Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now we know. The Northern Territory government say it will
refer these stalled public service wage negotiations to the Fair
Work Commission after workers voted down the latest payoffer. The
proposed Northern Territory Public Service Enterprise Agreement would have delivered
our three percent annual pay rise over four years, compounding
to more than twelve percent, but the unions and the
(00:22):
workers rejected the deal, citing cost of living concerns and
a lack of trust in government priorities. Now the government
say they're disappointed, arguing the offer provides real wage growth
above Darwin CPI, which currently sits at one point six percent,
with the Minister Joe Hersey saying public sector wages already
(00:43):
account for forty one percent of the budget and blamed
labor for leaving the territory's finances in poor shape. Now
the matter is now going to go before Fair Work.
And joining us on the line is David Vilagus, the
Regional Secretary of the CPSU. Good morning to you, David,
(01:03):
Good morning Katie, Thanks so much for your time. Now, David,
what was the main reason that the public sector workers
voted against the three percent annual pay rise offer?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well? O Katie, it's there's a lot of focus on
just the pay, but it's much bigger than that. You know,
we're talking about a number of really important conditions that
are being removed from the Enterprise Agreement, and for a
lot of our members, what the government is offering in
terms of pay just doesn't justify voting yes, right, But
(01:37):
in terms of the pay itself, I mean, look, we've
our members, as you know, they've been subjected to wage
freezers during periods where CPI was going through the roof.
We also know that it's just as a result of
those wage freezers, the NTPs is no longer competitive with
other jurisdictions. People are leaving in droves, and what we
(02:00):
also need to do, and this is one of those
key issues that all the unions agree on, and we
don't know whys agree on everything, ye, but if there's
one thing that all the unions are on the same
side about is that the attraction and retention issue in
the NTPs is really serious and needs to be addressed.
So what's currently on offer just isn't good enough.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So what are some of the conditions that you mentioned
just a moment ago, Because I know for a lot
of people listening if they're not a public you know,
if they're not a public service worker, they might be
listening thinking, come on, guys, you've been offered three percent
over the next few years. You know what conditions could
possibly be getting taken away from you that that's not
(02:42):
good enough.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Well, o, Katie, we've got really important redundancy protections in
the Enterprise Agreement. They're looking at scrapping that. The only reason,
the only justification they've provided for removing those important protections
is while it wasn't the years ago, So why do
we need it now? Right We've had a government that's
(03:04):
said until their base is blue that they're not going
to cut public service jobs. But then why remove important
redundancy protections? Why are you giving the Commissioner for Public
Employment more powers over their industrial entitlements? Right? But Katie,
the really serious issue is that we cannot afford to
(03:25):
continue down the path that we are on, and successive
governments aren't putting the emphasis on how important it is
to keep public servants in the Northern Territory because right
now we're constantly chasing our tails. Right now, we're doing
our best to get as many people as possible to
try and apply and they leave as soon as they
can because it's just not competitive. And the nt is
a very very complex jurisdiction. It's unlike any other jurisdiction
(03:49):
in the country, and you need to make it worthwhile
to people who are listening who aren't public servants. Every
single person in the Northern Territory has a vested interest
in the Northern Territory Public Service working and flourishing. Right,
Even the paying conditions for the NTPs set the standard
(04:09):
for everybody else, And all the unions will tell you
as soon as they're going to negotiations after the NTPs
has been settled, they'll go into an employment situation and
they'll say, well, we're only going to offer this because
the public service got this as well. Right, So every
single person, even their paying conditions, relies on the public service,
And of course every single person relies on the services.
(04:30):
How often aren't people I listen to your show, people
talking about, you know, the amount of time they have
to wait at the hospital, the amount of time it
takes to get a phone call answered by the police.
