November 4, 2025 • 13 mins
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We had the Melbourne Cup yesterday and what some people
might not know is that the Northern Territory plays a
major role in regulation of Australia's biggest betting companies because
they pay minimal tax in the NT. Now that's come
under the spotlight more recently due to a four Corners
investigation which uncovered allegations of conflicts of interest and a
pro industry bias at the regulator, and evidence of lengthy delays.
(00:25):
That's led to several critics, including the Independent Member for Johnston,
Justine Davis, calling for an independent inquiry into the Raising
and Wagering Commission, and Justine joins me on the line.
Good morning, Justine, Hey Katie, how are you going? Heah?
Really well, Now, Justine, what has been your main concern
with this body here and the allegations that have been raised.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I think there are several things that are really important
for us to look at. First of all, exactly as
you just said, the NT is the quasi national regulator
for online gambling, so that means that we're actually playing
a role that affects not just people in the Northern
Territory but across all of Australia. And the reason that
we're the national regulator. The reason that gambling companies choose
to come here is because we have the lowest taxes
(01:12):
and we have the weakest regulations. And what that means
is that people are getting harmed by gambling and they're
getting away from away with it because our act here
is too weak. It's a national problem and there's been
calls across Australia for national regulation of the gambling industry.
But here in the Northern Territory, while we wait for
(01:34):
the federal government to take some action on this, we
have a role and I would say a responsibility to
do something about it as well.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Dustine, what kind of complaints have been made and what
kind of issues I guess have been raised because for
some of us that maybe aren't gamblers, you know, we
might be thinking to ourselves, who does it need to change?
I mean, what kind of issues have come up? If
something's not broken, does it need to be fixed?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah? I think if any one hasn't seen the Four
Corners Report, I'd recommend that you watch it because it
goes through exactly what you're saying in lots of detail.
And not only are people who who choose to gamble
harmed by the industry because they the industry works in
a way that it gambling is an addiction. I think
(02:20):
everyone knows that this is not about people having a flutter,
which is language that has been used, you know, all
over the place. That's a misrepresentation. This is about trying
to protect people who have an addiction to gambling and
it destroys their lives, and the gambling industry is set
up in a way to ensure that that addiction is fed,
that people continue to gamble even when they it's going
(02:42):
to do huge time to themselves and their family. And
sometimes also people having great losses who are actually not
even gamblers and they're not able to recoup the losses.
So there's lots of examples of that which you know,
we need to we need to address.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Justin from your perspective. The chair Alistairshields has told the
NT News that the Commissions strong enough to manage the industry.
Do you agree.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I don't think there's any evidence of that. I will
say that it was welcome. I welcomed hearing that they have.
Mister Shields said that the Commissioners have now voluntarily agreed
to stop accepting gifts, so for a long time here,
we've had a situation where the people who are regulating
an industry are also accepting gifts from that industry. So
(03:34):
that's a clear conflict. So the chair came out this
week and said that they have made a decision to
stop accepting gifts and to close their bedding accounts. That's welcome,
but it's certainly not enough. He also said that they're
not going to make the conflicts of interest register public.
We need to know if there are people who are
in charge of regulating an industry, we need to know
(03:56):
whether there are conflicts of interest and how they're being managed.
He also said, in terms of continuing conflicts, that it's
they're not going to accept gifts, but they can keep
owning race sources because there's appropriate oversight from the Thoroughbred racing,
from Fibred Racing MT and the Racing Appeals Tribunal. But
he's the deputy chair of the Racing Appeal Tribute Racing
(04:20):
Appeals Tribunal, and so he's overseeing himself. And that's the
situation we often seen in the Northern Territory. You and
I have talked before about conflicts of Indians. We're a
small jurisdiction. We know that people are going to be
holding multiple roles, but we need to make sure if
that's the case, that it's managed really properly so the
(04:40):
public can trust that the institutions that are there actually
to protect us are doing their job.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So justin what do you reckon needs to happen here?
Do you think that we're maybe in a situation where,
you know, where we actually have a national body overseeing things.
What do you reckon needs to happen?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I think think we absolutely need a national body and
I think that's been called for for a long time.
There's a review that's sitting with the Albanza government for
them to respond to, which makes those recommendations really clearly.
So there is also some we need to be asking
the federal government what are they doing about this? But
(05:20):
while we're waiting, I think we can do things here
in the Northern Territory and that was what I asked
the Attorney General to refer our current Act to the
appropriate committee so it could be reviewed to make sure
that it fits for purpose. Her response to me was
to invite me to go to the racing with her,
and I just think that's really minimizing the experience and
(05:44):
the harm that people have as a result of gambling.
That's not taking this issue seriously. I mean, I think
here in the Northern Territory, if we're going to look
at the Act here, we need a proper independent commission.
We need a proper independent chaf We need to make
sure that fines are actually adequate. It needs to be
properly staffed. At the moment, it's very unclear how it's staffed,
(06:08):
who it's staffed by. We're told there's no full time
staff there. We need to have proper information on that.
