Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now much has been said in the last Fortnight about
(00:02):
the Eykak report into the so called Jobs for Mate scandal.
The anonymised report found a senior public servant had committed
unsatisfactory conduct in the management of their conflicts of interest
after failing to disclose the context or the full extent
of their friendship with a candidate, despite remaining on the
recruitment panel and providing them with a reference. Now days later,
(00:27):
the Police Commissioner Michael Murphy outed himself as the person
at the center of that report. The Chief Minister yesterday
announcing Michael Murphy's appointment as Commissioner has been terminated. Since then,
there's been many comparisons drawn between this situation and the
failed court prosecution of former Children's Commissioner Colaine Gwynn. Gwinn
(00:51):
was cleared of a charge of abuse or of office
almost two years ago after prosecutors could not produce enough
ever to continue her trial. She'd been accused of attempting
to hire a friend who had previously acted in that
role as the Assistant Children's Commissioner. From the start, she
(01:11):
declared that conflict. Colin Gwynn joins me on the line.
Good Morning Colleen, Hey, how are you, Katie? Yeah, really good.
Thanks so much for joining us on the show. Now, Colleen,
what do you make of the situation regarding Michael Murphy
when you compare it to your own? Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Look, I think it's been pretty much front page since
it's happened, and there has been a lot of comparisons,
comparisons made with my matter for obvious reasons. Now, I
was put through three and a half years a hell
for recruiting someone I absolutely knew and who was a
friend of mine. And the difference between my matter is
(01:54):
I brought that to the attention of everybody, including two
different ces at the time, the head of the HR
area HR lawyer. Everyone, everyone knew that I knew this person.
I had worked with him in police previously. In fact,
I knew everyone in my office. I had two ex
(02:16):
police in there. And so I went about a process
where I removed myself from the interview panel because I
knew two people on the panel who were being interviewed,
and everything I did was so overt. I went through steps.
In fact, I probably was too concerned about it, and
(02:37):
then I would be accused, put before a criminal court,
taken a trial for this matter. Have a look at
Michael Murphy where he's putting himself on a panel, he's
providing references, he's not disclosing any of this, and there
you can see there's a pattern where people are getting
(02:59):
promoted and perhaps not going through all the steps. Then
to sit back and allow this to play out in
the media until the public pressure was so much that
he had to put his hand on his heart and say, oh,
that was me, Sorry, I got it wrong. Compared to
what I went through, this is just simply unfair and
(03:24):
completely ridiculous. I was happy to be quiet, move on
with my life and put back and put this down
as a pretty dark time in my life. But I
have to speak up. This is just not acceptable when
you have the commissioner directly involved in my matter, It's
(03:45):
just completely unacceptable.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
What was it like for you that day when you
had the police turn up to your house and you
realize that this covert operation had been going on for months?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Well, Katie that we didn't realize that until my legal
team and I started going through the documents, that I
was under surveillance for months. You know, they were watching
me in my office, they were listening to things I
was saying, they had my phones off for about a year,
and the level of investigation and the techniques they used
(04:26):
normally attributed to or given to an investigation for something
serious such as a murder or a serious druggle importation.
