June 16, 2025 • 11 mins
Ian Foster was one of the more polarising All Blacks coaches in recent memory.
He took the helm after the superb record of Sir Steve Hansen, and during his time there were constant discussions surrounding his job security.
During his tenure he had a win rate of 70% and lost New Zealand the number one world ranking, but at the same time, he won 4 Bledisloe Cups, 4 Freedom Cups, and 3 Rugby Championships, as well as coming within a point of winning the Rugby World Cup.
Foster is still in the coaching game over in Japan, but in the meantime, he’s written a book called ‘Leading Under Pressure’, that tells the story of his time with the All Blacks.
He told Mike Hosking he had never intended to write a book, but felt it was an important story to tell.
“A lot of the feedback we got is that people actually saw a team go through a journey over those four years,” he said.
“I just felt that I almost owed it to my management team and a lot of my leading players to actually tell the story of the journey of that particular team.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Time for catch up with the and faster. You remember him,
coach controversy, the bloke after Hanson, before Robertson. But there
is a bit of a story in the tenure. Seventy
percent winning rate, thirty two wins, twelve losses. We lost
our number one world ranking of course, one four letters
loads for Freedom Cup story, Rugby Championships. He's got the lines.
Two are coming up, but he's got a role in that.
Coach is currently in Japan. His new book is called
(00:20):
Leading under Pressure and the Ian Foster's with us. Very
good morning morning Mike. Last time we talked, you were
heading home to do those beautiful lawns of yours. How
are they looking?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Your memory is pretty good anyway, and the lawns have
been made. But subsequently I've actually shut off to do
a bit of work in Japan for a year, so
I've had to GE's someone else into mote them. But
back now, grass has grown in the wye caddow, which
is a good sign.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Good where are you at psychologically, mentally, culturally everything You're
feeling good about yourself in life?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yep, I am.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's you know, like it's came back from the World
Cup and gave myself a chance to breathe a little
bit before we thought about.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
What's next and looked at a.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Couple of options around the world, but decided coaching at
a club level was the next thing for me, and
so really enjoying the experience in Japan, you know, teaching
an old dog new tricks and you know, having to
adjust to a new environment.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
So I've actually really enjoyed that.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
But like I said, it's great to be having for
two or three months and reconnect back here and be
heading back over there for the next year comes September.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
What's your observation of Japan and it's rugby, because it's
not like it doesn't have a good New Zealand connection
these days, both with coaches and players. Is it progressing?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, I think the Japan competition really is. It's in fact,
you know, it's been a learning curve for me. But
talking to a lot of the other coaches up there,
both a lot of South African and ki We coaches
who really believe that competition is just like this last
year they felt was one of the best it's ever
been in terms of strength, and I think when you
(02:01):
look around the world in terms of the viability of competitions.
Probably the French competition in the in the japan competition
of the two that are probably stand alone, has been
really financially viable, so i'd see massive growth and that
that domestic competition up there.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
How what's your view of global rugby and the reason
I asked that a superfold one of the Japanese comment
you just made this R three sixty thing that may
or may not come to something. This this this club
competition with some super rugby teams South versus North, plus
the international calendar or all of that. Is rugby in
a healthy state or is there a too much rugby?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I think it's in a healthy state. But I mean,
if you look at look at two things for the
for the game to really to thrive, you've got to
have great governance, and you've got to have and you've
got to have great competition structures. And I think it's
at at both those levels. The game's gone through massive transitions.
You've seen it in our country the last four or
(03:02):
five years, and it's sort of some things that I
address in the book we've done, where you know, you
look at introduction of private equity, different types of people owning,
owning parts of the game. And it's not wrong or
it's not bad, it's just required a whole rethink of
how the game operates. And so the government sides a challenge.
