Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As we know, traditional owners of Buckingham Bay recently made
the decision to close the water to commercial barrel mundy
fishes over gilnet concerns. Traditional owners made that decision due
to the environmental impacts of gilnetting, also citing a lack
of action by the Northern Territory government over the issue.
Buckingham Bay now adds to the list of closures after
(00:22):
the Mini Mini and Morganella were closed for barrow fishing
earlier this year, at which time AFANT, the body representing
recreational fishes, called for an immediate government buyback of those
affected commercial licenses, but it went unheated. Now the CEO,
A David Chirovolo, joins me in the studio now to
delve a little bit further into the situation. Good morning
(00:45):
to you, David.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Great to have you in the studio. Now, tell us
us our fads support the closure of Buckingham Bay two
commercial barrow fishes.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yeah, well, look, I think most fishes would support waters
being closed to.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Gillnett fore like that.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
It's an area where there's been a high level of
commercial fishing. Certainly our recreational fishes at our club there
at Nulan Boy and the locals we've spoken to have
welcomed that decision, and obviously we respect the decision of
the traditional owners to manage their intertidal waters in that way.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Tell us a bit more about what gil nesting is
and why it is so detrimental.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So it's a form of fishing that involves basically stringing
a net. In this case, a license in the territory
has a kilometer of net associated with it. It's usually
sort of a six to seven inch mesh net and
it's set across a tidal flat or across a drain,
and it's designed to be able to catch the fish
(01:44):
in the gills when they swim through it. Now, the
challenge with it is that it doesn't only catch the
species that's intended, but also catches other fish species, but
has been known to catch a lot of the traditional
owners of Jugong's turtles sawfish, which we know are threatened,
protected and endangered species.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So what are our fans concerns with this situation.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Well, primary and immediate concerns are that in the space
of the last six months, we've seen the area where
fifty percent of the commercial gillnet barral mundy catch comes
from be closed by traditional owners and that's their right
to make that decision. But what that means is there
are fewer waters left for the same amount of net
(02:31):
and if the ambition of the commercial sector is to
catch the same amount of fish, we're going to see
higher levels of fishing in those areas that are also
really important for recreational fishing, fishing, tourism and traditional fishing.
So we have had a number of net fishing closure
areas around the territory. But what that means is the
areas that are available for netting have shrunk in the past.
(02:54):
That's been done by the government and the government has
brought out licenses to balance the available fishing area with
the amount of net And.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So is that what needs to happen here? I mean,
do those licensed buybacks need to happen? Does the government
need to start those negotiations.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
I think there are two things that need to happen
in the short term and then there's a longer term
discussion about how this fishery works in general. In the
short term, what we need to see by the start
of the season next year that there are catch quotas
in place based conservatively for each catchment. So we know
(03:29):
that the baron Mundy fishery in the Daily or Anson
Bay is a different fishery to the Ropa River is
a different fishery to and Buckingham Bay, and they have
to be managed as individual stocks. So those limits on
the catch have to occur at that level. Once you
do that, it becomes clear that you can't just have
an area close and have that amount of catch transfer
(03:52):
to another area because you've got a ceiling on it.
You're saying, we've got a balance to keep here between
traditional owners, recreational fishes, commercial fishes and the environment. And
so then you have too many licenses, you have too
much in there and they need to buy out those
affected licenses. That's in the short term. In the long term,
we need to be looking at what is the best
(04:13):
way to share and to access this fishery, what is sustainable,
what fits with community values. And we've seen across the
border in Queensland the federal government have given Queensland government
one hundred and sixty million dollars to phase out barrel
mundy guilnetting.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, right, so in Queensland that's a step they're taking.
So what a block where are we at here in
the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, we currently have a review into this fishery.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
The review was expected to be looking at all parts
of the fishery to look at resource sharing. How we
balance a relatively low value commercial fishery with a very
high value recreational and tourism fishery. Two hundred and seventy
million dollars in the recreational fishing industry in the territory
two and a half thousand jobs. The GVP of this
(05:01):
commercial fishery on average over the last ten years has
been around three point six million dollars, so there is
a huge gulf between the contribution to community. Now, of
course we know that people want to be able to
buy a barrel mundy and come to the NT and
eat barrow mundy at.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
A restaurant, and it should be a premium product.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
There is no reason that it couldn't be done in
a more sustainable way. But the way it currently is
structured as a gillnet fishery means that these problems continue
to occur. And now we've got traditional owners closing those
waters as is their right. The riding is on the
wall for this fishery. It needs a wholesale reform.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I mean, there is no doubt that those that are
commercial fisher operators I would suspect if they are operating
in this way, they're going to be pretty you know,
they're going to be not happy about the situation as
it is currently unfolding. But from what you are saying
in places like Queensland, it's being phased out. I mean,
are you picking a fight here with the commercial fishing
industry of the territory.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
So look, we're there are fisheries in the Northern Territory
that are highly sustainable, that are quota managed, that have
rules in place for catches in certain areas, that have limits.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Of catch for individual fisheries operators.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
We've got fisheries like the Jewfish fishery that has quota
managed line court one fish at a time, Spanish macrorel
quota managed moving to quota management, one fish at a time.
