Full Show Podcast: 09 March 2025

On The Resident Builder with Pete Wolfkamp Full Show Podcast for 9th March 2025, Pete discusses what goes into building costs and why deposits are sometimes required, explains roofing maintenance and property longevity, and answers questions about drainage and stormwater.

Reon Materoa from RSM Construction in Blenheim discusses his experience with the JNL J Frame, and Dr. David Welch from the University of Auckland tackles Pete's queries about hearing protection.

Ruud Kleinpaste shares advice on growing fruits, curling leaves, and preventing rootstocks or other nasties from going everywhere.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Resident Builder podcast with Peter Wolfcamp
from news Talks at by Meta twice God once, but
maybe call Pete first. Peter wolf Camp, The Resident Builder
News Talk said by.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
The House Sizzoro, even when it's dark, even when the
grass is overgrown in.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
The yard, even when the dog is too old to bar,
and when you're sitting at the table trying not to
start scissor.

Speaker 4 (00:43):
Home, even when we are benn.

Speaker 5 (00:48):
Even when you're there.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
House sizzor Home, even when those ghost when you go
around from the ones you love, your move scream, bolting pains,
appeel in front of the world.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
Locals vestible when they're gone, leaving them, even when we'll
be even when you're in there alone.

Speaker 5 (01:39):
Well, very very good morning, and welcome along to the
Resident Builder on Sunday. You're with me Pete wolf Camp,
the Resident Builder, and we are here to talk about building. Surprise, surprise.
We are going to talk about all of the myriad
elements involved in building and construction, whether that's the planning,
the thinking, or the doing, the actual hands on or

(02:01):
the legislative framework that allows us to build. In fact,
I just of open emails and I've been having sort
of an ongoing discussion with a gentleman who emailed the
other day saying, hey, look, I think that you can
actually change the size of windows under Schedule one of
the Building Act. I'm disagreeing, and so anyway, that's an
ongoing sort of intellectual I guess it is theoretical discussion

(02:26):
around what's included and Schedule one of the Building Act
in terms of work that you could do without necessarily
requiring it consent. So we can talk about that sort
of side of things, the legislation, the rules and regulations,
how you stay on the right side of compliance, because
certainly when you stray off that, it becomes it's just

(02:48):
murky territory. It's a quagmire out there. If you stay
on the path, it's all good. If you wander off,
it'll take you places you don't want to go, and
it'll take you a long time to get back to
the path. In fact, during the course of the week,
just by the Bye, I was reading through a LIMB
report for a property, and the main reason that I
read through them is that I'm looking for information about

(03:11):
building consents that were issued and whether or not they've
been signed off and have been issued a code Compliance
Certificate at the end of it. And typically for all
of the ones that I've read, and it would be
a reasonable number nowadays, it will talk about a building consent,
it'll give a rough description of the work, extension, alterations,

(03:31):
new garage, et cetera, et cetera, and then it will
say either CCC issued or no CCC issued. And the
other day I read one that said CCC declined and
it was note ten and it talked about determinations which
are either with the Building Content Authority, the BCA, or
with the Ministry of Housing and Construction which has now

(03:54):
gone it's all part of mb now And I was like, well,
that's really intriguing. So somewhere along the line Council have
refused to issue ACCC as a result of a determination,
so obviously there was an argument there. That's what I'm
saying about the legislation. Or we can get into the
practical stuff. What do you choose, what do you need,
what do you use and when do you use it?

(04:15):
And also in terms of tradespeople and contracting and getting
the right people to do the right job at the
right time and for the right price. We can talk
about all of these sorts of things. So if you've
got a project that you're undertaking, perhaps you've got a
project that you're thinking about doing in the some stage

(04:36):
in the future, or perhaps you've got a project that
you've got stuck into and it's not quite going the
way that you thought it would go. Well, all of
these things within building, construction, renovating, altering. Maybe you're looking
to make a really good house and you want to
know how to go about that. We can talk about
all these things on the program this morning. So eight

(04:56):
hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call. The
texts are up and running. It's nine two nine two
is zbzb from your mobile phone. And if you'd like
to see anym well, you are more than welcome. It's
Pete at newstooks headb dot co dot nz. So like
Gary has taken the opportunity to email, if you'd like
to email, like I say, it's Pete at newstooks headb

(05:17):
dot co dot en zaid, now I trust you've had
a good week. Suddenly I don't know whether it's just me,
but suddenly we've gone from summer. Gosh, I'm leaving the
windows open at night, hoping that it's not going to
be twenty five degrees in the bedroom at night. That
sort of thing too. I was doing some stuff in
the kitchen, thinking, oh, I'm just going to close the window.
It's got a bit chilly. All of a sudden, I

(05:38):
came into the city yesterday to do a little session
with Tim Beveridge and Anna Burns Francis on the radio,
and suddenly there's leaves on the you know, all the
big plane trees around the edge of Victoria Park. The
wind's blowing, it's dropping the leaves. Suddenly it's autumnal out there,
which is lovely into I mean, I think the weather's fantastic.
I'd love to have a little more rain, but it's beautiful.

(06:00):
But also it sort of signals that time where if
you've thought like I have right, I've got these jobs,
I'm going to get them done over summer, suddenly you're thinking,
I don't have that many days left, right, the weather's
going to turn, it's going to get cold. Maybe I
can't start as earlier, I can't paint as late in
the day. So if there's some projects that you want
to get out of the way before autumn really kicks

(06:24):
in and before winter sets in we can talk about
those as well, but right now the opportunity is all yours.
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number to call.
We're going to chat to a builder a little bit
later on about using jaframe, which is really cool. Also,
I have had the opportunity of having a fairly lengthy discussion,

(06:44):
thankfully with Professor David Welch Welsh rather, who is a
professor of audiology at the Auckland University, so essentially a
scientist who spent his life looking at audiology, hearing and
in particular hearing loss. It's a little bit, I'll be
really honest, it's a bit of a crusade for me,

(07:06):
and it took me a while to find someone who
could speak really honestly around hearing loss and the need
for hearing protection. So I've had that discussion with him.
He's going to join us just after eight o'clock this morning,
after eight to thirty. Of course, we're into the garden
with the delightful and effervescent red cline Pass, doctor ridclin

(07:28):
Pass after eight thirty this morning, talking gardening and all
things entomololgical. So looking forward to that as well, but
right now it's your opportunity. What's on your mind? What
would you like to talk about? What concerns you? Troubles
you keeps you awake at night when it comes to
building and construction. Oh, eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
is the number to call. And a very good morning

(07:50):
to you, Lisa.

Speaker 6 (07:51):
How are you paying?

Speaker 5 (07:52):
Yeah, I'm very well in yourself.

Speaker 6 (07:54):
Good thank you.

Speaker 7 (07:56):
Hi.

Speaker 8 (07:56):
Am.

Speaker 9 (07:56):
So I've got a bit of an interesting one for you.
About eleven years ago, I purchased a house, you know,
like one of those I said a pronounce.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
For being leaky buildings.

Speaker 9 (08:10):
But I got a building report done on it and
it was perfectly sound at the time, and had my
lawyer chip this title and the real estate agent.

Speaker 6 (08:20):
You know, the.

Speaker 9 (08:22):
The checked it out thoroughly as well. And when I
went to sell it three years later, the agent pulled
a limb and it had no cc on it that
anyone everyone had overlooked and fluted myself because I didn't
pull a limb when.

Speaker 8 (08:40):
I purchased it.

Speaker 9 (08:41):
So got on breakfast. So looking into looking into you know,
the whole situation further. What happened was it built on
in a sheared driveway, where I don't own the driveway.
I've just got legal access to the driveway, and the

(09:03):
same building company, A One Builders, built two houses on
that driveway and the only thing that wasn't signed off
on my property were the piles that wanted piles.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
That have not shifted.

Speaker 9 (09:18):
It's fully healthy homes Compliant had had the piles have
not shifted, And as far as the council is concerned,
I has to. It has to be apt to building
code of today, not you know, the odd years ago when.

Speaker 10 (09:37):
It was built.

Speaker 9 (09:38):
So I get that, but I'm just a little bit
perplexed because I ended up beinging in touch with the
solicitor who did a big project was towering houses at
the crossing that were put I don't know if you
heard about that, that there was a big drama, whether

(09:59):
it made the news over and over again. I spoke
to that barrister. His opinion, I receiveral phone walls and
lots of digging around, and either I'm saying, no, it's
not our problem because read the disclaimer on the report
indicators that what I should be doing is just getting

(10:20):
rid of it just to sell us right. So I
am in the process now of renovating that house with
my partner and we're just going to turn it into
a rental. Do you think a that's a good idea?

Speaker 7 (10:35):
Am I?

Speaker 4 (10:36):
Legally?

Speaker 5 (10:37):
Yeah? Well okay, okay, so just excuse me, sorry, craky, Hey, sorry,
I'm just just at the end of that bloody cold
that's been hanging around all week. Peacht it's really good
looked in peacht I'll put that on the list.

Speaker 9 (10:55):
Yeah, lovely.

Speaker 5 (10:56):
I mean, Hindsight's is twenty twenty. But I'm surprised that
something as straightforward as reading the limb when you purchase
the house eleven years ago, and we're not talking the
dark past when these things didn't exist, right, that no
one realized that, hey, building consent such and such never
got sea and I presume that the building consent for

(11:16):
the original work was done. Is the house older than
nineteen ninety one when was the house itself built?

Speaker 9 (11:26):
It is just older than nineteen ninety one and everything
out of the building.

Speaker 5 (11:33):
The reason that that's really really important is that around
ninety ninety one is when the Building Act changed and
we had the introduction of essentially a different framework. We
went from building permits to building consents, building consents require
a CCC to be issued to complete them. Building permits don't, right,

(11:54):
So it just wasn't part of the legislation, So you
can't be expected to get a CCC for something that
had a building permit. So I just wonder whether, and
I'm sure sure your lawyers have already checked this, but
you'd need to go back and look at the detail
and go did this building get a building permit or

(12:14):
did it get a building consent? Is it pre nineteen
ninety one or post nineteen ninety one, in which case
it's irrelevant. Right, Well, it's highly relevant because you don't
need one. So but let's say it's post nineteen ninety
one and there is a building consent that never got

(12:34):
its CCC, and you're now trying to get the CCC.
That is going to be a reasonably challenging process, right
So if but at the same time, if what you've
done is identify the fact that the only thing that
was not signed off was the house piles, you could
potentially have a building survey or an engineer come do

(12:54):
an investigation, determine that it's compliant, and then that would
give you a pathway to two compliance and then the
other thing that you know, it's a really interesting one
and I haven't dug down to the bottom of this yet,
but there someone sent me a ruling from the district

(13:15):
court about a year ago where a landlord had a
property that they were renting obviously that didn't have a CCC.
The tenant took them to the tenancy tribunal to say,
you're not supposed to rent a property. If you've got

(13:36):
a house that you're renting and it's had work that
required a CCC and you don't have one, you shouldn't
be renting that house out.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Now.