(03:23):
And so's the competition side. Because you go around the
world to a lot of the major competitions, they're struggling
to sustain their competition on a financial backing.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So how they go about that?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
And so the dilemma has always been what do you
do more? And you go bigger and shinier, But the
trouble that doesn't.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Increase your costs as well.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So there's a big rethink going on about how particularly
in the Northern hemisphere. You know, a lot of what
used to be.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
A stronghold in terms of the club stuff is.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
There's a lot of financial pressure in that market.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Is that how rugby is run? Because I've got a
sort of a personal interest in international sport generally, and
I look at it from a business point of view.
If you look at the American market particularly, it's booming.
I mean, there is no shortage of money for sport,
and sport is wealthy, and yet there are some parts
of rugby that's not wealthy. In fact, the ends are
lose money. Is that because there isn't money for rugby
(04:17):
or because the way rugby's run is a problem.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, it's probably a combination of both.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
But I think if you look at the American market,
and to a certain degree even the Australian market, an AFL,
NRAL is that their strength is there is their club competition,
their franchise competitions, and like in America, like they're massively strong,
and in sports that really don't need the international game,
(04:45):
you know, like NFL that they they don't try to
take it global as such, that is interested in promoting
their own brand. So whereas rugby, particularly when you look
around the world and you look at countries like New Zealand,
need the international game to be strong because that's that's
most of the most of our revenue. So but if
(05:07):
you also need to give more autonomy to to the
franchises that operate underneath because they need to be financially
sustainable as well. So it's as you give more autonomy
to the to the competition structure, sometimes it depowers the
international structure. And that's the dilemma for rugby to get right.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
It's interesting, let me ask you the all Blacks where
where where do you see the all blacks as I mean,
are they as powerful an entity as they ever have been?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Or not? Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
You know they're still a you know, if you look
at a brand, they're a massive brand, and you know,
you live in Japan and you realize how realize again
how powerful they can be. But it's you know, the
beauty of that is that's you know that that can
change quickly. You know that the power of the brand
(05:54):
has really come from a.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Set of values that have.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Been built up over one hundred years of New Zealand,
and the key is to as we go through new eras,
to make sure you don't walk away from those values.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Is rugby angsty in terms of my look, I don't know.
I don't know. I'm a fan, that's all I am.
But I look at the way rugby's run in this
country and you've got your provincial, you've got your national,
you've got you know, the fact you're losing money worries me.
But it seems there's an angst to rugby that's not
particularly necessary or am I misreading that?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah? Look, I think there always has been, Mike, and
I mean, first of all, we need you to stay
a fan. We want people to stay in love with
the game. We talk a lot about it. There's always
there's always, you know, conflict points between the NPC, Super Rugby,
All Blacks, governance, all that sort of stuff, and that's
(06:45):
kind of part of it in some ways that it's
a healthy it's healthy that those things get discussed publicly,
you know, because it's you know, it's part of the game,
part of the country. And I think there are but
there are a lot of issues that need to be resolved.
