The results are expected to spark soul-searching in the Democrat Party.
Donald Trump has secured the presidency after claiming more than the 270 Electoral College votes needed.
Kamala Harris is set to officially concede the race after projections show her securing only 223 votes to Trump’s 276.
Former BBC correspondent Nick Bryant told Mike Hosking one of the big 'what ifs' the party will be grappling with is whether Harris was the right candidate.
He says that voting on a candidate within the party could’ve risked splitting the Democratic Party and splitting the vote.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So let's wrap what unfolded in America these past twenty
four hours. The counting rolls on, of course, and we're
still here from Kamela Herrish's coming in in just under
two hours time. Apparently the Republicans have done enough to
grab the White House and control the Senate. It was
a clean result in Philly, obvious as our afternoon rolled
into evening. There's also history at play, of course, given
a former president running for office having been booted out
(00:20):
doesn't happen every day. Nick Bryant is back with us. Nick,
morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hey, Mike, it felt like we've seen that movie before
when we were together in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Well, I'm glad you raised that because last night when
I was watching in the Washington Square and the guy
wandered out in the early hours of the morning and
said she won't be appearing tonight. Bang, I was straight
back at the jebb At Center in sixteen. It was
like two point zero, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
It really was.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I remember that night everybody was told to go home.
John Potesta, who was a campaign chief, came out and
said the candidate will be speaking tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
And you know, at that point it's all over.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I mean Hillary Clinton, of course had that massive glass
ceiling above her state that she was figuratively supposed to smash.
Kamala Harris hadn't gone for that kind of symbolism, but
still devastating for her. She's just actually called up Donald
Trump to concede. Apparently she's stressed the importance of the
transfer of power and also that he should try.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
And govern for all of Americans.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
But I think one of the key stats in this
election is he hasn't only won the electoral college vote,
it looks very much like he's going to win the
nationwide popular vote as well.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Exactly. Glad to have you on as always, but specifically
your experience in what they call the rust belt, those
states that maybe a part of America that we in
New Zealand, having gone to Los Angeles and New York,
don't get when you get into those places. That's where
Trump again won. What is it about that world that
we don't see get or understand that they look at
(01:49):
him and go, You're the savior.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
That was always the seed bed of Trump is and
Mike I was camped out there in twenty sixteen, and
those empty factories and those derelics, steel mills became echo
chambers to make America great again. You know, Bill Clinton
Mike had spoken about building a Bristol of the twenty
first century, how the manufacturing economy would be replaced by
a kind of information economy. But if you were living
(02:13):
in the Rost Belt, that Bridstol of the twenty first
century felt more like a bypass. You felt like an
economic castaway in a system that was becoming ever more globalized,
ever more digital, ever more confusing. And I think you
know that the economics of the Rost Belt obviously still
(02:34):
still play into it. You know, you're throwing inflation as well.
I mean, everybody's spats in the old Clintonian cliche about
it's the economy stupid. Well, I think it's the felt
economy stupid, because a lot of the economic indices are
pretty good for America right now, but not in those communities.
And also, you know, it's the inflation stupid. I mean,
if you are living with hard gas prices and high
(02:55):
grocery prices and you're paying more for the mortgage, you
know you're not too happy, and you go to take
out your age, and once again, I think.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
You know Donald Trump's become a bit of a.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Protest candidate for these people who feel that they're not
being listened to, they're not being heard, and one way
that they do get heard is to vote for Donald
Trump exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Is that why the Democrats lost because on the economy,
on immigration, they hadn't done anything, and they had a
record of not doing enough, and before they couldn't defend it.
So they started talking about abortion and that was the
end of it for them.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, look, I think some of their focus Gript told
them that, you know, putting democracy on the ballot would
work for them again in twenty twenty four, as it
had done in the midterms in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I think that was a key thing.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I think they saw what happened not just on January
of six, but what happened on twenty twenty one, but
what happened on June the twenty four, twenty twenty two.
That was when the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Way.
They thought that was going to be a big vote
winning as it was in twenty and twenty two.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
And I think, you know, in the.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Midterm elections, they did better than expect and you know
what that made them do is stick with Biden. I think,
you know, when you look back at the history of this,
I think the fact that Biden did better than expected
and Democrats did better than expected in twenty twenty two
made them think, you know, maybe Joe can win us
another four years. And of course at that stage he
(04:19):
was very old. You know, we were to learn later
quite had dottery and old he'd got. And if they'd
have done badly in twenty twenty two, I think there
would have been a grand swell in the Democratic Party.
