed
to get sky going and we were watching it and
holding the reaction just to see him jump over there
(00:39):
and the ceiling for him was just so epic. In
ten years time, I think I will be the thing
that old treasure the most will be getting to see
what Dame Lisa Carrington has done, because you know that
to achieve what she has done is just simply outstanding.
But in terms of one moment, Hamish Curves high jump
win was just out of us where it was incredible.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
What about you, Andrew.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Pretty close to me, Mike, I think Hamish Kerr because
the high jumps, the high jump, you know it is
I think it's still one of the field glamor events globally.
But also Lisa Carrington, especially in that K one boat
under extreme pressure. She'd had a huge few days already,
and then she went out and smoked the competition absolutely again.
(01:22):
A little bit behind in that race, wasn't she She
had to really dig it in, but just that laser
focus of hers, that killer instinct. We haven't seen a
lot of athletes like this out of New Zealand in
our history, and we won't see another Lisa Caring and
that's for sure for a very long time, if at all.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
No, that is true, and I like that you've done
that because it was My great fear is that because
of who she is and because of what she's done,
it's kind of yeah, No, she'll win a couple, so
that's good. So who else is going to win? And
you don't give her the credit that she designed?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, the credit shouldn't be taken away from her, her
coaching team and her team as a whole, just because
she's favorite. She still had to go out there and
perform against the world's best, very very strong fields, and
I thought she was amazing. Once again, I wouldn't be surprised.
Guy might be able to call me more on this,
but I wouldn't be surprised if she's in LA in
four years.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, I was a little bit surprised to hear what
she said to us yesterday in terms of how enticing
it is to go again. I kind of got the
feeling that this would be it and she would kind
of just go and live more of a normal life,
I suppose. But the way that she was speaking yesterday,
it has got me thinking that maybe she will go again.
(02:35):
And the reason why I say that is because of
the way she won. And her coach, Gordon Walker said
it to me yesterday that she is the best athlete
he has ever seen in terms of her career. This
is the best she has ever been. And if you
can quite quantify that, like think of what she has
done in her career. She is thirty five years old
and she is the best she's ever been four years time.
(02:58):
He kind of said, if she improved who's two little
aspects that she can, then she'll get better and better.
And that's you know, it's a simple way of looking
at it, but it's very true, and she'll become a
better athlete. And imagine what she can do if she
goes again, it would be quite incredible. It now would
not surprise me, But I don't know. I don't know
what she would do.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I don't think you want to forget Lese Andrews either,
who I know. I don't think was a shock, but
she was there or thereabouts. But what she did turned
out to be better than I think most people actually expecting.
She's clearly, clearly world classed.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
And again make in a sport that's that's.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Right right up there.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
As far as the tensions concerned, tracks like being huge
around the world, especially Europe, and the way she blew
her opposition apart, especially in that sprint final last night.
Just just just amazing and still very young, a lot
of time left on the clock, a lot of time
left in that body. Yeah, just outstanding, outstanding. And when
you think about that, when you think about how much
(03:58):
funding these European teams, Great Britain, other European teams especially
put into their cycling programs, we shouldn't be anywhere near them.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
No, No, we got young magic. You look at cycling, rowing,
yachting didn't deliver this time round in the equestrian seems
to have gone miss, But the cycling and the rowing,
there's a consistency and there's always somewhere there and thereabouts.
Isn't there guy in the field, whether it's a shot
putter or a discus thrower or in this case a hijumper.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, absolutely, I mean it's always going to be cycling,
rowing and probably canoes sprint at the moment that are
going to be New Zealand sports where they do very well.
In saying that, I think this cycling campaign has probably
maybe exceeded expectations. Certainly the women anyway, they've done exceptionally well.
Just on that Elise Andrews when I was very lucky
enough to be standing next to Gordon Walker at New
(04:47):
Zealand House earlier today our time when she won that sprint,
and he knows a lot about winning gold medals, obviously,
but he also knows a bit about cycling, and he
was blown away at how she won the race. He
could not believe how she won it so easily and
how impressive she was. And if he is saying that,
that kind of gives you some context into how impressive
(05:10):
that performance.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Was, good insight. Andrew gets a little uncomfortable here at
this particular point of the program. Listen to this. I
want to take you back to this time last week.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I think the All Black should win both some silly comfortably,
but I think Argentina's going off the ball the last
year or two anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Argentina's gotten off the boil the last year or two. Then,
because I hold you in such esteem, yeah, I then
get Scott Barrett on the program on Friday and I
do this. Do you know the name Andrew sebil I do?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
He says the argies aren't what they used to be. There,
no big deal, what do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Well, he's probably setting us up to four into a
mental trap to make it a decent thing gong in Wellington,
So we're certainly not reading into that. I think they've
tipped us up and christ Church and in Australia a
couple of years ago, so iftar on they can really challenger.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So what happened there?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Andrews you that's why he's that's why he's your Black captain.