They're highly sustainable, highly productive fisheries that everybody can be
proud of.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So you reckon it just needs to go to that
sustainable way of doing things.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Well, we have to make sure that whatever we do
is in step with community values. But also we can't
ignore the fact that we do have an obligation to
protect those threatened, protected and endangered species. Now, all types
of fishing could have some interactions with tep species, and
it's not about saying, well, if we have one interaction,
(06:56):
we can't have a fishery. We need to be monitoring that.
But to reduce it right down and line fishing or
some forms of trapped fishing or for example, putting crab
pots out and they have much less interactions. But gillnetting
in areas that are tidal have a high prevalence of
these threatened, protected and endangered species. And we know we
(07:18):
haven't been collecting the data so for years and years
and years decades, we don't have great data sets.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
How can that possibly be?
Speaker 1 (07:24):
David, tell me you've written to the Minister for Fishing,
now Paul Kirby. Have you had a response at this stage.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Well, we've had some conversations with Minister Kirby and we
expect to continue to have those conversations. To be fair
to everybody, here as an element of this that has
been foreseeable, we've been saying that it's coming. On the
other hand, it's also a unique challenge because in the past,
as I said, when areas have been closed that have
been closed by the government, and there's been buyouts and compensation.
(07:53):
Now we have a law in this country, it's Commonwealth law.
It's been in place for a long time and now
it's being ex where traditional loaners are saying, well, we
have the right to say what's happening here, and they're
making those decisions. That's a decision they've made. Now they
might change their mind in some places. Other places might
also decide. Those traditionalis might decide to close their waters.
So the government is playing catch up. We've got fisheries
(08:14):
management for this Barrow fishery that is very old.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It's decades old.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
It doesn't anticipate people moving around a lot. We've got
people moving around a lot now and that's why the
management needs to change and that's what we've asked the
Minister to intervene and to do in the immediate term
prior to the next season.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And we need to continue to walk to reform the
whole fishery.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So it sounds like this is something that happened that
needs to happen pretty immediately from your perspective.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Well, look, we've been calling for reform of the Barrow
Mundy fishery for a long time. We sought a commitment
at the last election and received a commitment to have
a review of the fishery. I don't know whether that
review is currently going in the right direction, but events
are overtaking us here anyway.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, and I mean, what kind of impact is it
then having on recreational fishing in the northern territory.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Well, look, we know from the fishes who fish in
those places where there have been high levels of commercial fishing,
like Buckingham Bay, that the locals have been screaming about
that for years and the traditional owners have been.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Upset about that too.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
We've had reports from the last couple of weeks that
there's been a high level of fishing pressure in Anson
Bay as we wind up towards the end of the season,
and apparently the recreational fishing has been terrible. But we're
now faced with the situation. The territory is the mecha
for recreational fishing tourism for Barramundy. This is the backbone
of the fishery. Across the border in Queensland, they've announced
(09:39):
that they're phasing out this. The fishing is going to
continue to improve up and down the coast in Queensland
and we've got a serious competitor on our hands, so
we need to also make sure that not only do
we maintain and protect our environment and our fisheries and
balance that sustainably, but we don't lose our competitive advantage
with Queensland.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So what are you calling for today?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Today we've called on the government, or last week we've
called on the government to implement formal commercial catch quotas
at that catchment level and then they need to buy
out affected Baramundy licenses to balance that amount of net
with available waters. We then need to crack on in
double time with the review of the fishery to look
(10:21):
seriously at how this fits with what is ecologically and
socially sustainable. And you know, I think we also should
be looking at the federal governments. Given the Queensland government
one hundred and sixty million dollars, why are the issues
that are important in Queensland not important in the territory.
