Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
According to a new report I should say from the
Australian Strategic Policy Institute, Australia must urgently invest in the
North to secure the nation's prosperity, security and resilience. Now,
the report Northern Australia Securing a Developing Economy to Secure
a Developed Nation, by doctor John Coyn, an adjunct Professor
(00:22):
Ian Stratchwell, warns that although the North is central to
Australia's future economic trade and its national defense posture, it
faces structural challenges that threaten its ability to deliver on
that potential. Now joining me on the line is doctor
John Coyn, the Australian Strategic Policy Institute's Director of National Security.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Good morning to you, doctor Coin.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Good morning Katie. You know what I make heart every
time with a long titles. I'm really sorry.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We don't mind at all, mate.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I think it explains to people what you do, what
your job, which is very important. And you know how
much I love Northern Australia. So I think this is
a report that is definitely worth hearing about.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Why did you undertake it? Why was it done?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Look, it was about a twelve month thin project and
a passion project at the end of the day, I'm
in the same way. I love Northern Australia, and all
I see when I'm whether I'm in Weeper, whether I'm
in Dahwin, whether I'm in Broom, I'd see people all
the time who are not asking for handouts, who are
sitting there trying to really make economic growth happen in
(01:37):
their communities. And also in my workout of the last
eight years on Northern Australia, there's been a constant pattern
where I see from Federation of now where every ten
years people get excited about the North, but you know
they they just can't quite land it. The third part was, look,
you know I did worry and it took a little while.
(01:57):
You know, if I call I love the North, but
calling it a developing economy and a developed nation did
run the risk of upsetting some people in the North
and it wasn't meant to do that. What it's meant
to do is be sort of a cash cris to say, look,
we really need to do more in Northern Australia. Some
of the things we've got now are doing well, like
the Northern Australian Infrastructure Facility, but that is not going
(02:20):
to be enough and the policies that we use in
places like Sydney and Melbourne for economic growth are not
going to be enough to cool and generate more growth
in Northern Australia.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So John, tell us what exactly did you look into?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Really what we did is we went back through being
and I went back through and we looked at a
range of economic factors. And here we're talking about all
those sort of economic figures that the general public they
you know, they'll come out in the NT news every
sort of six to twelve months and people say about
growth or investment, about a private sector investment, about revenue, populations,
(02:57):
education standards. And then we started looking try to compare
them to the rest of Australia to prove our theory
that you know, there are in fact two economies in
Australia and I've said this to you before, the economy
in the South and the economy in the North. And
that's what we set out to do. But more importantly,
what we wanted to do is look and go, well,
how can we provide some recommendations and a roadmap that
(03:18):
is somewhat different that addresses these problems. And we also
were left and this is a very difficult question, and
in fact it came up in some of the peer
reviews from a colleague of mine, and that was, you know,
why why does a resource rich place like Northern Australia,
why is it an economy more like Sudan that it
is like the UAE or Qatar in terms of being
(03:42):
resource rich, but no real money there. And so what
we sort of do was started to try to look
at how can we plot a path towards that.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And what's that path look like? What do we need
to do? Because it's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
That you make, why are we not you know, why
are we not doing better than what we should be?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Look, you know what we've sort of developed and the idea.
As soon as someone comes up with an idea, there'll
be a thousand knockers out there. He'll say that why
it won't work, or separately that there's better ways to
do it. So what we wanted to do was draw
a line of the scene. So we developed a sort
of three phase idea and the first one is about
strategic alignment, which is what needs to be done in
twenty twenty six, and that's first off, the North and
(04:23):
people trying to do things in the North. One of
the big inhibiting factors is trying to raise capital, so
money to invest, and so there we thought about what
we really need to do is establish some sort of
fufilling different from the KNAFE that actually has through probably
a similar mechanism to the National Reconstruction Fund and is
(04:44):
able to accept the higher risk of investing in Northern Australia.
Big part also is really about funding critical enablers, and
that's the infrastructure that we need. So you know, it's
really hard at the moment as it stands. If I
want to start a new mine, a new agricultural acttivity
and new manufacturing activity in Northern Australia, I have to
pay for all the infrastructure, the roads, the head of
(05:06):
works and everything else to make that happen. And so
in a way that you don't have to do if
you're doing that sort of activity in the Southern States.