It was just unbelievable the length and the costs they
went to for an accusation, which is really a hr matter,
(04:49):
not a criminal matter.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Colleen, Look, I can't even begin to imagine the toll
that it must have had on you personally, mentally, financially,
your career, your family. I mean, you've had to totally
uproot your life. Is it still raw five years on?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Look, it's been difficult. You know, my family and I
have been through. You know, I can't explain how difficult
it's been on so many levels. And I feel like
I've missed a couple of years with my children. I
just wasn't there, I wasn't capable. I went into a
(05:32):
pretty dark, dark place. There was times I didn't think
I would survive. And looking back now, it's hard to
put myself back in the shoes that I was wearing
them and understand how painful that was. When you were
accused of something that you know you didn't do it
(05:54):
is to not have a voice in that, and I
still this is the first time I've had a voice
in any of this. It is debilitating. There's no there's
no day that goes past that some memory of it
or doesn't appear, and I don't feel some still some
(06:15):
element of anxiety, sadness and frustration in relation to everything
that happened.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
How much has been a mum and having the love
from your children helped you through those dark days?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Oh, Katie, it's I sometimes wonder if I would be
here if it wasn't for my children, you know, And
they're very protective of me now, you know. They they
to have these little people that really didn't know what
was going on, but they sense something wasn't right. You know,
when when your mum's personality and that it completely changes
(06:50):
and they see that you're you're entirely sad and that
they know something pretty significant was going on. And so
trying to manage my children and manage the situation was
probably the most challenging thing I've ever done. And those
(07:10):
kids have been my shavior and still today, you know,
they've got that protection around me that will probably be
there forever.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Now I reckon it will be. Colleen, the Chief Minister
joins me on the show on Monday, and she said
that she's not ruled out an inquiry into your matter.
Is that something that you'd like to have happen, Katie?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Such a really good question. Look, I'm in the territory.
We call for inquiries on this, inquiries on that. There's
so many things, but you know what, we're just not
good at doing it. I don't have faith and anyone
could look into my matter and understand what occurred that
we're just not good at this. I think there is
enough known by government now, not only in relation to
(07:59):
my matter, but in relation to the Michael Murphy matter
to say, okay, we need to take some action. My
biggest thing here is I would love them to apologize
and say, hey, sorry, Colin, we got this wrong. We
simply got this wrong because they did. And I don't
think you need an expensive inquiry, which territories then have
(08:24):
to pay for, to be able to say, hey, we're
stuffed up here and we're sorry for what we put
you through. And I don't think you need an expensive
inquiry to understand that Michael Murphy's also made some mistakes.
I think what the territory needs to do is get
back on to the business of fixing the mistakes of
(08:46):
the past. And if you look at the Northern Territory
Police Force, it was a uniform I was proud to wear,
not so much the new color, but certainly the khaki
color I loved. I loved wearing the khaki color. The
respect of the community, and we were known as a
resilient and adaptable police force that we worked in pretty
(09:08):
harsh conditions. We did things that no other police force
would ever think are doing, and it was a great organization.
I really feel for the people in the police up there.
Many of my good friends are still cops in the
territory and they are great people. We still have a
great police force. But let's stop reviewing everything and let's
(09:29):
just fix it.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I mean, do you want the It sounds like what
you are after, though, is an apology. Is that something
that you are going to contact the Chief Minister about.
I mean, we're happy to ask her about it on
the show, but we're too from here with that.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Oh look, it's a really hard one. You know, you've
got a new Chief Minister. He's getting on with the
business of trying to fix the territory. There's massive issues
in the territory around crime, around the economy, around you know,
imagine being the chief minister of any jurisdiction. Of course,
(10:09):
you know. I would love to be able to sit
in a room with the chief and say, hey, this
is what's happened to me, this is what the consequences were.
I want you to make sure, while you're in power
that this doesn't happen to anyone else, because it shouldn't happen.
People should be protected for just doing their job. And
(10:31):
that's what I was doing. I was doing my job
and I had no protection, and it didn't matter who
I tried to get assistance from. Every door was closed.
We have to change that. We've got to understand that
these decisions and this approach has real implications for people.
We've got to have a government that's much more transparent,
(10:54):
much more accountability, and we've got to be decent to
each other. This is just the The territory is in
a really bad position, but it doesn't need to be.
