The Resident Builder podcast: November 3, 2024

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Resonant Builder podcast with Peter Wolfcamp
from News Talks at b.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Our House Sizzle, even when it's done, even when the
grass is over grown in the arm, even when it
does listen to all to Bar.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
And when you're sitting at the table trying to starve.

Speaker 4 (00:39):
Caesar.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Even when we are.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Then we are well, we're late, No, not at all,
We're perfectly on time. Commentary of course of that fantastic
test match between All Black and the England's brought to
us England brought to us live and we waited for
that to wrap up, and so that's underway. Now it's

(01:04):
a chance for us to talk all things but building
and construction this morning on the program. A very good
morning and welcome along to the show. My name's Pete Wolfcamp,
the resident Builder, and this to be Frank is a
show all about your place. It is really all about
the maintenance that needs to be done the ow maybe
the extension that you'd like to add, or the compliance

(01:25):
issues that you need to resolve, or the selection of tradespeople,
or the choosing of products and items for extensions, renovations, alterations,
maintenance of your place. So if you've got a building
question of any description. Oh, eight hundred and eighty ten
eighty is the number to call. You can text as
always nine to nine two, which is ZEDBZB from your

(01:47):
mobile phone. And if you'd like to send me an email,
you're more than welcome. It is Pete, Pete Pete at
newstalksb dot co dot nz. Trust you've had a good
week politically, another interesting week in terms of building. And
I know that I've said this a couple of times,
but it keeps being proven to be true in that

(02:08):
I think I've never I can't really recall a time
in the last ten years, certainly in the ten years
that we're doing this show we're building has been as
political as it is right now. So what could be
quite a significant change in the way that buildings get consented.
It was mooted announced by the government during the course

(02:30):
of the week. This is around self certification for certain
types of buildings. We might talk a little bit more
about that. If you've got a comment about that, you're
more than welcome to join me. I was actually at
home doing a bit of paperwork on Wednesday, I think
it was when Kerry's producer called and said no, would
you like to offer up a comment? Certainly after that,

(02:51):
had a number of conversations with other people in the sector,
building surveys, building compliance offices, actually owners of a couple
of building companies around what that might look like, this
whole self certification. At this stage, I think it's really
just a headline. This is an idea that we're looking at,
but I don't know that there is a great deal

(03:12):
of detail behind that announcement. So if you want to
comment on that, that'd be absolutely great. If you've got
a project like I do, that you've got to get
underway or is underway, and maybe you just need a
little bit of advice on it, well the lines are
open for you right now. Oh eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty is the number to call. The other thing,
and this has been it's been on my sort of

(03:33):
list to do list for quite some time. Every now
and then, fairly frequently, actually, we end up talking about
fences and boundaries and the Fencing Act and these sorts
of things, and I've often said, look, I'm going to
go out and find someone who's an expert in this
and get them on the show. Well I've done it.
I've done it. I've finally cracked it. Ben Thompson from
Pigeon Judge Lawyers, he's director there, will join me after

(03:57):
eight o'clock and I sent him a brief list of
sort of pretty common questions that I've picked up from
all of your questions over the years to him during
the course of the week. He came back very succinctly
and said, Yep, that'd be great. We'll talk about that
after eight o'clock today. So if you have a specific
question either about fencing or the Property Act, so we'll

(04:17):
start with fencing. I think that'll take us most of
the time that we've got from eight to late thirty
or thereabouts, but then we could also start getting into
some of the Property Act legislation that impacts often on
relationships between neighbors. You know, if my neighbor's tree falls
over and damages my property, is that my responsibility in

(04:39):
terms of insurance? Is it my neighbors? Can I go
to a neighbor and say, hey, look, I'd like you
to cut that tree down or trim that tree because
it's blocking the view that I once used to enjoy.
We'll see if we get to that. But we're going
to start with the Fencing Act today. What is it?
How do I go about? You know, if you want
to approach a neighbor, for example, to add a new

(05:02):
fence or to replace a fence that's in an import condition.
What are your requirements in terms of the Fencing Act?
What do you have to do in order to get
that contribution? Because that's set out in the law as well.
What's the contribution? What's a typical fence in New Zealand.
We'll do all of that, all of those sorts of
questions with Ben Thompson Lawyer after eight o'clock this morning.

(05:26):
We'll touch base with Mike Olds before eight. But if
you've got questions, the number is eight hundred eighty ten
eighty slightly different start to the morning. Obviously, I was
going to say our kickoff was a bit later because
well we had the rugby which was awesome and a
fantastic result and certainly nail biting and can I say
just quietly there was some very loud language here in

(05:47):
the studio in the in those last couple of minutes
of the game. Anyway, the All Blacks have ended up
being victorious in that we will have a full bulletin
at seven o'clock for you. Eight hundred eighty ten eighty
is the number to call if you've got a project
on that you would like to talk about. The lines
are open. Eight hundred eighty eighty is the number taking

(06:08):
your texts as well nine two ninety two and your
emails on Pete at newstalksb dot co dot nz. It
is twenty six and a half minutes after six. We'll
take a break. We'll come back with your calls. Call
me now. We're going to get busy later in the show.
Now's the perfect time to call. Eight hundred eighty ten eighty.
You're with News Talks HEDB, Pete Wolfcamp resident build out

(06:28):
with you this morning. The lines are open. Now is
a great time to call because we're going to get
busy later on the show. Eight hundred eighty ten eighty
is that number to call.

Speaker 5 (06:36):
Quick.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Couple of texts that have come in. Short question, potentially
long answer is my response to Shane. So the text
is recess or not windows for thermal efficiency cost versus benefit.
Great text, very succinct. Look. I would say that one

(06:57):
of the things that in sort of I suppose the
building science discussions that we have at the moment are
all about where we play the windows, and that's all
about the insulation. So if you think about our typical
timber framing, our typical timber construction in New Zealand, we've
got a wall, we packed that full of insulation. Then

(07:19):
typically we have a cavity baton on the outside. Then
we have some sort of cladding, and again typically we
put our windows over the cladding. And that kind of
building methodology has come in large part from the leaky
building crisis. So when that happened, we changed the way
that we did cladding, often added cavities that allow for

(07:39):
drainage and drying and those sorts of things, and then
we just kept on doing what we'd always done and
pluk our windows in on the outside. Particularly when you're
talking often with aluminum extrusions, so you've got that profile
of the extrusion that covers the opening. Let's say, so
you push that into the opening and do it that way.
But what that does do is it creates a gap

(08:00):
around the perimeter where if you've got decent glazing I
double glazing, and it's good double glazing, that's your insulation
for you glass. And then what happens is that sits
outboard of where your insulation is in your wall, and
that's what we're talking. That's the conventional way of installing joinery.
The other way of doing it is to recess the window,

(08:21):
to push the window back towards where you've got all
of that insulation. If you're building in a conventional sense,
to ensure that you don't have this big gap around
the outside which has little to no insulation value at all.
So if you can keep your glazing close in line,
your double glazing unit with all of that insulation in
line with the insulation that's typically in your wall framing,

(08:43):
that is better. And yes, in order to do that,
you need to have a different flashing suite around the
perimeter of the window that allows the cladding to be
out and your window to be in. That's what a
recess window is. Look, I think I don't know that
there is actually a tremendous additional cost in doing that.
It might be some additional flashings, but most manufactor is

(09:06):
now have got flashing sweets that allow for that. So
it's not like it's new. It's not a new idea anymore.
So I think there is some there's enough, it's become
common enough that a solution, i e. A cost effective
solution has been found for that. So and then what

(09:28):
you do get, and this is my long winded way
of saying, the greatest benefit is you get the benefit
of that every single day in that house for the
life of that house. So if you look at a
cost benefit over twenty years, thirty years, forty fifty years
of occupation in that building, and you don't have that

(09:48):
thermal loss around your joinery because we've done it in
a conventional way, then hand on heart, I'd say, yes,
there is a massive benefit to doing it. Oh eight
hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call. Funnily enough,
I'm actually going to see a joinery fabricator tomorrow who's
joinery sweet is designed to do exactly that. So I'll

(10:08):
have a chance to look around the showroom and play
with some ideas when I'm out there tomorrow. I'll let
you know how that gets on next week. Oh eight
hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number to call. Chris,
Very good morning morning. It's a bit windy, to be fair, Yeah,
I tell you what, hang on, I wonder if we

(10:35):
how does it sound as are it's okay, it's no good,
it's not good. Okay. We might try and get you
back with another connection rather than something that I can
hear all the wind and that, but I can't really
hear you, Chris. Unfortunately, for those people who might be
doing the marathon this morning, good luck to you. I
know that the first runners took off at about six o'clock.
I know that get down to Devonport, where I happened

(10:57):
to live, was a particularly torturous route this morning, with
the various road closures that combined with the the roadworks
or the infrastructure upgrades that have been going on for
a while. So it took a little while to get
out out of the shryer this morning. But anyway, good
luck to you if you're out doing the marathon this morning.
I'm not sure. I can't imagine someone doing the marathon

(11:18):
and listening to talk back on the way. If you are,
great and good luck to you. But I would have
thought you'd have pumped up music or something like that,
or something very calming to keep you going while you're
running over the Harbor Bridge, which you'll be running up
and heading south into a reasonably stiff southerly breeze. I
can assure you looking at the flags as I drove

(11:41):
over this morning. But good luck to you if you're
out there doing the marathon. Beautiful sunrise as well as
you leave Devenport, head through Takapoona, up and over the bridge,
out along the waterfront and then back into the city.
Good luck to you. Oh, eight hundred and eighty ten
eighty is the number to call. A couple of other
texts that have come through. Hey, just got a quote
for some building repair, two workers at one hundred and

(12:01):
sixty dollars per hour, but I know the apprentice gets
paid thirty dollars an hours. This normal funny. I got
a text from from Ends yesterday as well along similar lines. Gosh,
I didn't know that such and such was as expensive,
and you know, I'm not sure that we can afford it,
and things like that. Look, in the end, that's why

(12:22):
we've got competition.

