The head of Phase Two of New Zealand's Covid Inquiry says turnover is 'perfectly natural' as it loses two of its high-ranking officials.
Executive Director Andrew Sweet is stepping down just months before the second phase is due to end in February.
His predecessor, Helen Potiki, similarly lasted five months before walking away.
Inquiry Chair Grant Illingworth KC told Mike Hosking nobody has been dissatisfied with their experience in the inquiry.
He says two people have been offered very good jobs and are leaving for that reason.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Right to the COVID inquiries who mentioned yesterday Britain's been
completed a or Britain's COVID Inquiry has been completing the
findings of damming and one of the major suggestions was
lockdowns may not have been needed, that the government had
their act together. Problem with ours is we keep getting resignations,
latest being Executive director Andrew Sweet Grant Illingworth k C
is the chair of the inquiry and is with us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Good morning, it's good morning, Marke.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Do you have too many resignations?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
No, we've got a situation where we have a delivery
deadline of the twenty sixth of February. We've got some
very very talented people who've been with us most of
the time. They've got to find employment for when we
finish our job. And it's perfectly natural that we've got
(00:47):
a bit of turnover at the moment.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Are they turning over or leaving because they haven't enjoyed
the experience? All they have problems with the experience?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, there's nobody in the past several months who has
expressed any view that they are leaving it because they
haven't enjoyed the experience.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Why did Internal Affairs suggest that there's been some staff
problems and some problems have been raised with them.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Look, in every organization you get people bumping up against
each other. We have a new team. Trying to get
everyone into their right lanes is not always easy, but
we have had the incredible fortune of having people who
(01:37):
are just so skilled in their areas that it's very,
very impressive, and overall the staffing issue has not been
a big issue at all.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Helen Potarchy left after five months.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Why look, Helenson titled at her privacy. I've had discussion
with her and have agreed not to comment on her decision.
You're perfectly welcome to contact if you wish.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
It just goes sort of against what you're saying people.
If she'd say, look, I'm leaving. I'd love to stay,
but I'm leaving because I've got to go find other
work after this, you know, it wouldn't be. It just
seems to me that we've got issues here, and all
I'm interested in is why have we got issues? And
are the issues are holding up the overall inquiry.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Well, I'm looking about the current situation. The current situation
is that a couple of people have been offered very
good jobs and they're leaving for that reason. There is
no big drama within the organization and indeed we are
well on top of the task that we've been given
(02:45):
to do. We expect to be able to finish the
job on time within budget, which is possibly going to
be a record for a Royal Commission of Inquiry in
New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Why did Andrew Sweet leave?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Look, you can talk to Andrew. He's made a public
statement about what he wants to do. Again, it's not
my business to spected for him. He is a delightful character.
He came in at a time when things were under
a bit of pressure. He managed to get things on
(03:21):
track in a way which was incredibly impressive. And we
have you know, he's been a person of great value
and he's moved on to another opportunity.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
See how long is this whole process in total grant
from the day you guys started to the day you finished.
Let's say you finishing foebeurreyd next year. How long is
this whole project?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Well, I was appointed as a commissioner in phase one
at the very end, so I'm in a slightly different position.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
And I understand that. But how long's faced it? How
Long's COVID inquiry two point zero. How long does it last?
Beginning to end?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
From the beginning is to none November last year, end
is twenty sixth February, So this coming year a.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Year in a bit.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, that's a lot of resignations for if you're taking
on a job that's only lasting a year, that's a
lot of resignations within a twelve month period, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
No, it's not when you consider the people involved, the opportunities,
so they have, the contributions they make. It's a lot
different from the inside down from the outside.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Well, that's why we've got you on. I'm trying to
look at it from the inside. Something's going on. And
if you ring me up grant and go make twelve
month job, come and help us sort COVID. I'm in.
I'm all in, and I'm in for the twelve months
because I've made a commitment. Not so we'll see how
we go, and I might quite after five months doesn't
ring true to me?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, it matters not whether it rings true to you.
