Karen Chhour: Children's Minister on the potential use of force at youth offender boot camps

The Children's Minister says force can be used by boot camp providers, but only in very strict conditions. 

The Government's proposing to allow the use of force for restraining youth offenders at military-style boot camps. 

A leaked ministerial document suggests this could increase the potential risk of abuse in custody. 

But Minister Karen Chhour told Mike Hosking the programme is being designed to keep young people and staff safe. 

She says they would use restraint if a child was going to abscond, or hurt themselves or someone else, which already happens in some facilities. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Governmently by the Prime Minister on the show yesterday dug
themselves a little bit of a whole overlite documents around
the military style academies. The government's running to straighten out
these young criminals. Now the papers showed that the academy
should be able to use force. The Prime Minister city
didn't know, wasn't briefed, despite the fact they had gone
before cabinet. Apparently now the minister in charge of all
of this is Karen Shaw, and she as well us. Karen,
very good morning to you. Yesterday the Herald were claiming

(00:24):
you weren't wanting to answer questions on that one. Is
that true and why weren't you willing to answer questions?

Speaker 2 (00:30):
It tends to be very cautious about speaking to a
document that I know nothing about. I haven't seen and
don't know what it is.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Okay, is that still the case, rud you get hold
of the document yesterday.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
There are certain things also that I follow as well,
and that would be cabinet procedure, and I'm just very
cautious about speaking about decisions that still have things to
be considered.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Have you still not spoken to the Prime Minister.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
About I haven't actually sat down and had an individual
conversation with the promise and no, I haven't.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Without giving anything away as to what's going on in cabinet,
has it gone before cabinet?

Speaker 2 (01:11):
The decisions that have gone before cabinet are the ones
that are already public and the ones that I spoke
about in Question Time yesterday, where we have made the
decisions around whether force can be used in other situations
rather than just in the detention residence.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Can force be used.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yes, force can be used, but only under very strict
conditions and we have regulations to protect that.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Why when force can be used? Did the Prime Minister
not know that?

Speaker 2 (01:46):
I'm sure the premise that would know that when you're
in detention that you can be restrained in special circumstances.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
He didn't know that, he said he didn't know.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, I I wouldn't double to comment to that.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Sorry, How does cabinet work work? Once again, without giving
it away, When something comes before cabinet, this is very
important part of the cabinet process. When it comes before
is it actually discussed openly? And if you're in the room,
are you cognizant of what is being agreed to and discussed?

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah? So that that would be their expectation that everybody,
if there are any questions, you can ask questions for
any paper or for anything that you're putting forward, but
it also goes out for concerts, also reconsult with each other.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Right, So, having had it before cabinet and having discussed
it in any questions to be asked were asked, how
come the Prime Minister doesn't know what's going on?

Speaker 2 (02:46):
I was I can't actually speak to the process of
anything particular. I'm just talking to the process in general,
so that that comment I made was not what happened
in particular to anything, all right, to make sure that
you understand that.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
If that's fine. If I had asked you yesterday as
to whether the government had agreed that force will be
used in these military camps, would you have been able
to answer that question or not.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
This is my portfolio and my paper, so I yes,
I would have been able to answer that to.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
You, And as of yesterday you would have been able
to say, yes, you will be using force.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
I would be saying we would use restraints if a
child that was going to abscond or was going to
hurt themselves and hurt somebody else that already currently happens
with certain facilities.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Right, So to get to and there's two parts to this,
I guess one is whether you think that that's acceptable
or not in people like the Greens and the Marry
Party don't. But I suspect that most New Zealanders would
be on your side in that sense. But it's a
very sensitive subject, a subject that you'll be apologizing for
next Tuesday on different matters. Is why wasn't the government
cognizant and sensitive enough to understand that that is the

(04:05):
situation and therefore be upfront and fully knowledgeable about what
they are about to do.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
This is this is not making changes to the fact
that this can already currently happen. And all I am
all the changes I made were to make it that is,
the outside of a setting of the secure residents like
on a field trip or out on an overnight camping trip,

(04:35):
that we have the ability to keep them safe and
keep our staff safe. So yes, there is a report
into the abusing care and safe based places. But the
fact of the matter is is if we are going
to give these kids a shot, if we are going

(04:56):
to give these young people a chance, we have to
have their to actually put a little bit of trust
in them and be able to do things outside of
the residents.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
But we also have to keep ourselves safe.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
While doing that.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
I appreciate your time very much, Karen Shaw, the Children's Minister.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
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Speaker 1 (05:17):
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