We need to find a new candidate. We need to
find a better candidate than Joe Biden. There would have
been a primary system. Carmla Harris would have had to
compete with other Democrats who might have had a better
claim and might have been better candidates.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
And yeah, well, actually that's why I wanted to ask,
was Obama actually right because he was one of the
few who said just hold on here, let's think about
it and maybe have a vote. Was Harris a mistake?
Could they have found somebody that would have made a difference,
ordered Biden and bury them.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, here's my take on that, Mike I. Obama wasn't
the only one. Nancy Pelosi as well. She wanted some
kind of speedy, little kind of mini primary. When Joe
Biden finally decided to release that white knuckle grip on
the torch, you know, he really wanted to run again,
didn't he. And this was part of the problem. He
loved being president. He thought he could win the rust Belt.
He thought he's did a better chance than Kamala Harris,
(05:20):
which is one of the reasons why he stayed on
for so long.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
But yeah, I mean, it's going to be one of
the big what ifs.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
The problem Mike with trying to find another candidate was
you risk splitting the Democratic Party and you risked annoying
the most loyal constituency of all, which is African American women.
There were senior Black Democrats like Jim Clive and a
very influential congressman in South Carolina. As you know, he's
(05:47):
part of the reason why Biden's the president. Now, they
were saying, if it's not Joe, it's got to be Karmela.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
There were other people saying that too.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
If they'd have had that kind of process and ended
up with a candidate I don't know, like Gretchen Whitner,
who's shown that she can win the ross belt state
of Michigan not just once but twice, or something like
Gavin you some the California governor. Maybe they would have
stood a better chance. But in finding that better candidate,
they risked splitting the Democratic Party into.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Look your scenes. My view of the Trump campaign this
time around was it was more professional, more slick, better organized.
Was that your view? And does that get reflected in
a second term or not?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Look, there's all these great stories about the divisions within
the Trump campaign between a campaign who really just wanted
to focus on the economy literally asked that Reagan question,
are you better off four years ago than you were?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Are you better off now than you were four years ago?
The answer of which is obviously.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
No, And that the campaign high command then going a
bit crazy when Trump did the weave as he called it,
when he starts talking about how of a lecta, all
the crazy stuff. But yeah, they I think at the
top they had, you know, two real pros running things,
no question about it. I mean, the Democrats thought they
had his financial advances, that the Democrats thought they had
(07:03):
this organizational advantage, and they have a very good grand game.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
They good at getting votes.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Out but yeah, I mean, you know Trump's I mean
that the whole we've kind of worked for him, didn't it.
I mean, talking about the economy, talking about immigration, all
the other kind of stuff and the crazy stuff, and
that we've wasn't sufficiently off putting to voters to put
them off.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So he's going to drill for oil. So he can
do that, and that's easy. And the if you look
at the markets this morning, they've responded favorably. Ken he
fix the war? Kenny salt putin? Can he solve the
Middle East? Does he get to do any of that
or not?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Good?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Wow, it's just to go into this world. It's just
also mind blowing, isn't it in many ways? You know,
let's boil that down. What can he do straight away? Well,
one thing we think he'll do is obviously impose far
more tariffs, and that would intensify the trade board with China.
I mean, you know, it's interesting the markets have reacted
(08:00):
this way, perhaps so just happy about the certainty of
the moment, perhaps so reflecting the kind of impact on
sort of energy companies who are going to be able
to drill now with that kind of environmental regulations that.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Have visits in the past, but there is a sense
if there is a.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Trade or it won't only kind of inflate prices in America,
which could increase interest rates. That could lead to a
sific global downturn. I mean, I live in Australia. There's
been some modeling here that suggests it's going to dip
GDP by one point two percent if there is a
deepening of the trade or so that that'll be a concern. Yeah, environmentally,
you know, he'll pull out of Paris again, as he did.
(08:34):
I was with him the last time he pulled out
of Paris. You know, it's so hot that day in
the brose Garden Mic that our phone stopped working. You
know when you get that temperature thing on your phone.