Do we want police doing that work? Do we want
the nurses doing the admin work? I mean, this is
the situation that we're in. This is what we're trying
to address, and successive governments have been ignoring it. They've
(04:51):
been throwing up their hands in the air and saying
we've done nothing and now we're all out of ideas.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
David. With the redundancy change that you spoke about a moment,
are you concerned that what that may ultimately mean is
that you know that the government can can make people
redundant and sort of not have to answer questions to
that that people can be moved on or what's the
worry with that redundancy change?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Right now, we have strong provisions in the Enterprise Agreement
that gives public servants extra protections around redundancy. Basically, you
have the same redundancy protections that most Australians have, and
then they have an extra protection that says we will
put you on a register that allows you to continue
(05:37):
working in the public service because again there's always work
to do and most government departments are running on a
rag with fumes at the moment. We will allow you
to continue to work and both you can seek other
employment and will continue to try and find you other
employment in the NTPs YEP right, and they want to
remove that and that's a serious issue. So even at
(05:59):
the bargaining tape where OCPS said again the commissioner, just
like the government, repeating the same phrases over and over again,
that oh, no, we're committed to maintaining jobs and everything else.
And we asked the questions a very simple question, does
this make it easier to cut jobs? The answer was yes.
They couldn't answer any other way. But it's really hard
(06:19):
not to draw the lines between the dots here, and
we're trying to protect the public servers in the event
that this happens, because we can't afford to lose any
more public servants than we are at the moment now.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
In terms of this now going to Fair Work, are
you worried that fair Work could review this and the
offer may end up worse than the one that's on
the table right now.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
No, So, just by way of background, came the vote
was called on Wednesday morning. The government chucked the tantrum
and sent out a media release before it contacted any
of the unions to say we're going to a fair
work We received an application under Section two forty of
(07:04):
the Fair Work Act late Friday evening outlining all of
their concerns at the bart with with bargaining negotiations. But
what they've applied for under this provision of the Fair
Work app is available to anybody at the table at
any time. It's to seek the assistance of the Fair
Work Commission in the relation to any dispute that arises
(07:27):
between the parties. Now, the unions haven't done this because
in our expit, well, firstly because we didn't want to
delay it because people, just like the government, we wanted
an outcome.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
But I seem to have lost you there, David. Are
you able to hear me? You just cut out for a.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Mind, I can hear you. I was just going to
say that this process doesn't actually allow the Fair Work
Commission to make any determination. It's solely there to assist
the parties in reaching an outcome. So there's no enforcement
behind this. This is the government has just come out
(08:05):
to make another announceable to say we're going hard on
the unions because that's that's you know, potentially that's what
their base wants. I don't know, but from an industrial perspective,
the unions haven't done this because in our experience, if
we had applied for something like this, after the first vote,
when the nominal expiry date for the enterprise agreement was
(08:26):
a month and a half ago, their Work Commission would
look at us and say, get real, go back to
the bargaining table.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah. Right, So from your perspective now at this point
in time, you know where to from here? Do you
feel as are you're going to be able to get
back to the bargaining table? And if the government were
to come back and go, all right, it's remaining at
three percent, but we're going to make the changes or
we're not going to, you know, to enforce these changes
around redundancy. Would the union and would members be more
(08:55):
open do you think to this deal?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, Katie, they've kind of show themselves in the food
because we've all been working under the same wages policy.
So who's we The CPSU, the Police Union. You've had
Nathanson on the show a number of times as well,
and I've spoken to nathansin about it, and they did
exactly the same thing to the police union. The Police
Union voted down their enterprise agreement three times, and Joe
(09:19):
Hursey said the same thing, We're going to reduce the
actual payoffer. We're going to take you to the police
version of the Fair Work Commission right, and then offered
them a pay increase well above the wages policy without
having to provide a single efficiency. Now, how can any
public servant across the NTPs look at that and say?
(09:40):
How is that fair? How is that there? When you
have youth justice officers on the frontline? How is that there?
When you have cheap correctional officers on the frontline? How
is that feel when you have people in emergency department?
How is that there? For any of these people across
the NTPs. And we talk about the border public and
the implications for them, the border public is the public
service we're in the where you know, one in six
(10:03):
workers come under this agreement alone, let alone all the
other enterprise agreements and all the other workplaces that are
affected by this. So what we need is genuine negotiation.