And also we've got waters adjacent to Kakadoo where when
(10:43):
this fishery applied for its export accreditation the minister wrote
back and said, withdraw your application and pay attention to
the waters adjacent to Kakado. We've got Indigenous protected areas
that are conservation areas around the territory. Those are federal
government responsibilities. So it's not just the territory government alone here.
We all need to pull together to see how we
(11:05):
can restructure this fishery to really meet the needs.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Of the day.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You said you've written to the Northern Territory Minister, Paul Kirby.
Where are you at with the federal government, I mean,
have you followed them up and have you had any response.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Well, look, that's certainly something that we are considering. We
don't think that's something that needs necessarily to do alone
because I can imagine that really the industry, avan the
guided fishing industry, potentially traditional owners and the Northern Territory
government should all be thinking that they shouldn't be alone
(11:40):
in this and that if resourcing is a key component,
which it undoubtedly is, that we could be making a
joint approach eventually to the federal government.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Now that's not something that's currently happening. That's probably my part.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, look, in an ideal world, it would be we're
not going to hold back, will continue to work on this.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
We've been working on it for a long.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Time, but really events have overtaken the chance to reform
this fishery in a piecemeal way.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I think it's.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Pretty clear to see that we can't just keep having
more nets crammed into smaller areas, and we can't keep
having fishing going in a way that's compromising the territory's
most valuable fishery, which is its recreation fishery.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, look, it seems to me like there maybe does
need to be an approach here where, like you've said,
it might be a pipe dream for you, where everybody
does join forces and you actually approach the federal government
in a constructive way and go, we've got to sort
this out. We've got to sort it out fast.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Well, look, I think that's absolutely you know, my phone's on.
I'm more than happy to take anyone's calls.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I've been reaching out to counterparts as well, of course,
to have those conversations. Those conversations are an early phase
and I don't have anything more to say about that now.
But regardless of whether the federal government comes to the party,
it is a territory managed fishery in these inshore waters.
So the territory government does have the responsibility the management
is out of day.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Events have overtaken it.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Now is the time to act and then we can
get our heads together to work out how we restructure
this going forward.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, David Giirovolo, it's always good to catch up with you.
I really appreciate your time this morning and for talking
us through this issue.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Thanks Katie, thank you,
As we know, traditional owners of Buckingham Bay recently made
the decision to close the water to commercial barrel mundy
fishes over gilnet concerns. Traditional owners made that decision due
to the environmental impacts of gilnetting, also citing a lack
of action by the Northern Territory government over the issue.
Buckingham Bay now adds to the list of closures after
(00:22):
the Mini Mini and Morganella were closed for barrow fishing
earlier this year, at which time AFANT, the body representing
recreational fishes, called for an immediate government buyback of those
affected commercial licenses, but it went unheated. Now the CEO,
A David Chirovolo, joins me in the studio now to
delve a little bit further into the situation. Good morning
(00:45):
to you, David.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Great to have you in the studio. Now, tell us
us our fads support the closure of Buckingham Bay two
commercial barrow fishes.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yeah, well, look, I think most fishes would support waters
being closed to.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Gillnett fore like that.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
It's an area where there's been a high level of
commercial fishing. Certainly our recreational fishes at our club there
at Nulan Boy and the locals we've spoken to have
welcomed that decision, and obviously we respect the decision of
the traditional owners to manage their intertidal waters in that way.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Tell us a bit more about what gil nesting is
and why it is so detrimental.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So it's a form of fishing that involves basically stringing
a net. In this case, a license in the territory
has a kilometer of net associated with it. It's usually
sort of a six to seven inch mesh net and
it's set across a tidal flat or across a drain,
and it's designed to be able to catch the fish
(01:44):
in the gills when they swim through it. Now, the
challenge with it is that it doesn't only catch the
species that's intended, but also catches other fish species, but
has been known to catch a lot of the traditional
owners of Jugong's turtles sawfish, which we know are threatened,
protected and endangered species.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So what are our fans concerns with this situation.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Well, primary and immediate concerns are that in the space
of the last six months, we've seen the area where
fifty percent of the commercial gillnet barral mundy catch comes
from be closed by traditional owners and that's their right
to make that decision. But what that means is there
are fewer waters left for the same amount of net
(02:31):
and if the ambition of the commercial sector is to
catch the same amount of fish, we're going to see
higher levels of fishing in those areas that are also
really important for recreational fishing, fishing, tourism and traditional fishing.