Speaker 5 (13:44):
I think this has got quite wide ranging impacts, right
because I respect but I've seen the ruling from the
district court. I think it was actually in told wrong.
So you know, in terms of you saying, well, look,
we're just going to renovate it and rent it out,
that might not be that straightforward either.

Speaker 9 (14:04):
Because it's really the story does have a bit more
to it and both ends of the house needs to
be reclared because of water proofing issues.

Speaker 5 (14:15):
Okay, well that requires a building consumer.

Speaker 6 (14:18):
Yeah, d and I never got one.

Speaker 5 (14:20):
I did lights a lot, okay, right, you've got a load. Anyway,
It's not going to be simple. And look when we
talk about sail and purchase and having a CCC and not,
you can sell a building without a CCC right. So
there's as a as an individual, I know, for developers

(14:45):
or people in the trade. If you've built a house
and you want to sell it. So if I'm if
I do a speaky right as a as a licensed
building practitioner, I can't sell it without a CCC because
that's a requirement. If I'm a homeowner like you and
I do some work on the property and I didn't
get it, I didn't get it signed off or whatever,
I can still sell the house without a CCC. But

(15:07):
people will take that as a reason to beat you
down on price. Basically is how I'd say.

Speaker 9 (15:12):
Yeah, and that number and as total on a market
is about two hundred thousand dollars less basically land value.

Speaker 5 (15:25):
Essentially the house becomes a liability and you're just selling
the land. Yeah, And part of that is someone it's
an opportunity for someone else to go through the compliance pathway,
take the risk and get the capital gain on that,
or you decide that you're going to do it yourself
and spend time and effort and probably a reasonable amount

(15:49):
of money getting the building compliant in order to keep
your value and the property. Yeah, but you know it
in there is that intrigue around what date was the
actual construction? When was the Huntrey five? Okay, then you're
well within the criteria. It needs a CCCS. You take

(16:14):
care all the best. Then eight hundred eighty ten eighty
is the number to call. We can talk legislation, we
can talk the practical stuff as well. If you've got
a project on that you would like to talk about,
call us now. Oh, eight hundred eighty ten eighty is
that number to call. Got some interviews lined up for
a little bit later on the show, so now it's
a perfect time to call, and a couple of great
texts as well. I'm going to have to think about

(16:36):
this for a moment, morning, Pete. In the current economic climate,
what would you expect to play as an hourly rate
for a tradesman carpenter. I'm not asking what you think
they're worth. I mean, in good times they're all worth
a million dollars an hour. So when times aren't good,
what would be realistic? And then they put out a number,

(16:56):
We'll come back and look at that straight after the.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Break doing other house storting the garden, asked Pete for
a hand. It's a resident builder with Peter Wolfcap call
eight hundred newstalks.

Speaker 5 (17:07):
The'd be, Yeah, your news talks, they'd be. The lines
are open. The number to call eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty twenty six minutes, almost twenty seven minutes after
six give us a call because we've got some spare
lines and it's it's going to get a little bit
busy later in the show. So just before the break,
this text came through morning Peak. In the current economic climate,

(17:29):
what would you expect to pay hourly for a tradesman carpenter?
I'm not asking what you think that they're worth, And
then he goes on to explain, I mean, in good times,
they're all worth a million dollars an hour. So when
times aren't good, what would be a realistic rate dot
dot dot thirty five dollars an hour. No, I mean, look,

(17:50):
I'm sort of there's so many variables right with this,
But my experience at the moment is typically like, even
if I'm running a job and I'm getting guys in
to do the work for me or with me, then
you know, I mean, you charge out rates for someone

(18:13):
who is self employed. So if you're ringing up and
you're saying to an LBP trades person, so I qualified
trades person, Hey, look, I need you to come around
and we're going to knock the deck down and rebuild it. Right,
So they're going to turn up. They are LBP, they've
got all the year, they're going to work in accordance

(18:34):
with the legislation. They're self employed. Maybe they bring with
them one other person. I mean, you've got to be
talking sixty seventy dollars an hour for the lead trades person,
and they're probably going to charge out there, let's say,
young fella at I don't know forty five fifty bucks
an how they might be paying them twenty five thirty.

(18:57):
It just it's so variable at the moment. And then
I mean, I think I made this comment actually last
week or the week before, and people piled in on
the texts in terms of you know, when times are tight,
do you do the consumers expect that hourly rates will drop.
The really challenging thing from that, from the other side

(19:18):
of it as a tradesperson, as a business owner, is
that in many cases, your costs don't drop right. You're
still paying your accountant, you're still paying your subscriptions, you've
still got your insurance to cover. It's still at your
vehicle insurance to cover. You've still got the replacement of
tools and equipment, you've still got your LVP rates to pay,
and all the rest of it. So I guess in

(19:39):
good times you can. And scarcity we're talking about it yesterday.
You know, in scarcity, obviously rates there's pressure on rates,
and rates tend to go up, and when times are
right now, it's not that busy to be fair, so
we'd expect rates to go down. But I mean thirty
five bucks an hour. If I was in that situation,

(20:00):
if I was ringing and I was looking for someone
who essentially was going to control the job, who was
fully qualified, I know that wouldn't cut it. If I
was running a gang of guys and I was looking
for let's say, labor only carpenters, that all I required
of them is that they rock up every morning at
seven point thirty and they work till five. They've got

(20:21):
their basic kit, they don't have to run the job,
they don't have to supervise anything. Then maybe those rates
still seems a little bit like to be fair. Certainly
a couple of years ago, you'd struggle to find someone
to come and work for you labor only if that
was the rates you were paying. But look, in the end,
all of these things are up for negotiation, right, And

(20:43):
I've always thought too, there's a bit of a difference
between let's say, getting someone to come for a relatively
short job. This has always been the argument as to
why rates for plumbers and electricians and so on are higher.
Sometimes it's around qualification. Sometimes it's around the fact that
they are not spending a long time on a job.

(21:04):
Whereas you know, if you're doing an extens to your
house and you've got an hourly rate for your carpenter,
they might be there for four months, right, So for
that person every day every week for four months, I
know I've got work. So you go, okay, well, maybe
I can shave an hour or two off my hourly
rate because I know that I'm getting paid for forty

(21:27):
forty five, maybe even fifty hours a week for the
next six weeks or eight weeks, ten weeks, twelve weeks,
whatever it's going to be. That's how I've always run it. Oh,
eight hundred and eighty ten eighty Another quick one. Actually,
this is a really interesting one. I got schooled on
this a little while ago as well. What size deposit
should I give on a twenty nine thousand dollars roofing job?

(21:48):
Very good question. I have been fairly critical around and
cautious around tradespeople builders in particular asking for large deposits
on jobs, whether it's a small job or a large job,
particularly in that media size thing. So again, let's go
back to the deck thing. So you've got a deck

(22:10):
that you need rebuilding. It's worth about twenty five thousand dollars.
And the builder says, yeah, I can start next week,
but I need a twelve and a half thousand dollars
deposit on a twenty five thousand dollar job. I would
be suspicious of that, right, I can't see any reason. Well,
I can see a number of reasons why they might
want a deposit like that. None of them are particularly good,

(22:31):
to be blunt, And this came up when I was
doing a panel discussion, and I said, look, I'm really
suspicious of sort of hefty deposits for trades people. And
a roofer rang up and said, okay, let me tell
you the way that it goes with roofing. So I've
got a project at the moment where I'm going to
need to do a reroof on behalf of the client.

(22:52):
So if I contact a roofer and say can you
give me a price on that, they come back. Let's
pick a figure out of the air, twenty grand. It
won't be twenty grand, it'll be more than that. But
let's say it's twenty grand, and I go, okay, that's reasonable.
You're a good trades person, right, what's the chances are
there going to say ten grand? And the reason that
they will, and this is what the ruf HA said
to me, is that as soon as the job's accept it.

(23:14):
So let's say I'm the client, rufer comes, I've chosen
color and profile and a date, and so that rufer
then goes to the manufacturer, the person who's actually going
to run the iron, and places the order. Now let's
say I decide Shivers actually works not looking that great,
I'm not too sure about spending twenty k. I'm going
to ring them in two or three weeks time and

(23:36):
just go, look, I'm really sorry, but I'm going to
have to cancel the job. Where I'm going to have
to do that, at which time the roof is already
put in an order for the materials, which is a
significant probably more than half of the cost of the
job to the manufacturer. The manufacturer is still going to
want to get paid. So in that situation, RUF is

(23:57):
in particular, I fully understand a significant deposit given that
that's the process, right, you know more than that, And
I think you'd want to see materials on site and
google dodgy builders and what you'll see a typical motors
app operandi. Let's say for dodgy builders, dodgey trades. People

(24:19):
rock up, big story, big deposit, and then you never
see them again, or they come and do lousy work
and that sort of thing. There's a couple of concrete
contractors that are always in the news doing exactly that.
So I think it is independent or it's dependent on
what trade you've got and what the nature of the
job is. But I don't think big jobs, but roofing,

(24:40):
I completely understand why they would ask for a significant
deposit prior to the work being done for those reasons. Right,
Very good morning to you, Sela Celia.

Speaker 11 (24:50):
Hello, So, look we've got a MDF desktop. That's gott yes,
but you know water damage I guess is look for
the bubbly and we're just wondering what's the best way
to deal with that. We want to repaint it.

Speaker 5 (25:07):
You're going to paint it. You're not trying to keep
a clear finish on it or something like that. Okay,
To be fair, you've got to be realistic about how
good it's ever going to be. So if it's got
water damage. But okay, but we want to and is
it for is it an md IF core to like

(25:28):
a malamine top or something like that.

Speaker 12 (25:31):
I'm not sure because somebody's painted over it was justly
flat paint. Okay, all right, breasts all through the painting.

Speaker 5 (25:40):
Oh gorgeous sounds better and better.

Speaker 11 (25:43):
It's not a sound and solid so yeah, okay.

Speaker 5 (25:45):
Look, I would probably just hit it as hard as
I can with a sander, ideally a belt sander or
a random orbital quite coarse, like really rip into it
and sand. What what will happen is where you've got
the water damage, it will it's all lumpy and and
so on. So you just want to sand that back

(26:05):
as which as you possibly can. Then I would saturate
the surface with. In fact with MDF, what they recommend
is water born like quick dry so razine quick dry primer. Okay,
that's a that will then bring up that will hold
all of the fibers together.

Speaker 13 (26:25):
A little bit worried about sand.

Speaker 5 (26:26):
That again until you've got a smooth surface, So there
might be a couple of applications of sanding primer. Then
once you've got the surface, and again you've got to
be realistic about what the look that you're going to achieve.
Sand it back hard, primate, sand it again, primate. Once
it's looking reasonably stable and flat, then you can do
your top coat over that. And I if it's going

(26:48):
to be a surface that you're going to use, like
for a work desk or something like that, I would
probably look at using some of the water born enamels
that'll give you just a bit more durable than an acrylic.

Speaker 12 (27:01):
Basically holding those fibers to give were worried about. We're
thinking about putting on the pets as well.

Speaker 5 (27:08):
No, probably limited success with that. I think just send
it back really really hard for seala and then just
use quick dry.

Speaker 13 (27:17):
Already, all the very best to you.

