Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, it's been thirty years since the Northern Territory first
legalized voluntary assisted dying in the Northern Territory, but now
with the last place in Australia without voluntary assisted dying
laws as we know every other state and the Act
of introduced legislation allowing terminally ill people to choose how
they die, but in the Northern Territory it is still
(00:23):
not an option. Go gentle. Australia's Andrew Denton is in
the top end this week, co hosting community forums with Kota,
calling on the Northern Territory government to stop stalling and
bring forward VAD laws. I caught up with him a
little earlier this morning. Andrew, good morning, Welcome to the
(00:43):
Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Thanks so much, Katie. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Now I understand that the first forum was held overnight.
How did it go?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It was really good be turn up with people and
be credit to CODA for organizing it. And the mood
of the room was unhappy. Unhappy that this has taken
so long to change the situation and there's still no
legislation before the Parliament. But also in comprehension, I mean,
(01:13):
how could this be the territory had these rights stripped
away by the federal government more than twenty years ago.
Three years ago, they were given the right back to
determine for themselves about this law, and still nothing's happened.
And so I think people were rightly angry. I mean,
why should Territorians be second class citizens in their own country.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
What were some of the voices, the stories the people
that you heard from last night. What did they have
to say?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Well, a lot of it was questions, but some of
them were the kind of stories which in other states
have led to legislative change. In other words, they're the
stories of the damage that's done when you don't have
an assistant dying law. There was one young woman, Kelly Baylor.
She was there with most of her family, her brothers,
and speaking on behalf of them because her dad, John
(02:06):
had died really horrendously of motor neur own disease, a
really terrible disease, and she talked about what his last
weeks and months were like and how powerless they felt,
and how awful was not then, not just then, but
now knowing that they couldn't help this man who is
this big, strong, fit, healthy man, and they saw him
(02:28):
deteriorate to almost nothing, and that spoke very much to
the reason why you have an assisted dying law so
that people have a choice, so they don't have to
be taken through to the brutal end of a brutal disease.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And I think you hit the nail on the head there.
And it's something that we've spoken about on this show before,
is it's the choice right. And you know, for any
of us who've watched somebody that we love dying, you
know them having that choice whether they choose, you know,
to choose that time and you know how they go
themselves or you know, whether they din't. But fundamentally it
(03:04):
comes down to their choice.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
And choice is so powerful. We know because these laws
have been in existence around Australia, like in Victorian now
for six years, we have a pretty good sense of
the kind of people that do make this choice. And
many of them are also in palliative care. It's not
like they're choosing between one or the other. And they
like to keep their options open and some people have
a right to VAD but in the end they choose
(03:29):
palliative care. It's about in our lives, we have a
right to make medical decisions about what we do and
don't do. You know, will I have that hip replacement
or whatever it is. We have that right, and that's
what this is about. That right shouldn't be taken away
from you at the one point we're all going to
get to, which is dying. And so choice is so powerful.
(03:52):
It means people can get on with living even while
they might be dying, without being consumed with anxiety about
what the end is going to be like.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And Andrew, you know, I know that for some people
it may come down to their religious views. They may
have deeply personal views as to why they don't agree
with voluntary assisted dying. But I think, you know, like
it surely should come down to that personal choice and
giving people options. And you know, I know when I
watch my dad die, he may not have chosen voluntary
(04:28):
assisted dying. In fact, he probably wouldn't have. However, that
would have come down to what he wanted to do
and what he decided to do, particularly as you're suffering.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
That's right. I have real respect for people's individual faith,
you know, to use that old John Lennon min whatever
gets you through the night, if it's God, if it's
your belief, in the church. If it's your faith that
takes you through to the other side, then you know,
I totally support that. The issue here is not that
(05:00):
because you can conscientiously object, you don't have to have
anything to do with it. The issue here is an
attempt by politicized faith groups to impose those values on
everyone else. And interestingly, over the course of these laws
as they've unrolled around Australia, it's not a universal view.
