Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now I just mentioned the fact that pediatricians have written
to the Chief Minister Leofanoguiaro saying that they are concerned.
They've written to express their deep concern regarding the changes
to the youth's legislation which happened throughout the week. We
also know that the AMA, the Australian Medical Association's Northern
(00:22):
Territory branch, have weighed in following discussion by the government
about recent coronial inquest and the Coroner's office and some
of the comments made in that space. Now joining me
on the line is the AMA's president, doctor John Zorbis.
Good morning to you. Good to have you on the show.
Good thank you. Now, the AMA issued a public statement
(00:45):
yesterday raising concerns about the government's commentary around the coroner's
timelines with some inquest. Can you talk me through the
concerns that the AMA's got with the comments that have
been made in recent weeks.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah. So the concern that we have with comments is
they don't really seem to be related to what the
Coroner's putting out and more about the coroner doing their job,
and we don't think it's appropriate for politics to be
in the space of the coroner. And that's you know,
it's not just our opinion that this is the law.
The coroner investigates death, investigates untimely and unseemly deaths in
(01:19):
the NT, and it is our last line of defense
when deaths are not explained or occur because of massive
systems failures. The coroner needs to be free to do
their job. They just need to be able to get
their head down and do their job. And that's what
Coron Armitage has been doing. So when we heard words
like dragging on and uninspiring, I mean, the coroner doesn't
(01:40):
make works of art. They do inquests, very powerful ones,
I might add.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I guess the other side of the argument, which we
certainly discussed this morning on the show throughout the week
that was is there. You know, we are talking about
a public servant ultimately, and that you know that some
may feel as though some of these processes are taking
a long time and cost a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and I agree with you there because I can't
get on your show and say we're not funding health
properly but also not you know, having accountability in other
areas of public money. I completely agree with you there.
But you know, let's talk about the dragging on. So
the walk in quest, it was an eye watering figure
of eight million dollars and took longer than that we
would like it to happen. In absolutely, but I think
(02:30):
to lay the blame so early in the media with
the coroner is not fair to the coroner. If we
want to look at that inquest and look at how
we might speed things up, how we might spend less. Yeah, absolutely,
we should be spending every public dollar properly. But it's
not fair to come out in the media before we've
looked at the issue and just start saying that, you know,
(02:51):
the coroner needs to be faster. I just don't think
that's fair to the coroner, and it certainly doesn't result
in good inquests, of which, by the way, the domestic
violence in quest that the coroner is done is one
of the best I've ever read. It is just an
amazing inquest.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So from your perspective, I mean looking at that inquest
and looking at the recommendations and the findings, you know,
from the AMA's perspective, are there areas where you know,
you go, all right, this needs to be implemented asap.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, So it is a long inquest, and there are
a lot of recommendations and they are broad and wide sweeping,
and there's been some comments that a lot of it
is too hard to achieve or is going to cost
a lot, and that's true, but we're talking about a massive,
massive problem. I mean, in the NT, you know, almost
two thirds of all assaults are related to domestic and
family violence, and the police force themselves in this inquest
(03:43):
estimate that domestican family violence accounts for about fifty to
eighty percent of police time, which is just a staggering amount.
Averaging women in the NT have forty times more likely
than up in hospital because of family violence and death
from you know that family violence, the homicide is seven
times the national average. And that's the scale of the
(04:04):
crisis that we're talking about. As your question, yeah, you
go to answer your question about what we need to do.
If I could distill those recommendations down, there's inadequate resourcing
and funding looks like you know, the estimates are about
one hundred and eighty million out of five years, which
is a lot of money. But this is a big problem.