Speaker 5 (27:21):
Take care Sela. By way, there I'm just thinking I've
I've built in some cabinet try shelving in my workshop
at home, and I used actually I used tryboard as
the top as well, like thirty two milfak tryboard from
J and L. And then because I just wanted to

(27:42):
make it a little bit more durable, I ended up
coating it and putting a raisine. It was luster gral,
which is the water borne enamel over the top. And
that's got to be the better part of Shivers seven
eight years ago. And it's to be fair, it's remarkable
how well it's it's held up. So you know, in
this case the tryboard, which has an MDF layer on it,

(28:04):
plus a couple of good thick coats and paint over
the top in a workshop environment's lasted quite well. O.
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number to
call John. Good morning to you.

Speaker 6 (28:15):
Yeah, Hi, Pete, I'm really inmbrerassed in it. But about
your talking about that other lady, Yes up to nineteen
ninety one. Are you saying you don't have to get
a CCC yet?

Speaker 5 (28:28):
Yeah, Look, it's probably slightly more nuanced than that. But
if you look through like if you grab a Limb
report for example, and it's on an older building, nineteen
fifties building, and it might have a building permit was
issued in nineteen fifty for the construction of a one
hundred square meter three bedroom home, and will it will

(28:49):
list the building list, the building permit number, and then
it will note no CCC. And then when you read
the notes further down, it'll say pre nineteen ninety one,
basically CCC's didn't exist, so therefore it doesn't have one.
And so around nineteen ninety one there was a change
to the Building Act. We saw the we went from

(29:11):
building permits to building consents. Building consents typically ended up
requiring a CCC.

Speaker 6 (29:19):
Yeah, I'm aware of that. No, it was just I
think it's a pretty important thing for some people to
know with an older how that you don't need to
get a CP have Yeah, find.

Speaker 5 (29:31):
Out Yeah, and look to be fair, I was a
little bit surprised that Lisa, who purchased the house eleven
years ago, which is not dim dark past, right, that
that wasn't really obvious to whoever was doing the conveyancing.
Hey are you aware that right now? And given the
house was built nineteen ninety five in eleven years ago,

(29:52):
twenty fourteen. We were very well aware of the risks
of certain types of construction that were built around that time.
So again I'm a little bit surprised that nobody picked
it up at the time. But that's called come that
when you're sitting there right now with a building that doesn't.

Speaker 6 (30:09):
When we built a lot of houses in the sixties,
when I was during my time, sure there was that was. Yeah,
you hardly saw a building, and well they knew that
they always turn up at least once, but they knew
who were the good builders and who weren't, and they

(30:30):
focused more of their time on the ones that are
not so good. And those houses will do it another
one hundred years if they were left just the way
they were when we all built them.

Speaker 5 (30:43):
Yeah, I mean, look, and it's hard to argue with
the fact that many of those buildings are tremendously robust,
right relatively simple structures, so you know, not terribly complicated roofs,
nice big eaves to give protection to the joinery, you know,
the critical part of the envelope. Simple cladding. It was

(31:06):
I mean, most of what you would have done in
the nineteen sixties would have been either brick or weatherboards
A correct, Yeah, so you know, not terribly complex buildings,
simple structures designed to endure. I guess the challenge with
them now is that also when you were building in

(31:27):
the nineteen sixties, insulation would have been you wouldn't have
touched a piece of insulation until sometime in the late
nineteen seventies. I'm guessing correct. Yeah, So you know, in
terms of how they perform and how they work in
terms of heating and so on, that's where we've got
challenges with these old buildings. But they're often really good
candidates for a deep retrofit. In fact, a family member

(31:51):
bought one a couple of years ago, stripped out all
of the lining, added insulation, put insulation in the ceilings,
actually pulled out the old timber joinery and used uPVC
inserts that came with double glazing. It's turned into right,
because of the inherent stability or security in the house.

(32:12):
With those modern upgrades, they've ended up with a really,
really good, robust house.

Speaker 6 (32:17):
Yeah, yeah, they would say, because our parents built a
brand new house in nineteen fifty five, right, and living
in the living room on a really windy day, you
could the lino sort of floated a little bit.

Speaker 5 (32:31):
Yeah, that's a good way of describing them, isn't it.

Speaker 6 (32:35):
Yeah, there was no insulation anywhere.

Speaker 5 (32:37):
Yeah, yeah, so and.

Speaker 6 (32:40):
Because the wind went everywhere and they were never wet.
Just so that's that's probably the biggest thing I think.

Speaker 5 (32:46):
You know, I'm in an old villa as well, so
I think the way that we often described these older
houses is drafty but dry. Right, So if the water
did get in, you know, let's say there was a
flashing that wasn't done particularly well, or the scriber had
got a gap around it and water got driven and
behind there, the fact that every time the wind blew
it whistled all the way through the building just allowed

(33:08):
them to dry out. And without oversimplifying it, it's probably
true to say that one of the issues we had
during the leaky building crisis where we had direct fixed
fiber cements straight onto the studs, is that once the
water got through the fiber cement, it got trapped in
there between the building wrap and the and the timber

(33:28):
framing couldn't dry out, no airflow through it, and so
decay sets.

Speaker 6 (33:33):
Them and the other in. Yeah, we built a lot
of woolsheds as well right, and of course they were
built with feet and I drive fast them every so
often and they're as good as the day that we
built them.

Speaker 5 (33:49):
Oh yeah, And again, look that's that thing. If you've
got something, if it's untreated timber, if it's exposed to
the elements. But every time, you know, inevitably, if it rains,
you've got sun the next day, right, so it dries
out and that's what stops their timber structures rotting. Basically,
nice to reminisce with you, John, Thank you very much
for that. Oh, eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the

(34:10):
number to call, coming up sixteen minutes away from seven.
If you've got a question of a building nature, give
us a call right now, Oh, eight hundred eighty ten eighty.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Whether you're paty with ceiling, fixing with fens, or wondering
how to fix that hole in the wall, give feedl
Wolf Gaffer call on eight hundred eighty ten eighty, the
resident builder on News Dog ZB.

Speaker 5 (34:29):
Yeah, when News Talk SB, we've got a time for
some calls. Absolutely, eight hundred eighty ten eighty is that
number to call. Now's a really good time to call. Actually,
eight hundred eighty ten eighty then number to call. A
couple of other texts with regard to deposits. It's obviously
I'll be happy to take some calls on this. So
the initial text would be was about what size deposit

(34:51):
should I give it a twenty nine thousand dollars roofing job. Look,
I think if you've done your due diligence, you think
that you've got a good contractor who's reliable. Ideally, if
you're talking roofing, you've got someone who's a member of
the Roofing Association, because that'll give you some protection if
things don't go well and you're due to start, there's

(35:14):
a reasonable timeline. That's the other thing with deposits, you know,
I don't think it's a great idea to give to
set down a deposit for a job that might start
in six months time. There's always a counter to these things.
A couple of years back, when things were really really busy,
I know a building contractor who is very very good,

(35:36):
does outstanding work and is in high demand, and so
people were coming to him and his firm going hey,
we've got this big renovation, we'd like you to do it,
and he'd go, well, look I'm not free or my
guys aren't free for seven or eight months, will you wait?
And the person say, yeah, that'll be fine, that'll be fine,
And so he'd put it in the diary for seven

(35:56):
eight months in the future, and then possibly things change
and the person would go, oh, no, look, I'm not
going to go ahead with it. So when things were
really but he would take a deposit as a sign
of good faith that the person wanted to go ahead,
and he would guarantee that he could start in seven
or eight months time, which is really really interesting. Now,

(36:20):
what's different about that is that that deposit would go
into a trust account with the lawyers. It was completely transparent.
It didn't go into And this is the concern that
people are often asking for deposits because they owe somebody
else money. They're going to take your money and pay
somebody out their bills to somebody else. That's the concern
around the deposits. So timing is everything and another here's

(36:44):
the text and response to this. This is good Pete.
As a painting contractor, I think asking for a deposit
is a two way relationship. Yes, there are materials, et
cetera to purchase, but I also think it's a test
to see whether the money's available. I generally ask for
anywhere between thirty three and forty percent, depending on the
material content. I'd also say that twenty twenty five years

(37:05):
ago Aldham asks for one. Now I wouldn't start a
job worth more than one thousand dollars without one from Jason.
Thanks very much for your text, Jackson, I completely understand
that point of view. I w eight hundred eighty ten eighty,
will short break, then we'll talked to Mike if you'd
like to join us. I eight hundred eighty ten eighty
the number squeaky door or squeaky floor.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
Get the right advice from Peter Wolfcare, the resident builder
on news Talks MB.

Speaker 5 (37:32):
Intriguing discussions, and undoubtedly be a few more texts on
this around. You know, deposits and so on and again,
you know reliable trades people, trustworthy trades people and businesses. No,
I mean kitchen manufacturers, for example, fifty percent deposit before
they start making the kitchen. That's not unreasonable, I don't think.

(37:52):
And certainly when I had the last couple of kitchens done,
that's fine. You know I'll pay that. And here's another
quick text just before we go to Mike Pete. Having
a good relationship with the local services is really important.
So recent reroof and spouting fifty three thousand dollars job,
no deposit report required, paid the full invoice of the

(38:13):
day it turned up later on. Needed a small job done,
usually a two week wait. They were there that afternoon.
Look one hundred percent, Nick, I thoroughly agree with you.
And the best way to get a good relationship with
your trade is if they've done the job, and let's
say they put on their invoice paying seven days or
fourteen days. If you've got the money paid the next day,

(38:34):
you know that's the way to build up a good relationship.
One hundred percent agree with you, Nick, Thank you, Mike,
Good morning.

Speaker 7 (38:41):
Good morning.

Speaker 14 (38:42):
Got a nineteen fifty house with plaster board ceilings.

Speaker 5 (38:48):
Plaster or fibrous plasters.

Speaker 7 (38:51):
Fibrous plaster, yep, yep.

Speaker 14 (38:54):
And I was talking to a guy that made them
one day at one more and he said, he said,
ye're only good for about fifty years.

Speaker 7 (38:59):
Thanks mate.

Speaker 5 (39:01):
Anyway, Yeah, yes, sir.

Speaker 15 (39:04):
And the way I've got one the lounge I got
done recently where the painters cracking and crazy and and
coming away a little bit, and I've got one of
the bedroom doing the same but to a large extent.

Speaker 7 (39:18):
Now, the guys came into one of the.

Speaker 14 (39:20):
Lounge and what they did they stripped away the with
a scarce and knife, the you know places in question.
They filled that with the contract further and in a
coat of what was it of three and one prep
for prep paint and then two coats of de Luxe

(39:44):
semi you know flat paint. Now the one the one
in the bedroom, which is a little bit whereas that
a few more areas of that would that would that
be a good fix?

Speaker 5 (39:58):
Well, I mean, look, if it's worked in the other area,
then there's no reason.

Speaker 14 (40:02):
Worked it was only done a week ago, or.

Speaker 5 (40:08):
Look, I probably I would use different products, right. So
if it was me and I've done some stuff on
firerus plasta thorough clean scrape back any loose material with
plaster surfaces, particularly old plaster surfaces surfaces, I really like
to use pigmented seala and it probably an oil based one.