If anything symbolized what was at stake and the discrepancy
between what was coming out of the President's maath, it
was my phone not working.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
My computer would work. I've never had that before. My
laptop would not operate because it was so hot.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
But he'll pull out of He'll pull out of Paris. Obviously,
that has massive ravigations around the world. When you know
the world's you know, most powerful country and its second
biggest Polluta pulls out of a global climate change agreement
like that, Yeah, we're we're back in trump Land again.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, exactly does he? And I'm sort of pontificating here,
does he set the table for the Republicans in twenty
eight or in other words, the Republicans and JD Vans,
whether it's him or not, can can go and propel
themselves into fore slash eight years? Or is he so
unique that it ends in twenty eight?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
No? I think Trump isn't needs Trump. I mean, you
know that's been proven over and over again.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
You know when when trump Bean candidates stand up often,
you know they just don't do particularly well because they
haven't got this magnetism that he's got. They haven't got
the sort of Chrisman that he's got, they haven't got
this sort of personal cult following that he's got.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I do think Trump isn't needs Trump.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
The other thing I'd say, looking forward by is what
we've seen here is something quite new in American politics
in recent times, which is, you know, you've had one
term of Trump followed by one term Biden followed by
another Trump. You know, you don't generally get consecutive one
term presidencies.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
You generally get. You know, the pattern.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
More recently has been, you know, Clinton not two terms,
Bush got two terms, Obama got two terms. Now you
have had one Trump, one Biden one Trump.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So what I'm saying is there's a big mood of
anti incumbency. And this is a global thing, right, This
isn't just in America. There's rage out there. It's inflation driven,
its economy driven. And a lot of governments aren't sticking
around for long.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
You look at Britain, it's got a new government, and
the new government is already hated. It's only been there
about five months. You know, the politics at the moment
of the world are very feebra.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Where do you, Rickham, as you and I will gather
in thirty years time when we're seriously old, mean and
we'll look back, We'll look back on what Trump was,
what he is and what he was about. Where where
do you reckon he sits? How remarkable is hell?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Look, my argument in the book The Forever War is
that Trump is as much a product of American history
as Abraham Lincoln, as John F. Kennedy, as Ronald Reagan,
as Joe Biden or a Barack Obama. It's just the
history that we tend to forget, overlook and sometimes conceal.
And it's a history, Mike that often contradicts the grand
(11:21):
narrative that a lot of people like to buy into
that America is this story of progress, that America's history
of advancement. You know, you get Barack Obama, the first
African American president, so you're going to get the first
female president, Hillary Clinton. Now that didn't happen in twoenty
and sixteen, as both of us know, and there was
this feeling, well, if America is going to progress, it's
going to have a black female president. You know, history
(11:42):
doesn't work like that. American history doesn't work like that.
Trump taps into a kind of native isn't That's always
been there. There's always been a strong men.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Have always done well.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
The week tend to get discarded, which is why Joe
Biden didn't stand any chance of getting re election. You know,
Conspiratorialism has always been part of the American story.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
You know, it's the.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
American story that people kind of like to turn away from,
they want to avert their gaze from.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
But it's a history that makes sense of Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Amazing all right mate, Always a pleasure catch up soon.
Appreciate it very much. Nick Bryant, who's with us out
of Australia this morning.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
For more from the mic Asking Breakfast listen live to
news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
So let's wrap what unfolded in America these past twenty
four hours. The counting rolls on, of course, and we're
still here from Kamela Herrish's coming in in just under
two hours time. Apparently the Republicans have done enough to
grab the White House and control the Senate. It was
a clean result in Philly, obvious as our afternoon rolled
into evening. There's also history at play, of course, given
a former president running for office having been booted out
(00:20):
doesn't happen every day. Nick Bryant is back with us. Nick,
morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hey, Mike, it felt like we've seen that movie before
when we were together in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Well, I'm glad you raised that because last night when
I was watching in the Washington Square and the guy
wandered out in the early hours of the morning and
said she won't be appearing tonight. Bang, I was straight
back at the jebb At Center in sixteen. It was
like two point zero, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
It really was.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I remember that night everybody was told to go home.
John Potesta, who was a campaign chief, came out and
said the candidate will be speaking tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
And you know, at that point it's all over.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I mean Hillary Clinton, of course had that massive glass
ceiling above her state that she was figuratively supposed to smash.
Kamala Harris hadn't gone for that kind of symbolism, but
still devastating for her. She's just actually called up Donald
Trump to concede. Apparently she's stressed the importance of the
transfer of power and also that he should try.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
And govern for all of Americans.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
But I think one of the key stats in this
election is he hasn't only won the electoral college vote,
it looks very much like he's going to win the
nationwide popular vote as well.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Exactly. Glad to have you on as always, but specifically
your experience in what they call the rust belt, those
states that maybe a part of America that we in
New Zealand, having gone to Los Angeles and New York,
don't get when you get into those places. That's where
Trump again won. What is it about that world that
we don't see get or understand that they look at
(01:49):
him and go, You're the savior.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
That was always the seed bed of Trump is and
Mike I was camped out there in twenty sixteen, and
those empty factories and those derelics, steel mills became echo
chambers to make America great again. You know, Bill Clinton
Mike had spoken about building a Bristol of the twenty
first century, how the manufacturing economy would be replaced by
a kind of information economy. But if you were living
(02:13):
in the Rost Belt, that Bridstol of the twenty first
century felt more like a bypass. You felt like an
economic castaway in a system that was becoming ever more globalized,
ever more digital, ever more confusing. And I think you
know that the economics of the Rost Belt obviously still
(02:34):
still play into it. You know, you're throwing inflation as well.