Coordination between our agencies, between police, health, corrections, workforce training,
(04:28):
and measures on alcohol restriction as well. Alcohol is a
huge part of this problem.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
One of the points that the Minister for the Prevention
of Domestic Violence, Robin Carl made is she she accused
the coroner of not being brave enough to make any
recommendations related to Aboriginal culture, and she pointed to examples
noted elsewhere in the findings of cultural pressure used as
a form of coercive control. I mean, even in what
(04:57):
you've just said to me, you've spoken about, you know,
the fact that Aboriginal women, you know, they are obviously
overrepresented when you talk about domestic violence victims coming in
to our hospitals, and you know that is one of
the points that the Minister obeyed to me on the
show yesterday, and wanting to see some of that leadership
(05:18):
in that space.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, and we agree with the importance of culture. I
don't agree with the Minister that there was no recommendation
around culture. I think that the culture was referred to
in the inquest at several points. And the importance of
speaking to communities. I think the coroner demonstrated that by
traveling outside of Darwin and delivering these inquests in areas
(05:41):
that are more appropriate. The role of culture absolutely is
an important one. No matter what culture you're talking about,
we are not going to have a single recommendation from
the coroner that's going to fix the problems of culture
and the interplay with violence. Whatever that culture is, it's
something we need to address. It's something the coroner mentions
in the inquest and that's a you knows, there's no
(06:04):
bullet points for that. That takes a lot of time,
a lot of patients, and a lot of discussion with
those people who are in this space, those cultural leaders
and those elders who know this space.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Doctor's orbis, Can you tell me how like, you know,
I'm not expecting you to, you know, to reveal anything
that's sort of patient confidentiality or anything like that, but
I mean, how often are domestic violence victims seen at
our hospitals across the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Every day? There is not a day I have worked
in the NT where I have not seen a victim
of domestic violence at rual Dale Hospital, hand on heart
and every day.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Your perspective, like, how serious is this issue? From a
medical perspective?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
It's one of the most serious. So, you know, I've
been on here talking about the underfunding of health, and
I've been talking about access block specifically around aged care,
domestic and family violence, and the impact on our community
is in that list. It's the same top three. And
that's not just you know, you obviously need to talk
to people outside health to get the perspective of police
(07:05):
and nurses and social workers. But from where we stand
in health, this is a huge impact on the health
of our community and a huge part of our lifestyle
and the NT. This is something that we can't walk
past and it's something that's hard. I'm not going to
expect the government to be able to fix this with
one way initiative. I get that this is a hard problem,
but hard problems need good resourcing and good communication.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I mean, is it time for our government though, to
look at doing things differently, to try and look for
some you know, for some different approaches.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, there's been a bit of talk about you know,
there's nothing new or nothing brave in this, and new
doesn't necessarily mean better. So for example, we know that
alcohol was related to almost every single death that was
reported in that inquest. We've recommended the reinstatement of the
minimum unit price, and we know that when you charge
a minimum of a dollar thirty per standard drink, not
(08:01):
a lot, and most drinks are above that price. Anyway,
it does make a significant difference to alcohol related harm,
especially sales of high volume alcohol, you know, like cask
wine and things like that. We know those things make
a difference. Now the government disagrees with us on that,
we're going to continue to make our case for it.
So there's a couple of old things that work well
that we can bring back. There's always going to be
(08:23):
new things on the horizon, but the best people to
talk to are the people in this space. So when
we're calling for the establishment of a coordinating body where
you've got health corrections, you know, housing at the same
table talking about this problem, that's the only way we're
going to find initiatives that work. I don't want to
spend money on things that don't work.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Now. Look, I want to ask you as well this
morning about the letter that has been sent to the
Chief Minister La Finocchio in relation to the changes the
legislative changes when it comes to the Youth Justice Act.
Throughout this week, I have got some audio of the
Member for Nightcliff cat macnamara, asking this question of the
Chief Minister. I'll play it a little bit later this
(09:04):
morning when we've got a bit more time, but I
do want to ask you. I know that the pediatricians
have written to the Chief Minister. They say they're committed
to safeguarding the well being and health of children and
protecting them from child abuse across the Northern Territory. They've
written to express their deep concern regarding the reinstating of
spit hoods in youth detention. They the inadequate access to
(09:28):
comprehensive pediatric care, including neurodevelopment assessments for children in the
justice system, and removing the principle of detention as the
last resort doctr zorbis. Obviously, this question was asked in
Parliament yesterday. What do you think needs to happen here?
