Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As I mentioned, we know that plans to move school
counselors to a regional office have been met with backlash
from senior students as well as school counsels and a
number of parents joining me on the line to tell
us a little bit more about how exactly this is
going to work. Is The Education Department's Executive Director of
Inclusion and Engagement Services are Darren Chatterton.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Good morning Katie. Thank you for the opportunity to talk more.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Now tell me how is this new model going to work?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Thank you. So, first of all, I just want to
clarify that we absolutely have school counselors in our schools.
There's not a big move to move all of our
school counselors into the Mitchell Center or into our office.
But what we are focusing on is ensuring we have
strong teams in each of our regional locations so that
(00:56):
we can be supporting students and schools in the great
work that they do right across the Northern Territory.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So the school councilors aren't being moved out of Casuarina
Senior College or other schools.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So what we've currently got is we've got in our structure.
We've got thirty positions, thirty school councilor position right across
the Northern territory. We've currently got twenty one of those
filled and three will be starting by the end of May,
and we're continuing to recruit to fill those other vacancies all around.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
So where exactly are they going to be based?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Twenty one of those already filled, you're going to have
a three more on, so twenty four in total.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
So where exactly will they be based?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
So our current model is they're based in our middle
and senior schools and then we also have some offices
that are in our center. So two positions that look
at ensuring we've got the ability to respond to all schools,
so schools know that they can reach out to us
if they don't have a school counselor space, and they
(02:05):
can say, you know, this issues popped up, we need
some support, and we've got those qualified people manning the
phones and the emails, and just last week someone went
out within twenty minutes of a school contact in them
to say, you know, we need some additional support. So
we have those people on the ground wherever they're needed,
and we fly them across the territory if required.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
All right, So I just want to really get to
the heart of this. We've got school saying that they're
being moved out of those various different locations, So out
of those schools and into a centralized model. Are you
telling me that they're not going into that centralized model.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
We currently are not removing counselors from our schools to
work in the center. We do have a centralized model
around ensuring there's consistency in paperwork and information that's provided
so that we can look at what other support might
be required. But we are having conversations with our school principles.
(03:07):
In a fortnite we've got another check in reflecting on
you know, we're returning to this new process of referrals,
and also you know, we do have twenty one out
of thirty positions build, which has meant in some instances
we've had to look at some of the counselors that
may have been based in a school five days a
(03:28):
week for a few weeks, working across two schools, again
just to ensure that our middle and senior schools have
equity access.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So there's only three counselors out of thirty currently working
at the Mitchell Center.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
We have people rousted on. There's two a week.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay, just I'm really trying to work out exactly how
this is. You know, how this is going to work,
because obviously in Ti Conso was on the show yesterday
as we're the captains of one of those schools that
were incredibly concerned that the counselors are being moved out
of the school. But you're essentially saying to me this
morning that they're not being moved out of the school.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
No. Our structure, in our area, we have a large
focus on school facing support and provision, and so I understand.
I listened to the interview yesterday, and we also when
I saw the online petition from the students of Catherina
Senior College, I reached out to the school and said, look,
(04:34):
I'd love to come and meet with your src. Let's
have a conversation, let me respond to their concerns, but
also hear from them around what it means their lived
experience and reality in relation to the role. So that's
happening this week. We also are working with our Youth
Voice crew around our ongoing focus on mental health and
(04:55):
well being, and we look forward in a few weeks.
I've got some time with the cogso we really value
we acknowledge whenever we're looking at mental health and well being,
support for students, parent voice, and partnerships integral. So really
looking forward to clarifying.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
So is this a back flip, I mean, is this
a backflip from the department, because yesterday obviously we've seen
the Department of Education at issue to statement saying that
the move to regional teams will provide greater equity in
access to services and support, and that the model is
being introduced in well is consistent with what other states
(05:33):
and territories are doing, and that while some staff may
be based in regional offices, they're working hours, will be
physically in schools supporting students. But from what I can
read from that, they are going to be based in
those regional offices. But you're saying now that that's not
the case.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
So the statement there refers to those duty officer positions
that I just mentioned, So you know they are positions
based in the US, but all the others are out
in our schools, all right.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Can you just break it down for us, So how
many of them are out in the schools.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
So we have twenty one councilors across the Northern territory.