Speaker 6 (12:23):
Right.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
If you don't think that's a good price, so you
don't think you're getting value for money, then you can
get another price. But certainly hourly rates at around seventy
dollars an hour, eighty dollars an hour for a leading
carpenter it's probably about right. Apprentice gets paid thirty, they're
probably charged out at forty. You know, it's probably not
that far off. It really does depend on what sort

(12:47):
of work they're doing, how long they're going to be there,
and do you have some guidance as to you know,
how long. Like one hundred and twenty dollars an hour
for two workers is fine if it's a week's work,
but what happens if it comes two weeks work or
four weeks work or something like that. So I think
talk to your contractor and see what you can do.
It seems like we've got Chris as Mike sorted out.

(13:10):
But Chris is gone. He's back. We'll come to Chris
in just a moment. We'll take it. Actually, another text
that's just come through. I'm replacing my ceiling insulation in
my Telpo home. What rating would you recommend for maximum
results before the benefits start to tail off? Look, I
think from all of the reading that I've done is

(13:32):
that I think that anywhere above sort of four point
eight or five and the benefits are marginal. Now, Topo
does get quite cold over the winter, so there is
you know, definitely some benefit in going over and above
the minimum requirements. But you know, at the moment the
code says all at ceiling insulation. This is the upgrade

(13:54):
to H one that came in in November of last year,
so it's basically a year old. Now, is that you
need to go six point six in the ceiling?

Speaker 4 (14:04):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
I've struggled to find anyone who says that R six
point six is of significant improvement over something like R five.
So I think if you're doing a retrue perspective upgrade,
you've got some insulation in there, you want to add
some more. I think if you aim to get to
around R five, you'll have plenty of benefit. Bearing in
mind that what you're trying to create as a thermal

(14:26):
envelope so the whole building. So if all you're doing
is adding more insulation to the ceiling but not doing
anything anywhere else in the building, there's not that much benefit.
But if it's well insulated everywhere else and you add
to the ceiling, that will give you some benefit. So
good luck on that one, Chris, We've got your back.
How are you doing way better?

Speaker 5 (14:45):
Way better?

Speaker 4 (14:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (14:51):
Yeah. I'm looking at purchasing a property and it's got
a basically a three bait implement shed that's got two
of the baits closed, and I'm wondering what sort of
nightmy would it be to turn that into a dwelling.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
Well, you need to get a building consent and then
you need to comply with the building code. So that's
all about you know that it's it's suitable for habitation.
Let's say it becomes a safe habitable space, so to
be you know, is there waterproofing underneath the slab or
is there a slab at all? If you're going to
do one, you'd want vapor control. You'll need insulation in

(15:27):
the exterior walls, you need the right amount of ventilation
and extraction in the building. You'd need to have you know,
sanitary fittings done to the code, all of those sorts
of things. But yeah, it's a building consent, that's all.

Speaker 5 (15:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just well I understood all that, all
that sort of you know, because it's basically at the
moment that's just a dirt's law. So that's no problem.
I can I can work from that insulation, you have
no problem. But that's just an exterior clouding. Yes, I'm
more worried about things like the possibility of not having

(16:04):
any like barrier in the in the poles in the
ground themselves, and the fact that it doesn't have like
a building paper like that on exterior clouding.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, I was just thinking about that. That is where
it's going to get tricky, isn't it that you've essentially
got I presume is it timber or steel poles? Timber poles,
timber poles, some sort of whalings or you know, running
over those, and then metal cladding fixed the outside of it. Look,
you know, if it is metal cladding, and hopefully it

(16:37):
might be screw fixed rather than fixed with nails, you
might find that in the you know, given all of
the work that you're going to do in order to
turn it into a habitable space, actually just unscrewing the
cladding and maybe string and just putting the building paper on,
which is the vapor barrier that you need on the outside,

(16:58):
and then refixing the cladding. In the biggest scheme of things,
it's actually not that much work.

Speaker 5 (17:04):
No, No more concerned about the poles and how they're
in the ground and whether or not they could be
like a woking issue with moisture coming up?

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Are the poles set in concrete.

Speaker 5 (17:20):
I'm not one hundred percent sure.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Okay, that's interesting.

Speaker 5 (17:29):
What sort of difference would that make it it's concrete
or just just dug into the dirt.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Well, what I'm thinking is, let's say they've you know,
they've drilled a five hundred diameter hole and they've dropped
a three hundred mili pole in there, and then they've
concreted it around it, and then that concrete comes all
the way to the surface. So when you pour your
new slab, you could effectively pour it onto the concrete.
So the concrete is protecting the pole from whacking up

(17:55):
moisture out of the ground, right, you know, in that sense,
it's it's ceiling and you can do There's there's various
bonding agents that you can use between the two pause.
So the original paw for the posts, the grouting of
the post, and then you slab and that'll stop moisture
from coming through that join there. And then if there

(18:16):
is concrete around it, then you could probably get some
advice to say, look, the actual chance of moisture wicking
through there is limited. The other thing would be is
if there was a potential for moisture to be waking
up through the post. Is that if you then allowed
a little bit of ventilation, you could manage that. But
I think in all reality it's such a low risk

(18:41):
that I'd like to think that in terms of compliance
there would be a pathway through that, right, I mean,
is there any evidence right now of moisture at the
bottom of the posts?

Speaker 6 (18:53):
No?

Speaker 5 (18:53):
Well, the shed itself is it's not even a year old.

Speaker 7 (18:57):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 5 (19:01):
Slightly raised area, so it's in quite a well situated
places water drainage, and it's a very very very well
quick to give a shed.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
So it would be interesting to go if the shed's
only a year old, would be interesting to go back
to the manufacturer and say, hey, look, do you ever
make these into habitable spaces and and do you have
a compliance pathway for that? They may already have plans
and specification.

Speaker 5 (19:29):
Yeah, yes they do, because I originally looked at a
property with the other sheet all right, and I run
the company up and it happened to be the same manufacturer, Fantastic,
and they actually, yeah, when you order it, you can
actually order it, right, it's a dwelling and there they've
got certain things that they change.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Back to my point about the way in which the
clouding is fixed. So if it's a year old, guaranteed
it's been screw fixed, right texture, So you're backing your
text screw out and adding your vapor barrier and then
putting you could you could reuse all the sheets, right
So I I would say, yes, you need a consent,
but hopefully the consent shouldn't be too problematic.

Speaker 5 (20:11):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah? And would would the majority of
that work have to be done by am.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
What's the new tube building practitioner? If it's a consent,
if you need a consent for it, which you will do,
then that work needs to be done or supervised by
an LBP. However, there is an owner builder exemption, so
if you're the owner of the property, which you are,
you can apply or you can notify counsel that you
intend to use this exemption and then do the work

(20:43):
yourself if that was your intention, and and then it
just gets recorded on the limb that the work was
done by someone who's not an LVP. But you do
have an exemption.

Speaker 5 (20:55):
For that, right okay? And would that just entil having
more inspections.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Or it should?

Speaker 6 (21:03):
It?

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Should? You still have to build it in accordance with
the plan and to the Building Code. But it just
means that when the Council Inspector comes out, you just
show them the certificate and say, in this instance, I'm
going to be the builder. What they've done is I
guess when the LBP scheme came out, a lot of
people myself included, were you know, worried a bit that
it would end that ability for New Zealanders to do

(21:28):
their own work, right, to build their own house. And
that was never the intention of the Act right or
to the changes to the Building Act, so it's there.
The I suppose the thing that stops people using that
as a way of not bothering to get licensed is
that you can only do it. I think you can
only use it once every three years or something like that.

(21:48):
So it stops people. You know, if you said, well, look,
I can't be bothered becoming a lot an LBP, but
I do want to go and build a whole bunch
of houses where you can't do that right, you have
to be an LBP for that. So yeah, if you
wanted to do the work yourself, you can apply for
an exemption. I guess the other pathway that I know
a number of people have taken is you may well
contract an LBP to do, you know, some of the

(22:11):
building work, even if they are contracted to you as
a supervisor, and then they're prepared to sign it off
for you. But they have to be able to confidently
say I supervise the work so that I'm sure that
it meets the requirements of the code.

