Oliver Hartwich: NZ Initiative Executive Director on the new Ministry of Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport

Critics aren't convinced the Government's new mega-Ministry will work.  

It's merging the environment, housing and urban development, and transport ministries into a new Ministry of Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport.  

Right-wing think tank NZ Initiative executive director Oliver Hartwich says it will still report to the same number of ministers. 

He told Heather du Plessis-Allan having it fully operational in six months is also ambitious.  

Hartwich says the ministries are busy with RMA reforms, which are taking up all their resources.  

He says putting a super merger on top of that could be asking too much. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So we've got a new mega merger in the public service.
The ministries of Environment, Transport, Housing, urban Development and then
the local government functions of internal affairs will all come
together in the new m SERT, which is the Ministry
of Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport. Oliver Hartwich is the
New Zealand Initiative Executive Director and with us Morning Oliver.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good and Morning Heather is bringing them.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
All together is the aim as obviously to get them
to work together. But will that necessarily work.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
We'll find out. I mean, the whole things showed to
operational in a half a year's time, so that's quite
ambitious in itself. I mean, to start with, I think
some mergers make sense because we have forty three government
departments and ministries in this country, which is a ridiculous number.
We also have eighty one ministry or portfolios, which again
is a totally ridiculous number. So some consolidation makes good sense.

(00:49):
And still I'm not entirely sure whether this current merger
in front of us actually will work.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, why, okay, give me the reasons, because I've got
some of my own. But give me the reasons why
you think it might not work well?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
The first thing is timing, because the ministries in question
are currently super busy because we are getting through the
IMA reforms and that will take all of their resources. Now,
putting a super merger on top of that, I think
maybe asking too much of the ministries. But the real
problem I see is actually we're creating another government ministry
a bit like MB. MB reports to twenty one ministers

(01:22):
at the present time. I mean in Ireland they only
have fifteen ministers in cabinet. We have more ministers reporting
to MB or the other way around. Quite so sure
then Ireland has in its entire cabinet and it will
be the same with MSERT. So MSERT now unites all
of these various functions. That makes perhaps some good sense,
But in the end we will still have the same

(01:43):
ministers now in charge of individual portfolios. So it's not
as if MSERT will in the end report to just
a single minister, but there will be various ministers that
EMSER deals with. And I'm not sure whether that's the
right structure right.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
So you just changing the location, but the problems continue.
Is it also not possible, Oliver, that you can have
an organization, the final organization that is so enormous and
so just it's just so mind blowingly big that it
doesn't actually matter whether they're in the same building or
in multiple buildings. They're not going to know that. It's
not going to break down the silos.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
No, and that's the problem really with MB. I mean,
MB is currently I don't know, six or seven thousand employees,
and at that stage it's of course an organization that's
simply too big to function properly. So I think actually
it would be better to have a more coherent approach
to government consolidation. As I said, forty three government departments
and ministries, that's too many. We should certainly consolidate, but

(02:37):
maybe do it in a more systematic way. Consolidate them
all at once, then make sure that you also have
a principle of one minister in charge of one department
and not the eighty one portfolios we currently have, and
then you might have a solution in the end. But
probably also try not to do this while you're doing
massive reforms and in an election years, so timing wise,
I'm a bit skeptical.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, Oliver, thanks for Oh by the way, can I
just ask you really quickly we're talking to Nicola Allus
after seven thoughts on the surplus being pushed out meat again.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Not a great surprise. I mean, after the economic term
development we've seen over the past few months, everybody was
kind of expecting it. But yeah, I mean we have
to get to surplus rather sooner than later.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, I agree. Okay, Oliver, Thanks so much. Oliver Hart,
which the New Zealand Initiative executive directed.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
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