Let's stop reviewing. Let's get on with the business of
getting the territory back to where it should be.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Colleen, in regard to your court trial, which was thrown
out due to a lack of evidence. There was the
revelation to come out of it with the racist remark
about the former acting Assistant Children's Commissioner, which police found
after trawling through months of secret recordings. Do you regret
making that comment? Oh?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Absolutely. I said that immediately upon my acquittal, that that
was disgraceful and if that's what they found after a
year of listening to me, then I probably I would
really challenge anyone who has their private conversations recorded for
(11:58):
a lengthy period that you would say things that you
wouldn't say in a public arena. By saying those comments
doesn't make me a racist. It means I said a
racist thing, and I said it under enormous pressure when
a lot of things were going on, and it is
not my best moment and it's something that I will
(12:21):
absolutely regret to the day I die.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Colleen, you've been a pioneer of women's football in the
Northern Territory. The ntfl's Women's Leagues Best and Fairest Award
named in your honor back in twenty sixteen, but your
name was later stripped from that medal. What kind of
impact did that have.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
That was I can't describe that impact was significant. To
be accused of being racist for making a comment. Was
that hurt? That hurt terribly a lot of my friends
in the territory of Indigenous people. I've coached indigenous football teams.
(13:05):
It was. It really hurt. And I think that the
I guess the strategy to try and bring me down
as a person was very much implemented once they realized
there was no criminality in anything that I did. It
was a pretty dirty game they played and it had
(13:27):
enormous impact on me on my reputation, you know. And
again that's something that I that I have to live
with now.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Colleen, if you could change something from your situation, what
would you like it to be?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Okay? I think what the territory has been missing is good, robust,
courageous leadership. Particularly in my matto. It was known by
the government of the day that there was no criminal
in my conduct, and that was known to the previous
Chief Minister and the Chief Ministers under the previous government,
(14:10):
but you know, they weren't willing to do anything about it.
What the territory needs is really strong leadership, stand up,
call out what's wrong and fix it. I've said it
in this interview. We've got to stop undertaking inquiries when
we already know there is an issue and we have
(14:32):
to take action and we've got to move forward. So
my message is make the decisions, the bold decisions, the
courageous decisions, and let's get back into the business of
improving the territory from the economy down to the crime.
Let's just get get on with get on with making
the territory great again.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Well, Colleen Gwin, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Thank you so much for joining us on the show.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Jeez, Katie, thank you, thank you.
Now much has been said in the last Fortnight about
(00:02):
the Eykak report into the so called Jobs for Mate scandal.
The anonymised report found a senior public servant had committed
unsatisfactory conduct in the management of their conflicts of interest
after failing to disclose the context or the full extent
of their friendship with a candidate, despite remaining on the
recruitment panel and providing them with a reference. Now days later,
(00:27):
the Police Commissioner Michael Murphy outed himself as the person
at the center of that report. The Chief Minister yesterday
announcing Michael Murphy's appointment as Commissioner has been terminated. Since then,
there's been many comparisons drawn between this situation and the
failed court prosecution of former Children's Commissioner Colaine Gwynn. Gwinn
(00:51):
was cleared of a charge of abuse or of office
almost two years ago after prosecutors could not produce enough
ever to continue her trial. She'd been accused of attempting
to hire a friend who had previously acted in that
role as the Assistant Children's Commissioner. From the start, she
(01:11):
declared that conflict. Colin Gwynn joins me on the line.
Good Morning Colleen, Hey, how are you, Katie? Yeah, really good.
Thanks so much for joining us on the show. Now, Colleen,
what do you make of the situation regarding Michael Murphy
when you compare it to your own? Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Look, I think it's been pretty much front page since
it's happened, and there has been a lot of comparisons,
comparisons made with my matter for obvious reasons. Now, I
was put through three and a half years a hell
for recruiting someone I absolutely knew and who was a
friend of mine. And the difference between my matter is
(01:54):
I brought that to the attention of everybody, including two
different ces at the time, the head of the HR
area HR lawyer. Everyone, everyone knew that I knew this person.
I had worked with him in police previously. In fact,
I knew everyone in my office. I had two ex
(02:16):
police in there. And so I went about a process
where I removed myself from the interview panel because I
knew two people on the panel who were being interviewed,
and everything I did was so overt. I went through steps.