Got to make sure, you know, we don't keep strong
the base of our game, then there's not a lot
(07:06):
left for us at.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
That at the top level.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
So although I don't think, I don't think we should
be massively concerned about it, but we certainly have to
be prepared to change.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
What have you looked at as regard I mean, the
whole book's called leading under pressure, and no one lead
under more pressure than you because you know, everyone had
a knee and Foster view of the world, didn't they
At the end of that Well, wait, what do you
think of that now that you've got that in the
reavision mirror?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, look, I reckon it's an important story to tell
I never I say in the book. I never intended
to write a book. I never didn't really I thought
that was some important or more interesting people. But I
just feel that post World Cup came back to a
to a country that was probably you know, clear, I
(07:55):
can't speak on behalf of everyone, but a lot of
the feedback we got it that people actually saw a
team go through a journey over those four years, and
even those that were critical and didn't like things and
hated losing to Ireland like all of us, but they
saw a team come out the other side a little
bit and grow towards the end. And I just felt
(08:15):
that I almost owed it to a management team and
a lot of my leading players to actually tell the
story of the journey of that particular team, because there's
no doubt that going through going through COVID and the
quarantines and all the things that we will know about
those this first twenty twenty twenty one changed the way
(08:37):
we approached those four years. That put us under a
lot of pressure, and it put everyone under a lot
of pressure. But telling the story about how we as
an organization dealt with that, and some of it's probably
not good, but to me. I'm intensely proud of how
a team sort of really stuck together even with a
(09:00):
bit of adversity checked at it, or a lot of
adversity checked that it sort of relied on itself to
sort of dig itself out of a bit of a
hole and.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Nearly got there.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
So that's kind of the story, and you know, people
can can judge it from whichever angle they want, but
I felt it was an important one to share because
I've just got massive regard for the people that I
worked with and went through the same trip that I did.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
How do you deal with it as a leader under
pressure when you've got young men under pressure but they
won't have known what you already know, and they're all
individuals anyway, and deal with things in different faces of
their life and approach.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
A great quote I believe in which is a river
without banks is called a flood. And you've actually got
to supply I think when things are uncertain, you've got
to supply some certainty and you've got to be brutally
honest about it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
You've got to say, well, this is where we're at,
this is.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Where we're going, and then you've got to walk alongside
people and I think that's what happened at that time period,
is that yet to actually rather than push or pull
them along, you had to walk alongside them because everyone
had had concerns at different levels.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
It was a different time to lead. You had to
lead a different way. Some of it clearly that I
wouldn't have said I got right all the time, but
it was certainly that that was how I felt we
went through that period and.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And some of the pressure you.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Was generated outside the organization. Some of that was generated
inside the organization, but the strategy of how we dealt
what it was the same.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Mark Robinson, who you're well aware is quite recently he
said no regrets. Do you have any regrets?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
No, Well, when I say no regrets in terms of
the way I led and how I went through things,
you know, I don't think you can never say you
got no regrets because you never get it one hundred
dent right, But I think did I learn?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Did I move through things? Did I you know?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And ultimately as a leader, yeah, the ultimate test is
if you think you're a leader, but you look over
over your shoulder and no one's following, then you're not
doing a good job.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
But the fact that that we had a team that
stayed tight.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
United and under a lot of pressure when I performed
at the end, then that's something that I'm really proud of.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Good stuff. Listen good to catch up. You might go well,
the book is Leading under Pressure. He and Foster with
us this morning. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to news talks that'd be from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Time for catch up with the and faster. You remember him,
coach controversy, the bloke after Hanson, before Robertson. But there
is a bit of a story in the tenure. Seventy
percent winning rate, thirty two wins, twelve losses. We lost
our number one world ranking of course, one four letters
loads for Freedom Cup story, Rugby Championships. He's got the lines.
Two are coming up, but he's got a role in that.
Coach is currently in Japan. His new book is called
(00:20):
Leading under Pressure and the Ian Foster's with us. Very
good morning morning Mike. Last time we talked, you were
heading home to do those beautiful lawns of yours. How
are they looking?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Your memory is pretty good anyway, and the lawns have
been made. But subsequently I've actually shut off to do
a bit of work in Japan for a year, so
I've had to GE's someone else into mote them. But
back now, grass has grown in the wye caddow, which
is a good sign.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Good where are you at psychologically, mentally, culturally everything You're
feeling good about yourself in life?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yep, I am.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's you know, like it's came back from the World
Cup and gave myself a chance to breathe a little
bit before we thought about.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
What's next and looked at a.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Couple of options around the world, but decided coaching at
a club level was the next thing for me, and
so really enjoying the experience in Japan, you know, teaching
an old dog new tricks and you know, having to
adjust to a new environment.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
So I've actually really enjoyed that.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
But like I said, it's great to be having for
two or three months and reconnect back here and be
heading back over there for the next year comes September.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
What's your observation of Japan and it's rugby, because it's
not like it doesn't have a good New Zealand connection
these days, both with coaches and players. Is it progressing?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, I think the Japan competition really is. It's in fact,
you know, it's been a learning curve for me. But
talking to a lot of the other coaches up there,
both a lot of South African and ki We coaches
who really believe that competition is just like this last
year they felt was one of the best it's ever
been in terms of strength, and I think when you
(02:01):
look around the world in terms of the viability of competitions.