It rings true to me. I'd been there all the
time and we haven't had a situation where things where
the wheels are falling off quite the opposite. It's started
off with some meeting this in terms of where we
were going in our timeline, because frankly we had to
(05:10):
learn as we went. But things came right very early
in this year and have gone well ever since. It's
a high pressure job because we're doing a massive inquiry
within a very short space of time. When you compare
what we're doing to what other inquiries that have done overseas,
(05:34):
I mean, if you ever look, if you ever look
at the UK Inquiry, we are very small.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Indeed, does it I take it you've looked at the
UK Inquiry? Could you conclude something similar to what they've concluded,
and that is that lockdowns weren't needed.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
They haven't concluded that.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
What I read over the weekend, they seem to conclude
that very clearly.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Well, you've concluded you've read it wrong. The situation there
is Baron Baroness Halett has said that they should have
acted more urgently at the beginning, much more urgently at
the beginning. It took it very casually and they should
have established things like masks and spacing and all the
(06:18):
rest of it. And if they had done that, it
might possibly have.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Eliminated name not needed.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
It might possibly have done that. I personally find that
difficult to accept.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
But when you compare, when you compare that to what
happened in New Zealand, they had twenty six thousand deaths
between March and April.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
In early twenty twenty, we had one, and over the
whole of twenty twenty our total deaths attributed to COVID
were twenty five. So you're just not talking any You're
not making a sensible comparison if you try to compare
(07:05):
what happened here with what happened there.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Even though we locked down at exactly the same day,
in fact, almost to the day, we locked down at
the same time.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
We did, but we did so in different circumstances and
for different reasons. And by the way, i'm talking out
a turn because Phase two is not reconsidering twenty twenty.
We've got a different focus, which is twenty twenty one,
when our government faced some very difficult decisions as Delta arrived,
(07:37):
Auckland lockdown. How long do you keep the lockdown going
for all of these things matters that we've looked at
with in intense detail over the past few months, and
or will be revealed when our our report comes out
the beginning of next year.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And I appreciate your time, Grant Hillingworth, KC. What do
you make of that? For more from the mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to News Talks at B from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Right to the COVID inquiries who mentioned yesterday Britain's been
completed a or Britain's COVID Inquiry has been completing the
findings of damming and one of the major suggestions was
lockdowns may not have been needed, that the government had
their act together. Problem with ours is we keep getting resignations,
latest being Executive director Andrew Sweet Grant Illingworth k C
is the chair of the inquiry and is with us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Good morning, it's good morning, Marke.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Do you have too many resignations?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
No, we've got a situation where we have a delivery
deadline of the twenty sixth of February. We've got some
very very talented people who've been with us most of
the time. They've got to find employment for when we
finish our job. And it's perfectly natural that we've got
(00:47):
a bit of turnover at the moment.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Are they turning over or leaving because they haven't enjoyed
the experience? All they have problems with the experience?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, there's nobody in the past several months who has
expressed any view that they are leaving it because they
haven't enjoyed the experience.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Why did Internal Affairs suggest that there's been some staff
problems and some problems have been raised with them.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Look, in every organization you get people bumping up against
each other. We have a new team. Trying to get
everyone into their right lanes is not always easy, but
we have had the incredible fortune of having people who
(01:37):
are just so skilled in their areas that it's very,
very impressive, and overall the staffing issue has not been
a big issue at all.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Helen Potarchy left after five months.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Why look, Helenson titled at her privacy. I've had discussion
with her and have agreed not to comment on her decision.
You're perfectly welcome to contact if you wish.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
It just goes sort of against what you're saying people.