(40:31):
There is now a water borne one as well, but
an oil based pigmented seala. And what that does typically
is it binds all of the old coatings together with
the substrate so it seems to penetrate and lock everything together.
Once I've done a pigmented seala, that's when I apply
any stopping or filling to that surface. Then I do

(40:52):
pigmented seala over the top of that again, and then
you can carry on with your acrylic top coats like
a ceiling flat or something like that. So that would
be my approach to it and my experience. That's all worked,
so give that a go as well. But what the
other guys did works, then stick with that too, So

(41:12):
you've got some options back after.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
The break helping you get those DIY projects done right.
The resident builder with peta Wolfcat call OH eight hundred
eighty ten eighty Youth Talk ZB Well.

Speaker 5 (41:24):
A very good morning, welcome back to the program. Oh
eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call.
No mucking around this morning. If you've got a question,
give me a call right now on eight hundred eighty
ten eighty. It could be about compliance, could be about materials,
it could be about tips and tricks. We've been talking
a little bit about deposits, which is always always an
intriguing one, you know, and it seems to be we've

(41:46):
had a couple of different opinions coming in through the
text machine. So someone asking, look, what's a reasonable deposit
to pay for a roofing contract. Let's say, so if
you're doing a reroof and you've accepted a price, and
then the contractor says, in this instance it was a
twenty nine thousand dollars job, sounds reasonable, and then the

(42:06):
contractor is asking for a fifty percent deposit? Is that
reasonable in that instance?

Speaker 7 (42:12):
It is.

Speaker 5 (42:12):
I've always been, and I've been quite open about this,
fairly critical of contractors asking for significant deposits, particularly for jobs,
you know, carpentry jobs. I don't see why I would
typically at this the beginning of a contract, like literally
the week before we'd start, ask for a deposit. Let's

(42:33):
say that allowed me to cover the guy's wages or
the guy's contract for the first two weeks until I
put in a first progress payment, that sort of thing.
But you know, asking for hefty deposits for building work
and other types of construction work. I think if you
google you know, dodgy builder, dodgy contractor dodgy concrete layer,

(42:56):
inevitably in there there will be a story about, you know,
they came, they tooked a big story and then they
asked for a hefty deposit, and then we didn't see
them for weeks, and when they did turn up they
did a little bit of work. In some cases, you know,
there's just countless stories. It's depressing and disheartening to read them.
To be blunt online about you know, people that have

(43:17):
spent tens of thousands of dollars with contractors who have
done very little work. The work that they have done
is very poor, and yet they keep their hand out
for more money, more money, Oh, I need a bit
more money to get that job. Or it's never a
surprise when you look at a job that's gone badly
that there weren't warning signs much earlier on. Anyway, we

(43:40):
can talk about that, or we can be a little
bit more up lightened and enthusiastic around engaging with contractors
and talk about jobs that you might like to get done.
Oh eight hundred and eighty ten, and I love that
text actually just before the news. Having a good relationship
with the local services is really important. So for example,
in this instance required a reroof it was a fifty

(44:01):
three thousand dollars job, no deposit required. They paid the
full invoice the day that it turned up later on.
Needed a small job done normally there's weight I phoned.
They were there that afternoon. That's what you get as
a client if you look after your contractors as well.
So paying promptly, even paying ahead of time is just

(44:23):
that generates so much goodwill. If they've done the job,
pay the bill, simple as that. Oh, eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty the number to call ten minutes after seven.
A little bit later on, we're going to catch up
with a fairly young guy running a crew doing some
beautiful building work outside of Blenham using the J and
L Jay frames. Will have a bit of a catch
up with him. And then I've had the opportunity to

(44:44):
prepare an interview with Professor David Welch from the University
of Auckland. He is a professor of audiology particularly and
his specialty is around hearing loss, causes of it, and
the impact of hearing loss. And I have said on
a couple of occasions over the last little while that
you know, I've got a real concern around how trades

(45:06):
people protect their ears and protect their hearing and whether
or not certain types of sort of modern devices for
want of a better phrase, are actually effective in terms
of their hearing loss. And I'd made a certain number
of assumptions. Interestingly enough, during the course of the interview,
I found that maybe I hadn't quite got it right.

(45:27):
So surprise, surprise, I might have been wrong on something,
but well, not quite wrong. My concerns were overstated. Anyway,
That interview coming up for you just after the eight
o'clock break. But right now it's an opportunity to talk
all things building in construction, So now's a great time
to call. The lines are open. The number is eight
hundred eighty ten.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Eighty measure twice God was but maybe call Pete first
video all care the resident builder.

Speaker 7 (45:52):
News talk said by a.

Speaker 5 (45:54):
News talk said, b If you've got a comment that
you'd like to make, or a question you would like
to ask, the number to call is eight hundred eighty
ten eighty. Couple of other quick texts, Hey Pete, any
good point is about replacing a couple of weather boards
on a house hints or things to watch out for. Look,
the really great thing is that weather boards. The beauty
of them is that they are replaceable and repairable and

(46:18):
in a relatively straightforward way. So typically what I would
be doing is trying to find the stud on either
side of the rotten area. You can use a multi tool,
for example, and cut. You have an option of either
cutting in the center of the stud and then removing
the board. In that way, you've got something to fix

(46:38):
the board onto the replacement board onto, or you can
cut alongside the stud and if you can get in there,
fix another piece of timber to the side of the stud.
That really only works if you're talking about something that
doesn't have building paper on it. Inevitably to get the
board out, because there'll be a part of the board
that laps up underneath the board above it. You will

(47:00):
end up having to make a cut through that board
in some way, in which case you can either pay
actually repair that with a SOAKA. You know, if you're
thinking that you're going to be doing like an extensive
number of weather boards, that's permissible replacing let's say, an
entire elevation of your house, one side of a house

(47:21):
that inevitably would require a building consent. But yeah, weather boards.
One of the beauties of them is that they are
able to be repairable, and that's I suppose the challenge
let's say with other types of cladding systems, is sometimes
they're not as easily repairable. Everything's repaarable, just not always
as easily. Oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the

(47:43):
number to call Brett. Good morning to you.

Speaker 10 (47:45):
Yeah, good a mate. Hey, A bit of a question. Sure,
I've got a client with a building next door to them,
and I've stuck some overflows in their internal gutters. Every
time it really rains, my client's buildings getting flooded out,
then there seems to be coming out. We've spoken to

(48:05):
the council about it. May reckon when they're overflows, but
to me, overflows shouldn't be spilling out water with you know,
unless they really need to.

Speaker 5 (48:13):
Yeah, for regular rainfall, you wouldn't expect the overflow to
be utilized, right The stormwater system or the drainage system
should be able to cope with what is regular rainfall, right,
so anywhere up to about forty millimeters per hour, which
is actually oh maybe no, that's too much, fifteen to

(48:33):
twenty milimeters per hour. So yeah, if you're seeing I mean,
I don't disagree with them in the sense that an
overflow is designed to allow water to escape the system
when the system is inundated, rather than sort of create
back pressure and push the water back inside the building envelope. Right,
So particularly if it's you know, this is the beauty

(48:55):
of external spouting, right, if it becomes overwhelmed, it just
flows over the front edge of the spouting and you
can see it. Whereas if you've got something that's inside
a parapet, and so you've got an internal you've got
a sump in there. If that gets overwhelmed and it
overflows and goes back inside the building, that's bad.

Speaker 10 (49:15):
Well, this is what's happening because the building next door
is two stories and our buildings on a single story.
So all the water is coming straight down the wall
and into the our client's building.

Speaker 5 (49:26):
And these are obviously commercial buildings, so they're butted together.

Speaker 7 (49:30):
Yep.

Speaker 10 (49:34):
Good, Like they're not allowing us access to get up
onto their roof to make sure that it's not low
enough to sort.

Speaker 5 (49:39):
Of is the overflow. Like often with parapets, you might
have let's say internal drainage then a connection to the
outside and the rain heads on the outside, or you've
got internal spouting or internal gutter formed up and a sump.

Speaker 10 (50:07):
There's no rain heads either, Renge, I must have something
that somewhere along the line.

Speaker 16 (50:12):
Yeah, I mean, how do you go about, you know,
having that discussion, because well, actually know, the interesting thing is,
and this is where the Property Act comes into play.

Speaker 5 (50:26):
So the Property Act is very much about ensuring that
and this is about stormwater, right that disposal of storm
water shouldn't cause a nuisance. So even though it's an overflow,
it should ultimately still be controlled.

Speaker 10 (50:45):
Yeah, well I've never done this before these overflows are installed.
These overflows have only been installed last year.

Speaker 5 (50:52):
I maybe you do need to go to a lawyer
and just get an opinion from them. They'll they'll be
able to show that concise part of the Act and go. Actually,
even even an overflow still needs to be controlled because
effect like, if you think about a situation where maybe
a residential section, you might have a met or so

(51:13):
between properties right or to the boundary, so that if
water overflows and then it overflows on the ground, the
overland flow path might take it to the neighbor. But
that's but even that generally needs to be controlled. In
your instance, where you've got two buildings abutting each other,
the overflow immediately falls onto your land, but its origin

(51:38):
is your neighbor's property. Therefore, you could make the argument, well, actually,
even though it's an overflow, you still need to control it.
So maybe they end up adding a downpipe to the
overflow that acts in such a way that if it
was blocked, it would still overflow, but generally the discharge
is controlled and directed back onto their property.

Speaker 10 (52:00):
Well, we basically told them to do that, yeah, and
hook it up to the stormwater drains precisely, but because
we've done it through the council, or the council's agreed,
but we've been through the council and they have said, well,
it's an overflow, so we're going to send a drone
up there probably today. Yeah, how high is off the
bottom of the gun and it's basically an outlet?

Speaker 5 (52:19):
Well you know, yes, that's right, Yeah, that's right. What
you don't want is that what they've done is they've
they've not bothered to do an outlet properly, and they're
calling it an overflow, but in fact it's just the outlet.

Speaker 10 (52:31):
Just an outlet, yeah, covered here asis, So it's not getting.

Speaker 5 (52:35):
Wet, absolutely, I tell you that, just because I find
this especially now that we're you know, in terms of
storm water, we're under real pressure, right, pardon the punt,
in terms of controlling it, and in terms of trying
to build in such a way that we allow for
these extreme weather events which are seemingly more and more common.

(52:55):
I was at a building the other day, large commercial building,
retail actually, and you know, big one hundred and fifty
milllion down pipe came down off the roof one of
several interesting just before it entered or hit the ground
right and entered their sort of in ground stormwater system,
they had obviously cut the pipe and inserted effectively an

(53:18):
upside down y junction or a y and an elbow.
So you imagine a situation where the pipes in the
ground are at capacity, and typically what you'll see then
is the pipes in the ground are at capacity, overwhelmed,
and the water will back up through the downpipe, and
then the water that's coming into the downpipe at the

(53:40):
top has got nowhere to go, so it overflows the spouting,
or it overwhelms the spouting goes back inside the building.
So what this system allowed for is that in most
weather events, the water will just go down the downpipe
and into the storm water. But in the event that
the stormwater in the ground is overwhelmed and it starts
to fill up the pipe, it'll simply spill out the

(54:00):
side and onto the ground. It was a really nifty
sort of thing. And I looked at that and thought, gee,
that's some smart thinking. And I haven't seen it everywhere,
but I just thought, gosh, that's quite clever. Quite like that.