Speaker 5 (22:26):
Perfect, Okay, good luck.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
It sounds awesome. Every time someone rings me and goes, oh,
I've got this shed, you know, and it's three bays
and I'm just looking at my little shed at home going,
I get shit envy. I get shit envy. All right,
that sounds awesome. All right, Please do take care, Chris, bye,
I do. It's probably not many things that I get

(22:49):
envied about, but that's one of them. Radio eight hundred
eighty ten eighty is the number to call if you've
got a question. The lines are open. The number is
eight hundred eighty ten eighty. In the next hour. Will
catch up with my colds from Razine Construction Systems. You
know that a couple of weeks ago, two weeks ago,
we ran a comp petition tied in nicely with the
America's Cup for three Lego models of the Emirates Team

(23:12):
New Zealand Yacht. Fantastic Lego kits. They've even had like
moveable you could move the sale. It always had all
the mechanics in it. Anyway, three very happy winners. So
those Lego kits have been sent out by the good
people at Razine Construction to our three lucky winners. So
thanks for taking part. We had a tremendous number of
entries and enjoy putting those Lego kits together. Eight hundred

(23:37):
eighty ten eighty is the number to call. Will come
back to building well, not with Lego but with real
stuff in just a moment. Your news talk sai'd be
if you've got a building question, the lines are open.
The number to call eight hundred eighty ten eighty. So
we talked a little bit this morning about recessing windows
for thermal efficiency. It's one of those things that it's

(23:58):
there is a lot of information online at the moment,
whether it's on the brand's website, whether it's in the
super home movement. There's a lot of sort of threads
of discussion about it on various platforms. So it's if
you're looking at building and it's interesting I saw a

(24:18):
sort of an initial set of drawings for a building
consent for a brand new build the other day, and
one of the things that I the client, the owner
of the property, said, I'll just have a look at
the drawings and let me know any thoughts, and it
was classic. One of the things that they hadn't done,
which kind of surprised me, is to recess the joinery

(24:40):
so that you get more thermal efficiency. So this is
all about trying to keep your insulation that you get
from your double glazing, because it's pretty much standard these
days in line with the insulation that you might have
in your walls. Now it's slightly different if you end
up with a system where you've got outsulation, then potentially
it's not as much of an issue there. But ideally

(25:02):
our windows should be recessed so that we keep it
in line with where the is typically in the wall space.
But obviously building consents you're still seeing them with I
guess not necessarily the best practice involved. And then other questions,
A lot of question about sort of insulation this morning,
in a sense replacing the sealing insulation in the home

(25:24):
in Tupo. What would you do in terms of maximum
amount of insulation. Is there any benefit of going to
R six point six as required by the code? No,
I don't think so. I think that once you get
above about R five you've probably got the maximum benefit
that you would expect out of your ceiling insulation. Certainly

(25:45):
there is a benefit of having more than just two
point seven, which used to be the old standard, more
than three point six. Yes, there's probably some benefit, much
more than five, Not really, And then a couple of
texts come in around the costs of construction these days.
In fact, I went and cleared out my post office
box the other day. The Brands magazine or the build magazine,

(26:08):
which comes out from Brands every month. The big topic
there is building affordability or housing affordability and some of
the complexity around that, and thankfully we've acknowledged the fact
that it is actually quite complicated. But there should still
be some solutions to building affordability. So one hundred and

(26:28):
twenty bucks, someone's just been quoted to workers one hundred
and twenty dollars an hour. They what they've said in
the text is, but I know the apprentice gets paid
around thirty dollars an hour. Is this normal? Well, if
the apprentice is getting paid thirty, he's probably being charged
or she is being charged out at I don't know,
maybe forty. That leaves the other worker being charged out

(26:50):
eighty dollars an hour. Depending on the qualification and the
competency of the person, that might be an acceptable rate.
That's why you get more than one.

Speaker 6 (27:00):
Quote.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
Oh, eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call.
If you've got a building question, that'd be great to
hear from you. If you've got a specific question about
the Fencing Act, for example, then feel free to text
those questions through to me as well, because and it
is something that we talk about a fair amount on
this program in terms of the Fencing Act. What is

(27:22):
the Fencing Act? How do you use the Fencing Act?
How do you respond to a neighbor who perhaps approaches
you and says, hey, look, I want this contribution to
the cost of replacing the fence. What's a standard fence?
How do you use the Fencing Act to get a contribution.
How do you respond to a neighbor who might be
seeking a contribution. What's the maximum amount that you need

(27:43):
to contribute? What's a standard fence? All of these are
actually legal questions, So joining me after eight o'clock this morning,
I've got Ben Thompson, who is a lawyer specializing in
property law, in particular the Fencing Act. He's going to
join me. We're going to have a general chat around that.
But if you've got any specific questions about the Fencing Act,

(28:04):
maybe even about some property issues. You know a neighbor
that plants a tree and then decides they're never going
to trim it, and you lose a view that you've
enjoyed for a number of years. What are your rights
or under the Property Act in terms of going to
the neighbor and saying, hey, look, how would you feel
about keeping that tree trimmed so that I can keep
my view? What's your actual rights in terms of enjoying

(28:30):
a view? So we might talk about that as well.
But we will definitely be talking about the Fencing Act
with Ben Thompson after the News at eight, and if
you've got any specific questions about that, feel free to
text them through. I mentioned this morning that leaving my
place the marathon, the Auckland Marathon is underweigh now. I
think the first runners took off at about six o'clock.

(28:52):
I think people in my household. Could hear the hooter
go at about six? Certainly there are a number of
road closures around. And then I was thinking. I sort
of said to people, hey, good luck for the marathon.
But I'm not sure that many people would listens talk
back what you would listen to? I hope you do.
But would you be listening to that while running a marathon?
I'm not so sure. Anyway. A couple of texts I

(29:13):
always run with news Talk SAIDB I get that, I
get going for a run, I listened to it when
I'm going for a walk, and those sorts of things.
But do I would I run with zid B? Would
I run a marathon listening to ZIDB?

Speaker 5 (29:24):
Why not?

Speaker 2 (29:25):
You want to tune into the news. You want to
see what happens with the all Blacks. Anyway, if you're
out there slogging your way through the marathon, good luck
to you today. It looks like a fairly decent old
day to be doing it, but a reasonably stiff breeze.
As you're working your way up the Harbor Bridge heading
for the city, it looked like a fairly brisk southerly,

(29:45):
so that'll be right in your face as you're heading
up the incline of the Harbor Bridge today, I would
imagine that the sort of the leading runners would have been,
they would have been over the bridge probably half an
hour ago. Radio we're back after new Sport and weather.
Oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call,
or you can text nine two nine two for all

(30:06):
of your building questions and again any specific questions around
the Fencing Act or property law. Our lawyer is going
to join us your news talks. He'd be welcome back
to the program. This is the resident builder on Sunday.
I'm Pete wolf Camp, resident builder, and it is an
opportunity for you to talk all things building and construction,

(30:26):
and that could include contractors and even contractors' rates. I'm
always a little reluctant to talk too much at too
much detail around rates and so on. In a general sense,
I'm more than happy to discuss it. But you know,
ultimately it's always it's like real estate. There's got to
be a willing buyer and a willing seller, and if

(30:46):
you've worked out a rate that is acceptable to both
of you, then that's what the rate is. You know,
there's no standardization. It's it's not like an employment, let's say,
where you expect that income or salary of a person
doing this type of work is around this rate, and

(31:07):
it's sort of standard over the industry. In the end,
contractors to some degree can charge whatever they like, and
if you are happy to pay for it, then you'll
do so because you've accepted the quote or you've accepted
the estimate, and the work will proceed. And the reason
that I mentioned that this is that one of the
earlier texts I got was, hey, look, I've just had

(31:29):
a quote. It works out to about one hundred and
two workers one hundred and twenty dollars per hour, you know,
and they're looking at that, going, oh, hang on, I
think the apprentice is being paid about thirty dollars an hour.
Does that seem Is it normal? Was the question. So
it's one hundred and twenty dollars plus GST was the question,

(31:50):
Which is you know, is that a reasonable rate? Well,
it depends on the quality of the work, the workers,
their level of competency, you know, are they quick?

Speaker 6 (32:00):
You know?

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Do you want to pay sort of eighty dollars an
hour for a tradesperson who ready cracks through the work?
Or do you want to pay the seventy dollars an
hour for someone who takes twice as long. It's all
of those sorts of things. Does get quite tricky, doesn't it. Oh, eight,
one hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number to call.
And here this is another classic text. But I don't
have a crystal ball. Unfortunately, Good morning, Pete. The house

(32:23):
next to us has been sold to developer. Will they
will remove the house and put two new dwellings on
the site. At the moment there is a pit of
sparm hedge on the boundary and it's lovely and quite
natural question. Can they take the hedge down and put
a fence up? Can I request the fence to go
on their side of the hedging so the hedging can
be kept. If the hedging was to come down and

(32:43):
they want a fence, do I need to contribute? Well, Christine,
that's fantastic question. I'm not going to answer it, but
I will put that to Ben Thompson, who is going
to join us in the next hour of the program.
Because he is a property lawyer or a lawyer specializing
in property, and in particular he's going to be able
to answer specific questions around the fencing Act. So stay tuned,
Christine and I will put that question to him. Which

(33:06):
taking your calls? Oh, eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
is the number, Jane A very good morning.