So for example, we currently have five in the Darwin
region and we're recruiting to the other four positions that
are vacant, and so they are based in our middle
and senior secondary schools and.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
They're going to stay in those schools.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, at this point in time, while we continue to
have conversations, we want to continue to strengthen, strengthen the
work that we're doing in this space.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Was the plan though to move them to that centralized office.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
The plan has always been around equity of service. You know,
we need to continue to think about how we're also
providing support for our primary schools. And so I know
that our counselors, you know, they tend to work in hubs,
our schools. They look at the primary schools that feed
into middle and senior secondary and I know that when required,
(07:13):
some of our middle and senior school counselors also partnering
and tap into their local primary school. But also that's
the role of those duty counselors that we have those
two positions.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So I'm just trying to make sense of this because obviously,
like I said, you've got a situation where clearly schools
and students were very concerned about the changes that were
coming into play. And from the sounds of what you're saying,
those school counselors are not moving out right now, but
(07:48):
there were discussions around around the plans in the future.
So is it a situation here where the department's backfliped.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
No, No, This whole thing was always about consultationation and conversations.
We've partnered with Deloitte and last term, I know there
was a series of consultations with our principles, getting feedback
on what service needs there are in this space, also
getting feedback about what's working well and where our challenges
(08:18):
are as we kind of seek to continue to improve.
But I just reiterate, you know, students will continue to
still see counselors in their schools. They'll still have access
to the important mental health support.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
The big concern from those students is that is that
they're worried that if you need that urgent counseling, that
there isn't going to be a school counselor on site
to be able to provide that service.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
What would you say to those students.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I'd like to reassure them that already there are instances where,
for example, a young person presents at their school and
maybe the school counsel is away for the day. And
I know our school staff do a great job, but
then what they do is they reach out to us,
and that strength of that model with having two people
available via email on the phone to talk through the
(09:13):
school team, and then to get people out to support
on the ground as required.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Now I've got a message here that had come through
from Scott and he said, Hi, Katie, my child has
mental health issues, suffers from depression and has been suicidal
for some time. I have them seeing professionals outside of school. However,
I believe having a school based counselor has been paramount
in saving my child's life.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
What would you.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Say to somebody like Scott who is a parent who's
obviously concerned about these changes or about what could change
in terms of they're being that counseling, they're available and
ready to students who need it.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, thank you, Katie. I think Scott Scott's story there
just highlights another important role that our counselors play. So
they are that one person and that important point of
call for our young people. But there's also work that
we do around ensuring that families, students, and our own
staff are aware of all of the other different providers
(10:19):
that can be in this space providing important wrap around support.
We know that our schools are places that people feel
comfortable and a place of belonging. We know our teachers
are so connected to our young people, and so it's
about us ensuring not just our counselors are there, but
also that we have really current information available to support
(10:41):
families as they navigate this space. It's actually a topic
of conversation I'm having with cogso in a few weeks
around what pieces of information can we be putting out
there to support families in this space. Counselor yes, one
on one support, but also sometimes it's a triage, it's
a referral to other services.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Well, it does sound as though they're just aren't enough
counselors to go around, So I'll get to that in
a second. But we're literally receiving messages right now saying
that those school councilors has already been moved.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
They haven't been moved permanently. There are people that have
changed their change maybe their school, Like I know one
school that were used to having a counselor for five
days a week. They currently have to have that person
for maybe three days a week and then two the
next week, as we maximize our resources across our schools
(11:38):
while we undergo the recruitment. Just last week, I checked
in with a counselor who have started up in Central
Region and she's working between Centralian Middle School and Centralian
Senior School.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So they are rotating between school. Look, honestly, I'm feeling
really confused, and I understan and appreciate the fact that
you've rocked up on the show to answer questions for us,
but I feel as though there's bits of the puzzle
that are missing here. So they have been moved out
of some of those schools. They're obviously rotating, and it
(12:14):
sounds as so it's because we don't.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Have enough of them.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Because we're undergoing recruitment to the positions that we do have.