Speaker 10 (54:12):
Yeah, because I have that problem with you, because I
do a lot of maintenance on commercial buildings and here
we have that sort of quite a few times. Was
where we are like all our landers built on bloody seed,
you know.

Speaker 5 (54:23):
Yeah, sure land, And it's one of those ones where
you know, in ninety nine percent of the time you
would never need that facility, but being really practical, you'd go,
we all know that sometimes in heavy rain, the actual
council the infrastructure is overwhelmed, right, So rather than backing
up all the way up the downs pipe and spilling

(54:43):
out the top, it just allows it to flood onto
the ground.

Speaker 17 (54:46):
Not not a.

Speaker 5 (54:48):
Perfect solution, but better than having your downpipes overwhelmed and
water getting back inside the building. Yeah.

Speaker 10 (54:53):
Well cheaper too, really, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (54:55):
Yeah, well that's right.

Speaker 14 (54:56):
That's right above a box.

Speaker 5 (54:59):
Or something like that. Absolutely, mate, good luck with that,
Good luck with the drone today, jeers, all of this,
all of this, it is a challenge, isn't it. Oh
eight hundred and eighty ten eighty the number to call Patty.
You've got some thoughts.

Speaker 13 (55:14):
Oh my words, yes, oh my launch into it.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
Oh yeah, I knew your brother Frank.

Speaker 5 (55:24):
Okay, don't worry. He's still around, by the way.

Speaker 13 (55:27):
But yeah, oh ship, yeah, well none of us are
that old.

Speaker 4 (55:36):
Track him down. They he was a good Russia good yeah,
and yeah, I've been through the metal, the councils and
all that sort of stuff. I won't go on about it,
but the subde at the moment, I'm sixty six, I'm

(55:56):
halfway to one hundred and thirty two. Yep, So I
want to used to sorry, get into the concrete ten yes,
and can you give me a reasonable explanation you're understanding

(56:18):
why the price is massively high on buying it from
the actual I was going to say, breweries.

Speaker 5 (56:29):
I like have rates to be fair, I haven't bought
a truckload of concrete or a couple of cube for
a little while, but rates were typically somewhere around two
hundred and fifty three hundred bucks a cube. Have they
rushed rocked up from there?

Speaker 7 (56:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (56:49):
So what would you be paying for, say twenty MPa
or seventeen standard concrete twenty milchip seventeen point five MPa.

Speaker 4 (57:04):
Slightly more than that, but I guess it depends where
you are.

Speaker 5 (57:09):
Yes, Yes, scarcity will have an issue.

Speaker 4 (57:13):
Scarcity well in.

Speaker 5 (57:15):
Terms of, you know, if it's remote, or if the
truck's got to travel a long way, those sorts of things.
Surely that will have a bit of an impact.

Speaker 4 (57:23):
You know, that's dame right, they say in the States.
But the you know, is the price of the calcium
that are adding to the concrete.

Speaker 5 (57:40):
I'm just thinking most of the elements you need to
make concrete are actually local, aren't they. So aggregate sand
and we make cement in New Zealand as well, So
there's not a lot. There's not a huge impact on
the importation of goods. Bearing in mind that I think
it's north of ninety percent of New Zealand building products

(58:03):
have an element that is from overseas, whether it's the
entire element or a component of an element that we
were Plasterboard for example, we import gypsum, right, plenty of
paper here, plenty of water, but we import the gypsum cement.
I'm pretty sure we manufacture here. I look into that,

(58:23):
but yeah, we do.

Speaker 4 (58:25):
And it used to be in Golden Bay.

Speaker 5 (58:27):
Yeah, and what's.

Speaker 4 (58:33):
Yeah this The question is how come the concrete companies
can charge that much more than what they used to?
Is there any look?

Speaker 5 (58:54):
I think a lot of rates have have got The
hard thing is rates often for materials. In some cases
services are quick to rise. So rates went up, you know,
post COVID when things were booming, and sometimes they're a
little bit slow to come back down. Other things have
moved around. I remember having a conversation with Endy from

(59:16):
construction costs consultants. So they measure their quantity surveys. They
measure building costs all the time. So pre COVID square
meter rate on blockwork, for example, was about four hundred
and forty bucks a square meter. Post COVID, it rocked
up to about eight hundred and then by now we've

(59:36):
seen it drop back down to around the same rate,
so it's almost gone back to normal, let's say in
inverted commas. But whether or not you know, prices for
materials have come back. I think they have in general,
and also I think with concrete it depends a little
bit on the quantity that you're purchasing and how often

(59:56):
you're purchasing. You know, if you're ordering a truck every day,
your rate's going to be better than if you, you know,
randomly ring up once a year and go, oh, they
need a truck a concrete. So I don't have a
magical answer to all of that, petty, but I'll pass
on your regards to my brother. I appreciate that. Oh,
eight hundred and eighty ten eighty the number to call Graham.
Good morning to you.

Speaker 7 (01:00:18):
Oh, yes, Graham.

Speaker 17 (01:00:20):
Here, I've got a report of property. It's got an
old Acadian nineteen eighty one brick house on it. Now
we've had a couple of leaks in this in the
roof sine, and it's got the de gramatic tiles on it.

Speaker 7 (01:00:35):
Yep.

Speaker 17 (01:00:37):
The plumber recons it's probably be mess to get rid
of the tiles and just rebruf it. Yep. So there's
a few issues of that, because if we don't put
tiles back on, then apparent we have to do a
bit of building work to get long run.

Speaker 7 (01:00:54):
Or corrogated iron on.

Speaker 17 (01:00:56):
Yes, yeah, so I'm thinking, funny, that's got good long givity,
low maintenance.

Speaker 7 (01:01:04):
Where do you go?

Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
I think Unfortunately, one of the issues with like the
press metal tile, whether it's dechromastic or another brand, is
I reckon. Most of the cause for leaks is people
walking around on the roof who don't know what they're doing,
and so you know they're in and of themselves. They're
actually a pretty durable roof. But all of the damage

(01:01:30):
that I've ever seen, and almost all of the leaks
that I've ever seen, have come from people who I
don't know, maybe go out to put the sky area on,
not blaming sky, or need to do some maintenance, or
you know two story house you walk around up there
to do the painting.

Speaker 17 (01:01:47):
Yes, it's also got the internal guvering.

Speaker 5 (01:01:50):
Ah as an concealed spouting behind concealed spouting behind metal facia. Correct, right, okay, um,
and they're not great, right, that's not great. I'll tell
you what now, knowing that, knowing that you've got the
old might be class facier, it might be another version,

(01:02:12):
but that concealed spouting behind a metal facier, I think
I would be inclined to if you can bite the
bullet and sort out both problems at once, right, So yes,
you're right. If you take off the old press metal tile,
they typically are laid down on a baton, which is
like a basically a tuber one batten. Right, And so

(01:02:35):
you really shouldn't fix roofing iron to that. You need perlins.
The perlins need to be at about nine hundred centers
eight nine hundred centers and the peerlins will be seventy
five x fifty. So what happens then is your roof
gets higher, and sometimes you can end up with the
roof being if you're going to go long run, and
that's probably where I would head. You end up with

(01:02:57):
that being higher than you're spouting, particularly if you've got
the concealed spouting. But the concealed spouting is a problem,
so I would rip that off at the same time,
do the reroof do new external facia with or faciit
with an external gutter running around it. I went and

(01:03:17):
had a look at a job the other day which
was concrete tile roof with that internal spouting. I went
to Custom Spouting and Facia. They did a sort of
off the plan estimate they've got a clip system which
essentially removes the old one, installs a new metal facia
and exterior spouting, and it was it was actually pretty

(01:03:40):
reasonable to swap that over. But you know, all up,
you're probably talking about I don't know, twenty five thousand dollars,
thirty thousand dollars exercise.

Speaker 17 (01:03:55):
Oh, that actually sounds reasonable compared to some of the
prices I've heard.

Speaker 5 (01:04:00):
So look, you know, I don't know the size of it.
I don't know whether you need.

Speaker 4 (01:04:04):
It each protection terms of square meters.

Speaker 5 (01:04:06):
Okay, then it's going to be way more than that, unfortunately.
Oh yeah, but look, it will provide you with an
opportunity to For example, if it's a nineteen ninety one house,
there won't be a lot of insulation, or the insulation
that was installed in it will probably have sagged, so
perfect opportunity. If you're stripping the roof off, you could
upgrade the insulation.

Speaker 17 (01:04:30):
Well, start it all started, because we've got a it's
actually nineteen eighty one, and it's got a white textured
ceiling which has got a spesto. The job started.

Speaker 7 (01:04:42):
We've had to get.

Speaker 17 (01:04:43):
The best us removed, yes, and then the guys come
and look at this beestus is going by the way,
do you know your ceilings sagging? Yep, and I got
water leaks and then the job sort of got bigger
and bigger.

Speaker 5 (01:04:56):
Yeah, and to be fair, I work Safe issued a notice.
Actually it's going back about four or five years now
even longer, actually a around the need to have that
type of roofing tile assessed for whether or not it
contains asbestos as well. And unfortunately, well fortunately in terms

(01:05:20):
of health and safety, unfortunately in terms of dollars, if
for example, that roofing has got asbestos, then your removal
costs go from maybe a grand or two to possibly
as much as fifteen to sixteen thousand dollars based on
a job that I was aware of recently. So you know,
the costs could continue to extend and balloon out. You

(01:05:45):
really do need to get that roofing tested if you're
going to remove it.

Speaker 7 (01:05:49):
Yep.

Speaker 17 (01:05:50):
Okay, And really, as fad longevity goes, we're probably looking
at say like a long round with an external like
a custom said custom spouting or yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (01:06:00):
Mean that's a firm that I know has they've developed
because this is such a common problem, they have developed
a system that allows them to come in remove the
existing one and replace it. And so if you worked,
if they worked in with RUFA, they'll come up with
a really good solution for you. Awesome, all the very best,

(01:06:20):
But it sounds like it's a little bit of a
bigger job than you might have expected. It happens break yeah,
absolutely good on you. All the very best. Thanks grem
take care your news. Talk z'd b if you'd like
to join us. We've got time for your calls. Oh
eight hundred eighty ten eighty is that number to call?
Interesting one just on the previous Our first caller in

(01:06:42):
the hour, Bret talking about this situation where commercial buildings
are budding each other overflows causing damage to the adjoining property.
Someone has said, look, it's a case of trespass of water.
He needs legal advice. I'm not sure if trespassing water
is a thing, but I get the point. I think
there is an obligation on a property owner to control

(01:07:02):
stormwater on their property. You can't allow it to become
a nuisance for somebody else in the built environment. This
is the difference, because I remember having this discussion around
farms for example. You know, if you're a farmer at
the bottom of the hill and your neighbors at the
top of the hill and you cop their water. Nothing
you can do about that, right, it's natural environment. In

(01:07:23):
a residential situation, an urban environment, that's where you can say, hey,
you need to control your stormwater. I don't expect to
cop your stormwater in the event of heavy rain. Back
after the.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Break doing of the house storting the guard and asked
Pete for a hand the resident builder with Peter WILFCAP
call eighty us dogs Vy.