In fact, I probably was too concerned about it, and
(02:37):
then I would be accused, put before a criminal court,
taken a trial for this matter. Have a look at
Michael Murphy where he's putting himself on a panel, he's
providing references, he's not disclosing any of this, and there
you can see there's a pattern where people are getting
(02:59):
promoted and perhaps not going through all the steps. Then
to sit back and allow this to play out in
the media until the public pressure was so much that
he had to put his hand on his heart and say, oh,
that was me, Sorry, I got it wrong. Compared to
what I went through, this is just simply unfair and
(03:24):
completely ridiculous. I was happy to be quiet, move on
with my life and put back and put this down
as a pretty dark time in my life. But I
have to speak up. This is just not acceptable when
you have the commissioner directly involved in my matter, It's
(03:45):
just completely unacceptable.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
What was it like for you that day when you
had the police turn up to your house and you
realize that this covert operation had been going on for months?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Well, Katie that we didn't realize that until my legal
team and I started going through the documents, that I
was under surveillance for months. You know, they were watching
me in my office, they were listening to things I
was saying, they had my phones off for about a year,
and the level of investigation and the techniques they used
(04:26):
normally attributed to or given to an investigation for something
serious such as a murder or a serious druggle importation.
It was just unbelievable the length and the costs they
went to for an accusation, which is really a hr matter,
(04:49):
not a criminal matter.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Colleen, Look, I can't even begin to imagine the toll
that it must have had on you personally, mentally, financially,
your career, your family. I mean, you've had to totally
uproot your life. Is it still raw five years on?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Look, it's been difficult. You know, my family and I
have been through. You know, I can't explain how difficult
it's been on so many levels. And I feel like
I've missed a couple of years with my children. I
just wasn't there, I wasn't capable. I went into a
(05:32):
pretty dark, dark place. There was times I didn't think
I would survive. And looking back now, it's hard to
put myself back in the shoes that I was wearing
them and understand how painful that was. When you were
accused of something that you know you didn't do it
(05:54):
is to not have a voice in that, and I
still this is the first time I've had a voice
in any of this. It is debilitating. There's no there's
no day that goes past that some memory of it
or doesn't appear, and I don't feel some still some
(06:15):
element of anxiety, sadness and frustration in relation to everything
that happened.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
How much has been a mum and having the love
from your children helped you through those dark days?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Oh, Katie, it's I sometimes wonder if I would be
here if it wasn't for my children, you know, And
they're very protective of me now, you know. They they
to have these little people that really didn't know what
was going on, but they sense something wasn't right. You know,
when when your mum's personality and that it completely changes
(06:50):
and they see that you're you're entirely sad and that
they know something pretty significant was going on. And so
trying to manage my children and manage the situation was
probably the most challenging thing I've ever done. And those
(07:10):
kids have been my shavior and still today, you know,
they've got that protection around me that will probably be
there forever.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Now I reckon it will be. Colleen, the Chief Minister
joins me on the show on Monday, and she said
that she's not ruled out an inquiry into your matter.
Is that something that you'd like to have happen, Katie?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Such a really good question. Look, I'm in the territory.
We call for inquiries on this, inquiries on that. There's
so many things, but you know what, we're just not
good at doing it. I don't have faith and anyone
could look into my matter and understand what occurred that
we're just not good at this. I think there is
enough known by government now, not only in relation to
(07:59):
my matter, but in relation to the Michael Murphy matter
to say, okay, we need to take some action. My
biggest thing here is I would love them to apologize
and say, hey, sorry, Colin, we got this wrong. We
simply got this wrong because they did. And I don't
think you need an expensive inquiry, which territories then have
(08:24):
to pay for, to be able to say, hey, we're
stuffed up here and we're sorry for what we put
you through. And I don't think you need an expensive
inquiry to understand that Michael Murphy's also made some mistakes.