We've actually grown the number of councilors in our structure
by five compared to last year, and when we looked
at the number of counselors based in each region, we
did use student student numbers. For example, so if you
(12:40):
were when I shared the data before. Darwin Region, for example,
we have nine counselors based in the Darwin Region, based
in schools in the Darwin Region, and Darwin Region have
our largest number of students in the government school Look.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Fundamentally, what every what every student, what everybody wants out
of this whole situation is that kids that need it
are able to see a school counselor. I mean to
those that are listening this morning, to those students that
we spoke to yesterday who are incredibly concerned, to NT
(13:18):
Cogso who are obviously incredibly concerned, to parents like Scott
who have emailed through here is one of many that
is incredibly concerned that this model that is being flagged,
whether it's happening now or whether it's down the track,
they're very worried that kids are going to fall through
the cracks. What is your message to those people?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
My message to those people is we know how critical
our school counselors are and the essential support service that
they provide to our students in our schools, and we
want to ensure that that support is equitable and available
to all schools. And we you know, are looking forward
to seeing the outcome of the work that we are
(14:03):
doing now to grow our workforce and to fill those
vacancy so that we continue to build and support our
schools in responding to the needs of young people.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
And is there going to be further consultation from this point.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, absolutely, so we've already got consultation scheduled so the
Youth Voice crew this week, which was pre planned because
they identified this as one of their priority pieces of work.
I'll be out at Casarina Senior College and you know,
meeting with all principals next week and extend to them
(14:39):
we're happy to be in all of their schools having
the conversations with young people. And then we're with COGSO
again in a few weeks, and we have regular quarterly
meetings with an All the Territory Principles Association as well,
so continuing to test our thinking and talking to them.
You know, they play an important role of ensuring that
(14:59):
we are talking to a diverse representation of our principles
and our schools right across the Northern Territory. So we
will continue to have conversations.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Darren, Just finally, is this model is, you know, is
what we're moving towards? Is it something that the Minister
for Education is supportive of.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Well. I know our Minister for Education is very supportive
of us doing whatever it takes to support all young
people to access quality education. She is aware of the
work we've done to ensure we have strong regional presence
in our in each of our regions, no resources, closest
positions to the young people that they support, and so
(15:43):
we'll continue to have conversations with our minister as we
you know, feedback as we're doing all these consultations on
the ground of what we are hearing.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Well Education Department Executive Director of Inclusion and Engagement Services
are Darren. I really appreciate your time this morning. I
appreciate the fact that you fronted up and had a
discussion with us about this situation.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Thank you, Katie. Thank you for your time and the
opportunity to talk in greater detail.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Thank you,
As I mentioned, we know that plans to move school
counselors to a regional office have been met with backlash
from senior students as well as school counsels and a
number of parents joining me on the line to tell
us a little bit more about how exactly this is
going to work. Is The Education Department's Executive Director of
Inclusion and Engagement Services are Darren Chatterton.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Good morning Katie. Thank you for the opportunity to talk more.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Now tell me how is this new model going to work?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Thank you. So, first of all, I just want to
clarify that we absolutely have school counselors in our schools.
There's not a big move to move all of our
school counselors into the Mitchell Center or into our office.
But what we are focusing on is ensuring we have
strong teams in each of our regional locations so that
(00:56):
we can be supporting students and schools in the great
work that they do right across the Northern Territory.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So the school councilors aren't being moved out of Casuarina
Senior College or other schools.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So what we've currently got is we've got in our structure.
We've got thirty positions, thirty school councilor position right across
the Northern territory. We've currently got twenty one of those
filled and three will be starting by the end of May,
and we're continuing to recruit to fill those other vacancies all around.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
So where exactly are they going to be based?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Twenty one of those already filled, you're going to have
a three more on, so twenty four in total.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
So where exactly will they be based?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
So our current model is they're based in our middle
and senior schools and then we also have some offices
that are in our center. So two positions that look
at ensuring we've got the ability to respond to all schools,
so schools know that they can reach out to us
if they don't have a school counselor space, and they
(02:05):
can say, you know, this issues popped up, we need
some support, and we've got those qualified people manning the
phones and the emails, and just last week someone went
out within twenty minutes of a school contact in them
to say, you know, we need some additional support. So
we have those people on the ground wherever they're needed,
and we fly them across the territory if required.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
All right, So I just want to really get to
the heart of this. We've got school saying that they're
being moved out of those various different locations, So out
of those schools and into a centralized model. Are you
telling me that they're not going into that centralized model.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
We currently are not removing counselors from our schools to
work in the center. We do have a centralized model
around ensuring there's consistency in paperwork and information that's provided
so that we can look at what other support might
be required. But we are having conversations with our school principles.