What we need is just to go back to the
table and to actually try and address in outcome, because
so far all we got is the six months us
raising every single point and going through all the outcomes
and the reasons why we need these things and why
(10:24):
it's important. They said, yeah, we'll get back to you.
We'll get back to you and then we get an
offer at the end and says we're disregarding all of it.
Take it or leave it, go to the vote, chuck
a tantrum, go to fair Work. That's not okay. They
just want to get back to the bargaining table and
negotiate properly.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Do you think that's a possibility now or do you
think that the minister's really, you know, throwing that possibility
out by going to the Fair Work Commission or are
you confident you're going to be able to get back to.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
The table the unions. I'm speaking on the arf of
CPSU here, but you know I'm close contact with all
the other unions at the table as well. We are
more than capable, more than willing to go back to
the table because it's the right thing to do. If
we need to go down the fairwork path, then we do.
But that's the key thing here today. We just need
(11:09):
to get back to the table and negotiate.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
David to anybody listening this morning, and I said this
to the Police Union as well, to Nathan Finn to
anybody listening this morning, that's thinking. You know, come on, guys,
three percent year on year, you're being greedy. What do
you say to them?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I say to them that there is no greater investment
than investing in the public service. And it's in everyone's
interest at the public service prospers. It's in their interest
in terms of the services, it's in their interest in
terms of the paying conditions. We're at the front line
(11:48):
here to ensure that the government does the right thing
by its workforce, but also the right thing by the community,
the business community. We're jumping up and down before the
election saying please, please please keep public servants in the NT.
We need them here. We need their capacity, we need
their money in the community. We need all these people
(12:09):
in the community because at the end of the day,
they're the ones in the Northern Territory working in the
Northern Territory, providing money in the Northern Territory and allowing
everybody else to prostitute. And we could be in an
even better place if more people had better conditions through
the public service.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
David, in terms of a figure, you know, a percentage,
because like I said, obviously three percent each year is
what's been put on the table. What would you like
to see? What do you think, spear.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well, Katie, Our members claim it's a nuanced claim, and
I'm not going to go through the whole thing because
it's boring. But the claim is that it should be
around five percent. Okay, now you can say that's too much.
I can already hear all the reasons why people would
raise their concerns. I can hear it already in my head. Okay,
I get that right. But we have to factor in
(12:59):
that we are not competitive anymore. And we also have
to factor in that the government itself, they have been
quoted at nauseum for years during the way trees, the
same government who's now coming out saying why weren't you
fighting against your labor mates? Who attended our rallies. Yeah,
Lias Binocchiaro, all of them attended our rallies and said
(13:20):
what the government was doing with shameless and that they
would bargain with us in good faith, telling us that
we can't get anything more than what they're putting on
the table, and then selecting one group of workers and saying,
actually you can, but stuck the rest of you is
not bargaining in good faith.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Well, David Valagas, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Please keep us up to date with how things progress.
I'll be interested to know whether they do come back
to the table and where you know, where we go
from here. Just really quickly though, if you can just
let us know. I mean, when you look at the
pay rates that we have here in the Northern Territory
right now comparatively to other states, how big an impact
(14:00):
is this having on us trying to fill some of
these different jobs. I mean, we last week spoke to
the Allied Health Union and talked a little bit more
about the impact when it comes to some of those
other jobs within our health system. How big an impact
would you say this is having at the moment.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Massive, absolutely massive, And there's no part of the Northern
Territory public service that isn't touched by this issue. With
the vacancy rates across the board, we have people doing
the jobs of three or four workers in any given
workplace because it's so difficult to have people stay in
the Northern Territory, they'll recruit a whole room of new
(14:41):
people and they'll be gone within three months. This is
the issue. We need to do more, and we need
to do better to stop to try and at least
stem it, at least stop it from happening.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
David, thank you so much for your time this morning.
Really appreciate you having a chat with us.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Thanks Katie, thank you.