Speaker 8 (33:11):
Oh good morning, listen. I'm a great listener, but I
haven't been listening this morning because I don't want to
know the score of the ORBUK.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
I will stop being informative and tell everybody I won't
say a word.

Speaker 8 (33:25):
Oh that's good to see. I've got it recorded and
I want to wait. So I'm just wondering. I know
you went over to see the Block Australians months ago. Yes,
it is, and I'm wondering we obviously aren't going to
get it on TV three or I.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Can't answer that because I don't know. I would imagine
that we probably will get to see it.

Speaker 4 (33:49):
It was.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
It was tremendously popular. I know that in Australia it's
almost at the end of its broadcasting run. I don't
believe that they as an when I went, they were
in production, so they filmed the show, they record the show,
and then they broadcast it. That broadcast things on at
the moment, and the auction I think is probably in

(34:10):
the near future, maybe the next couple of weeks or so,
and typically what happens is once that happens, then we
maybe get to see it here in New Zealand. After that,
I hope we do. You know, it was it was
a great experience to go and have a look at it.
The scale and size of it is phenomenal, and judging
by some of the stuff I've seen on social media,

(34:32):
it's been another controversial season for the Block Australia.

Speaker 8 (34:38):
So I'm disappointed because I watched every year and I thought,
oh so disappointing that we haven't got it.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
I wouldn't say that we well, I haven't seen anything announced,
but it wouldn't surprise me if we do see it
in the next couple of weeks or months coming on
to TV, and I certainly.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
Hope I do.

Speaker 8 (34:56):
So do I thought you might be a bit.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
More than that, and I've kind of been saving up.
While I was over there, I had the opportunity to
spend not a lot of time, but a little bit
of time with got A Cam, the presenter and host
of the show, and then just before I left, I
grabbed him for a ten minute chat. So I've still
got that interview and once the either the series finishes

(35:19):
in Australia or when it starts here, I'll put that
on the radio and you can have a tune in
to my conversation with him. Delightful guy, very hospitable, had
a really good chat bit of a catch up, So
stay tuned for that one.

Speaker 8 (35:35):
Oh well, let's hope we get It's trouble.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
All the best joke. See then, oh eight hundred eighty
ten eighty. Remember I've got a Ben Thompson Lawyers specifically
to talk about the Fencing Act. If you've got any
text questions just like the one from Christine that you'd
like to send it through, you can do that to
nine to nine two. Good morning to you, John.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Good morning Pete, Pete. I've pulled my kitchen out and
where the dishwasher was. The water leaked at one stage
because we used to tablet in the dishwasher and apparently
it all foamed up and stopped and stopped the switch
inside from activating, stop the water flowing into it. And

(36:30):
at one point the water's leaped into the particle board flooring.
So a small area that's about it's shaped like a pea.
It's about two hundred by one fifty, from one fifty
to one hundred and tapering down to mill at the
bottom of the pea, and then the water's moved along. Sorry,

(36:55):
that pea area has I've scraped it all out, all
the soft stuff out, so it's about half of the
original depth, so that there's probably a ten mil hole
in there, and the water is trained to cross the
floor to a small area that's all a little bit dodgy,

(37:16):
not too bad. I've scraped it all off down to
where it's a lot firmer, and I'm thinking I should
use something like a timber lock to lock the fibers
in and then I can paint it and maybe fill
it over with something like that contact filler contract FILA.

(37:36):
I'm thinking, what do you reckon?

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Is it reasonable access? Like obviously, once you've taken the
dish washer out, you can get to that area.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
Oh yeah, I can read the whole chin, the whole
floor of is all.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Take the whole kitchen out.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yeah yeah, because well the kitchen was nearly fifty years old,
you know, put a new kitchen. Look natural fact, we're
moving the kitchen to a different area, sure, and where
it's going to be it's probably a kind of the
area is probably going to be underneath a couch that
we're going to put there. Look, I think the whole

(38:18):
particle board flow down all across, and I'm thinking I
should paint it or to seal the particle board.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, Look, I think my approach would be the area
that's obviously had some decay from the water. I would actually,
if you're going to end up either carpeting or doing
some sort of covering over the top of it, I
would just drop the skill saw through it, cut out
a section of the floor, you know, use a multi
tool to clean up the corners, fix a couple of

(38:48):
pleats underneath, and drop a new piece of flooring in there.
You could always flush it off with a bit of
floor leveling compound and then do your carpet or flooring
over the top of it. Because in the ten millimeters
of old particle board is you know, someone could potentially
put their foot through that, or the corner of a couch,

(39:09):
you know, the leg of a couch or something like that.
So I just think for all of the effort that
you're going through to scrape it out and treat it
and all the rest of it, I given that you're
going to have a new covering, I just dropped the skill,
sew through it, cut out that section, drop another piece
of flooring, and carry on from there. It'll be way
quicker with the.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Flowing on my painting of using those those planks shi
fit together on topp would they have enough They would
have enough strength and it wouldn't. So not to worry
too much about the softness of the board underneath, which
is only.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
I'm looking at it going. You know, ideally you want
to remove anything that's that's rotten, because the other thing
that will probably happen is that even if you remove
the soft area, the area below it will probably continue
to decay even if you treat it, because that's just
the nature of old particle board. So and if you
and I were lined up on the starter's blocks and

(40:06):
we went right, the intention is to finish this little job.
I reckon I could get in there with a multi
tool and a bit of you know, replacement ply or
particle board, chop it out and have that done while
you're still scraping out the last of it. So I
just think speed wise it would be a quicker job
as well, just to cut it out, drop a new.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
Piece particle board. The particle hoard's not easy to come
by these days because they've dropping a bit of.

Speaker 2 (40:34):
Dropping here boring, Yeah, just dropping a bit of plywood.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
Of plywood.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah, and even you know, if you can't get to
the undersite to put in some noogs or something like that,
I just screw a cleat underneath it, screw it through
from the top, drop your new piece, and blew it.
Job done. That's what I would do. Anyway, what you're
doing is that's okay, but I think it'll be faster
and slightly more reliable just to cut it out, drop
a new piece and over the top. Good luck with

(41:02):
the whole process, John, sounds like a good project. Oh
eight hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number of
all mark A very good morning to you.

Speaker 6 (41:10):
Thank good morning, Peter mate. I have an issue on
the on the building myself. But I've had a steel
framed shed constructed on a on a property that belongs
to a friend of mine, and I came to start
putting the windows, and once the shed was enclosed, because

(41:31):
the company didn't have anyone with the skills to actually
put the windows. And that this is going to be dwelling. Yes,
the sheds had to be disassembled and taken right back
down to this lab because there wasn't a put more
parallel line than the entire building on a ringing up
to see who does the shed belong to? Those materials?

(41:54):
Once it's must have been disassembled and everything, the company's
coming back to replace it.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Oh, I see. So, So the situation is the person
that you know, neighbor friend has contracted a company to
assemble a steel shed on site. Have they paid for that?
Oh yep, yep, so they paid for it. Then they've
realized that it was poorly built, and the company is

(42:23):
the company that originally supplied and built it, are coming back.
They're going to take it down and effectively replace it
with a new building.

Speaker 6 (42:33):
Well they got they got me to put up the
new one. So it's all totally framed up again. This
time it's all the level and bum and square. I'm
just wondering about the old materials.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, interesting because technically, well no, if if your friend
has paid for it, then I guess they own what
is now surplus materials. And if the contractor did, they want.

Speaker 6 (43:03):
To take the progress payment, right cupboard.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Look the simplest way to me would be for the
client to ring the contractor and say, look, there is
materials left over. Do you intend to remove them? They'll
probably go no, because it's not worth anything to us.

Speaker 6 (43:25):
Then they know that yeah, they want to remove them,
but they could be useful.

Speaker 5 (43:33):
This is a rural.

Speaker 6 (43:34):
Property and there's enough to put up another.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Shed, right they.

Speaker 6 (43:40):
Actually, yeah, the contracts taking advantage of the slady.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
But if the contractor has come back remediated the building
by supplying the materials, and I presume paying you the
labor or who's paid you to do.

