Oliver Hartwich: NZ Initiative Executive Director on David Seymour's call to limit the number of government ministers

David Seymour's calling for fat to be cut from multiple areas of government. 

The Act Party leader wants a limit on the number of ministers – with no ministers outside of Cabinet, and no associate ministers other than in Finance. 

He wants 30 total government agencies, down from 41. 

Executive Director of business think tank New Zealand Initiative, Oliver Hartwich told Mike Hosking the current model doesn't make sense. 

He says there's a Minister of Housing but also a Minister of Building and Construction, as if they have nothing to do with each other. 

Hartwich also says the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is a prime example of a bloated cabinet. 

He says there are 16 ministers in charge of MBIE, and Ireland has 15 in its entire cabinet. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Seymour idea to slash cabinet and government departments is
the government's third best idea of the week. I think
too many departments, too many portfolios, an awful lot of
meaningless titles, eighty two ministerial portfolios, twenty eight ministers, forty
one separate government departments. Now, the New Zealand Initiative Executive
Director Oliver Hartwitch is with us on this very good
morning to you.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Good morning Mike.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Seeing from your work you tell us that MB report
to nineteen different ministers. How mad is that? They must
know that's mad, mustn't they?

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Of course, I mean it's completely mad. We have more ministers,
of course in charge of MB than Ireland has in
its entire cabinets. So we can see the magistrate there.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
In looking at Ireland or Norway, do we want to
improve or is this just comfortable to run a whole
lot of people, give them a whole lot of jobs
and you can appease a whole lot of egos.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
No, we want to be more like Norway. We want
to be more like Ireland or indeed many other countries
around the world. In fact, I don't know any country,
maybe Australia that runs its government. Like New Zealand, we
have really created something special here, but it doesn't work
when you look at Norway, for example, you have one
minister for one government department in charge of one minister

(01:07):
at portfolio and it works. In New Zealand. Of course
we split all sorts of things just for the sake
of actually creating some portfolios, keeping some politicians happy, making
sure the coalition partner is happy. But the result of
that is something that doesn't make sense. For example, we
have a Minister of Housing, but we also have a
Minister of Building and Construction. These are two different people,

(01:28):
as if these two issues wouldn't have anything to do
with each other. Or if you're serving in the armed forces,
your minister Sturis Collins as a defense minister. Once you
retire from the armed forces, your minister is Chris pank
because that's veterans' affairs. And so we split all these
different things into micro portfolios to the point doesn't make
any sense. And finally, the current governments of course created

(01:48):
more portfolios in the reshuffle we had earlier this year.
So now we have an economic growth portfolio put yourself
by the Minister of Finance whose responsibility economic growth force
in the first place, so it doesn't makes sense.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Anything to do with MMP. In other words, because of
the electoral system, we need more people.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
A little bit to do with MMP, because of course
nowadays we have a lot of coalition negotiations and it
makes it just an attractive option to create more micro
portfolios to keep the coalition partner happy. But then again,
if you go through the history, you can see that
the trend towards more ministery or portfolios started before we
even got MMP.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Here's your real problem though, not only a number of portfolios,
but talent. The more portfolios you have, the more people involve,
the more people involved, you're stretching your talent, Paul, aren't
you exactly?

Speaker 2 (02:33):
And I think actually you shouldn't need more than fifteen,
maybe twenty minutesters. I've heard Ruth Richardson actually recently saying
she thinks he could do with twelve, and I think
she's got a point. Currently we've got under thirty, and
I think that's way too many.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Good on you, Oliver, and you have a good week.
You appreciate it. Oliver Heartwood Jaener The New Zealand Initiative
as I said at the start of the show, if
Seymour can pull this off, he's about to become Deputy
Prime Minister. I don't know that necessarily means anything, but
if he can pull this off, he deserves a medal,
if not beatification. For more from The Mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to News Talks at B from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.