If she'd say, look, I'm leaving. I'd love to stay,
but I'm leaving because I've got to go find other
work after this, you know, it wouldn't be. It just
seems to me that we've got issues here, and all
I'm interested in is why have we got issues? And
are the issues are holding up the overall inquiry.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Well, I'm looking about the current situation. The current situation
is that a couple of people have been offered very
good jobs and they're leaving for that reason. There is
no big drama within the organization and indeed we are
well on top of the task that we've been given
(02:45):
to do. We expect to be able to finish the
job on time within budget, which is possibly going to
be a record for a Royal Commission of Inquiry in
New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Why did Andrew Sweet leave?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Look, you can talk to Andrew. He's made a public
statement about what he wants to do. Again, it's not
my business to spected for him. He is a delightful character.
He came in at a time when things were under
a bit of pressure. He managed to get things on
(03:21):
track in a way which was incredibly impressive. And we
have you know, he's been a person of great value
and he's moved on to another opportunity.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
See how long is this whole process in total grant
from the day you guys started to the day you finished.
Let's say you finishing foebeurreyd next year. How long is
this whole project?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Well, I was appointed as a commissioner in phase one
at the very end, so I'm in a slightly different position.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
And I understand that. But how long's faced it? How
Long's COVID inquiry two point zero. How long does it last?
Beginning to end?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
From the beginning is to none November last year, end
is twenty sixth February, So this coming year a.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Year in a bit.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, that's a lot of resignations for if you're taking
on a job that's only lasting a year, that's a
lot of resignations within a twelve month period, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
No, it's not when you consider the people involved, the opportunities,
so they have, the contributions they make. It's a lot
different from the inside down from the outside.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Well, that's why we've got you on. I'm trying to
look at it from the inside. Something's going on. And
if you ring me up grant and go make twelve
month job, come and help us sort COVID. I'm in.
I'm all in, and I'm in for the twelve months
because I've made a commitment. Not so we'll see how
we go, and I might quite after five months doesn't
ring true to me?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, it matters not whether it rings true to you.
It rings true to me. I'd been there all the
time and we haven't had a situation where things where
the wheels are falling off quite the opposite. It's started
off with some meeting this in terms of where we
were going in our timeline, because frankly we had to
(05:10):
learn as we went. But things came right very early
in this year and have gone well ever since. It's
a high pressure job because we're doing a massive inquiry
within a very short space of time. When you compare
what we're doing to what other inquiries that have done overseas,
(05:34):
I mean, if you ever look, if you ever look
at the UK Inquiry, we are very small.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Indeed, does it I take it you've looked at the
UK Inquiry? Could you conclude something similar to what they've concluded,
and that is that lockdowns weren't needed.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
They haven't concluded that.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
What I read over the weekend, they seem to conclude
that very clearly.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Well, you've concluded you've read it wrong. The situation there
is Baron Baroness Halett has said that they should have
acted more urgently at the beginning, much more urgently at
the beginning. It took it very casually and they should
have established things like masks and spacing and all the
(06:18):
rest of it. And if they had done that, it
might possibly have.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Eliminated name not needed.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
It might possibly have done that. I personally find that
difficult to accept.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
But when you compare, when you compare that to what
happened in New Zealand, they had twenty six thousand deaths
between March and April.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
In early twenty twenty, we had one, and over the
whole of twenty twenty our total deaths attributed to COVID
were twenty five. So you're just not talking any You're
not making a sensible comparison if you try to compare
(07:05):
what happened here with what happened there.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Even though we locked down at exactly the same day,
in fact, almost to the day, we locked down at
the same time.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
We did, but we did so in different circumstances and
for different reasons. And by the way, i'm talking out
a turn because Phase two is not reconsidering twenty twenty.
We've got a different focus, which is twenty twenty one,
when our government faced some very difficult decisions as Delta arrived,
(07:37):
Auckland lockdown. How long do you keep the lockdown going
for all of these things matters that we've looked at
with in intense detail over the past few months, and
or will be revealed when our our report comes out
the beginning of next year.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And I appreciate your time, Grant Hillingworth, KC. What do
you make of that? For more from the mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to News Talks at B from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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