I mean, everybody's spats in the old Clintonian cliche about
it's the economy stupid. Well, I think it's the felt
economy stupid, because a lot of the economic indices are
pretty good for America right now, but not in those communities.
And also, you know, it's the inflation stupid. I mean,
if you are living with hard gas prices and high
(02:55):
grocery prices and you're paying more for the mortgage, you
know you're not too happy, and you go to take
out your age, and once again, I think.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
You know Donald Trump's become a bit of a.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Protest candidate for these people who feel that they're not
being listened to, they're not being heard, and one way
that they do get heard is to vote for Donald
Trump exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Is that why the Democrats lost because on the economy,
on immigration, they hadn't done anything, and they had a
record of not doing enough, and before they couldn't defend it.
So they started talking about abortion and that was the
end of it for them.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, look, I think some of their focus Gript told
them that, you know, putting democracy on the ballot would
work for them again in twenty twenty four, as it
had done in the midterms in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I think that was a key thing.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I think they saw what happened not just on January
of six, but what happened on twenty twenty one, but
what happened on June the twenty four, twenty twenty two.
That was when the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Way.
They thought that was going to be a big vote
winning as it was in twenty and twenty two.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
And I think, you know, in the.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Midterm elections, they did better than expect and you know
what that made them do is stick with Biden. I think,
you know, when you look back at the history of this,
I think the fact that Biden did better than expected
and Democrats did better than expected in twenty twenty two
made them think, you know, maybe Joe can win us
another four years. And of course at that stage he
(04:19):
was very old. You know, we were to learn later
quite had dottery and old he'd got. And if they'd
have done badly in twenty twenty two, I think there
would have been a grand swell in the Democratic Party.
We need to find a new candidate. We need to
find a better candidate than Joe Biden. There would have
been a primary system. Carmla Harris would have had to
compete with other Democrats who might have had a better
claim and might have been better candidates.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
And yeah, well, actually that's why I wanted to ask,
was Obama actually right because he was one of the
few who said just hold on here, let's think about
it and maybe have a vote. Was Harris a mistake?
Could they have found somebody that would have made a difference,
ordered Biden and bury them.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, here's my take on that, Mike I. Obama wasn't
the only one. Nancy Pelosi as well. She wanted some
kind of speedy, little kind of mini primary. When Joe
Biden finally decided to release that white knuckle grip on
the torch, you know, he really wanted to run again,
didn't he. And this was part of the problem. He
loved being president. He thought he could win the rust Belt.
He thought he's did a better chance than Kamala Harris,
(05:20):
which is one of the reasons why he stayed on
for so long.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
But yeah, I mean, it's going to be one of
the big what ifs.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
The problem Mike with trying to find another candidate was
you risk splitting the Democratic Party and you risked annoying
the most loyal constituency of all, which is African American women.
There were senior Black Democrats like Jim Clive and a
very influential congressman in South Carolina. As you know, he's
(05:47):
part of the reason why Biden's the president. Now, they
were saying, if it's not Joe, it's got to be Karmela.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
There were other people saying that too.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
If they'd have had that kind of process and ended
up with a candidate I don't know, like Gretchen Whitner,
who's shown that she can win the ross belt state
of Michigan not just once but twice, or something like
Gavin you some the California governor. Maybe they would have
stood a better chance. But in finding that better candidate,
they risked splitting the Democratic Party into.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Look your scenes. My view of the Trump campaign this
time around was it was more professional, more slick, better organized.
Was that your view? And does that get reflected in
a second term or not?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Look, there's all these great stories about the divisions within
the Trump campaign between a campaign who really just wanted
to focus on the economy literally asked that Reagan question,
are you better off four years ago than you were?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Are you better off now than you were four years ago?
The answer of which is obviously.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
No, And that the campaign high command then going a
bit crazy when Trump did the weave as he called it,
when he starts talking about how of a lecta, all
the crazy stuff. But yeah, they I think at the
top they had, you know, two real pros running things,
no question about it. I mean, the Democrats thought they
had his financial advances, that the Democrats thought they had
(07:03):
this organizational advantage, and they have a very good grand game.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
They good at getting votes.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Out but yeah, I mean, you know Trump's I mean
that the whole we've kind of worked for him, didn't it.