Now we know. The Northern Territory government say it will
refer these stalled public service wage negotiations to the Fair
Work Commission after workers voted down the latest payoffer. The
proposed Northern Territory Public Service Enterprise Agreement would have delivered
our three percent annual pay rise over four years, compounding
to more than twelve percent, but the unions and the
(00:22):
workers rejected the deal, citing cost of living concerns and
a lack of trust in government priorities. Now the government
say they're disappointed, arguing the offer provides real wage growth
above Darwin CPI, which currently sits at one point six percent,
with the Minister Joe Hersey saying public sector wages already
(00:43):
account for forty one percent of the budget and blamed
labor for leaving the territory's finances in poor shape. Now
the matter is now going to go before Fair Work.
And joining us on the line is David Vilagus, the
Regional Secretary of the CPSU. Good morning to you, David,
(01:03):
Good morning Katie, Thanks so much for your time. Now, David,
what was the main reason that the public sector workers
voted against the three percent annual pay rise offer?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well? O Katie, it's there's a lot of focus on
just the pay, but it's much bigger than that. You know,
we're talking about a number of really important conditions that
are being removed from the Enterprise Agreement, and for a
lot of our members, what the government is offering in
terms of pay just doesn't justify voting yes, right, But
(01:37):
in terms of the pay itself, I mean, look, we've
our members, as you know, they've been subjected to wage
freezers during periods where CPI was going through the roof.
We also know that it's just as a result of
those wage freezers, the NTPs is no longer competitive with
other jurisdictions. People are leaving in droves, and what we
(02:00):
also need to do, and this is one of those
key issues that all the unions agree on, and we
don't know whys agree on everything, ye, but if there's
one thing that all the unions are on the same
side about is that the attraction and retention issue in
the NTPs is really serious and needs to be addressed.
So what's currently on offer just isn't good enough.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So what are some of the conditions that you mentioned
just a moment ago, Because I know for a lot
of people listening if they're not a public you know,
if they're not a public service worker, they might be
listening thinking, come on, guys, you've been offered three percent
over the next few years. You know what conditions could
possibly be getting taken away from you that that's not
(02:42):
good enough.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Well, o, Katie, we've got really important redundancy protections in
the Enterprise Agreement. They're looking at scrapping that. The only reason,
the only justification they've provided for removing those important protections
is while it wasn't the years ago, So why do
we need it now? Right We've had a government that's
(03:04):
said until their base is blue that they're not going
to cut public service jobs. But then why remove important
redundancy protections? Why are you giving the Commissioner for Public
Employment more powers over their industrial entitlements? Right? But Katie,
the really serious issue is that we cannot afford to
(03:25):
continue down the path that we are on, and successive
governments aren't putting the emphasis on how important it is
to keep public servants in the Northern Territory because right
now we're constantly chasing our tails. Right now, we're doing
our best to get as many people as possible to
try and apply and they leave as soon as they
can because it's just not competitive. And the nt is
a very very complex jurisdiction. It's unlike any other jurisdiction
(03:49):
in the country, and you need to make it worthwhile
to people who are listening who aren't public servants. Every
single person in the Northern Territory has a vested interest
in the Northern Territory Public Service working and flourishing. Right,
Even the paying conditions for the NTPs set the standard
(04:09):
for everybody else, And all the unions will tell you
as soon as they're going to negotiations after the NTPs
has been settled, they'll go into an employment situation and
they'll say, well, we're only going to offer this because
the public service got this as well. Right, So every
single person, even their paying conditions, relies on the public service,
And of course every single person relies on the services.
(04:30):
How often aren't people I listen to your show, people
talking about, you know, the amount of time they have
to wait at the hospital, the amount of time it
takes to get a phone call answered by the police.