(03:07):
In a fortnite we've got another check in reflecting on
you know, we're returning to this new process of referrals,
and also you know, we do have twenty one out
of thirty positions build, which has meant in some instances
we've had to look at some of the counselors that
may have been based in a school five days a
(03:28):
week for a few weeks, working across two schools, again
just to ensure that our middle and senior schools have
equity access.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So there's only three counselors out of thirty currently working
at the Mitchell Center.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
We have people rousted on. There's two a week.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay, just I'm really trying to work out exactly how
this is. You know, how this is going to work,
because obviously in Ti Conso was on the show yesterday
as we're the captains of one of those schools that
were incredibly concerned that the counselors are being moved out
of the school. But you're essentially saying to me this
morning that they're not being moved out of the school.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
No. Our structure, in our area, we have a large
focus on school facing support and provision, and so I understand.
I listened to the interview yesterday, and we also when
I saw the online petition from the students of Catherina
Senior College, I reached out to the school and said, look,
(04:34):
I'd love to come and meet with your src. Let's
have a conversation, let me respond to their concerns, but
also hear from them around what it means their lived
experience and reality in relation to the role. So that's
happening this week. We also are working with our Youth
Voice crew around our ongoing focus on mental health and
(04:55):
well being, and we look forward in a few weeks.
I've got some time with the cogso we really value
we acknowledge whenever we're looking at mental health and well being,
support for students, parent voice, and partnerships integral. So really
looking forward to clarifying.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
So is this a back flip, I mean, is this
a backflip from the department, because yesterday obviously we've seen
the Department of Education at issue to statement saying that
the move to regional teams will provide greater equity in
access to services and support, and that the model is
being introduced in well is consistent with what other states
(05:33):
and territories are doing, and that while some staff may
be based in regional offices, they're working hours, will be
physically in schools supporting students. But from what I can
read from that, they are going to be based in
those regional offices. But you're saying now that that's not
the case.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
So the statement there refers to those duty officer positions
that I just mentioned, So you know they are positions
based in the US, but all the others are out
in our schools, all right.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Can you just break it down for us, So how
many of them are out in the schools.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
So we have twenty one councilors across the Northern territory.
So for example, we currently have five in the Darwin
region and we're recruiting to the other four positions that
are vacant, and so they are based in our middle
and senior secondary schools and.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
They're going to stay in those schools.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, at this point in time, while we continue to
have conversations, we want to continue to strengthen, strengthen the
work that we're doing in this space.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Was the plan though to move them to that centralized office.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
The plan has always been around equity of service. You know,
we need to continue to think about how we're also
providing support for our primary schools. And so I know
that our counselors, you know, they tend to work in hubs,
our schools. They look at the primary schools that feed
into middle and senior secondary and I know that when required,
(07:13):
some of our middle and senior school counselors also partnering
and tap into their local primary school. But also that's
the role of those duty counselors that we have those
two positions.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So I'm just trying to make sense of this because obviously,
like I said, you've got a situation where clearly schools
and students were very concerned about the changes that were
coming into play. And from the sounds of what you're saying,
those school counselors are not moving out right now, but
(07:48):
there were discussions around around the plans in the future.
So is it a situation here where the department's backfliped.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
No, No, This whole thing was always about consultationation and conversations.
We've partnered with Deloitte and last term, I know there
was a series of consultations with our principles, getting feedback
on what service needs there are in this space, also
getting feedback about what's working well and where our challenges
(08:18):
are as we kind of seek to continue to improve.
But I just reiterate, you know, students will continue to
still see counselors in their schools. They'll still have access
to the important mental health support.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
The big concern from those students is that is that
they're worried that if you need that urgent counseling, that
there isn't going to be a school counselor on site
to be able to provide that service.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
What would you say to those students.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I'd like to reassure them that already there are instances where,
for example, a young person presents at their school and
maybe the school counsel is away for the day. And
I know our school staff do a great job, but
then what they do is they reach out to us,
and that strength of that model with having two people
available via email on the phone to talk through the
(09:13):
school team, and then to get people out to support
on the ground as required.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Now I've got a message here that had come through
from Scott and he said, Hi, Katie, my child has
mental health issues, suffers from depression and has been suicidal
for some time. I have them seeing professionals outside of school. However,
I believe having a school based counselor has been paramount
in saving my child's life.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
What would you.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Say to somebody like Scott who is a parent who's
obviously concerned about these changes or about what could change
in terms of they're being that counseling, they're available and
ready to students who need it.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, thank you, Katie. I think Scott Scott's story there
just highlights another important role that our counselors play. So
they are that one person and that important point of
call for our young people. But there's also work that
we do around ensuring that families, students, and our own
staff are aware of all of the other different providers
(10:19):
that can be in this space providing important wrap around support.