So we have had a number of net fishing closure
areas around the territory. But what that means is the
areas that are available for netting have shrunk in the past.
(02:54):
That's been done by the government and the government has
brought out licenses to balance the available fishing area with
the amount of net And.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So is that what needs to happen here? I mean,
do those licensed buybacks need to happen? Does the government
need to start those negotiations.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
I think there are two things that need to happen
in the short term and then there's a longer term
discussion about how this fishery works in general. In the
short term, what we need to see by the start
of the season next year that there are catch quotas
in place based conservatively for each catchment. So we know
(03:29):
that the baron Mundy fishery in the Daily or Anson
Bay is a different fishery to the Ropa River is
a different fishery to and Buckingham Bay, and they have
to be managed as individual stocks. So those limits on
the catch have to occur at that level. Once you
do that, it becomes clear that you can't just have
an area close and have that amount of catch transfer
(03:52):
to another area because you've got a ceiling on it.
You're saying, we've got a balance to keep here between
traditional owners, recreational fishes, commercial fishes and the environment. And
so then you have too many licenses, you have too
much in there and they need to buy out those
affected licenses. That's in the short term. In the long term,
we need to be looking at what is the best
(04:13):
way to share and to access this fishery, what is sustainable,
what fits with community values. And we've seen across the
border in Queensland the federal government have given Queensland government
one hundred and sixty million dollars to phase out barrel
mundy guilnetting.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, right, so in Queensland that's a step they're taking.
So what a block where are we at here in
the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, we currently have a review into this fishery.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
The review was expected to be looking at all parts
of the fishery to look at resource sharing. How we
balance a relatively low value commercial fishery with a very
high value recreational and tourism fishery. Two hundred and seventy
million dollars in the recreational fishing industry in the territory
two and a half thousand jobs. The GVP of this
(05:01):
commercial fishery on average over the last ten years has
been around three point six million dollars, so there is
a huge gulf between the contribution to community. Now, of
course we know that people want to be able to
buy a barrel mundy and come to the NT and
eat barrow mundy at.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
A restaurant, and it should be a premium product.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
There is no reason that it couldn't be done in
a more sustainable way. But the way it currently is
structured as a gillnet fishery means that these problems continue
to occur. And now we've got traditional owners closing those
waters as is their right. The riding is on the
wall for this fishery. It needs a wholesale reform.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I mean, there is no doubt that those that are
commercial fisher operators I would suspect if they are operating
in this way, they're going to be pretty you know,
they're going to be not happy about the situation as
it is currently unfolding. But from what you are saying
in places like Queensland, it's being phased out. I mean,
are you picking a fight here with the commercial fishing
industry of the territory.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
So look, we're there are fisheries in the Northern Territory
that are highly sustainable, that are quota managed, that have
rules in place for catches in certain areas, that have limits.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Of catch for individual fisheries operators.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
We've got fisheries like the Jewfish fishery that has quota
managed line court one fish at a time, Spanish macrorel
quota managed moving to quota management, one fish at a time.
They're highly sustainable, highly productive fisheries that everybody can be
proud of.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So you reckon it just needs to go to that
sustainable way of doing things.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Well, we have to make sure that whatever we do
is in step with community values. But also we can't
ignore the fact that we do have an obligation to
protect those threatened, protected and endangered species. Now, all types
of fishing could have some interactions with tep species, and
it's not about saying, well, if we have one interaction,
(06:56):
we can't have a fishery. We need to be monitoring that.
But to reduce it right down and line fishing or
some forms of trapped fishing or for example, putting crab
pots out and they have much less interactions. But gillnetting
in areas that are tidal have a high prevalence of
these threatened, protected and endangered species. And we know we
(07:18):
haven't been collecting the data so for years and years
and years decades, we don't have great data sets.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
How can that possibly be?
Speaker 1 (07:24):
David, tell me you've written to the Minister for Fishing,
now Paul Kirby. Have you had a response at this stage.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Well, we've had some conversations with Minister Kirby and we
expect to continue to have those conversations. To be fair
to everybody, here as an element of this that has
been foreseeable, we've been saying that it's coming. On the
other hand, it's also a unique challenge because in the past,
as I said, when areas have been closed that have
been closed by the government, and there's been buyouts and compensation.
(07:53):
Now we have a law in this country, it's Commonwealth law.
It's been in place for a long time and now
it's being ex where traditional loaners are saying, well, we
have the right to say what's happening here, and they're
making those decisions. That's a decision they've made. Now they
might change their mind in some places. Other places might
also decide. Those traditionalis might decide to close their waters.