Do we want police doing that work? Do we want
the nurses doing the admin work? I mean, this is
the situation that we're in. This is what we're trying
to address, and successive governments have been ignoring it. They've
(04:51):
been throwing up their hands in the air and saying
we've done nothing and now we're all out of ideas.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
David. With the redundancy change that you spoke about a moment,
are you concerned that what that may ultimately mean is
that you know that the government can can make people
redundant and sort of not have to answer questions to
that that people can be moved on or what's the
worry with that redundancy change?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Right now, we have strong provisions in the Enterprise Agreement
that gives public servants extra protections around redundancy. Basically, you
have the same redundancy protections that most Australians have, and
then they have an extra protection that says we will
put you on a register that allows you to continue
(05:37):
working in the public service because again there's always work
to do and most government departments are running on a
rag with fumes at the moment. We will allow you
to continue to work and both you can seek other
employment and will continue to try and find you other
employment in the NTPs YEP right, and they want to
remove that and that's a serious issue. So even at
(05:59):
the bargaining tape where OCPS said again the commissioner, just
like the government, repeating the same phrases over and over again,
that oh, no, we're committed to maintaining jobs and everything else.
And we asked the questions a very simple question, does
this make it easier to cut jobs? The answer was yes.
They couldn't answer any other way. But it's really hard
(06:19):
not to draw the lines between the dots here, and
we're trying to protect the public servers in the event
that this happens, because we can't afford to lose any
more public servants than we are at the moment now.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
In terms of this now going to Fair Work, are
you worried that fair Work could review this and the
offer may end up worse than the one that's on
the table right now.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
No, So, just by way of background, came the vote
was called on Wednesday morning. The government chucked the tantrum
and sent out a media release before it contacted any
of the unions to say we're going to a fair
work We received an application under Section two forty of
(07:04):
the Fair Work Act late Friday evening outlining all of
their concerns at the bart with with bargaining negotiations. But
what they've applied for under this provision of the Fair
Work app is available to anybody at the table at
any time. It's to seek the assistance of the Fair
Work Commission in the relation to any dispute that arises
(07:27):
between the parties. Now, the unions haven't done this because
in our expit, well, firstly because we didn't want to
delay it because people, just like the government, we wanted
an outcome.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
But I seem to have lost you there, David. Are
you able to hear me? You just cut out for a.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Mind, I can hear you. I was just going to
say that this process doesn't actually allow the Fair Work
Commission to make any determination. It's solely there to assist
the parties in reaching an outcome. So there's no enforcement
behind this. This is the government has just come out
(08:05):
to make another announceable to say we're going hard on
the unions because that's that's you know, potentially that's what
their base wants. I don't know, but from an industrial perspective,
the unions haven't done this because in our experience, if
we had applied for something like this, after the first vote,
when the nominal expiry date for the enterprise agreement was
(08:26):
a month and a half ago, their Work Commission would
look at us and say, get real, go back to
the bargaining table.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah. Right, So from your perspective now at this point
in time, you know where to from here? Do you
feel as are you're going to be able to get
back to the bargaining table? And if the government were
to come back and go, all right, it's remaining at
three percent, but we're going to make the changes or
we're not going to, you know, to enforce these changes
around redundancy. Would the union and would members be more
(08:55):
open do you think to this deal?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, Katie, they've kind of show themselves in the food
because we've all been working under the same wages policy.
So who's we The CPSU, the Police Union. You've had
Nathanson on the show a number of times as well,
and I've spoken to nathansin about it, and they did
exactly the same thing to the police union. The Police
Union voted down their enterprise agreement three times, and Joe
(09:19):
Hursey said the same thing, We're going to reduce the
actual payoffer. We're going to take you to the police
version of the Fair Work Commission right, and then offered
them a pay increase well above the wages policy without
having to provide a single efficiency. Now, how can any
public servant across the NTPs look at that and say?
(09:40):
How is that fair? How is that there? When you
have youth justice officers on the frontline? How is that there?
When you have cheap correctional officers on the frontline? How
is that feel when you have people in emergency department?
How is that there? For any of these people across
the NTPs. And we talk about the border public and
the implications for them, the border public is the public
service we're in the where you know, one in six
(10:03):
workers come under this agreement alone, let alone all the
other enterprise agreements and all the other workplaces that are
affected by this. So what we need is genuine negotiation.