Speaker 6 (43:56):
The work, yep, they paid you.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Right, so they have delivered on their contract, which is
to put up a shed in the appropriate manner, let's say,
and they've got you to do that. But the materials
I'm guessing are still theirs. You know, Like if you
did a job for a client and there was well,

(44:21):
if you quoted it, let's say, and you had a
couple of sticks of four to two left over at
the end of it, you would take those with you, Yep.
I would look at it that way that if there's
you know, portal legs or frames or gussets or bits
of material that are left over, they would go back
with the contractor because they're surplus to requirements and they're

(44:46):
not a benefit for the client. They're the contractors. I
would have thought you would have thought it, yeah, because
I'm struggling to in my own mind try and justify
you being able to take them given that there's no deficit,
you know, in the sense that the contractor has come back,

(45:07):
they've done the remediation, they've built or had built as shed.
So any surplus materials remain the contractors because you've only
paid once for it. If they said, look, you've got
to pay again, then yes, the other materials are yours.
But as long as your your friend has only paid
once for the shed, then any surplus material surely should

(45:28):
be the contractors.

Speaker 6 (45:32):
Right, Okay, that's how I say.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
But I mean, look, you know, maybe it's if you're
on good terms with the lawyer, might or your your
friend is. It'd be worth phoning and just saying and
they'll have looked through the contract. But I would have
thought that it should go back to the contractor. Right, Okay, nice, tame,
all the very best. We're going to take short break
if you'd like to join us, and i'd love to

(45:55):
hear from you. It is eight hundred and eighty ten
eighty is the number to call. Remember taking your specific
questions around the Fencing Act, because we've got a lawyer
who specializes in this joining us after the eight o'clock
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(46:16):
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(47:00):
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dot nz, slash masterflow you and news talk zib. If
you've got questions of a building nature, we can take
your calls on that. We're talking a little bit about
contractors and rates, a bit of a tricky area because yeah,

(47:23):
for reasons that I'll explain the moment, Liz, Good morning
to you.

Speaker 9 (47:27):
Oh morning, Peter. I just have a question about a
window that's been installed at a large double based window.
So I accepted the quote. I paid fifty percent. The
window was made, the window has now been installed, and

(47:52):
a builder whom I know commented, you know, asked how
it had gone. Had they installed a wand bar? Where
is sel tray? And I said, have no idea. He
came around and had a look and said that they
have actually done an average job. And I met with

(48:16):
him and he pointed out a number of things that
are wrong. And I don't know if you want me
to go go into any detail, but we got on
the phone with the contractor and discussed the issues, and

(48:41):
I stepped in and the chap was going to order
a larger what do you call what's the name of
the thing at the top of the window, and I
stepped in and I said, look, please, before you go
ahead and order anything or make anything, I'm really not

(49:06):
sure what I need to think. Whether you know I'll
have you back to finish the work. Yeah, I've actually
lost all trust in him, and legally I don't. I'm
still owing fifty percent. Legally, I don't know where I stand.
You know, people I've spoken to said I need to

(49:27):
give the person the opportunity to come back and rectify,
but I don't trust to guy. Yeah, and it's not
a small amount of money that I'm owing.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
So so, just a couple of quick questions. Was the
window that was installed it was not just the glazing
was obviously a whole new window. And did it go
into an existing opening or did they create a new
opening for that to be installed into.

Speaker 9 (49:57):
Yeah, remove the old window and it was it was
a replacement, right.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
And the old joinery was aluminium, I presume, yep. And
the new joinery is aluminium correct, yep? And did the
old joinery have a wands bar which is a reinforcing
bar that goes underneath it.

Speaker 9 (50:21):
No, but it wasn't double glazed, right.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Okay, the wends bar does fulfill a purpose, right, it
offers because we tend to hang our cladding our joinery
on the outside of the cladding, it offers up some
support to the underside of the joinery frame. That's why
it's there. I sort of understand why the contract. If
there wasn't one there before, would you put one in now?

(50:48):
And obviously they've taken the route of saying no, I'm
not going to because in order to do it, they'd
probably have to remove more of the cladding below the
window in order to do that, and that makes the
job a little bit more complicated because you've then got
to repair that cladding as well. I mean, look, a

(51:09):
little bit of it depends on what was written down
on the quote. So if in the quote it says
window to be installed to current building code requirements, then
and the building code in that instance might have required
a WANs bar, then a WANs bar should have been installed.
If the discussion leading up to the job was more about, look,

(51:32):
we've got this window, we're going to take it out.
We're going to put another one back in the same
place and put it in the same manner that the
old one was installed, and that didn't include a WANs bar,
then you know, if you were informed of that and
that's you know, you've accepted that, then that you could
argue that that would be okay. The advice that you're

(51:52):
getting from your friends around allowing the contractor to come
back is correct. My understanding is that if there is
a dispute over you know, the quality of workmanship and
those sorts of things, you can't It's more that you
can't just go and get like your mate who's come
around to look at it, to say, right, I'm going

(52:14):
to get you to fix it, and then I'm going
to send the other contractor a bill or I'm not
going to pay the contractor because I'm going to use
that money to pay somebody else. So there is you
do need to make the offer to the other contractor.
I suppose what you can do is say, look, here
is a list of defects with the work. You can

(52:35):
come back to complete the work, but I'm going to
have it independently assessed, and if the work meets the
requirements of the code and you know, is up to
the standard for the installation, then I will pay you.
But if it's not, then I'm not going to pay.

Speaker 9 (52:51):
Yeah, but I just I do not want the guy
back on my property.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah, that ultimately is you know, you're better off getting
an answer from a lawyer, because I certainly don't want
to give you some advice saying okay, well look just
tell him that he can't finish the job and you'll
get someone else to finish it, because you know, you
might be essentially breaking the law there, So you'd want
to make sure that if that's the case, that you
have good reason to do that. And you know, if

(53:22):
you decide that you're not going to pay the balance
of the invoice, that you can also back that up
as well.

Speaker 9 (53:31):
When you say a lawyer, is it is Citizens Advice
Bureau sufficient or do I need to go to a lawyer?

Speaker 2 (53:38):
That's really a question that Citizens' Advice would ask offer up.
I know that I do know people who are lawyers
who do work, you know, volunteer work at Citizens Advice,
So I guess if you're getting advice from a lawyer,
But then they might say this can constitute general advice,
not specific advice and so on. Yeah, looks it is

(54:02):
a tricky situation, and sometimes these things are little bit
of balance, So you know, like is what you're so ultimately,
does the window perform as it should. You know, it
doesn't leak, it's you can open it and so on.
And if that's the case, and then is what your

(54:25):
friend is saying perhaps just being a bit picky or
a bit vnickity, you know, I mean, look, for a
long time, we install joinery without a wands bar. Now
we do. Does all of that joinery that got installed
that didn't have a WANs bar fail? No, it didn't.
So you know what I mean, You've you've you've got
to have a little bit of balance in these situations
as well.

Speaker 9 (54:44):
Yeah, totally understand. But the window is already scouting to.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Say, oh yeah, okay, well in that case the way yep.

Speaker 9 (54:54):
So I mean I've kept the lines of communication open
with the guy. I haven't just not correspondent corresponded with
I tell you what.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
The other the other option, the other pathway is perhaps
to you know, put down your concerns in writing. Say
to the contractor, I've had a price. Let's say it's
a five thousand dollar job. You've paid two and a
half thousand dollars and it's going to cost you one
thousand dollars to have your another contractor come and remediate

(55:27):
the work is to say to the person, look, i've
lost confidence in your ability to do the job. I
understand that you've got costs, so I'm going to deduct
the cost of the remediation, the labor costs of the
remediation off the invoice. This is my offer to you
of let's say four thousand dollars total payment, full and

(55:48):
final settlement. Do you accept that? And if they go
yes and they're prepared to walk away, then you've been fair.
But it's left you with some money left over that
you can use to have the remediation done. That's another possibility, right, yep, yep. Okay,
make sure it's in writing and make sure it gets accepted. Yeah,

(56:12):
all right, good luck. Look, I'm sorry to hear this,
and it's there's good luck with that. These conversations, quite
genuinely are difficult right to have, because we all wish
that every single contractor did their job well. We all wish,
as contract is that every single client was reasonable, but
these disputes do occur. It's been a good part of

(56:33):
yesterday writing essentially a report along exactly the same lines.
I went to have a look at a job where
someone was introduced to me asked me to come out
and go. Can you give us an independent assessment of
the quality of the work. Some of it was okay,
but some of it wasn't. And also they offered some
terrible advice to the client as well, which I thought

(56:55):
was unprofessional. So it's not nice things to be involved in.
But not every job goes well. Oh eight one hundred
and eighty ten eight is the number to call. We're
getting some great texts for our property expert coming up
after the break. In fact, probably enough questions to be
fair on the fencing Act at the stage, so looking

(57:16):
forward to that conversation. Ben Thompson from Pigeon Judd Lawyers
will be with us after eight o'clock. We're taking your
calls right now. Oh eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
is the number call. Will take short break, will be
back to Tracy in just a moment. Your news soalks
be at is seven forty on a Sunday morning and
a chance to catch up with Mike Olds from Razine
Construction Systems and Mike again, thanks to you and the

(57:40):
team for those Lego prizes for the competition that we ran.
They were gratefully received. And again for team New Zealand's
involvement with Razine. That's but fantastic.