So really about funding critical enablers. The other part is
is that we do need to see greater collaboration between
the state and territory governments and the federal government. Quite often,
(05:26):
you know, there's a numerable number of grant programs and
other facilities and other arrangements, and if you're a business
person operating out of matterancor and you're looking at how
to navigate that system, it is just so complex and
so that comes to also matting it. The base two
is really about localization and leverage, and I can give
(05:46):
you a whole heap of things, but the bottom line
is is that if you want to work in Northern Australia,
then you have to pay. You have to pay and
engage with the local economy. That means, you know, as
much as possible, you know, local supplies and local content,
and that may cost more in the short term, but
unfortunately that is the only way that we will drive
(06:07):
growth in businesses across Northern Australia.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
The other thing too is we do have to have
them think about regional capability centers and that means that
you know, like not all places are going to be
able to grow at the same rate. So you know,
here there's no doubt that towns like towns will Hans Darwin.
You know, they should really be hubs of industrial activity
(06:32):
for the North and that's where we should focus, at
least at the start point our efforts. But very much
all of this process is about national integration and it's
building the infrastructure both. You know, at the end of
the day, it is a travesty that people in Taiwan
still almost on an annual basis, have their roads cut
off by flood events that we know will occur each year.
(06:55):
We can sort of understand it if you're in Weeper,
but in Darwin that's something that's just unacceptable. It is
as well, John.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
How do you, like, how do we get past it?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Because I think, you know, politically, the way I kind
of see what happens. I guess is that because our
population is not as great as what it is in
some suburbs of Sydney for example. You know, when it
comes to votes, and when it comes to winning elections
on a federal stage, you know, the Northern Territory or
Kanninara or Cans may not win it, you know, for
(07:30):
whoever's vying to be the next Prime minister. But the
reality of it is you do actually need to invest
in regional Australia and what Regional Australia does for the
rest of Australia is quite phenomenal. But how do you
sort of you know, how do you sell that sizzle?
I suppose to to the FEDS for example, when you know, fundamentally,
(07:50):
I know they'll always say that they're going to invest
in the North, or they're going to do this, they're
going to do that, but you know, at the end
of the day, the votes are in those major centers.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Look, Katie, I'm a number of years ago just when
I just after I started at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute,
I was doing a Sky News interview and I was
getting hammered hard by an interviewer on live TV and
they asked me this question. You know, it was about
a specific decision and they said, oh, you know, was
it a political decision? And then the answer was, We'll look,
(08:20):
all the decisions that are made in Canberra have a
political dimension. So yes, you are right there. You know
there's politics have at play, but you know there's no
option to give up on this. So the option here
is is what we need to do is pull in
that political power from across all of the North and
believe I'm not on both sides of the when it
(08:40):
comes to representation in the North is a great deal
of agreement and push forward on terms of support the
Northern development. Secondly, as we have to wrap in those
states and territories who also you know, before COVID, people
said the Federation was dead and that you know, the
Commonwealth government was taking up all the power. Well COVID
nineteen showed just how powerful the states and territories really
(09:02):
are and the Federation today is alive as well, so
that there is that's additional political pressure. And the other
part is is that you know, if you don't spend
that dollar to day, let me assure your history has
shown us that you'll be spending significantly more money in
the future. Backing in Northern Australia where you have to
paper services anyway, I guess there's a real strategic rhyme
(09:25):
and reason to this. Lots of work to be done
and I'm not naive about it, but I do believe
in Northern Australia. I do believe there's opportunity. I also
know that you know those ten year cycles that I
talked about earlier that have happened since federation, that's made
some people across Northern Australia cynical and tied, and understandably so.
(09:46):
But this is where you know, sort of sitting it
going it's impossible or it's difficult. There's no doubt that
that it's difficult, But what are the other options? So
my viewpoint here with the report really was is to
offer government and the general public something core, which is
some contested policy advice. Yeah, to draw conversations and improve
(10:08):
the actual discussion as we're having today. And so you know,
with the choices here are we sit and let it
play out as it is, or we do something different.