What are pediatricians saying to you?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, look, the response from the Chief Minister was pretty
disappointing to be honest, and I know you'll play the
audio and your listeners can make up their own mind.
But effectively the Chief minister' the pediatricians to get back
in their wheelhouse. Now. The health of children is not
just the pediatricians wheelhouse, it's the whole bloody boat. So
what they're talking about specifically and their main concern is
(10:10):
the reintroduction of spit hoods. There is an idea that
spit hoods help reduce the transmission of infective diseases. That's
not true. We know that in the Act in twenty
nineteen they were removed because they were ineffective at preventing
the transmission of effective diseases. We know that they cause harm.
We know that they cause psychological harm. We know there's
(10:31):
a risk of asphyxiation and death, a risk of seizures.
So where's the benefit And that's the question that the
pediatricians have for the Chief Minister is this is a
tool that's referred to as torture in other jurisdictions, where
the only jurisdiction in the country where they're used. Every
other jurisdiction has banned them. It's been previously banned in
(10:52):
the NT. It doesn't make sense to bring something in
that won't reduce crime but will hurt children.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Doctor's orbis people listening this morning will be thinking the
benefit is guards not being spat on.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, I so I'm in this firing line. I'll tell
you that I have been spat out at work. I've
been punched, I've been kicked, and I can tell you
now spihood wouldn't have changed that spin hood is not
effective at presenting the transmission of disease. I completely agree
that nobody, nobody should be assaulted at work. It's discossed,
pleef health, doctor's, nurses, nobody, no matter your title, no
(11:29):
matter your job, no matter where you think you sit
on the ladder that is society. Nobody should get spat
out or attack to work. Completely agree spi Hood's isn't
going to do that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Have you seen the new Have you seen what they're
what they're proposing, because they're very different to what I
thought they were going to look like. They're more like
a it's almost like chul or like a fly, you know,
like a fly mesh let's see through. It's very different
to what I had envisaged and seen in vision, you know,
(12:02):
from Don Dale all those years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, so we've got tools that already work and we
already know are safe. So you know, when we went
through COVID, we weren't walking around the hospitals wearing spit hoods.
We were wearing in ninety five masks which prevent the
transmission of airborne disease. You know, we have ways and
means and we don't use spit hoods in the hospital,
and yet we're able to manage being spat at and
being attacked in the hospital relatively well. We could always
(12:27):
be doing better, but you know there are ways of
doing this without tools that the Royal Australian College of
Psychiatrists the Royal Australian College of Physicians both agree cause
harm to children. If we want to reduce crime in
the NT from a health perspective, we know that spit
hoods cause harm.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Well, doctor's orbis. I know, look, I we have a
lot of victims of crime that listen to these show.
So I know that some of them listening this morning
may be listening and not agreeing. But I know that
you're coming at this from a health pacespect is, and
you know, I always appreciate your time, no matter what
the topic. But yeah, look, I know that there will
(13:06):
be some people that you know that are listening and
don't agree with what you've got to say. I mean,
what do you say to those people?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So to them, I say, I am a victim of crime.
You know, I'm here as a doctor on behalf of
the a MA to speak about health, and I don't
you know the Chief as I said, the Chief ministerervice
talking about staying in lanes, and I agree, you shouldn't
be you know, I shouldn't have an opinion on the
day and ship lift facility that gets broadcast. You know.
I get that I'm here to talk about health, but
also I'm a Territorian and I live in the same community,
(13:35):
and I go to these same places where these assaults
I'm reminded of every day, and my own my own
space and my own privacy has been invaded as well.
And so if I want to fix that, I want
to make sure we're spending money and time on things
that work. That's what I want. I want this problem
fixed as much as anybody else does. And I'm talking
(13:55):
on a personal level here, not not as representative. So
I want to make sure that we're our money on
things that are evidence based and we know reduce crime.
And our experts are telling us that spit hoods done
in that diagram.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, I am a president for the Northern Territory. Doctor
John Zorbis always appreciate your time. Thank you very much
for joining us on the show.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Today, Thanks Kettie, appreciate the time.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Thank you
Now I just mentioned the fact that pediatricians have written
to the Chief Minister Leofanoguiaro saying that they are concerned.