Speaker 5 (01:07:45):
Today we're talking with Rhon Maturo from RCM Construction based
in Blenheim. Now, Rihon's going to give us a bit
of a rundown of his experience was with the jframe.
Thanks for joining us this morning. What's the biggest surprise
for you when you started working with jayframe? Perhaps you know,
compared to conventional timber framing.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
Ye.

Speaker 18 (01:08:03):
I was actually quite a surprised how straight and not
twist the jframe was, yep, compared to traditional framing.

Speaker 5 (01:08:10):
And in terms of being on site like you've started
using it, are you noticing difference in terms of speed, durability,
ease of use?

Speaker 14 (01:08:19):
Definitely.

Speaker 18 (01:08:20):
Jaframes definitely helped with speed, right, especially when it comes
to straightening the frames and preparing for internal and external linings.

Speaker 5 (01:08:29):
Now, in terms of the jframe your workflow, have you
noticed like that, given that you don't have to straighten everything,
does that make you more efficient?

Speaker 17 (01:08:38):
Definitely?

Speaker 18 (01:08:39):
Yeah, yeah, And there's also a massive cost in savings
and labor the.

Speaker 7 (01:08:44):
Client, right, just because of the quality of the jframe.

Speaker 5 (01:08:48):
And you know, we're all in the building trade, we're
all starting to talk about sustainability. How does that fit
into your environmental approach?

Speaker 7 (01:08:57):
I touched on earlier, how how straight jframe was? Yes, twisted,
so yes, you get to use a bit.

Speaker 18 (01:09:05):
More of a full lengths there's no waste, right, minimized
the environmental impact.

Speaker 5 (01:09:10):
And that's really important because we've all driven past skips
full of off cuts of timber and you know the
twisted but so you don't have to get rid of yep,
that's because they basically aren't any Hey. Now, the guys
at J and L tell me that you're on a
pretty big build at the moment. Where's that and how's
it going?

Speaker 17 (01:09:26):
It's where mold we're here.

Speaker 18 (01:09:28):
Yes, I'm currently on a massive seven hundred square met
architecture bood. Wow, it's we've got some great clients that
we're working for them. We've sort of been here in
now ten months and preparing for linings, which is which
is a great for progress. Yes, definitely because of J frawn,

(01:09:49):
Like it's sort of minimized just labor and productivity through.

Speaker 10 (01:09:56):
The roof because of how straight the product is.

Speaker 5 (01:09:58):
Yeah, and I guess if you're doing really big walls
and really long walls, that really counts.

Speaker 7 (01:10:03):
Doesn't it. Definitely?

Speaker 6 (01:10:04):
Definitely.

Speaker 5 (01:10:05):
Hey, if people want to see your work at ROSM Construction,
what's the best way to get hold of you?

Speaker 18 (01:10:10):
Contact us on rhon Arism Construction dot brilliant.

Speaker 5 (01:10:16):
Hey, appreciate you taking the time to chat about the
jframe and all the best for the lining coming up.
Take care zby quick text as well, just before we
chat with Allen morning Peek. Consent for fireplaces. I have
a freestanding fluid gas burner that was installed twenty years
ago and it replaced a wood burning fireplace, so it

(01:10:39):
uses the original chimney with a separate flu up the
middle of the existing chimney. I want to take out
the gas burner and put in a new wood burning
fireplace back in and use the original chimney. Would I
need to have that consented? Short answer, yes, So it's
really clear. Fireplaces, whether they're wood burning or gas, always

(01:11:00):
require a building consent, so not often you get simple answers.
But that's a simple one. Fireplaces consent most definitely replacing it.
I don't think is considered like for like, I think
you need a building consent for that, rightio, Where are
we at? A very good morning to actually Polly? First? Hello,
how are you?

Speaker 19 (01:11:21):
I'm very well?

Speaker 4 (01:11:22):
Thank you?

Speaker 7 (01:11:23):
Good?

Speaker 5 (01:11:24):
Now what's going on?

Speaker 9 (01:11:27):
Well?

Speaker 19 (01:11:27):
My questions are if I say I'm eighteen nine, which
means that although I'm elderly, I'm not stupid. Do you
know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (01:11:35):
I know exactly what you mean. My mum's ninety two,
and I would never make that assumption.

Speaker 19 (01:11:41):
But I've had some getting my place ashvelters, my friend
redoing it so it's nice and smart, you know, tidy,
so I may as well have the pleasure out of
it before I die. Sure, yeah, okay, I won't go
into all that. So I've had two huge trees which

(01:12:02):
need to be taken down, Yes, one for the ashveltin too,
for the safety of the house, very near the house.
What happens if I m asked to pay under the
table if some damage is done for my sewage pipes
or the house or the people who are dealing with

(01:12:23):
the trees, right.

Speaker 5 (01:12:26):
I would say it's going no, not in the slightest Well, yeah,
I mean, look, there's obviously the whole thing around. I've
always been very clear that paying a contractor in cash
is actually okay. Right. However, often when those payments are made,

(01:12:51):
it's because the contractor, as a business owner, is not
declaring their income. Right, so it's evasion, which is a crime.
So well, that's in some ways ultimately not your responsibility.
But if you know that that's what's happening, I guess
you've got a moral responsibility to go do I want
to engage with that? The other thing is typically cash jobs,

(01:13:14):
there's no receipt, right, there's no contract, there's no assurances
and so on. So if there was a problem, how
would you then go about getting redressed from the contractor
for the work? Chances are they're not going to be
insured and they're not going to tell you who they're
insurer is, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I guess,

(01:13:34):
you know, the benefit of working with a legitimate contractor
who presents themselves, can show you their insurance certificate, gives
you a receipt for the work. Has got a company
that is not going to go under in two days time.
There's some upside to that, isn't there?

Speaker 19 (01:13:52):
Yes, so I shake the risk.

Speaker 7 (01:13:54):
Yes, it would all be.

Speaker 19 (01:14:01):
Yes, right, all my family are away right responsibility, which
I'm used to doing, I've done. Okay, well, thank you
for that. You've just you know, but they're nice people,
you see, and I hope I'm real that's my neck name.

(01:14:24):
So it's people won't be able to.

Speaker 5 (01:14:26):
Yeah, it's one of those things.

Speaker 4 (01:14:28):
I guess like that.

Speaker 5 (01:14:30):
It all it's all good until it's not. And then
when it's not good, where do you go to after that?
And maybe the job will go swimmingly and there won't
be an issue, and the trees will come out in
the ashveld will go down, it'll all be beautiful. But
if that's not the case, then it's it's going to
be really hard to get any sort of redress, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:49):
Okay, Well, thank you for that.

Speaker 8 (01:14:51):
Good luck telling me what I know.

Speaker 5 (01:14:56):
Program that's very kind thank you very much all this bothery,
just on the payments thing, because it's been a bit
of a theme on the show today. Hey Pete, can
I suggest a solution to protect good people from bad
customers and likewise protect people from cowboys. Is that the
government to establish a scene similar to tenancy bonds. For example,

(01:15:19):
I need my driveway contracted good substitute there with ashfelt
quote at fifteen grand, I put fifteen grand into a
bond that's released to the contractor upon completion of the job.
Under that scheme, there'd be a tribunal to claim against
poor workmanship, etc. Just just the thought love you show
from Paul. The last thing I want is another government
department and more bureaucracy. Right interestingly enough that similar schemes

(01:15:44):
do exist, And a couple of years ago I met
a guy who is now running a company called I Promise,
and it's essentially an scrow service. So if I'm the
client and I engage a builder, let's say to do
an extension, we agree that the value of the work
is two hundred thousand dollars. That sum is placed into escrow,

(01:16:04):
placed into a trust account, and if I accept an invoice,
the money is released to the contractor, so the contractor
has surety that hey, the client's got the money, and
because you can see it in the account, and then
I have some control that I'm only paying out when

(01:16:25):
I'm satisfied that the work has been done to a
suitable standard. And there are a couple of different schemes
like that. So yeah, over a longer contract, there are
ways of protecting yourself. They're out there right now as well.
But look, the idea of the government becoming involved in this.
In fact, interestingly enough, and someone mentioned this, Mike from

(01:16:48):
a spy property was in as a guest actually just
after I was here yesterday afternoon talking and we had
a brief chat talking about bonds and that sort of thing. Look,
even tendency services running the bond scheme is not terribly
efficient at the moment. Apparently it's going to be upgraded. Yeah,

(01:17:08):
the government having more and more influence or say, I'm
not a big fan, to be fair. Eleven minutes away
from eight o'clock, will take a short break. We'll talk
to Allen in just a moment if you'd like to
join us. Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty is the
number whether.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
You're painting the ceiling, fixing the fens, or wondering how
to fix that hole in the wall. Do you have
Peter wolf Cap call on ten eighty the resident builder
on News dogs B.

Speaker 5 (01:17:32):
Just a heads up as well after eight o'clock, so
between eight and eight thirty an interview with doctor David Welch,
who is the Associate Professor of Audiology at Auckland University,
actually at the Faculty of Medical and Health Science. So
his whole research is around audiology obviously, around hearing and
hearing protection and the impact of hearing loss as well.

(01:17:55):
So I sat down with him and we've had a
bit of a chat and we've got that coming up
for you straight after the eight o'clock news. Allen, A
very good morning to you.

Speaker 13 (01:18:04):
Well, okay, I'm doing all right yourself.

Speaker 8 (01:18:07):
Yeah, all right, it's surviving.

Speaker 5 (01:18:10):
Good.

Speaker 8 (01:18:11):
What's I was up on me roof. I'm cleaning my
house down, painting it awesome, and in the spouting I
found some twenty mil screws. Twenty mil I thought, my god,

(01:18:34):
how is my roof hanging on?

Speaker 13 (01:18:37):
Well?

Speaker 5 (01:18:37):
I wonder, as were you sure that they were actual
roofing screws like a Hicks head.

Speaker 8 (01:18:43):
Yes, there are hicks head that been put in with
a you know, a battery reatny drill thing, but they
were done in the nineteen nineties.

Speaker 7 (01:18:57):
I had this.

Speaker 8 (01:18:57):
Roof put on. I'm wondering, if I've been there.

Speaker 5 (01:19:00):
For that long, possibly, what's roof in?

Speaker 16 (01:19:06):
Do you have?

Speaker 5 (01:19:07):
Ellen, what's your roof? Long run?

Speaker 8 (01:19:11):
It's long run nine corrugate. Yeah, they did the complainte
to me about the removed timber and it was so
hard to screw into.

Speaker 5 (01:19:23):
I wonder where whether what you've found in your archaeological
survey of spouting is in fact if let's say they've
hit remove peerlins and the screw has sheared off right
as it's been wound in, and so the top part
of it has broken off, and that.