You know, the very local content on this. You know,
at the end of the day, struck very proud of
its relationship with Japan. As example, IMPEX has been brought
significant opportunity in the Northern Territory and some other challenges,
(10:30):
but the majority of impex's workforce now is located in
Perth and a majority of the income related to it
ends up down there. So you know, that's a story
of how local content could be somewhat different.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, and how you really trying to get some of
those major organizations to stay, you know, in places like
Darwin rather than setting up headquarters then in the likes
of Perth. You know, I think it's really fascinating John,
as you know, as I said right from the get go.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I love Northern Australia.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
To me, I just can't understand why the rest of
Australia doesn't want to live in Northern Australia.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
But I get this all the time. So the next
thing people say, look, I'm quite often I've been said
about you know, why do I have a center in
Canberra not in Darwin? And I quite often go back
to the various people say, well, at the end of
the day, I don't have to convince the people in
Darwin or in Cawns or in Towns or how great
(11:23):
Northern Australia is. The work that I've got to do
is down here in Canada. But you know, there is
this huge challenge of attracting people. There is unfortunately some
poor mythology around what it's like to live in Northern Australia.
You know, when I come up, I'm going to come
up numerous times a year, and I make sure that
I bring my family up there. My why from my
(11:44):
twelve year old up to Darwin at least once a year.
I love the Northern Territory. I love Northern Australia. You're
absolutely right, But you know, at the end of the day,
there is the mythology that we have to try to
untick and secondly that economic growth and job opportunities that
will really drive population growth and the future development of
(12:05):
Northern Australia. And that's not just about what's good for
Northern Australia, it's what's good for Australia economically. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Well, doctor John Coyne, I always appreciate your time. It
is wonderful to catch up with you this morning, and
I appreciate you talking us through this report. Like I said,
I think it's really interesting and it is absolutely essential
that those discussions have had.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Thanks Cattie, good to catch up with you, Thank you,
Thank you,
According to a new report I should say from the
Australian Strategic Policy Institute, Australia must urgently invest in the
North to secure the nation's prosperity, security and resilience. Now,
the report Northern Australia Securing a Developing Economy to Secure
a Developed Nation, by doctor John Coyn, an adjunct Professor
(00:22):
Ian Stratchwell, warns that although the North is central to
Australia's future economic trade and its national defense posture, it
faces structural challenges that threaten its ability to deliver on
that potential. Now joining me on the line is doctor
John Coyn, the Australian Strategic Policy Institute's Director of National Security.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Good morning to you, doctor Coin.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Good morning Katie. You know what I make heart every
time with a long titles. I'm really sorry.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We don't mind at all, mate.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I think it explains to people what you do, what
your job, which is very important. And you know how
much I love Northern Australia. So I think this is
a report that is definitely worth hearing about.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Why did you undertake it? Why was it done?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Look, it was about a twelve month thin project and
a passion project at the end of the day, I'm
in the same way. I love Northern Australia, and all
I see when I'm whether I'm in Weeper, whether I'm
in Dahwin, whether I'm in Broom, I'd see people all
the time who are not asking for handouts, who are
sitting there trying to really make economic growth happen in
(01:37):
their communities. And also in my workout of the last
eight years on Northern Australia, there's been a constant pattern
where I see from Federation of now where every ten
years people get excited about the North, but you know
they they just can't quite land it. The third part was, look,
you know I did worry and it took a little while.