What we need is just to go back to the
table and to actually try and address in outcome, because
so far all we got is the six months us
raising every single point and going through all the outcomes
and the reasons why we need these things and why
(10:24):
it's important. They said, yeah, we'll get back to you.
We'll get back to you and then we get an
offer at the end and says we're disregarding all of it.
Take it or leave it, go to the vote, chuck
a tantrum, go to fair Work. That's not okay. They
just want to get back to the bargaining table and
negotiate properly.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Do you think that's a possibility now or do you
think that the minister's really, you know, throwing that possibility
out by going to the Fair Work Commission or are
you confident you're going to be able to get back to.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
The table the unions. I'm speaking on the arf of
CPSU here, but you know I'm close contact with all
the other unions at the table as well. We are
more than capable, more than willing to go back to
the table because it's the right thing to do. If
we need to go down the fairwork path, then we do.
But that's the key thing here today. We just need
(11:09):
to get back to the table and negotiate.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
David to anybody listening this morning, and I said this
to the Police Union as well, to Nathan Finn to
anybody listening this morning, that's thinking. You know, come on, guys,
three percent year on year, you're being greedy. What do
you say to them?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I say to them that there is no greater investment
than investing in the public service. And it's in everyone's
interest at the public service prospers. It's in their interest
in terms of the services, it's in their interest in
terms of the paying conditions. We're at the front line
(11:48):
here to ensure that the government does the right thing
by its workforce, but also the right thing by the community,
the business community. We're jumping up and down before the
election saying please, please please keep public servants in the NT.
We need them here. We need their capacity, we need
their money in the community. We need all these people
(12:09):
in the community because at the end of the day,
they're the ones in the Northern Territory working in the
Northern Territory, providing money in the Northern Territory and allowing
everybody else to prostitute. And we could be in an
even better place if more people had better conditions through
the public service.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
David, in terms of a figure, you know, a percentage,
because like I said, obviously three percent each year is
what's been put on the table. What would you like
to see? What do you think, spear.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well, Katie, Our members claim it's a nuanced claim, and
I'm not going to go through the whole thing because
it's boring. But the claim is that it should be
around five percent. Okay, now you can say that's too much.
I can already hear all the reasons why people would
raise their concerns. I can hear it already in my head. Okay,
I get that right. But we have to factor in
(12:59):
that we are not competitive anymore. And we also have
to factor in that the government itself, they have been
quoted at nauseum for years during the way trees, the
same government who's now coming out saying why weren't you
fighting against your labor mates? Who attended our rallies. Yeah,
Lias Binocchiaro, all of them attended our rallies and said
(13:20):
what the government was doing with shameless and that they
would bargain with us in good faith, telling us that
we can't get anything more than what they're putting on
the table, and then selecting one group of workers and saying,
actually you can, but stuck the rest of you is
not bargaining in good faith.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Well, David Valagas, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Please keep us up to date with how things progress.
I'll be interested to know whether they do come back
to the table and where you know, where we go
from here. Just really quickly though, if you can just
let us know. I mean, when you look at the
pay rates that we have here in the Northern Territory
right now comparatively to other states, how big an impact
(14:00):
is this having on us trying to fill some of
these different jobs. I mean, we last week spoke to
the Allied Health Union and talked a little bit more
about the impact when it comes to some of those
other jobs within our health system. How big an impact
would you say this is having at the moment.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Massive, absolutely massive, And there's no part of the Northern
Territory public service that isn't touched by this issue. With
the vacancy rates across the board, we have people doing
the jobs of three or four workers in any given
workplace because it's so difficult to have people stay in
the Northern Territory, they'll recruit a whole room of new
(14:41):
people and they'll be gone within three months. This is
the issue. We need to do more, and we need
to do better to stop to try and at least
stem it, at least stop it from happening.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
David, thank you so much for your time this morning.
Really appreciate you having a chat with us.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Thanks Katie, thank you.
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