Speaker 8 (01:19:44):
No, no, no, no, that's the whole crew. It's got
weird all the way, streight all away, and then there's
a yeah, yeah that goes in.

Speaker 5 (01:20:00):
Let's hope that that's not what they've fixed your roof
down with. Because typically bottom of the t off the
top of the ridge on a bit of corrugates about
nineteen millimeters. So if you put a twenty milimeter screw
in there with a little neoprene washers. If it touches
the timber, that'll be good. But it's certainly not holding.

Speaker 8 (01:20:19):
Is its De're right, it's been there for since the
nineteen ninety So I'm going to take a screw wither.

Speaker 5 (01:20:27):
Yeah, I was going to say, get up there with
a driver and pull a couple of screws out and
see what the story is. Look, I mean for shimmers
at least the last fifteen years or so, probably a
little bit longer. Typically we have done roofing with screws, right,
and there's a specific type of roofing screw. It'll have
a heck's head on it. It'll have a little near

(01:20:48):
prene washer underneath it. It'll have a counter thread close
to the head. Then you'll have a little bit of
a smooth shank, and then it'll have the standard thread
and often a drill point so that rather than having
to pre drill your sheets, you can, and it's a
good idea to do it. You can actually drill through
the sheet with the drill bit on the end of
the screw, and then it'll tie itself into the peerlin

(01:21:11):
and then the counter thread pushes the iron up hard
against the underside of the flange of the heck's head
right and seals against the washer and whether you depending
on what type of perlins, what type of iron, and
all the rest of it, you'll have different links screws.
But that's the standard process.

Speaker 8 (01:21:31):
Ah okay, yeah, roofing screws. Yeah, it's just ordinary color steel.

Speaker 7 (01:21:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:21:37):
Yeah. So if it's color steel, it's a standard profile.
It'll be maybe a sixty five mil screw, for example,
but it's certainly not going to be a twenty mil screw.

Speaker 10 (01:21:49):
Good grief.

Speaker 5 (01:21:51):
Yeah, I can understand being a little bit distressed also,
you know, I mean, look, good trades people. You shouldn't
leave all your stuff in the spouting. Clean down the roof,
get rid of all the swarth. Make sure you don't
just sweep it into the spouting too. That's not a
great sign. Good with that, and please be safe when
you're up on the roof. Righty oh, we've got new
sport and weather. Our interview with doctor David Welch after

(01:22:15):
the eight o'clock break as red climb pass at eight thirty.

Speaker 1 (01:22:19):
Squeaky door or squeaky floor Get the right advice from
Peter Wolfgaev, the resident builder on Newstalk semb.

Speaker 5 (01:22:27):
Looking forward to my conversation with doctor David Welch in
just a moment. He is Associate professor of Audiology at
Auckland University, and I wanted to reach out and talk
about essentially hearing protection, hearing loss and more. I wanted
to raise a couple of questions around people perhaps using
like the noise canceling earbuds and that for hearing protection,

(01:22:49):
which I had some questions about. So it's a bit
of a deep dive into hearing. It's a bit of
a personal thing for me. I think that it's trying
to get young guys on site to be blunt, to
put their bloody EMUs on. It seems to be really,
really hard. But I think you might just have had
bit of an epiphany there if you're listening to this
in the next little while, some good information about that

(01:23:11):
about hearing loss. We've got a root climb passed at
eight thirty as well. A couple of people have texted
and just regard to Allen's comments before the news about
finding his little twenty mil screws in the spouting, so
they might be flashing or gutta strap screws. Let's hope so,
and someone else has just said, hey, look, lazy rufer

(01:23:32):
probably just dumped a couple of short screws and when
they fell out of his belt while he was up
on the roof. Maybe, but I suspect that they are
flashing screws. Let's hope that's the simple answer. And then gosh,
this could be a whole topic for another day. I'm
planning to do a wall reshuffle in my house, including
a new kitchen and bathroom. Do you have any tips

(01:23:53):
or advice on keeping it on the cheaper side? I
could invite comment on that. We should say I'll keep
that one for next week. I think that'll be a
purla of a discussion for next week. How you know,
if you're tradesperson and you hear a client go, how
can we do it cheaper? It's maybe a sign that
you go, is this the job for me? Actually? Great

(01:24:15):
discussions about deposits and payments today on the show as well.
Maybe well we can make that a bit of a
topic in a couple of weeks time as well. Right, oh,
it is coming up nine minutes after eight here at
news Talk said beat back after.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
The break, helping you get those DIY projects done right.
The resident builder with Peter Wolfcat Call OH eight eight
Youth Talk ZEDB.

Speaker 5 (01:24:40):
Is Professor David Welch from the Auckland University, who is
a specialist in hearing and audiology, and it's been a
big concern of mine for a number of years that
perhaps we don't take hearing protection as serious as we should.
So it's my great pleasure to have a chance to
chat with you this morning. David, thank you for joining us.

(01:25:01):
Before we begin, can you just give us a bit
of a background as to your work and what you're
involved with at the moment.

Speaker 7 (01:25:08):
Yeah, Hi, Pete, thanks for having me on.

Speaker 20 (01:25:09):
It's really good to talk about this kind of stuff
and I'm glad to hear you've been thinking about it.

Speaker 5 (01:25:15):
Sure.

Speaker 20 (01:25:16):
So I'm a scientist, I suppose I work in the
audiology department at the University of Auckland and my interests
are in noise very broadly. So I do work on
the kind of noise that you're talking about, the kind
of damages people's hearing and how we can protect ourselves
and that kind of thing, but I'm also interested in

(01:25:37):
the effects of noise on our health more broadly, so
the stress effects of noise that does things that stopping
people sleeping, and just the noise around us at all
times that causes trouble. So yeah, pretty broad interest, really sure.

Speaker 5 (01:25:58):
I mean, look, it's obviously a massive field. So in
terms of if you're out for a walk, right and
you walk past a building site and you see a
bunch of trades people there and they're using power tools
and rotary hammer drills and grinders and that sort of thing,
and maybe one or two of them have got hearing
protection on, maybe some don't. Do you get a sense

(01:26:19):
of I want to come and talk to you guys
about this.

Speaker 7 (01:26:24):
Yes, sometimes I do.

Speaker 5 (01:26:27):
Oh, really fantastical.

Speaker 7 (01:26:28):
Well i'd feel bad if I didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:26:30):
You know.

Speaker 20 (01:26:30):
Sure, people don't have to do as they say, but
you know, I'll say things to people because I know
how terribly impactful it can be if you lose your
hearing and it's just not necessary. You know, we've got
good ways of protecting hearing now, and if you're using
tools like that, the sound is you know, it's at
a level that will really damage your ears.

Speaker 7 (01:26:50):
So it is.

Speaker 20 (01:26:52):
It's a sad thing to see. And I get it
that not everybody wants to wear it. It's uncomfortable sometimes
and all of that. It's a to me, it's a
trade off scenario, right, minor inconvenience right now for a
quality of life in a few years time which will
be much much higher.

Speaker 5 (01:27:12):
Absolutely, just in terms of like, there is obviously a
level at which noise becomes damaging to our hearing. So
for our listeners, how would you describe that a conversation
damaging to our hearing? At what disaboue rating do we
need to be concerned?

Speaker 20 (01:27:33):
Yeah, look, that's a really good question and we don't
have an absolutely clear answer on that one. Legally, in
New Zealand, in workplaces, if you're working for eight hours,
it makes them exposure before your employer has to take
action as eighty five deff adults before they have to
provide you with hearing protection. But we know that over

(01:27:55):
time that level of noise exposure will cause harm to
some people, right And one of the problems is that
people are more or less vulnerable to it, and there's
no way of telling. You know, when you're say you're
thirty and you're working on your building site and the

(01:28:15):
other person next to you is the same age, one
of you might start to develop hearing loss at a
significant level, you know where you're really struggling in normal
conversations in say twenty years. The other one it might
take you longer, it might take thirty years. And you
don't know who. You don't know which one of those
two people you are at the time, so it's just

(01:28:35):
a it's a mystery unfortunately. So there for the best
answer is to protect yourself.

Speaker 5 (01:28:40):
So two people exposed to the same amount of noise
for a similar period of time will have over time
different reactions, or their hearing will be affected in different ways.

Speaker 7 (01:28:50):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 (01:28:51):
Wow, in terms of you know what we know about
hearing loss, how much hearing loss, let's say in older age,
can be contributed to exposure to excessive noise either in
the workplace sor at home earlier in their lives.

Speaker 7 (01:29:10):
Absolutely, yeah, I think it's so.

Speaker 20 (01:29:12):
When they're born, we're born with a finite number of
sensory cells in our ears, approximately sixteen thousand in each ear,
and they're called up inside the cochlear and one of
the effects of nornies exposure is to kill these cells.

Speaker 7 (01:29:29):
Basically, it overworks them.

Speaker 20 (01:29:31):
So you've got this little gull telling your brain I'm
hearing something. I'm hearing something, and that action causes the
cell ultimately to work itself to death and die. And
so when you lose one, you're down to you know,
from you, say, sixteen thousand, it's approximate numbers from your
sixteen thousand down to fifteen nine hundred ninety nine. You

(01:29:52):
probably aren't going to notice that the next day, Right,
it's one.

Speaker 7 (01:29:54):
Dead cell out of a whole lot.

Speaker 20 (01:29:57):
But gradually you chip them away, and so as you
get a bit older, you might start noticing it. And
then when you when aging kicks in, which actually it
starts from a round about age thirty, we're not from
it thirty.

Speaker 5 (01:30:16):
Yeah, just a distant memory for.

Speaker 20 (01:30:18):
Me, but anyway, but yeah, even from a thirty our age,
age is starting to cause loss of hearing. And so
when that overlays on top of the cells that have
been lost due to noise exposure, that obviously accelerates the process.

Speaker 7 (01:30:37):
And if you've lost.

Speaker 20 (01:30:39):
A lot of hearing in your younger years because of noise,
the age related hearing loss will impact you much faster. Right,
working on an already damaged system.

Speaker 5 (01:30:52):
I have to say I've never actually had it described
in that manner that you've got a I've sort of
got this image of knocking down pins in a bowling alley. Right,
If you've got sixteen thousand of them out there and
you're bowling down and you knock out ten and then
you knock out another, you know, no one's putting them
back up again. That's it. They're gone.

Speaker 20 (01:31:11):
Yep, yeah, they can't. That's well, you think about areas
compared to the rest of our body. It doesn't heal right,
the system is such that it's everything's very delicately balanced,
and so in order to very quickly get rid of
the damaged cells, which the air needs to do to
make sure it can function normally, that part of the
air scars over and so there's no way that a

(01:31:34):
new hair cell can can sort of grow in its place.
Some other species can do that. Frogs can do it,
Birds can do it where they can redifferentiate supporting cells
to turn into sensory cells.

Speaker 7 (01:31:48):
After they've lost the sensory cell.

Speaker 20 (01:31:49):
But unfortunately mammals including humans, can't do that.

Speaker 5 (01:31:54):
In terms of protecting our ears in a high noise environment,
and that might be people working at home using you know,
mowing the lawns, or using a chainsaw, or doing some
work in the workshop, or sanding down the house, those
sorts of things. My own opinion, based just on my
own experience, is that hearing protection should be ear muffs,
right like a covering over the years, one of the things.