So the government is playing catch up. We've got fisheries
(08:14):
management for this Barrow fishery that is very old.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It's decades old.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
It doesn't anticipate people moving around a lot. We've got
people moving around a lot now and that's why the
management needs to change and that's what we've asked the
Minister to intervene and to do in the immediate term
prior to the next season.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And we need to continue to walk to reform the
whole fishery.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So it sounds like this is something that happened that
needs to happen pretty immediately from your perspective.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Well, look, we've been calling for reform of the Barrow
Mundy fishery for a long time. We sought a commitment
at the last election and received a commitment to have
a review of the fishery. I don't know whether that
review is currently going in the right direction, but events
are overtaking us here anyway.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, and I mean, what kind of impact is it
then having on recreational fishing in the northern territory.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Well, look, we know from the fishes who fish in
those places where there have been high levels of commercial fishing,
like Buckingham Bay, that the locals have been screaming about
that for years and the traditional owners have been.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Upset about that too.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
We've had reports from the last couple of weeks that
there's been a high level of fishing pressure in Anson
Bay as we wind up towards the end of the season,
and apparently the recreational fishing has been terrible. But we're
now faced with the situation. The territory is the mecha
for recreational fishing tourism for Barramundy. This is the backbone
of the fishery. Across the border in Queensland, they've announced
(09:39):
that they're phasing out this. The fishing is going to
continue to improve up and down the coast in Queensland
and we've got a serious competitor on our hands, so
we need to also make sure that not only do
we maintain and protect our environment and our fisheries and
balance that sustainably, but we don't lose our competitive advantage
with Queensland.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So what are you calling for today?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Today we've called on the government, or last week we've
called on the government to implement formal commercial catch quotas
at that catchment level and then they need to buy
out affected Baramundy licenses to balance that amount of net
with available waters. We then need to crack on in
double time with the review of the fishery to look
(10:21):
seriously at how this fits with what is ecologically and
socially sustainable. And you know, I think we also should
be looking at the federal governments. Given the Queensland government
one hundred and sixty million dollars, why are the issues
that are important in Queensland not important in the territory.
And also we've got waters adjacent to Kakadoo where when
(10:43):
this fishery applied for its export accreditation the minister wrote
back and said, withdraw your application and pay attention to
the waters adjacent to Kakado. We've got Indigenous protected areas
that are conservation areas around the territory. Those are federal
government responsibilities. So it's not just the territory government alone here.
We all need to pull together to see how we
(11:05):
can restructure this fishery to really meet the needs.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Of the day.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You said you've written to the Northern Territory Minister, Paul Kirby.
Where are you at with the federal government, I mean,
have you followed them up and have you had any response.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Well, look, that's certainly something that we are considering. We
don't think that's something that needs necessarily to do alone
because I can imagine that really the industry, avan the
guided fishing industry, potentially traditional owners and the Northern Territory
government should all be thinking that they shouldn't be alone
(11:40):
in this and that if resourcing is a key component,
which it undoubtedly is, that we could be making a
joint approach eventually to the federal government.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Now that's not something that's currently happening. That's probably my part.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, look, in an ideal world, it would be we're
not going to hold back, will continue to work on this.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
We've been working on it for a long.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Time, but really events have overtaken the chance to reform
this fishery in a piecemeal way.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I think it's.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Pretty clear to see that we can't just keep having
more nets crammed into smaller areas, and we can't keep
having fishing going in a way that's compromising the territory's
most valuable fishery, which is its recreation fishery.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, look, it seems to me like there maybe does
need to be an approach here where, like you've said,
it might be a pipe dream for you, where everybody
does join forces and you actually approach the federal government
in a constructive way and go, we've got to sort
this out. We've got to sort it out fast.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Well, look, I think that's absolutely you know, my phone's on.
I'm more than happy to take anyone's calls.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I've been reaching out to counterparts as well, of course,
to have those conversations. Those conversations are an early phase
and I don't have anything more to say about that now.
But regardless of whether the federal government comes to the party,
it is a territory managed fishery in these inshore waters.
So the territory government does have the responsibility the management
is out of day.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Events have overtaken it.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Now is the time to act and then we can
get our heads together to work out how we restructure
this going forward.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, David Giirovolo, it's always good to catch up with you.
I really appreciate your time this morning and for talking
us through this issue.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Thanks Katie, thank you,
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