I've seen people of faith and people at work within
(05:22):
faith based institutions come to understand and deeply support us
as to dying as a choice because they understand that
as a compassionate and dare I say Christian thing to
do to treat somebody else with mercy, which is you know,
that's what I was always taught about Jesus at school,
that mercy was one of his big things and this
(05:42):
is a merciful thing to do.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Andrew in terms of you know, watching this legislation roll
out in other states and other locations, and I know
that you know you've been involved with go gentle well,
you know for a long long time. As you've seen
the legislation roll out in other locations, what you know,
what has it been like, what are some of the
lessons that have been learned? What are some of maybe
(06:07):
you know, the surprises that from those that have potentially
been opposed to voluntary assisted dying.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Well, look, i'll give you the snapshot. There's been about
like this. The first law was in Vitoria six years ago.
Since then, about eight thousand the Australians have applied around Australia,
less than half have actually used the medication. Interestingly, a
lot of people have the medication, but they don't end
up using it, partly because that's that's all they need,
(06:36):
that level of control. They're happy to see their life
through to its end naturally, partly because many come to
it too late and they die. The average age of
these people is about seventy four. It's pretty much fifty
to fifty men and women. The vast majority have cancer.
No great surprises with any of that. The really interesting
(06:56):
thing is is that eighty percent of those people are
also in palliative care. And all those things that the
people that argue that against these laws were going to happen,
the opposite has proven to be true. It hasn't damaged
palliative care. In fact, it's increased the number of people
using palliative care because more people learn about it. It
(07:17):
hasn't affected the relationship between doctors and patients as people
said it would. In fact, the opposite is true. We
have so many testimonies from families deeply grateful to the
health professionals that help them, But we also have a
testimony of some doctors saying, this is the most profound
thing I've done in my career, and it's changed the
way I think about how I treat my patience. There
(07:40):
hasn't been any evidence of the thing that was always
raised that the reason you can't have these laws, which
is coercion elderly people being encouraged to end their lives
for whatever reason. In fact, all the evidence is the
other way. It's cursion, not to which comes often from families,
but also, i'm sorry to say, from institutions and health
(08:00):
professionals that don't agree with this law, who use sometimes
very under the counter and sometimes very overt ways of
discouraging or blocking people from making their own choice.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Wow, and I mean fundamentally, it's your choice, or it
should be your choice. Andrew, you've been advocating for voluntary
assisted dying for a long time now. Why is this
something that's deeply personal for you?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Well, it started with watching my own father die and
I've never forgotten those last three days. But it really
got supercharged once I took about a year going around
Australia and also internationally to explore this issue. And what
I began to realize, and I've heard far, far too
many accounts, is that there are too many Australians that
(08:51):
die badly, and they die badly in ways that are
not necessary. It's because of ideology, it's because of systems
that are inflexible, it's because they don't have a choice.
And it wasn't just the way people were dying, but
worse than that, it was the way terminally all people
around this country on a weekly basis were taking their
(09:11):
own lives because they they had no control over what
was going to happen. So I was and remained very
fired up about what I saw as a deep injustice.
And that's why I'm determined to see not only these
laws exist around Australia, but that they'd be operating in
a way that it's truly equitable and truly fair.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And I know that you have said that this change
really won't come about from politicians alone. It has to
come from people. What do you think that territorians can
do if they want to help push for these laws?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Well, I can assure everyone listening that, I mean, there's
been no greater social revolution in modern Australian political times
than VAD because I've seen state by state people who've
been through this, or who know someone that's been through this,
stand up and these amongst the things you can do
which are really effective. Write to your MP and emails fine,
(10:10):
let us even better, or go to their office. Believe me,
MPs they pay close attention when people start writing to them.
But if you're going to see your doctor or know
your local doctor, ask them what they think. Ask them
if they agree with this, then they should contact their
local MP. Turn up when the bill is going to
(10:33):
be heard in parliament. Turn up a parliament be there
in numbers. This is what's happened in every other Stag
and the people stepping forward in those numbers. You know,
I sat through all night debates in different parliaments, and
sitting alongside me were terminally ill people and they were
sitting there and they weren't even going to benefit from
the law. Because it was going to take too long.