Probably the French competition in the in the japan competition
of the two that are probably stand alone, has been
really financially viable, so i'd see massive growth and that
that domestic competition up there.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
How what's your view of global rugby and the reason
I asked that a superfold one of the Japanese comment
you just made this R three sixty thing that may
or may not come to something. This this this club
competition with some super rugby teams South versus North, plus
the international calendar or all of that. Is rugby in
a healthy state or is there a too much rugby?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I think it's in a healthy state. But I mean,
if you look at look at two things for the
for the game to really to thrive, you've got to
have great governance, and you've got to have and you've
got to have great competition structures. And I think it's
at at both those levels. The game's gone through massive transitions.
You've seen it in our country the last four or
(03:02):
five years, and it's sort of some things that I
address in the book we've done, where you know, you
look at introduction of private equity, different types of people owning,
owning parts of the game. And it's not wrong or
it's not bad, it's just required a whole rethink of
how the game operates. And so the government sides a challenge.
(03:23):
And so's the competition side. Because you go around the
world to a lot of the major competitions, they're struggling
to sustain their competition on a financial backing.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So how they go about that?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
And so the dilemma has always been what do you
do more? And you go bigger and shinier, But the
trouble that doesn't.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Increase your costs as well.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So there's a big rethink going on about how particularly
in the Northern hemisphere. You know, a lot of what
used to be.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
A stronghold in terms of the club stuff is.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
There's a lot of financial pressure in that market.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Is that how rugby is run? Because I've got a
sort of a personal interest in international sport generally, and
I look at it from a business point of view.
If you look at the American market particularly, it's booming.
I mean, there is no shortage of money for sport,
and sport is wealthy, and yet there are some parts
of rugby that's not wealthy. In fact, the ends are
lose money. Is that because there isn't money for rugby
(04:17):
or because the way rugby's run is a problem.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, it's probably a combination of both.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
But I think if you look at the American market,
and to a certain degree even the Australian market, an AFL,
NRAL is that their strength is there is their club competition,
their franchise competitions, and like in America, like they're massively strong,
and in sports that really don't need the international game,
(04:45):
you know, like NFL that they they don't try to
take it global as such, that is interested in promoting
their own brand. So whereas rugby, particularly when you look
around the world and you look at countries like New Zealand,
need the international game to be strong because that's that's
most of the most of our revenue. So but if
(05:07):
you also need to give more autonomy to to the
franchises that operate underneath because they need to be financially
sustainable as well. So it's as you give more autonomy
to the to the competition structure, sometimes it depowers the
international structure. And that's the dilemma for rugby to get right.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
It's interesting, let me ask you the all Blacks where
where where do you see the all blacks as I mean,
are they as powerful an entity as they ever have been?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Or not? Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
You know they're still a you know, if you look
at a brand, they're a massive brand, and you know,
you live in Japan and you realize how realize again
how powerful they can be. But it's you know, the
beauty of that is that's you know that that can
change quickly. You know that the power of the brand
(05:54):
has really come from a.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Set of values that have.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Been built up over one hundred years of New Zealand,
and the key is to as we go through new eras,
to make sure you don't walk away from those values.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Is rugby angsty in terms of my look, I don't know.
I don't know. I'm a fan, that's all I am.
But I look at the way rugby's run in this
country and you've got your provincial, you've got your national,
you've got you know, the fact you're losing money worries me.