Speaker 7 (57:51):
You're welcome. Take you're welcome, I put down Jordan.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Yeah, absolutely. I'll tell you what. The last conversation we
just had was around contractors and quality. So for you
at rezin construction with the exterior cladding, you've got a
particular way of managing contractors, don't you.

Speaker 7 (58:08):
Yeah, we did it, and we started it back in
sort of early two thousands, and it was all around
sort of providing surety back to the consumer. And part
of that process is what we call it's like an
on site quality assurance program whereby at the once the
because plasters don't just generally plaster, so they do obviously,

(58:31):
but a lot of the contractors supply and install the
substrates now and also the flashing suites around the openings
and the like, and they also have awareness around penetrations
through walls for pipes, electrical roofing connections and the like.
So there's a lot of complexity in the system. So

(58:53):
we started a number of years ago now with the
on site quality assurance which we go and review projects
that have our systems installed to them and we check
around these these types of details alongside the contractor, so
we do that. It's a substrate, so if something needs
to be changed or it's not quite correct from it

(59:14):
that our trade or another trade, then it's a best
opportunity to rectify and remedy so that it will perform.
And then when we get to the final stage of
the project, so once it's been painted and rendered and finished,
we come to a final review and that just checks

(59:35):
around the detailing and things like that, because sometimes you
get to a project and they've decided to change something
after it's been after it's been plaid, and they decide
to drill a hole through a wall, which may seem
reasonably inconsequential at the time. However, if it's in a
very very high wind zone for example, it needs to
be fueled against the building underlay, for example. So there's
other questions that need to be asked and things need

(59:57):
to be checked so that we don't have issues down
the track. So it's very much offense at the top
of a cliff type scenario rather than the ambulance at
bottom of the cliff and trying to resolve something which
is much more difficult after the fact. And that sets
up our process to issue warranties and the light for
the contractors.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
So there is that constant observation supervision of the process.

Speaker 7 (01:00:21):
Yeah, there's images that are held on file from these
reviews that we do as well, so when we look
at it in ten years time, fifteen or twenty years time,
we've got some history, we know we can understand that
visually as well. Alongside that peak, you've also the contractors
are all LBP licensed professionals in this trade as well,
so they know what they're looking at and they should

(01:00:41):
know what they're looking to achieve for all these individual projects,
because every job is different. You know, they may just
seem like the clouding, but you know there's different connections,
different junctions, different trades that we deal with and have
different understandings and experience in the trade as well. So
it's really just about surety for our clients and for
our contractors and equally those who they're working for.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
And every single job gets logged and registered and all
of that information has kept. That's impressive.

Speaker 7 (01:01:11):
Absolutely, it's not on our system. We don't know about it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:14):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Fantastic, Mike, Thanks very much. I know you're on the
road this morning. Safe travels and we'll catch up again soon.
So Mike Old's from Razine Construction Systems. If you want
to find out more, have a look at Razineconstruction dot
co dot nz radio back in just mo. I quite
like this text and we'll talk to Tracy in just
a moment for its honesty, Peepe. Sometimes builder friends can

(01:01:39):
just cause bigger issues than needs to be. It's a
difficult one. By the sound of the flashing, the job
was average. Surely there is a right to rectify. That's
the phrase, a right to rectify. So if you've done
something as a contractor that's not quite right, you have
a right to rectify it. A client can't just go
off and get someone else to do it and expect
you to pay for it, so you do have a

(01:02:00):
right to rectify. Thanks Andy. Look, it's always balanced, right,
there's always two sides of the story. But I think
you've summed it up very well. Thanks for your text
on that one. Tracy, A very good morning to you.
Good morning.

Speaker 6 (01:02:15):
Hi.

Speaker 10 (01:02:16):
Hey, Look, I've got an issue in the mornings, and
I'm not saying that the day's warmed up completely, but
I get this dripping sound between where my hot water
cylinder is and it's right next to my bathroom and
backs onto my shower, so there is concerns that that's
where there's a lot of water. Right now, the dripping

(01:02:36):
either sounds like it's hitting tin or sometimes it can
sound like it's hitting in your shower, the bottom of
your shower. You don't get that drip drip, but there's
literally you can't see any water anywhere. Now this happened,
never happens at night, only during the day, and that
changes its noise. I can go drip, drip, drip, drip,

(01:02:58):
and then stop and then go drip drip, drip, drip drip,
absolutely dripping, right, So I get a plumber in and
he went to go up in to the roof. I know,
the skillion roof, yes right, yeah, so it's gone up,
but of course it's start too narrow to be able
to get in.

Speaker 6 (01:03:16):
And see yep.

Speaker 10 (01:03:18):
Now, having been in a leaky home before, it's been
left behind because they can't figure it out, and it's like, oh,
it doesn't matter and it's detrimental to my house, you see,
So would I be concerned? Could that be the steel

(01:03:38):
roof settling every day? It seems a bit besars me
or condensation underneath it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
And yes, yes, okay, so the sound, so it's definitely
the sound of water dripping that you're hearing, but you
don't see any evidence of so you know, there's no
wet patch on the floor, there's no evidence of mold

(01:04:06):
growth on the wall, the ceiling, you're not starting to
see anything come through there. And the sound, it's always
in the same location or it changes moves around.

Speaker 10 (01:04:17):
No, it always affects the same.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Right in the ceiling it used to be.

Speaker 10 (01:04:27):
Yeah, they can't see any rout and I'm still in
the shower box and listen. Then you can say, well, no,
it's not coming from there, so it's just as you
walk into the bathroom, but just where the hot water
cylinder is. But it's a reasonably new house, so it
doesn't it can't be the ageingsel apparently.

Speaker 5 (01:04:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Is there an overflow onto the roof from the from
the cylinder? Okay, so the overflow goes back down and
through the plumbing and out.

Speaker 4 (01:04:57):
Yep.

Speaker 10 (01:04:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
When you say reasonably new house two three five years
oh no.

Speaker 10 (01:05:03):
Okay, so maybe it's not very recently new. I think
it was about twenty fourteen.

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
No, that's ten years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
Okay, Yeah, what type of roof is it? Is it
longer than iron?

Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:05:19):
I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
And the length of the run above the area where
you're hearing the sound, like, is that a recentably short
sheet three four meters or is it a much longer
sheet like seven or eight meters long, which is not uncommon?

Speaker 10 (01:05:39):
Okay? Could you bear with me because I didn't get
up there that I did ask the builder if he
would take a photograph, not the builder of the plumber,
if he would take a photograph of the roof for me,
just so you know, I don't know why, it seems
because this is the the end of it's taping, is

(01:06:00):
the low ends of the roof.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Yeah, I wonder whether it's I wonder whether there is
a possibility that, especially in a skillion type roof, because
the you know, there's not as much ventilation, you might
get a bit more condensation in there if, for example,
there's a tear in the in the roofing underlay the
sort of building paper that we put underneath the roofing,

(01:06:23):
and possibly condensation is being collected from, you know, further
up the roofing sheet. And the idea of the roofing
underlay is that when you get condensation on the underside
of iron, which is not uncommon, it then falls onto
the roofing underlay, tracks along the roofing underlay and drops
out into the spouting. So if there was a tear

(01:06:45):
in the roofing underlay for some reason, maybe another penetration
or someone's just ripped it and not bothered to repair it,
then water condensation could track along there, hit that opening
in the underlay, and drop down onto the ceiling, and
that might be the sound. But then the flip side
to that is that often you know you'll have enslav

(01:07:06):
in there, So a water drop that lands on insulation,
it won't really make a sound because it's not a
hard surface to sort of drum against exactly.

Speaker 10 (01:07:16):
And I can't imagine with the noise that it's making,
I can't imagine that it's dripping onto a ceiling. And
as I said, that either sounds like sometimes it sounds
like or else it sounds like the plastic in your shower. Yeah,

(01:07:37):
I'm not going to do anything in regards to the roof.
That's all long run from the top.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Straight down to the bottom right, and that distance would
be six seven meters ten meters.

Speaker 9 (01:07:52):
Yeah, I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
No, that's all right. And so that the plumber, the
plumber that came to site wasn't able to offer up
a suggestion.

Speaker 10 (01:08:06):
No, no, he just he climbed up and looked on
the roof and sort of listened.

Speaker 6 (01:08:14):
He reckoned.

Speaker 10 (01:08:14):
He could hear it loud outside, but then I went
out when it was happening later on and I couldn't
hear it. So yeah, it's got better hearing than me.

Speaker 7 (01:08:25):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 10 (01:08:28):
I just worried that. But this it's every day, but
it's never at nice, is.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
It in summer and winter?

Speaker 10 (01:08:36):
I think so your memory, I'm not really Oh, it's
because normally I will have a radio on or some
sort of noise in the house, so you don't notice.
The house is just one long yep it.