We know that our schools are places that people feel
comfortable and a place of belonging. We know our teachers
are so connected to our young people, and so it's
about us ensuring not just our counselors are there, but
also that we have really current information available to support
(10:41):
families as they navigate this space. It's actually a topic
of conversation I'm having with cogso in a few weeks
around what pieces of information can we be putting out
there to support families in this space. Counselor yes, one
on one support, but also sometimes it's a triage, it's
a referral to other services.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Well, it does sound as though they're just aren't enough
counselors to go around, So I'll get to that in
a second. But we're literally receiving messages right now saying
that those school councilors has already been moved.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
They haven't been moved permanently. There are people that have
changed their change maybe their school, Like I know one
school that were used to having a counselor for five
days a week. They currently have to have that person
for maybe three days a week and then two the
next week, as we maximize our resources across our schools
(11:38):
while we undergo the recruitment. Just last week, I checked
in with a counselor who have started up in Central
Region and she's working between Centralian Middle School and Centralian
Senior School.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So they are rotating between school. Look, honestly, I'm feeling
really confused, and I understan and appreciate the fact that
you've rocked up on the show to answer questions for us,
but I feel as though there's bits of the puzzle
that are missing here. So they have been moved out
of some of those schools. They're obviously rotating, and it
(12:14):
sounds as so it's because we don't.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Have enough of them.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Because we're undergoing recruitment to the positions that we do have.
We've actually grown the number of councilors in our structure
by five compared to last year, and when we looked
at the number of counselors based in each region, we
did use student student numbers. For example, so if you
(12:40):
were when I shared the data before. Darwin Region, for example,
we have nine counselors based in the Darwin Region, based
in schools in the Darwin Region, and Darwin Region have
our largest number of students in the government school Look.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Fundamentally, what every what every student, what everybody wants out
of this whole situation is that kids that need it
are able to see a school counselor. I mean to
those that are listening this morning, to those students that
we spoke to yesterday who are incredibly concerned, to NT
(13:18):
Cogso who are obviously incredibly concerned, to parents like Scott
who have emailed through here is one of many that
is incredibly concerned that this model that is being flagged,
whether it's happening now or whether it's down the track,
they're very worried that kids are going to fall through
the cracks. What is your message to those people?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
My message to those people is we know how critical
our school counselors are and the essential support service that
they provide to our students in our schools, and we
want to ensure that that support is equitable and available
to all schools. And we you know, are looking forward
to seeing the outcome of the work that we are
(14:03):
doing now to grow our workforce and to fill those
vacancy so that we continue to build and support our
schools in responding to the needs of young people.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
And is there going to be further consultation from this point.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, absolutely, so we've already got consultation scheduled so the
Youth Voice crew this week, which was pre planned because
they identified this as one of their priority pieces of work.
I'll be out at Casarina Senior College and you know,
meeting with all principals next week and extend to them
(14:39):
we're happy to be in all of their schools having
the conversations with young people. And then we're with COGSO
again in a few weeks, and we have regular quarterly
meetings with an All the Territory Principles Association as well,
so continuing to test our thinking and talking to them.
You know, they play an important role of ensuring that
(14:59):
we are talking to a diverse representation of our principles
and our schools right across the Northern Territory. So we
will continue to have conversations.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Darren, Just finally, is this model is, you know, is
what we're moving towards? Is it something that the Minister
for Education is supportive of.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Well. I know our Minister for Education is very supportive
of us doing whatever it takes to support all young
people to access quality education. She is aware of the
work we've done to ensure we have strong regional presence
in our in each of our regions, no resources, closest
positions to the young people that they support, and so
(15:43):
we'll continue to have conversations with our minister as we
you know, feedback as we're doing all these consultations on
the ground of what we are hearing.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Well Education Department Executive Director of Inclusion and Engagement Services
are Darren. I really appreciate your time this morning. I
appreciate the fact that you fronted up and had a
discussion with us about this situation.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Thank you, Katie. Thank you for your time and the
opportunity to talk in greater detail.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Thank you,
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