They've written to express their deep concern regarding the changes
to the youth's legislation which happened throughout the week. We
also know that the AMA, the Australian Medical Association's Northern
(00:22):
Territory branch, have weighed in following discussion by the government
about recent coronial inquest and the Coroner's office and some
of the comments made in that space. Now joining me
on the line is the AMA's president, doctor John Zorbis.
Good morning to you. Good to have you on the show.
Good thank you. Now, the AMA issued a public statement
(00:45):
yesterday raising concerns about the government's commentary around the coroner's
timelines with some inquest. Can you talk me through the
concerns that the AMA's got with the comments that have
been made in recent weeks.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah. So the concern that we have with comments is
they don't really seem to be related to what the
Coroner's putting out and more about the coroner doing their job,
and we don't think it's appropriate for politics to be
in the space of the coroner. And that's you know,
it's not just our opinion that this is the law.
The coroner investigates death, investigates untimely and unseemly deaths in
(01:19):
the NT, and it is our last line of defense
when deaths are not explained or occur because of massive
systems failures. The coroner needs to be free to do
their job. They just need to be able to get
their head down and do their job. And that's what
Coron Armitage has been doing. So when we heard words
like dragging on and uninspiring, I mean, the coroner doesn't
(01:40):
make works of art. They do inquests, very powerful ones,
I might add.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I guess the other side of the argument, which we
certainly discussed this morning on the show throughout the week
that was is there. You know, we are talking about
a public servant ultimately, and that you know that some
may feel as though some of these processes are taking
a long time and cost a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and I agree with you there because I can't
get on your show and say we're not funding health
properly but also not you know, having accountability in other
areas of public money. I completely agree with you there.
But you know, let's talk about the dragging on. So
the walk in quest, it was an eye watering figure
of eight million dollars and took longer than that we
would like it to happen. In absolutely, but I think
(02:30):
to lay the blame so early in the media with
the coroner is not fair to the coroner. If we
want to look at that inquest and look at how
we might speed things up, how we might spend less. Yeah, absolutely,
we should be spending every public dollar properly. But it's
not fair to come out in the media before we've
looked at the issue and just start saying that, you know,
(02:51):
the coroner needs to be faster. I just don't think
that's fair to the coroner, and it certainly doesn't result
in good inquests, of which, by the way, the domestic
violence in quest that the coroner is done is one
of the best I've ever read. It is just an
amazing inquest.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So from your perspective, I mean looking at that inquest
and looking at the recommendations and the findings, you know,
from the AMA's perspective, are there areas where you know,
you go, all right, this needs to be implemented asap.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, So it is a long inquest, and there are
a lot of recommendations and they are broad and wide sweeping,
and there's been some comments that a lot of it
is too hard to achieve or is going to cost
a lot, and that's true, but we're talking about a massive,
massive problem. I mean, in the NT, you know, almost
two thirds of all assaults are related to domestic and
family violence, and the police force themselves in this inquest
(03:43):
estimate that domestican family violence accounts for about fifty to
eighty percent of police time, which is just a staggering amount.
Averaging women in the NT have forty times more likely
than up in hospital because of family violence and death
from you know that family violence, the homicide is seven
times the national average. And that's the scale of the
(04:04):
crisis that we're talking about. As your question, yeah, you
go to answer your question about what we need to do.
If I could distill those recommendations down, there's inadequate resourcing
and funding looks like you know, the estimates are about
one hundred and eighty million out of five years, which
is a lot of money. But this is a big problem.