Speaker 5 (01:08:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
I wonder whether you know, like, if it's something that
happens in the morning, then that's when you get condensations, right,
you don't typically get condensation at the end of the day.
It's there in the morning when you have gone from
cold temperatures to warm temperatures. So and if it is
like if it happens when it hasn't been raining, then

(01:09:14):
it's going to be condensation if it if it happened
when it was raining, then it's a leak. And if
it is condensation that's stripping down, then it might be
a problem with the roofing underlay. But the only way
to check that would be to remove the roof. Now, again,
if it's a ten year old building, the advantage is
that the roofing will be screwed down with text crews,
in which case a roofer could come remove some sections,

(01:09:37):
inspect that area and then lay the sheets back down
so you're not having to replace sheets or anything like that.
Some plumbers do roofing, but not all of them, But
if you can find a plumber who also does some roofing,
I think that might be your next best option in
terms of investigating, is to remove a sheet and have
a look at the substrate and see if you can

(01:09:59):
see any evidence of the water leaking. So good luck
with that. May also be expansion noise, but we can
we'll discuss that another day news coming up top of
the hour at eight o'clock and then Ben Thompson is
going to join us your news talks. They'd be welcome
back to the program. Remember at eight thirty we'll get
into the garden with the Red Climb past who's going

(01:10:20):
to dial in. He's on the road today, so we
will be talking all things gardening and the wonderful world
of bugs with Red Client Pass from eight thirty. But
right now, one of the questions that comes up with
one of the topics that's raised on the show fairly
regularly is around fences, because well, basically, we've all got
neighbors and most of the time we got fences and

(01:10:41):
was it good fences make good neighbors basically, So when
there's a discussion about the fence or the height, or
the location, or the cost or the contributions, it all
comes down to the Fencing Act. And it is my
great pleasure to welcome to the show for the first
time Ben Thompson, who is a lawyer with Pigeon Judd,

(01:11:02):
and we are going to be talking about the Fencing
Act and some property stuff. Well, Ben, thanks for joining
us this morning.

Speaker 4 (01:11:09):
Hi Bete, Yeah, no problem.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
Really looking forward to this chat. And I have to
say since we started, we were starting a little bit
late as we had the all Blacks test to cover
off first, but I've had a flood of text messages
around fencing. So let's focus a little bit if we can,
on the Fencing Act. So I had a quick look

(01:11:31):
online and there it is the Fencing Act nineteen seventy eight.
What's the intent of the Act?

Speaker 4 (01:11:39):
Effectively to regulate the relationship between parties on a neighboring
parties in relation to their boundary fans. It's not intended
to be a be all and cover all in terms
of fencing. Generally, it won't apply to fences that are
contained within someone's property. Only applies the respect of fences
that are right on the boundary, and so regulates that.

(01:12:02):
Prior to the Fencing Act, there was previous versions of legislation. Traditionally,
a common law, there was no requirement to fence a boundary.
So the ninety to seventy Act effectively created a code
to regulate that relationship, specifically for boundary fences.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
I guess when we spread out a bit more then
maybe having a boundary fence wasn't such an issue, But
in a more compact environment than urban environment, suddenly that
becomes quite important. I just want to pick up on
one of your comments just there. So it regulates fences
that are built on the boundary. Is there a definition
as too? Obviously a boundary is a straight line. You know,

(01:12:47):
if you're ten millimeters inside the boundary, does that then
become just yours? Or you know, is there a definition
as to what constitutes being on the boundary?

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
Well, effectively, for it not the Acts not to apply,
you'd have to be able to build a fence without
going onto yourhbor's property at all. So it would have
to be wholly within your property, right if if, if
it's going to be on the boundary, it's almost impossible
for it not to encroach on your neighbor's land because
if you think, you know, a standard post is going
to be you know, four inches or huddy mill, it's

(01:13:22):
always going to cross the boundary ever so slightly. In
order to install that post, you're gonna need to go
onto your neighbor's land. So you're gonna have to if
you don't want the Act to apply and you don't
want to go through the provisions, then you're going to
need to move it within your property, you know, like
so it's clear of the boundary, and then that's come
quite there's a there's there's case law on this and

(01:13:43):
the most well known case was the NATA Hoovers is
Godney and christ Church and the NATA who wore doing
a property development and they effectively they bought the land
and they wanted to put their own fence in and
they didn't want to get into discussions of the neighbor
about what they couldn't couldn't do, but they were happy
to pay for the whole thing. But they went ahead
and did it. But ultimately the court found that because

(01:14:03):
even though they were they were paying for themselves, they
were doing it because it was on the boundary, they
needed the consent of the neighbor, regardless of whether they
were paying for it. So if you don't want to
get into the sort of nuances of the Act, you
have to build it within your land. If it's going
to be on the boundary, you're covered by it, regardless
of who's pain.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
And then in terms of getting a contribution from a
neighbor or having to contribute to your neighbour's fence, if
they're the one who's taken the initiative to build the fence,
what's the process for doing it. So if I decide that, look,
the fence either isn't there or it's really bad and
I want to build a new fence and I want
to go to my neighbor. What do I have to
do in order to formalize that contribution from the neighbor.

Speaker 4 (01:14:46):
Yeah, well, the Act creates a notice procedure, so you
effectively issue a formal notice on your neighbor setting out
what work you're proposing to be done on which boundaries,
So obviously east, west, north, south, so on. It needs
to be specifically detailed to enable the neighbor to understand
it exactly what you're proposing, where you're proposing it to

(01:15:08):
be done, what type of defense you're proposing, and a
rough estimate is to cost. So if you've got all
those details together and you put it in some kind
of written correspondence to the neighbor that they can consider,
that's effectively how you start the formal procedure to give
a Fencing Act notice.

Speaker 2 (01:15:26):
Okay, and then then there's a talk in the Act
of a standard fence. So that used to be from
my understanding, kind of basically a warritor in three runs
of number eight fencing wire. That's no longer a standard fence.
So what's considered a standard fence.

Speaker 4 (01:15:45):
Well, the rear of the out there as schedules giving examples, right,
and it depends on whether it's in an urban setting
or a rural setting. So in an urban setting it gives, well,
there's actually got five examples of fence. It gives you
can have a post and rail defence, a closed boarded fence,
a paling fence, a panel fence, or a masonry wall.

(01:16:06):
And then within each of those definitions there's particular details
specifying minimum requirements. So for example, for the paling fence,
it's a minimum of one meter in height, the posts
can't be more than two point seventy five meters apart,
and it has to be at least two rails. So
if you're wanting to get that contribution from the neighbor,

(01:16:27):
and you're wanting to build it on the boundary, your
entitlement really is to one of these types of fenses.
If you're wanting something that's you know, greater or more
fantastic or different than these standard adequate fences, then you're
not going to have that entitlement, and the legislation to
do it you'd need you you know, you neighbor would
have to consent, and you probably have to accept that
you're going to have to pay more than half if

(01:16:49):
you're wanting something that's better than this standard fence, because
the legislation only requires a neighbor to contribute to a
standard fence, not something that's superior to that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
Right, that's really important because I would imagine that every
now and then someone, you know, let's say you've been
in your property for a long time, a neighbor who
wants to do a development or something like that, wants
to do a much more attractive and there for expensive
fence on the boundary, seeks a contribution for half of that.
You don't have to pay. You only have to pay
half of a standard fence.

Speaker 4 (01:17:20):
Yeah, And and the term adequate comes up as well
in the case laws like what's going to be adequate
for the situation? And the legislation tries to give you
these examples and the schedules at the rear, and if
you go on there, it's quite a you know, use
a friendly piece of legislation. It's not particularly long, and
I'm sure you know, most of the listeners if they
were to look at the schedule of types of fences
that are pretty clear what comes within those definitions. Yeah,

(01:17:44):
there's only requirement, as you say, under the Act for
a standard adequate fence. Anything over and above that, you're
not going to be able to force that on someone.
And if you are going to go for it, you
can have to pay that extra if you're the person
that's proposing it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
Yeah. Okay, Well that's really good, you know, because I
think sometimes people are daunted by that, you know that
that suddenly the neighbor wants to do something really flesh
and asks for a contrabution. Well you basically you don't
have to do it, which is great.

Speaker 4 (01:18:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
In effect, now I'm starting to get some really great
text questions that are coming through as well. So for example,
something like this, are councils bound by the Fencing Act
as well?

Speaker 4 (01:18:27):
The Fencing Act doesn't apply to all boundaries. There are
some carve outs in respective sort of railway lines and
other sort of special classifications of land. Invariably, it's if
it's a boundary fence, though, and the council owns the
land it's immediately adjacent to your boundary, then unless there's

(01:18:47):
anything specifically on the title, then they're bound just like
any other property owner would be. But what you what
you find when you look at a lot of titles,
I suppose, well, firstly, most people's homes aren't on a
boundary of the council, so the road is something different
that's that wouldn't be considered sort of like a council
piece of lands right and apply to a roadside. But

(01:19:10):
the if council happened to own like a reserve or
a section, then there would be that obligation. But when
I look at titles for clients, normally there's something that's
been put on there that consented to the subdivision, and
part of that consent, council registered something to say they
would have no obligation to pay for that fence, so

(01:19:30):
they've contracted out of the act, which you can do.
So often when people are buying us selling their house,
there might be something on their title that says they
have no obligation to contribute towards fencing. And if that's
the case, then that overrides the Act. You've contracted out
of it. But you need to take legal advice in
that situation because all these things on your title they
have different application and sometimes they expire after twelve years

(01:19:53):
as well, So that would be the normal case.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
Okay, again, an interesting comment from you that you know
roads and I suppose the curb and the boom and
those sorts of things are not to nically owned by council.
So you can't go along to NZTA or to the
council and go I want a contribution from a new
front fence.