But they were sitting there daring parliamentarians to look them
(10:57):
in the eye and say, no, I'm not going to
pass the law that could help you.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
How brave, how brave of them and incredible. Yeah, And
I you know, I think for some people, you really
don't realize until you've watched somebody love die and be
in pain and suffer how important it is for them
to have that choice. And I think it's important for
us all to think about it before we get to
that point as well.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yes, yes, absolutely, And it's not just about assist dying,
it's about palliative care, it's about advanced care direct. Yes,
it's none of us like the subject of dying, but
unfortunately it's the one inevitable thing, and so yes, it
makes sense. I'd also just make the point too. Yep,
(11:43):
there's possibly government MPs listening, and you're Chief Minister and
miss Finocchio, this should be a win win for the government.
It's they if they do this right, they can and
you'll be stepping forward and not just saying we're going
to pass an assisted dying all, but we're going to
do end of life care better for everyone than the
(12:04):
Northern Territory, we're going to give more money to pallettes Care,
We're going to bring an assisted dying. We're going to
make end of life a better experience for every territory
in That's how they've done it in other states, and
it's a win win for a smart government.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Well, Andrew Denton, I really appreciate your time this morning. Now,
to those who've not been able to attend the two
forums happening, where else can they get some further information
about Go Gentle. If they've got some questions, or if
they do want to find out a little bit more
about how things have happened in other states.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
They can go to our website Go Gentleaustralia dot org
dot au, or I would advise them to go to
Kota here in Darwin or the Northern Territory Voluntary Euthanasia Society,
both of whom will give them great information and also
give them ways to get further engaged.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Well, Go Gentle Australia's founding director Andrew Denton, much love,
Dozsie and a very well known voice I know to
so many people listening this morning, I really appreciate your time.
Thank you very much for chatting with.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Me, Katie. Thank you so much, great to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Thank you, thanks very much.
Well, it's been thirty years since the Northern Territory first
legalized voluntary assisted dying in the Northern Territory, but now
with the last place in Australia without voluntary assisted dying
laws as we know every other state and the Act
of introduced legislation allowing terminally ill people to choose how
they die, but in the Northern Territory it is still
(00:23):
not an option. Go gentle. Australia's Andrew Denton is in
the top end this week, co hosting community forums with Kota,
calling on the Northern Territory government to stop stalling and
bring forward VAD laws. I caught up with him a
little earlier this morning. Andrew, good morning, Welcome to the
(00:43):
Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Thanks so much, Katie. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Now I understand that the first forum was held overnight.
How did it go?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It was really good be turn up with people and
be credit to CODA for organizing it. And the mood
of the room was unhappy. Unhappy that this has taken
so long to change the situation and there's still no
legislation before the Parliament. But also in comprehension, I mean,
(01:13):
how could this be the territory had these rights stripped
away by the federal government more than twenty years ago.
Three years ago, they were given the right back to
determine for themselves about this law, and still nothing's happened.
And so I think people were rightly angry. I mean,
why should Territorians be second class citizens in their own country.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
What were some of the voices, the stories the people
that you heard from last night. What did they have
to say?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Well, a lot of it was questions, but some of
them were the kind of stories which in other states
have led to legislative change. In other words, they're the
stories of the damage that's done when you don't have
an assistant dying law. There was one young woman, Kelly Baylor.
She was there with most of her family, her brothers,
and speaking on behalf of them because her dad, John
(02:06):
had died really horrendously of motor neur own disease, a
really terrible disease, and she talked about what his last
weeks and months were like and how powerless they felt,
and how awful was not then, not just then, but
now knowing that they couldn't help this man who is
this big, strong, fit, healthy man, and they saw him
(02:28):
deteriorate to almost nothing, and that spoke very much to
the reason why you have an assisted dying law so
that people have a choice, so they don't have to
be taken through to the brutal end of a brutal disease.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And I think you hit the nail on the head there.