(01:57):
You know, if I call I love the North, but
calling it a developing economy and a developed nation did
run the risk of upsetting some people in the North
and it wasn't meant to do that. What it's meant
to do is be sort of a cash cris to say, look,
we really need to do more in Northern Australia. Some
of the things we've got now are doing well, like
the Northern Australian Infrastructure Facility, but that is not going
(02:20):
to be enough and the policies that we use in
places like Sydney and Melbourne for economic growth are not
going to be enough to cool and generate more growth
in Northern Australia.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So John, tell us what exactly did you look into?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Really what we did is we went back through being
and I went back through and we looked at a
range of economic factors. And here we're talking about all
those sort of economic figures that the general public they
you know, they'll come out in the NT news every
sort of six to twelve months and people say about
growth or investment, about a private sector investment, about revenue, populations,
(02:57):
education standards. And then we started looking try to compare
them to the rest of Australia to prove our theory
that you know, there are in fact two economies in
Australia and I've said this to you before, the economy
in the South and the economy in the North. And
that's what we set out to do. But more importantly,
what we wanted to do is look and go, well,
how can we provide some recommendations and a roadmap that
(03:18):
is somewhat different that addresses these problems. And we also
were left and this is a very difficult question, and
in fact it came up in some of the peer
reviews from a colleague of mine, and that was, you know,
why why does a resource rich place like Northern Australia,
why is it an economy more like Sudan that it
is like the UAE or Qatar in terms of being
(03:42):
resource rich, but no real money there. And so what
we sort of do was started to try to look
at how can we plot a path towards that.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And what's that path look like? What do we need
to do? Because it's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
That you make, why are we not you know, why
are we not doing better than what we should be?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Look, you know what we've sort of developed and the idea.
As soon as someone comes up with an idea, there'll
be a thousand knockers out there. He'll say that why
it won't work, or separately that there's better ways to
do it. So what we wanted to do was draw
a line of the scene. So we developed a sort
of three phase idea and the first one is about
strategic alignment, which is what needs to be done in
twenty twenty six, and that's first off, the North and
(04:23):
people trying to do things in the North. One of
the big inhibiting factors is trying to raise capital, so
money to invest, and so there we thought about what
we really need to do is establish some sort of
fufilling different from the KNAFE that actually has through probably
a similar mechanism to the National Reconstruction Fund and is
(04:44):
able to accept the higher risk of investing in Northern Australia.
Big part also is really about funding critical enablers, and
that's the infrastructure that we need. So you know, it's
really hard at the moment as it stands. If I
want to start a new mine, a new agricultural acttivity
and new manufacturing activity in Northern Australia, I have to
pay for all the infrastructure, the roads, the head of
(05:06):
works and everything else to make that happen. And so
in a way that you don't have to do if
you're doing that sort of activity in the Southern States.
So really about funding critical enablers. The other part is
is that we do need to see greater collaboration between
the state and territory governments and the federal government. Quite often,
(05:26):
you know, there's a numerable number of grant programs and
other facilities and other arrangements, and if you're a business
person operating out of matterancor and you're looking at how
to navigate that system, it is just so complex and
so that comes to also matting it. The base two
is really about localization and leverage, and I can give
(05:46):
you a whole heap of things, but the bottom line
is is that if you want to work in Northern Australia,
then you have to pay. You have to pay and
engage with the local economy. That means, you know, as
much as possible, you know, local supplies and local content,
and that may cost more in the short term, but
unfortunately that is the only way that we will drive
(06:07):
growth in businesses across Northern Australia.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
The other thing too is we do have to have
them think about regional capability centers and that means that
you know, like not all places are going to be
able to grow at the same rate. So you know,
here there's no doubt that towns like towns will Hans Darwin.
You know, they should really be hubs of industrial activity
(06:32):
for the North and that's where we should focus, at
least at the start point our efforts. But very much
all of this process is about national integration and it's
building the infrastructure both. You know, at the end of
the day, it is a travesty that people in Taiwan
still almost on an annual basis, have their roads cut
off by flood events that we know will occur each year.
(06:55):
We can sort of understand it if you're in Weeper,
but in Darwin that's something that's just unacceptable. It is
as well, John.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
How do you, like, how do we get past it?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Because I think, you know, politically, the way I kind
of see what happens. I guess is that because our
population is not as great as what it is in
some suburbs of Sydney for example. You know, when it
comes to votes, and when it comes to winning elections
on a federal stage, you know, the Northern Territory or
Kanninara or Cans may not win it, you know, for
(07:30):
whoever's vying to be the next Prime minister. But the
reality of it is you do actually need to invest
in regional Australia and what Regional Australia does for the
rest of Australia is quite phenomenal. But how do you
sort of you know, how do you sell that sizzle?