Speaker 4 (01:20:13):
Yeah. No, they've specifically been excluded from the legislation, right,
So yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:20:18):
Yeah, classic, that's fantastic. We're going to take a short
break and then we're going to come back with a
bunch more questions. So joining me this morning on the
programs Ben Thompson, lawyer at Pigeon Judge, and we're talking
specifically about the Fencing Act. Just down the line. Ben
will be back in just a moment. It's weed season.
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and hardware store. Z me your news talk z'd B

(01:21:47):
and joining me this morning is Ben Thompson, lawyer who
specializes in property law, and in particular in the Fencing Act.
A couple of questions that have come through, Like one
of the ones is around you know, I suppose privacy
who determines the height of a fence for example.

Speaker 4 (01:22:05):
Well, under the Act, you make your notice as I
was describing before, that should set out exactly what you
know type of fence you're requiring, how how large it
should be, how high it can be. It has to
come within the parameters of those schedule types of fences
like and I mentioned before in the urban setting some
of those definitions that are minimum height of one meter

(01:22:30):
most then you've also got to overlap that with the
planning requirements of the particular local authority that you're putting
a fence up in. So building consent is not going
to be required in most areas for a fence that's
under two and a half meters in size. So if
you're within those boundaries, that's going to be you know,
the type of fence that you can be proposing under

(01:22:50):
the Act. You're not going to be able to force
on someone a type of fence that's going to be
larger or there is going to require building building content
because that's not you know, deemed an adequate fence or
one of the types of the rear of the legislation there.
So yeah, whatever you're opposing, you need to make sure
that you're complying with those the types that are given

(01:23:12):
the real the legislation.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):
Well, that's interesting again, the thing I pull out of
that is two and a half meters. I thought boundary
fences were pretty much one point eight meters as of right,
two meters by agreement with both parties. Anything beyond that
would have required a building consent. But two point five
meters that's a tall fence on a boundary.

Speaker 3 (01:23:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:23:33):
Well, like I said, that's not necessarily going to be
able to build in the right area. Just comes from
the building code and the building I think it's more
to do the structural aspect of it. So when you
look at the building code, they're sort of ascertaining, well,
what work is the type of work that is safe
enough to be built without a building consent. Doesn't mean
you have the entaglement to build it everywhere. Yeah, that's

(01:23:53):
going to be up to your particular district plan. So
if you're in sort of, you know, a central urban area,
it's going to be different a rural area of how
large defense you can be built. So you're quite right.
In most urban settings at two point five meters offense
would not be compliant with the district plan because it
would be considered excessive and too high, and it would
cause an impact on people's light and that visual amenity

(01:24:17):
to their property.

Speaker 2 (01:24:18):
I suspect so, Ben, I'm looking at the text machine,
which has gone nuts. But this is a classic sort
of question that we get quite a bit for the
fencing lawyer. Please is the text. If a neighbor wants
to upgrade an adequate fence, it's obviously at their cost.
But what happens when I would get the bad side
of a generally fancy offense and I want to stick

(01:24:39):
to the existing one? Can I object?

Speaker 4 (01:24:43):
Yeah? So you can object. So if the neighbor would
have proposed made their proposal, like we've discussed in the
written form, if you've then got twenty one days to
formally object. And the act is quite helpful because it
provides an example of how to issue an objection across
notice and it gives you sort of a precedent text
there that you can use. But if you don't make

(01:25:04):
that objection within twenty one days, and you'd deemed to
have approved it, so it is very important to act
on it. Don't sit on it, don't do it, you know,
don't sort of just let it slip right that. If
you get that opposition within the twenty one days, then
you're not deemed to have accepted it, and that's you
and the neighbor. Can it reach agreement, then ultimately it
can be referred to the dispute tribunal or the district

(01:25:24):
or the High Court in terms of the who gets
the you know, it's an interesting question. So if it's
right on the boundary, who's getting the benefit of the
I guess there is often a nicer size of the defense.
You've got the one that's got the posts and one
that's got the flat face. Well, if one particular party
is wanting the benefit of the superior side of the fence,

(01:25:44):
then it's going to be fair and reasonable that they
pay a slightly larger contribution to reflect that. That's you know,
I think that's reflective and they're receiving greater benefit than
the other.

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
Person, right right, So another text has come through. What
about a fence along a driveway to the two neighbors
who live behind their property? Who pays for repairs and maintenance?

Speaker 4 (01:26:07):
Then?

Speaker 2 (01:26:08):
So, you know, is the fence, Yeah, who's responsible for it?

Speaker 4 (01:26:14):
It's potentially complicated. So firstly you need to understand that
who owns the driveway because there's multiple options there. It
could be shared ownership, say there were three properties at
the rear that it could be split in thirds, or
perhaps more common is it's owned by one of the
owners and then there's an easement in place the right
of waysment for the other two to access and drive

(01:26:34):
along it. So if there's an easement in place, the
terms of the easement itself normally require contributions to the
upkeeper of that particular right of way in return from
having access over it. So you would probably look to
ascertain what the ownership status is and whether there are
any easements or not, and then fall back on that

(01:26:55):
to you know, understand if they've got a contribution. So,
I mean, it's very hard to say without looking at
the specific example, but if someone's receiving a legal benefit
to use and enjoy something, the law legal position normally
is that they're going to have a you know, coraally
expectation to contribute in proportions that use and enjoyment.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
They're getting Okay, final question today, and we've got a
heap more to get to, but we're going to run
out of time. A wooden paling fence between neighbors. On
their side, they've piled up grass, clippings and rubbish and
so answer. The boards have started to rot. My side
is stained and maintained. Are they responsible for the cost

(01:27:36):
of replacement because they cause the damage?

Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
Yes, in essence, if that can proven, then that's the
case under the legislation. The default position is that the
neighbors will contribute equally to any fence. Yes, but if
the work that's been required is only caused because of
a particular actor and action of a neighbor, so like
in that example there with you know, poor property maintenance,
or even if someone's tree roots have damaged the fence

(01:28:01):
and they've come from one side of their property, they're
going to have a greater liability to Also, if someone's
got a swimming pool, that means you might need a
superior fence to what would normally be expected, and they're
going to have to pay more to reflect the fact
they're getting the benefit because they've got a pool on
their property. Yes, the legislation does deal that quite well.
So if someone's caused something or is you know, contributing

(01:28:23):
to the reason that more money is being spent, then
they're going to have to pay for that under the legislation.

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):
What happens when a fence also includes a retaining wall.
Now that might just be sort of one board high
on a on a boundary to contain a garden. It
might be a couple of retaining boards and then the
fence on top. Is it that the person that gets
the benefit of the retaining wall is the one that
pays for the wall.

Speaker 4 (01:28:48):
Yeah, normally, that's that's correct. PEAT and retaining walls aren't
specifically addressed under There's no reference to them there, and
I think that's a bit of a reflection of it.
It's quite uncommon for there to be a retaining wall
that's truly on the boundary that serves both properties equally,
because in reality that that just doesn't happen. Yep, there's
normally a benefit to one of the two parties with

(01:29:10):
the retaining wall. Yes, a party that's benefiting it invariably
is the one that's responsible for the cost of a
pair of maintenance. There would be the od occasion, I suppose,
where it potentially is right on the boundary and it's
serving a mutual benefit, and in that case then the
Fencing Act would apply for equal contributions. But I would
say that's less common in most settings.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
Yeah. Absolutely. We've had a tremendous response and I really
appreciate the insights that you've been able to offer up.
Thank you for being part of the show. And right
now i'd like to extend an invitation for you to
join us again because this is I mean, look, most
of us have got neighbors, which means we've got fences,

(01:29:49):
so this is common for a lot of people. So again, Ben,
thank you very much for joining me this morning.

Speaker 4 (01:29:55):
Oh thanks Peter, you'd love to join again some other time.

Speaker 2 (01:29:57):
Look forward to it. Take care all the very best.
Thank you very much. That was Ben Thompson. He is
a lawyer with Pigeon Judge Lawyers, in fact director there
and as you can tell, his experience or his expertise
is around Property Act and in particular the Fencing Act
as well. So thank you to those that text through.
Will actually try and keep your texts and we will

(01:30:19):
get Ben back on the program again. Eight hundred eighty
ten eighty is the number to call her. Redcline Past
is standing by. We'll jump into the garden with Rudd
in just a moment for more.

Speaker 1 (01:30:31):
From the Resident Builder with Peter Wolfcamp. Listen live to
news talks that'd be on Sunday Mornings from Sex, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.

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