And it's something that we've spoken about on this show before,
is it's the choice right. And you know, for any
of us who've watched somebody that we love dying, you
know them having that choice whether they choose, you know,
to choose that time and you know how they go
themselves or you know, whether they din't. But fundamentally it
(03:04):
comes down to their choice.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
And choice is so powerful. We know because these laws
have been in existence around Australia, like in Victorian now
for six years, we have a pretty good sense of
the kind of people that do make this choice. And
many of them are also in palliative care. It's not
like they're choosing between one or the other. And they
like to keep their options open and some people have
a right to VAD but in the end they choose
(03:29):
palliative care. It's about in our lives, we have a
right to make medical decisions about what we do and
don't do. You know, will I have that hip replacement
or whatever it is. We have that right, and that's
what this is about. That right shouldn't be taken away
from you at the one point we're all going to
get to, which is dying. And so choice is so powerful.
(03:52):
It means people can get on with living even while
they might be dying, without being consumed with anxiety about
what the end is going to be like.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And Andrew, you know, I know that for some people
it may come down to their religious views. They may
have deeply personal views as to why they don't agree
with voluntary assisted dying. But I think, you know, like
it surely should come down to that personal choice and
giving people options. And you know, I know when I
watch my dad die, he may not have chosen voluntary
(04:28):
assisted dying. In fact, he probably wouldn't have. However, that
would have come down to what he wanted to do
and what he decided to do, particularly as you're suffering.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
That's right. I have real respect for people's individual faith,
you know, to use that old John Lennon min whatever
gets you through the night, if it's God, if it's
your belief, in the church. If it's your faith that
takes you through to the other side, then you know,
I totally support that. The issue here is not that
(05:00):
because you can conscientiously object, you don't have to have
anything to do with it. The issue here is an
attempt by politicized faith groups to impose those values on
everyone else. And interestingly, over the course of these laws
as they've unrolled around Australia, it's not a universal view.
I've seen people of faith and people at work within
(05:22):
faith based institutions come to understand and deeply support us
as to dying as a choice because they understand that
as a compassionate and dare I say Christian thing to
do to treat somebody else with mercy, which is you know,
that's what I was always taught about Jesus at school,
that mercy was one of his big things and this
(05:42):
is a merciful thing to do.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Andrew in terms of you know, watching this legislation roll
out in other states and other locations, and I know
that you know you've been involved with go gentle well,
you know for a long long time. As you've seen
the legislation roll out in other locations, what you know,
what has it been like, what are some of the
lessons that have been learned? What are some of maybe
(06:07):
you know, the surprises that from those that have potentially
been opposed to voluntary assisted dying.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Well, look, i'll give you the snapshot. There's been about
like this. The first law was in Vitoria six years ago.
Since then, about eight thousand the Australians have applied around Australia,
less than half have actually used the medication. Interestingly, a
lot of people have the medication, but they don't end
up using it, partly because that's that's all they need,
(06:36):
that level of control. They're happy to see their life
through to its end naturally, partly because many come to
it too late and they die. The average age of
these people is about seventy four. It's pretty much fifty
to fifty men and women. The vast majority have cancer.
No great surprises with any of that. The really interesting
(06:56):
thing is is that eighty percent of those people are
also in palliative care. And all those things that the
people that argue that against these laws were going to happen,
the opposite has proven to be true. It hasn't damaged
palliative care. In fact, it's increased the number of people
using palliative care because more people learn about it. It
(07:17):
hasn't affected the relationship between doctors and patients as people
said it would. In fact, the opposite is true. We
have so many testimonies from families deeply grateful to the
health professionals that help them, But we also have a
testimony of some doctors saying, this is the most profound
thing I've done in my career, and it's changed the
way I think about how I treat my patience. There
(07:40):
hasn't been any evidence of the thing that was always
raised that the reason you can't have these laws, which
is coercion elderly people being encouraged to end their lives
for whatever reason. In fact, all the evidence is the
other way. It's cursion, not to which comes often from families,
but also, i'm sorry to say, from institutions and health
(08:00):
professionals that don't agree with this law, who use sometimes
very under the counter and sometimes very overt ways of
discouraging or blocking people from making their own choice.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Wow, and I mean fundamentally, it's your choice, or it
should be your choice. Andrew, you've been advocating for voluntary
assisted dying for a long time now. Why is this
something that's deeply personal for you?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Well, it started with watching my own father die and
I've never forgotten those last three days. But it really
got supercharged once I took about a year going around
Australia and also internationally to explore this issue. And what
I began to realize, and I've heard far, far too
many accounts, is that there are too many Australians that
(08:51):
die badly, and they die badly in ways that are
not necessary. It's because of ideology, it's because of systems
that are inflexible, it's because they don't have a choice.