But it seems there's an angst to rugby that's not
particularly necessary or am I misreading that?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah? Look, I think there always has been, Mike, and
I mean, first of all, we need you to stay
a fan. We want people to stay in love with
the game. We talk a lot about it. There's always
there's always, you know, conflict points between the NPC, Super Rugby,
All Blacks, governance, all that sort of stuff, and that's
(06:45):
kind of part of it in some ways that it's
a healthy it's healthy that those things get discussed publicly,
you know, because it's you know, it's part of the game,
part of the country. And I think there are but
there are a lot of issues that need to be resolved.
Got to make sure, you know, we don't keep strong
the base of our game, then there's not a lot
(07:06):
left for us at.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
That at the top level.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
So although I don't think, I don't think we should
be massively concerned about it, but we certainly have to
be prepared to change.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
What have you looked at as regard I mean, the
whole book's called leading under pressure, and no one lead
under more pressure than you because you know, everyone had
a knee and Foster view of the world, didn't they
At the end of that Well, wait, what do you
think of that now that you've got that in the
reavision mirror?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, look, I reckon it's an important story to tell
I never I say in the book. I never intended
to write a book. I never didn't really I thought
that was some important or more interesting people. But I
just feel that post World Cup came back to a
to a country that was probably you know, clear, I
(07:55):
can't speak on behalf of everyone, but a lot of
the feedback we got it that people actually saw a
team go through a journey over those four years, and
even those that were critical and didn't like things and
hated losing to Ireland like all of us, but they
saw a team come out the other side a little
bit and grow towards the end. And I just felt
(08:15):
that I almost owed it to a management team and
a lot of my leading players to actually tell the
story of the journey of that particular team, because there's
no doubt that going through going through COVID and the
quarantines and all the things that we will know about
those this first twenty twenty twenty one changed the way
(08:37):
we approached those four years. That put us under a
lot of pressure, and it put everyone under a lot
of pressure. But telling the story about how we as
an organization dealt with that, and some of it's probably
not good, but to me. I'm intensely proud of how
a team sort of really stuck together even with a
(09:00):
bit of adversity checked at it, or a lot of
adversity checked that it sort of relied on itself to
sort of dig itself out of a bit of a
hole and.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Nearly got there.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
So that's kind of the story, and you know, people
can can judge it from whichever angle they want, but
I felt it was an important one to share because
I've just got massive regard for the people that I
worked with and went through the same trip that I did.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
How do you deal with it as a leader under
pressure when you've got young men under pressure but they
won't have known what you already know, and they're all
individuals anyway, and deal with things in different faces of
their life and approach.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
A great quote I believe in which is a river
without banks is called a flood. And you've actually got
to supply I think when things are uncertain, you've got
to supply some certainty and you've got to be brutally
honest about it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
You've got to say, well, this is where we're at,
this is.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Where we're going, and then you've got to walk alongside
people and I think that's what happened at that time period,
is that yet to actually rather than push or pull
them along, you had to walk alongside them because everyone
had had concerns at different levels.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
It was a different time to lead. You had to
lead a different way. Some of it clearly that I
wouldn't have said I got right all the time, but
it was certainly that that was how I felt we
went through that period and.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And some of the pressure you.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Was generated outside the organization. Some of that was generated
inside the organization, but the strategy of how we dealt
what it was the same.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Mark Robinson, who you're well aware is quite recently he
said no regrets. Do you have any regrets?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
No, Well, when I say no regrets in terms of
the way I led and how I went through things,
you know, I don't think you can never say you
got no regrets because you never get it one hundred
dent right, But I think did I learn?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Did I move through things? Did I you know?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And ultimately as a leader, yeah, the ultimate test is
if you think you're a leader, but you look over
over your shoulder and no one's following, then you're not
doing a good job.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
But the fact that that we had a team that
stayed tight.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
United and under a lot of pressure when I performed
at the end, then that's something that I'm really proud of.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Good stuff. Listen good to catch up. You might go well,
the book is Leading under Pressure. He and Foster with
us this morning. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to news talks that'd be from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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