I think what the territory needs to do is get
back on to the business of fixing the mistakes of
(08:46):
the past. And if you look at the Northern Territory
Police Force, it was a uniform I was proud to wear,
not so much the new color, but certainly the khaki
color I loved. I loved wearing the khaki color. The
respect of the community, and we were known as a
resilient and adaptable police force that we worked in pretty
(09:08):
harsh conditions. We did things that no other police force
would ever think are doing, and it was a great organization.
I really feel for the people in the police up there.
Many of my good friends are still cops in the
territory and they are great people. We still have a
great police force. But let's stop reviewing everything and let's
(09:29):
just fix it.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I mean, do you want the It sounds like what
you are after, though, is an apology. Is that something
that you are going to contact the Chief Minister about.
I mean, we're happy to ask her about it on
the show, but we're too from here with that.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Oh look, it's a really hard one. You know, you've
got a new Chief Minister. He's getting on with the
business of trying to fix the territory. There's massive issues
in the territory around crime, around the economy, around you know,
imagine being the chief minister of any jurisdiction. Of course,
(10:09):
you know. I would love to be able to sit
in a room with the chief and say, hey, this
is what's happened to me, this is what the consequences were.
I want you to make sure, while you're in power
that this doesn't happen to anyone else, because it shouldn't happen.
People should be protected for just doing their job. And
(10:31):
that's what I was doing. I was doing my job
and I had no protection, and it didn't matter who
I tried to get assistance from. Every door was closed.
We have to change that. We've got to understand that
these decisions and this approach has real implications for people.
We've got to have a government that's much more transparent,
(10:54):
much more accountability, and we've got to be decent to
each other. This is just the The territory is in
a really bad position, but it doesn't need to be.
Let's stop reviewing. Let's get on with the business of
getting the territory back to where it should be.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Colleen, in regard to your court trial, which was thrown
out due to a lack of evidence. There was the
revelation to come out of it with the racist remark
about the former acting Assistant Children's Commissioner, which police found
after trawling through months of secret recordings. Do you regret
making that comment? Oh?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Absolutely. I said that immediately upon my acquittal, that that
was disgraceful and if that's what they found after a
year of listening to me, then I probably I would
really challenge anyone who has their private conversations recorded for
(11:58):
a lengthy period that you would say things that you
wouldn't say in a public arena. By saying those comments
doesn't make me a racist. It means I said a
racist thing, and I said it under enormous pressure when
a lot of things were going on, and it is
not my best moment and it's something that I will
(12:21):
absolutely regret to the day I die.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Colleen, you've been a pioneer of women's football in the
Northern Territory. The ntfl's Women's Leagues Best and Fairest Award
named in your honor back in twenty sixteen, but your
name was later stripped from that medal. What kind of
impact did that have.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
That was I can't describe that impact was significant. To
be accused of being racist for making a comment. Was
that hurt? That hurt terribly a lot of my friends
in the territory of Indigenous people. I've coached indigenous football teams.
(13:05):
It was. It really hurt. And I think that the
I guess the strategy to try and bring me down
as a person was very much implemented once they realized
there was no criminality in anything that I did. It
was a pretty dirty game they played and it had
(13:27):
enormous impact on me on my reputation, you know. And
again that's something that I that I have to live
with now.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Colleen, if you could change something from your situation, what
would you like it to be?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Okay? I think what the territory has been missing is good, robust,
courageous leadership. Particularly in my matto. It was known by
the government of the day that there was no criminal
in my conduct, and that was known to the previous
Chief Minister and the Chief Ministers under the previous government,
(14:10):
but you know, they weren't willing to do anything about it.
What the territory needs is really strong leadership, stand up,
call out what's wrong and fix it. I've said it
in this interview. We've got to stop undertaking inquiries when
we already know there is an issue and we have
(14:32):
to take action and we've got to move forward. So
my message is make the decisions, the bold decisions, the
courageous decisions, and let's get back into the business of
improving the territory from the economy down to the crime.
Let's just get get on with get on with making
the territory great again.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Well, Colleen Gwin, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Thank you so much for joining us on the show.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Jeez, Katie, thank you, thank you.
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