I was trying to key up the All Blacks, trying
to get them, really key them up for the big game, mate.
I mean to be fair, Well, we all say things
we regret.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Last week don't we.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I feel the same to be Frank as I did
last week. I'm really not feeling Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
That was about the Olympics. Yeah, I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Feeling the Olympics.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Although what's the old saying Mike carpe dm I call
him as I see him, mate.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
How do we explain it? And furthermore, go on and
answer me this question when I go on.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
You'd like to give Glenn a pat on the back
to taking that huge gap out of Scott Barrett's interview
where he paused when you said, do you know Andrew Savile?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
We tidied that up just a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Trucks. Look. Yes, I thought midway through that second half
the All Blacks would pull away and if they had
not had that tried this out, I think that would
have happened. But they didn't go and play some era ridden,
mistake ridden feeble football in the last quarter. I didn't
bank on Matt.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Right, No, so was that you defend Sandra?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
And yes the Pos played well. Yes they slowed the
game down. There are a lot of a lot of
Northern Hemisphere players and the team they'll slowed the game
down like England did, like South Africa will frustrating for
the All Blacks, but they've got to deal with that.
I Mike, from the looks of things on the outside,
watching that game, I think it looks like there's a
disconnect between what the coaches are trying to play and
(07:27):
what the players are playing. And I also think, again, yes,
I'm missing some big, big names who retired last year
like white Lock, Metallic, Aaron Smith, et cetera, et cetera.
But there are players in that team with a lot
of experience I think, who need to stand up. I
think that just appears also to be a disconnect between
some of the players in that team. That's what that's
(07:48):
that's the feeling I get watching a performance like that.
The big way for me, did you see South Africa
beat the Wallabies?
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Kill them?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Gee whiz?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
And then the ball around they're playing in pace, they're
playing some attacking football, which we haven't seen a lot
from South African teams. That is a big, big challenge
for the you All Blacks in a few weeks over there.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
It is Guy sum it up for me as a
games worth it good, sen River, far too much rain,
couple of scandals overall good or.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Not exceptional games. Mike. It's been really just an outstanding
time to be here. They've put on a I've got
Chris Bishop looking at me at the moment with a
big smile. He's thinking he's enjoyed it. They've had. It's
been terrific. They've run it exceptionally well. There are a
couple of things I'll be honest that I came over
here maybe a little bit worried about in terms of
security and that sort of thing. I've never had one
(08:40):
feeling of being uncomfortable the whole time I've been here.
The transport's been great, the venues have been fantastic, the
athletes have been great to deal with. There have obviously
been good results. It's been an awesome games, and you know,
you just feel so privileged to have been at these things.
I know both of you have probably been able to
be to adalm before. I know you both haven't. You
(09:02):
get to the end of it and you're bloody tired,
but you look back and you just appreciate so much
for having seen athletes at the peak of their game.
You know, it was two weeks ago, it feels like
a lifetime ago. I got to watch Rafael and Nadal
and Novak Djokovic play on center court at Roland Garross,
and that will be something that I remember for a
long time. And that just feels like so long ago
because there have been so many other awesome moments that
I've been lucky to see.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
So you do realize, you do realize it's the pinnacle
when you're there. It's quite confronting. It's the pinnacle. And
these athletes have worked extremely hard and just the things
they do are just absolutely mind blowing. When you see
it in the fleet.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Out, I couldn't agree more. Is it the standard this time? Guy?
Do you think it's you finish the games, you take
a couple of weeks off to just wander leisurely through
Europe before you leave your employer and then bugger off
to somebody else. Is that how that's unfolding?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
That's the textbook, isn't it? That's what I was reading
the playbook. I leave on Tuesday night, back to work
on the Monday, I think, and then Friday's my last
What a dream ending? What a dream?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Leave? Before they kick you out there with the with
the A list is tonight, Chris Bishop Bay, are you
and Chris Heating back? To Jamaica House. You're off to
Jamaica House tonight again.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I should be at Jamacca House again.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
You got the stories you can tell us there. But
we got some gossip from guys, some adventures in Paris
that we can share with the group here.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
No, I wouldn't do that to them.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Okay, just tell me off here and I'll see whether
we can't just take you anyway you travel. So what
I got there, guy, was you're leaving Tuesday, but you're
back at work on Monday, when really it's just twenty
four hours. So you leave Tuesday, you get back Wednesday.
See I've got Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday office. That
how it works.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I think I get back Thursday, leave Tuesday night, get
back Thursday morning, New Zealand time. And then so the
next week I worked that week and then I'm done
the whole week. Good one, all right?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Well, slipping a bit of an appearance for us next week.
That to just be grateful and don't about your reputation
too badly. I think I think I patched it up
with Scott before he left, So I think we're good.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
There, mate.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Hey, can I call it now? I think Neil Blacks
will win an even part.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
There you go, Oh, Here we go, Oh he drew
civil Guy. Held for more from the Mic Asking Breakfast.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Listen live to news talks.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com