I suppose to to the FEDS for example, when you know, fundamentally,
(07:50):
I know they'll always say that they're going to invest
in the North, or they're going to do this, they're
going to do that, but you know, at the end
of the day, the votes are in those major centers.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Look, Katie, I'm a number of years ago just when
I just after I started at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute,
I was doing a Sky News interview and I was
getting hammered hard by an interviewer on live TV and
they asked me this question. You know, it was about
a specific decision and they said, oh, you know, was
it a political decision? And then the answer was, We'll look,
(08:20):
all the decisions that are made in Canberra have a
political dimension. So yes, you are right there. You know
there's politics have at play, but you know there's no
option to give up on this. So the option here
is is what we need to do is pull in
that political power from across all of the North and
believe I'm not on both sides of the when it
(08:40):
comes to representation in the North is a great deal
of agreement and push forward on terms of support the
Northern development. Secondly, as we have to wrap in those
states and territories who also you know, before COVID, people
said the Federation was dead and that you know, the
Commonwealth government was taking up all the power. Well COVID
nineteen showed just how powerful the states and territories really
(09:02):
are and the Federation today is alive as well, so
that there is that's additional political pressure. And the other
part is is that you know, if you don't spend
that dollar to day, let me assure your history has
shown us that you'll be spending significantly more money in
the future. Backing in Northern Australia where you have to
paper services anyway, I guess there's a real strategic rhyme
(09:25):
and reason to this. Lots of work to be done
and I'm not naive about it, but I do believe
in Northern Australia. I do believe there's opportunity. I also
know that you know those ten year cycles that I
talked about earlier that have happened since federation, that's made
some people across Northern Australia cynical and tied, and understandably so.
(09:46):
But this is where you know, sort of sitting it
going it's impossible or it's difficult. There's no doubt that
that it's difficult, But what are the other options? So
my viewpoint here with the report really was is to
offer government and the general public something core, which is
some contested policy advice. Yeah, to draw conversations and improve
(10:08):
the actual discussion as we're having today. And so you know,
with the choices here are we sit and let it
play out as it is, or we do something different.
You know, the very local content on this. You know,
at the end of the day, struck very proud of
its relationship with Japan. As example, IMPEX has been brought
significant opportunity in the Northern Territory and some other challenges,
(10:30):
but the majority of impex's workforce now is located in
Perth and a majority of the income related to it
ends up down there. So you know, that's a story
of how local content could be somewhat different.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, and how you really trying to get some of
those major organizations to stay, you know, in places like
Darwin rather than setting up headquarters then in the likes
of Perth. You know, I think it's really fascinating John,
as you know, as I said right from the get go.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I love Northern Australia.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
To me, I just can't understand why the rest of
Australia doesn't want to live in Northern Australia.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
But I get this all the time. So the next
thing people say, look, I'm quite often I've been said
about you know, why do I have a center in
Canberra not in Darwin? And I quite often go back
to the various people say, well, at the end of
the day, I don't have to convince the people in
Darwin or in Cawns or in Towns or how great
(11:23):
Northern Australia is. The work that I've got to do
is down here in Canada. But you know, there is
this huge challenge of attracting people. There is unfortunately some
poor mythology around what it's like to live in Northern Australia.
You know, when I come up, I'm going to come
up numerous times a year, and I make sure that
I bring my family up there. My why from my
(11:44):
twelve year old up to Darwin at least once a year.
I love the Northern Territory. I love Northern Australia. You're
absolutely right, But you know, at the end of the day,
there is the mythology that we have to try to
untick and secondly that economic growth and job opportunities that
will really drive population growth and the future development of
(12:05):
Northern Australia. And that's not just about what's good for
Northern Australia, it's what's good for Australia economically. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Well, doctor John Coyne, I always appreciate your time. It
is wonderful to catch up with you this morning, and
I appreciate you talking us through this report. Like I said,
I think it's really interesting and it is absolutely essential
that those discussions have had.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Thanks Cattie, good to catch up with you, Thank you,
Thank you,
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