And it wasn't just the way people were dying, but
worse than that, it was the way terminally all people
around this country on a weekly basis were taking their
(09:11):
own lives because they they had no control over what
was going to happen. So I was and remained very
fired up about what I saw as a deep injustice.
And that's why I'm determined to see not only these
laws exist around Australia, but that they'd be operating in
a way that it's truly equitable and truly fair.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And I know that you have said that this change
really won't come about from politicians alone. It has to
come from people. What do you think that territorians can
do if they want to help push for these laws?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Well, I can assure everyone listening that, I mean, there's
been no greater social revolution in modern Australian political times
than VAD because I've seen state by state people who've
been through this, or who know someone that's been through this,
stand up and these amongst the things you can do
which are really effective. Write to your MP and emails fine,
(10:10):
let us even better, or go to their office. Believe me,
MPs they pay close attention when people start writing to them.
But if you're going to see your doctor or know
your local doctor, ask them what they think. Ask them
if they agree with this, then they should contact their
local MP. Turn up when the bill is going to
(10:33):
be heard in parliament. Turn up a parliament be there
in numbers. This is what's happened in every other Stag
and the people stepping forward in those numbers. You know,
I sat through all night debates in different parliaments, and
sitting alongside me were terminally ill people and they were
sitting there and they weren't even going to benefit from
the law. Because it was going to take too long.
But they were sitting there daring parliamentarians to look them
(10:57):
in the eye and say, no, I'm not going to
pass the law that could help you.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
How brave, how brave of them and incredible. Yeah, And
I you know, I think for some people, you really
don't realize until you've watched somebody love die and be
in pain and suffer how important it is for them
to have that choice. And I think it's important for
us all to think about it before we get to
that point as well.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yes, yes, absolutely, And it's not just about assist dying,
it's about palliative care, it's about advanced care direct. Yes,
it's none of us like the subject of dying, but
unfortunately it's the one inevitable thing, and so yes, it
makes sense. I'd also just make the point too. Yep,
(11:43):
there's possibly government MPs listening, and you're Chief Minister and
miss Finocchio, this should be a win win for the government.
It's they if they do this right, they can and
you'll be stepping forward and not just saying we're going
to pass an assisted dying all, but we're going to
do end of life care better for everyone than the
(12:04):
Northern Territory, we're going to give more money to pallettes Care,
We're going to bring an assisted dying. We're going to
make end of life a better experience for every territory
in That's how they've done it in other states, and
it's a win win for a smart government.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Well, Andrew Denton, I really appreciate your time this morning. Now,
to those who've not been able to attend the two
forums happening, where else can they get some further information
about Go Gentle. If they've got some questions, or if
they do want to find out a little bit more
about how things have happened in other states.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
They can go to our website Go Gentleaustralia dot org
dot au, or I would advise them to go to
Kota here in Darwin or the Northern Territory Voluntary Euthanasia Society,
both of whom will give them great information and also
give them ways to get further engaged.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Well, Go Gentle Australia's founding director Andrew Denton, much love,
Dozsie and a very well known voice I know to
so many people listening this morning, I really appreciate your time.
Thank you very much for chatting with.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Me, Katie. Thank you so much, great to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Thank you, thanks very much.
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