Coordination between our agencies, between police, health, corrections, workforce training,
(04:28):
and measures on alcohol restriction as well. Alcohol is a
huge part of this problem.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
One of the points that the Minister for the Prevention
of Domestic Violence, Robin Carl made is she she accused
the coroner of not being brave enough to make any
recommendations related to Aboriginal culture, and she pointed to examples
noted elsewhere in the findings of cultural pressure used as
a form of coercive control. I mean, even in what
(04:57):
you've just said to me, you've spoken about, you know,
the fact that Aboriginal women, you know, they are obviously
overrepresented when you talk about domestic violence victims coming in
to our hospitals, and you know that is one of
the points that the Minister obeyed to me on the
show yesterday, and wanting to see some of that leadership
(05:18):
in that space.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, and we agree with the importance of culture. I
don't agree with the Minister that there was no recommendation
around culture. I think that the culture was referred to
in the inquest at several points. And the importance of
speaking to communities. I think the coroner demonstrated that by
traveling outside of Darwin and delivering these inquests in areas
(05:41):
that are more appropriate. The role of culture absolutely is
an important one. No matter what culture you're talking about,
we are not going to have a single recommendation from
the coroner that's going to fix the problems of culture
and the interplay with violence. Whatever that culture is, it's
something we need to address. It's something the coroner mentions
in the inquest and that's a you knows, there's no
(06:04):
bullet points for that. That takes a lot of time,
a lot of patients, and a lot of discussion with
those people who are in this space, those cultural leaders
and those elders who know this space.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Doctor's orbis, Can you tell me how like, you know,
I'm not expecting you to, you know, to reveal anything
that's sort of patient confidentiality or anything like that, but
I mean, how often are domestic violence victims seen at
our hospitals across the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Every day? There is not a day I have worked
in the NT where I have not seen a victim
of domestic violence at rual Dale Hospital, hand on heart
and every day.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Your perspective, like, how serious is this issue? From a
medical perspective?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
It's one of the most serious. So, you know, I've
been on here talking about the underfunding of health, and
I've been talking about access block specifically around aged care,
domestic and family violence, and the impact on our community
is in that list. It's the same top three. And
that's not just you know, you obviously need to talk
to people outside health to get the perspective of police
(07:05):
and nurses and social workers. But from where we stand
in health, this is a huge impact on the health
of our community and a huge part of our lifestyle
and the NT. This is something that we can't walk
past and it's something that's hard. I'm not going to
expect the government to be able to fix this with
one way initiative. I get that this is a hard problem,
but hard problems need good resourcing and good communication.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I mean, is it time for our government though, to
look at doing things differently, to try and look for
some you know, for some different approaches.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, there's been a bit of talk about you know,
there's nothing new or nothing brave in this, and new
doesn't necessarily mean better. So for example, we know that
alcohol was related to almost every single death that was
reported in that inquest. We've recommended the reinstatement of the
minimum unit price, and we know that when you charge
a minimum of a dollar thirty per standard drink, not
(08:01):
a lot, and most drinks are above that price. Anyway,
it does make a significant difference to alcohol related harm,
especially sales of high volume alcohol, you know, like cask
wine and things like that. We know those things make
a difference. Now the government disagrees with us on that,
we're going to continue to make our case for it.
So there's a couple of old things that work well
that we can bring back. There's always going to be
(08:23):
new things on the horizon, but the best people to
talk to are the people in this space. So when
we're calling for the establishment of a coordinating body where
you've got health corrections, you know, housing at the same
table talking about this problem, that's the only way we're
going to find initiatives that work. I don't want to
spend money on things that don't work.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Now. Look, I want to ask you as well this
morning about the letter that has been sent to the
Chief Minister La Finocchio in relation to the changes the
legislative changes when it comes to the Youth Justice Act.
Throughout this week, I have got some audio of the
Member for Nightcliff cat macnamara, asking this question of the
Chief Minister. I'll play it a little bit later this
(09:04):
morning when we've got a bit more time, but I
do want to ask you. I know that the pediatricians
have written to the Chief Minister. They say they're committed
to safeguarding the well being and health of children and
protecting them from child abuse across the Northern Territory. They've
written to express their deep concern regarding the reinstating of
spit hoods in youth detention. They the inadequate access to
(09:28):
comprehensive pediatric care, including neurodevelopment assessments for children in the
justice system, and removing the principle of detention as the
last resort doctr zorbis. Obviously, this question was asked in
Parliament yesterday. What do you think needs to happen here?