(01:32:18):
And I have no scientific background as to why I
believe this, but I see increasing numbers of trades people
using essentially in ear earphones that are noise canceling as
hearing protection, and I'll just be blunt, I'm not convinced
that they offer hearing protection in a conventional sense. Is

(01:32:38):
there any research on this? What do we know about
the impact of noise canceling in the ear earbuds versus
ear muffs.

Speaker 20 (01:32:47):
Well, look, I think you've hit on a really interesting area,
and it's one that I'll freely admit I don't know
the answer to. I don't think anybody does, but I'm
more than happy to discuss it.

Speaker 5 (01:32:58):
Sure, So.

Speaker 7 (01:33:01):
You mentioned a muffs.

Speaker 5 (01:33:02):
The ear defenders great big cans that sit over urears
and just they block out as much sound as possible.

Speaker 20 (01:33:10):
Yeah, Yeah, that's right. And they do it through sort
of two main mechanisms. One is they've got that hard
out of shell, yes, that acts as a barrier to
the sound. And then they've also got the padding inside yep,
that absorbs some of the sound that comes through the shell,
and so they protect areas really quite well. Ear plugs

(01:33:32):
are also good, so you know the same sort of
thing that you do. Put them into your ear canal
and they basically seal off the air canal. And whether
it's those foam ones which if you roll them up
and push them deeply into your canal they work really
really well, or they're the kind of plastic flanged ones, yes,
pushing as well. So all of those things work, and

(01:33:53):
they're designed for protecting people's hearing the high sound level environments,
and so the manufacturers of those things have to go
through quite quite rigorous testing procedures with all their product
and that's where we get the rating system that we use,
which is based on I think called the.

Speaker 7 (01:34:12):
Slc AT, which is they get people to fit the.

Speaker 20 (01:34:17):
Air muscle the air plugs and actually test how much
protection they're getting from them. So there's a really good
set of processes around that. Getting on to your point
about noise canceling air buds.

Speaker 5 (01:34:30):
Yeah, yeah, different, Sorry, do you have an opinion.

Speaker 20 (01:34:36):
My opinion, you know, as a scientist, in my opinion
is I don't know. I can't As a sciences I
can't say. So I suppose what I'd advise people is
to just be careful and you know, stick with the
the stuff that we know to be safe. But look,
I think that might be a bit too conservative, because

(01:34:56):
it is perfectly possible that those little air buds could
be effective. And I'll tell you what what I know,
which is the it has been a starts. I'm aware
one scientific study done, and it was done a few
years ago, maybe four or five years ago, where they
actually tested out some of those devices. And one of
the problems with this is, of course there are hundreds

(01:35:18):
of them right each you know, Headshone company a few
different models and they change every year and all that stuff.
So they tested the ones that were around there, and
some of them did seem to work. The point of
having something that sits in your ecinal if.

Speaker 7 (01:35:37):
It feels in all those sort of little.

Speaker 20 (01:35:39):
Rubber mushroom things that grip this grip the sides of
the ear canal wall, it does actually present quite an
effective barrier to the incoming sound. So can help it
can be light wearing a pair of air plugs. I
used to have something. They've broken there, but I used
to have some that were literally ear plugs on the
ends of the speakers, so they were like earbuds with

(01:36:02):
ear plugs built into them. Yes, and you could swop.

Speaker 7 (01:36:05):
The air plug part.

Speaker 20 (01:36:06):
They wore out, unfortunately, the electronic bit side. So it
is possible to get ones that are designed these were
a three M when I think that I had. Yep,
you can get ones that are designed as earbuds that
have an occluding effect that block the incoming sound. But
you're talking about the ones that are more designed as

(01:36:26):
noise canceling, so they'll use electronic active cancelation of the
incoming sound by generating a waveform that's one hundred and
ninety degrees out of phase with the incoming sound. They're
canceling the sound itself right in an active manner rather
than a passive blocking manner. And you know that does

(01:36:49):
as we know, when we listen to it, you can't
hear the sound, and so being unable to hear the
sound is a pretty good clue that it's not damaging areas.
If it doesn't sound loud, chances are it's at a
level that isn't damaging areas too much. However, sometimes sound

(01:37:11):
will be blocked out in some frequencies, so it sounds muffled,
but not in other frequencies that get in and cause
the damage. And so you can't always trust your perception
on that one. And that's why I'm being a bit
cagy sure in terms of answering you, Well, they might
well protect, but they also might not, depending on right

(01:37:31):
how well they're designed.

Speaker 5 (01:37:32):
And I guess there are a relatively new innovation and
so maybe we haven't. And you know, out of respect
to the producers and manufacturers of them, they probably don't
intend them or they may not intend them to be
used in an industrial or high noise environment for hearing protection,
you know, in accordance with health and safety guidelines for example.
Whereas you know, if we go back to earlier in

(01:37:55):
the conversation we're talking about, if I go and I
buy a set of you know, muff tech ear muffs
or three m ear muffs or peltors or something like that,
you know, I can look on the box and it
will tell me what they've been tested to.

Speaker 20 (01:38:09):
Yes, yes, and they're independently tested as well, but it's
not just the company saying these are good. It's that
it's it's been separately tested by experts.

Speaker 5 (01:38:18):
And there's an objective standard to that.

Speaker 7 (01:38:20):
That's right. Yes. The other issue to bring up, we're
thing to music on the website. Of course, not only does.

Speaker 20 (01:38:30):
Noise cancelation and the occlusion of your can i'll prevent
noise coming in, but also the sound of the music
makes it hard to hear other things, like they're saying, hey,
watch out, there's something about to run into you. Yeah,
so there's another danger there as well, which isn't so
much hearing but is also real.

Speaker 5 (01:38:50):
Certainly, I'm aware of some sites where, you know, site
foreman or health and safety people have said to people
working on the site, I'm sorry, you just can't wear
that type of hearing protection. If you're have then got
like I've got bluetooth, you must. And so I'll listen
to a podcast and those sorts of things. I'll listen
to the show while I'm working with them. But I'd

(01:39:13):
like to think that I have it down at a
level one that it's not causing hearing loss because I'm
blasting music into my ears under and also that I'm
still aware of my surroundings because it's a high risk environment, right,
you do need to be able to be alerted.

Speaker 20 (01:39:27):
Yeah, yeah, And you raise a good point there about
the blasting the music at such a high level the
mass as your harm. So that's the other side of
the flip side of the noise canceling headphones, which is
of course because they do reduce the external sound level
coming into your ear, so it doesn't tend to drown

(01:39:48):
out your music.

Speaker 7 (01:39:49):
Right.

Speaker 20 (01:39:49):
People do tend to listen to their music at lower
levels through them, so that's a good thing in the
terms of one of the things we're worried about is
that the prevalence of earbuds might mean that people are
damaging their ears from that through industrial or toolofs or whatever.

Speaker 5 (01:40:10):
Oh look, it's just such a fascinating field. And I
just in terms of, you know, if you were to
offer up some general advice, and I like you really
a comment. You know, there are older ear muffs and
that sort of thing were often uncomfortable. The padding wasn't great,
the fit wasn't particularly good, they were heavy or they
were bulky, and so on the ones that I wear,

(01:40:31):
you know, I find them quite comfortable. I've got some
that are much bigger for high, really high noise environments,
others that are a little bit more SLIMLW those sorts
of things. So I just I just find it. If
you were just to add, you know, if you wanted
to say to someone you're starting out life in the trade,
what do you do with your ears? What would you say?

Speaker 20 (01:40:51):
Okay, well, I'd say you protect them because of that
issue that once they get damaged, they don't get fixed.

Speaker 7 (01:41:00):
So you've got what you've.

Speaker 20 (01:41:02):
Got, and if you let them get exposed to too
much noise, it'll it'll go. And of course the other
exposures you've got to noise, you know, you're the things
you do for fun, listening to music, going to concerts,
or going out dancing or whatever else you like to
do that will also cause you damage, you know, a
nightcap one hundred decimals. You've also got to factor all

(01:41:26):
that stuff in, and so the more you can do
to protect your ears from sound that isn't very nice
to listen to. Let's be honest, no one enjoys listening.
I don't enjoy listening to the sound of powertools. That's
not a presence kind of sound, so you may as
well just cut it out as you possibly can and
protect her from it. Your idea, and you know, to me,

(01:41:48):
I really like that if you if it's a safe
environment to be listening to some music, getting things that
are designed for the purpose Bluetooth must so that there
they are, you know how much they're protecting you, and
you can still listen to the music through them. I
mean that seems to be a best of both worlds
kind of scenari to me, So that'd be one piece

(01:42:09):
of advice. The other thing you can do is to
find out what your sound levels are. Everyone's got a smartphone.
I mean I've got an iPhones. I've got an app
from that runs on that which is the American equivalent
of work SOACES called niosh. It's in io S National

(01:42:31):
Institutes of Occupational Safety and Health, and it made a
nice sound level meter app is pretty accurate. It can
be calibrated but on an iPhone because the systems are
the same across all the phones, they can just the
basic form of it is, you know, pretty much accurate.
I've tested against proper sound level meters and you can

(01:42:56):
measure the sound level around you, so to give you
an idea.

Speaker 7 (01:42:58):
Of what what what your actual exposure is.

Speaker 20 (01:43:00):
And if it's you know, and if it's in the
low eighties, you know, I'd say, well, you might be
okay where you're noise canceling headphones, and it's probably okay.
If it's getting up above that, then I'd say, well
you may as well, you know, put your arms on
or put.

Speaker 7 (01:43:17):
Your proper airplugs.

Speaker 20 (01:43:18):
Then yeah, and that way you know you're being protected
and so you can sort of use your common sense
a bit more once you've got the information to go on.

Speaker 5 (01:43:27):
Yeah, I guess you know. That for me takes me
back to your original one of your earlier comments around
We've got about sixteen thousand of these individual cells and
each year, right, and once they're gone, they're gone. Right,
They're not growing back. We're not frogs, we're not birds.
And I just look at that now, and I do

(01:43:47):
genuinely hope that someone listening to this, who's thinking do
I put my headphones on today? Do I put my
hearing protection on? Listens to that and goes, I've got
one chance to save my years. I'm going to take
that chance. Yeah, Yeah, fantastic. Professor David Welsh. Thank you
so much for your time. I've really enjoyed the conversation
and I think this is just some fantastic information and

(01:44:10):
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 7 (01:44:11):
Oh, cheers, Peter. It's a great pleasure.

Speaker 5 (01:44:12):
Pleasure take care. News Talks ed b rdio from one
from one doctor to another. Doctor Rudd Climb Past is
with us in just a moment. If you've got a
gardening question, call us right now. Oh eight hundred eighty ten.

Speaker 1 (01:44:26):
Eighty good measure twice God once, but maybe call Pete first.
Peter Wolfcamp, The Resident Builder, News Talks EDB. For more
from the Resident Builder with Peter Wolfcamp, listen live to
News Talks EDB on Sunday mornings from Sex, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.