I mean, talking about the economy, talking about immigration, all
the other kind of stuff and the crazy stuff, and
that we've wasn't sufficiently off putting to voters to put
them off.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So he's going to drill for oil. So he can
do that, and that's easy. And the if you look
at the markets this morning, they've responded favorably. Ken he
fix the war? Kenny salt putin? Can he solve the
Middle East? Does he get to do any of that
or not?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Good?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Wow, it's just to go into this world. It's just
also mind blowing, isn't it in many ways? You know,
let's boil that down. What can he do straight away? Well,
one thing we think he'll do is obviously impose far
more tariffs, and that would intensify the trade board with China.
I mean, you know, it's interesting the markets have reacted
(08:00):
this way, perhaps so just happy about the certainty of
the moment, perhaps so reflecting the kind of impact on
sort of energy companies who are going to be able
to drill now with that kind of environmental regulations that.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Have visits in the past, but there is a sense
if there is a.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Trade or it won't only kind of inflate prices in America,
which could increase interest rates. That could lead to a
sific global downturn. I mean, I live in Australia. There's
been some modeling here that suggests it's going to dip
GDP by one point two percent if there is a
deepening of the trade or so that that'll be a concern. Yeah, environmentally,
you know, he'll pull out of Paris again, as he did.
(08:34):
I was with him the last time he pulled out
of Paris. You know, it's so hot that day in
the brose Garden Mic that our phone stopped working. You
know when you get that temperature thing on your phone.
If anything symbolized what was at stake and the discrepancy
between what was coming out of the President's maath, it
was my phone not working.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
My computer would work. I've never had that before. My
laptop would not operate because it was so hot.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
But he'll pull out of He'll pull out of Paris. Obviously,
that has massive ravigations around the world. When you know
the world's you know, most powerful country and its second
biggest Polluta pulls out of a global climate change agreement
like that, Yeah, we're we're back in trump Land again.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, exactly does he? And I'm sort of pontificating here,
does he set the table for the Republicans in twenty
eight or in other words, the Republicans and JD Vans,
whether it's him or not, can can go and propel
themselves into fore slash eight years? Or is he so
unique that it ends in twenty eight?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
No? I think Trump isn't needs Trump. I mean, you
know that's been proven over and over again.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
You know when when trump Bean candidates stand up often,
you know they just don't do particularly well because they
haven't got this magnetism that he's got. They haven't got
the sort of Chrisman that he's got, they haven't got
this sort of personal cult following that he's got.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I do think Trump isn't needs Trump.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
The other thing I'd say, looking forward by is what
we've seen here is something quite new in American politics
in recent times, which is, you know, you've had one
term of Trump followed by one term Biden followed by
another Trump. You know, you don't generally get consecutive one
term presidencies.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
You generally get. You know, the pattern.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
More recently has been, you know, Clinton not two terms,
Bush got two terms, Obama got two terms. Now you
have had one Trump, one Biden one Trump.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So what I'm saying is there's a big mood of
anti incumbency. And this is a global thing, right, This
isn't just in America. There's rage out there. It's inflation driven,
its economy driven. And a lot of governments aren't sticking
around for long.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
You look at Britain, it's got a new government, and
the new government is already hated. It's only been there
about five months. You know, the politics at the moment
of the world are very feebra.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Where do you, Rickham, as you and I will gather
in thirty years time when we're seriously old, mean and
we'll look back, We'll look back on what Trump was,
what he is and what he was about. Where where
do you reckon he sits? How remarkable is hell?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Look, my argument in the book The Forever War is
that Trump is as much a product of American history
as Abraham Lincoln, as John F. Kennedy, as Ronald Reagan,
as Joe Biden or a Barack Obama. It's just the
history that we tend to forget, overlook and sometimes conceal.
And it's a history, Mike that often contradicts the grand
(11:21):
narrative that a lot of people like to buy into
that America is this story of progress, that America's history
of advancement. You know, you get Barack Obama, the first
African American president, so you're going to get the first
female president, Hillary Clinton. Now that didn't happen in twoenty
and sixteen, as both of us know, and there was
this feeling, well, if America is going to progress, it's
going to have a black female president. You know, history
(11:42):
doesn't work like that. American history doesn't work like that.
Trump taps into a kind of native isn't That's always
been there. There's always been a strong men.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Have always done well.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
The week tend to get discarded, which is why Joe
Biden didn't stand any chance of getting re election. You know,
Conspiratorialism has always been part of the American story.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
You know, it's the.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
American story that people kind of like to turn away from,
they want to avert their gaze from.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
But it's a history that makes sense of Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Amazing all right mate, Always a pleasure catch up soon.
Appreciate it very much. Nick Bryant, who's with us out
of Australia this morning.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
For more from the mic Asking Breakfast listen live to
news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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