What are pediatricians saying to you?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, look, the response from the Chief Minister was pretty
disappointing to be honest, and I know you'll play the
audio and your listeners can make up their own mind.
But effectively the Chief minister' the pediatricians to get back
in their wheelhouse. Now. The health of children is not
just the pediatricians wheelhouse, it's the whole bloody boat. So
what they're talking about specifically and their main concern is
(10:10):
the reintroduction of spit hoods. There is an idea that
spit hoods help reduce the transmission of infective diseases. That's
not true. We know that in the Act in twenty
nineteen they were removed because they were ineffective at preventing
the transmission of effective diseases. We know that they cause harm.
We know that they cause psychological harm. We know there's
(10:31):
a risk of asphyxiation and death, a risk of seizures.
So where's the benefit And that's the question that the
pediatricians have for the Chief Minister is this is a
tool that's referred to as torture in other jurisdictions, where
the only jurisdiction in the country where they're used. Every
other jurisdiction has banned them. It's been previously banned in
(10:52):
the NT. It doesn't make sense to bring something in
that won't reduce crime but will hurt children.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Doctor's orbis people listening this morning will be thinking the
benefit is guards not being spat on.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, I so I'm in this firing line. I'll tell
you that I have been spat out at work. I've
been punched, I've been kicked, and I can tell you
now spihood wouldn't have changed that spin hood is not
effective at presenting the transmission of disease. I completely agree
that nobody, nobody should be assaulted at work. It's discossed,
pleef health, doctor's, nurses, nobody, no matter your title, no
(11:29):
matter your job, no matter where you think you sit
on the ladder that is society. Nobody should get spat
out or attack to work. Completely agree spi Hood's isn't
going to do that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Have you seen the new Have you seen what they're
what they're proposing, because they're very different to what I
thought they were going to look like. They're more like
a it's almost like chul or like a fly, you know,
like a fly mesh let's see through. It's very different
to what I had envisaged and seen in vision, you know,
(12:02):
from Don Dale all those years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, so we've got tools that already work and we
already know are safe. So you know, when we went
through COVID, we weren't walking around the hospitals wearing spit hoods.
We were wearing in ninety five masks which prevent the
transmission of airborne disease. You know, we have ways and
means and we don't use spit hoods in the hospital,
and yet we're able to manage being spat at and
being attacked in the hospital relatively well. We could always
(12:27):
be doing better, but you know there are ways of
doing this without tools that the Royal Australian College of
Psychiatrists the Royal Australian College of Physicians both agree cause
harm to children. If we want to reduce crime in
the NT from a health perspective, we know that spit
hoods cause harm.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Well, doctor's orbis. I know, look, I we have a
lot of victims of crime that listen to these show.
So I know that some of them listening this morning
may be listening and not agreeing. But I know that
you're coming at this from a health pacespect is, and
you know, I always appreciate your time, no matter what
the topic. But yeah, look, I know that there will
(13:06):
be some people that you know that are listening and
don't agree with what you've got to say. I mean,
what do you say to those people?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So to them, I say, I am a victim of crime.
You know, I'm here as a doctor on behalf of
the a MA to speak about health, and I don't
you know the Chief as I said, the Chief ministerervice
talking about staying in lanes, and I agree, you shouldn't
be you know, I shouldn't have an opinion on the
day and ship lift facility that gets broadcast. You know.
I get that I'm here to talk about health, but
also I'm a Territorian and I live in the same community,
(13:35):
and I go to these same places where these assaults
I'm reminded of every day, and my own my own
space and my own privacy has been invaded as well.
And so if I want to fix that, I want
to make sure we're spending money and time on things
that work. That's what I want. I want this problem
fixed as much as anybody else does. And I'm talking
(13:55):
on a personal level here, not not as representative. So
I want to make sure that we're our money on
things that are evidence based and we know reduce crime.
And our experts are telling us that spit hoods done
in that diagram.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, I am a president for the Northern Territory. Doctor
John Zorbis always appreciate your time. Thank you very much
for joining us on the show.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Today, Thanks Kettie, appreciate the time.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Thank you
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