We need to There was a change to the Act
last in twenty twenty four. We need to there's now
a two year time limit on complaints. If anyone who's
listening has had anyone affected by gambling, you know that
(06:28):
actually to address it can take a really long time.
It's a really terrible impact on people. Two years is
just not long enough. It means that many people are
actually excluded from being able to make a complaint when
they have been harmed by the industry. It should be
at least six years. I think there are lots of
really concrete things that we can do around the Act.
(06:52):
We should put a ceiling on gambling deposits per month
for young people. Many countries have done this. There's lots
of things that we could do. It's not about stopping
people gambling, it's about making sure that if people do
do that, they're protected.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I think it's real. It's like it's really one
of those issues that you may not realize it's an
issue and just how big an issue it is until
you know, maybe your family's impacted or a friend is impacted,
and then I suppose you see just how harmful it
can be if you know, if it's not done in
a responsible manner.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Exactly exactly, And that's why we have regulators. That's why
we have independent authorities to make sure that you know,
whatever whatever people are choosing to do, we have a
robust framework in place to protect them. And so we
need to have that framework, that legislation, that commission working
really well to make sure that that can happen.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Justin on another issue, we know that a Senate inquiry
into Youth Justice has been re established as I understand it,
do you know what the terms of reference are for
that inquiry or what exactly it's going to be looking at?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, So I think the inquiry is there was an
interant inquiry in twenty twenty four, so an inquiry in
twenty twenty four which put an report together and said
that they're needed to be further national consideration on those issues.
So what this current inquiry says is what this current
(08:24):
inquiry wants to look at is looking at whether children's
rights nationally. This is a national issue. This is not
just to do with the Northern Territory. Once again, looking
at whether children's rights are being infringed, how we're treating
children in the justice system in Australia, aligned with our
international obligations, looking at whether there should be national minimum
(08:45):
standards that can be enforced across all states and territories.
So we're all working in a way that's consistent and
that is protecting children, that looks at solutions that are
actually going to keep children and also our communities say
and also looks if the focus on over incarceration of
Aboriginal children, which here in the Northern Territory, as we know,
(09:06):
more than ninety percent of the children, sometimes one hundred
percent of the children who are locked up, but Aboriginal.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Justin I know the Northern Territory government is determined to
continue with their strong mandates on crime. Would the findings
from that inquiry do you know if they'd be enforceable.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It's a great question. So I think the relationship between
the Northern Territory and the Commonwealth is one that there's
been quite a lot of discussion about over the path
or over the past few decades. I think our relationship
with the Commonwealth, they have, well, almost eighty percent of
our money comes from the Commonwealth, and I think that's
(09:44):
an important thing for people to know. We're funded almost
entirely by the Commonwealth government. Some of that funding is
tied to particular outcomes, so for example, closing the gap outcomes,
and if we're not meeting those outcomes and at the
moment we are going back in the majority of them,
then I think the Commonwealth has a role there.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
There's as the government sort of juggles that though as well,
when you know, like when they feel as though they're
pushing a mandate that the majority voted for, but then
as you touched on the you know, the federal government saying, well,
hang on a second, we've got these you know, we've
got these other targets that we want you to meet.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah. Look, I think that it's it's a challenge. I
think what the community voted for is to have a
safe community, and I think what we need to do,
as once again as you and I have talked about
lots of times before, is actually work out what's going
to make a safe community. You know, I don't think
we need to be soft on crime. I think we
need to be saff Sorry, we need to bet on
(10:48):
the causes of crime. I think we need to stop
sort of doing this ambulance at the bottom of cliff.
We know that, you know, eighty five percent of kids
who are locked up here end up back in prison.
That is not working. That's not working to stop youth offending.
It's not working to keep our communities safer. So and
there are many examples of things that things that do work.
(11:12):
So that's what we need to be focusing on. You know,
my backgrounds in justice, I've seen many things here in
the territory, in other places in Australia and in places
outside Australia that actually work long term to build safe
communities and to protect our children.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Justin before I let you go really quick, one Senator
Lydia Thorpe has accused the Northern Territory Government of being
racist in the Senate yesterday. And I know that critics
do claim that the Northern Territory Government government, i should say,
is targeting, you know, a certain group of people, or
that some of their policies are What do you make
(11:50):
of her making that claim in the Senate.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I mean, I think we're all really afraid of language
around racism, and that includes in Parliament when it's talked about.
I've talked about systemic racism in parliament and what that
means is that when you've got a system that operates
and impacts differently on people from one background to another,
not because of anyone's intention, not because of you know,
(12:17):
people wanting to go out and be you know, discriminatory
against one group, but because a system is set up
that impacts inequitably on one group of people. That's something
we need to address here in the Northern Territory. We
have the most imprisoned, the highest imprisonment rate of Indigenous
people in the world. We have, you know, as I said,
(12:39):
almost you know, sometimes one hundred percent of our young
people who are locked up are Aboriginal. Eighty percent of
people in the prison system are Aboriginal. Something is going
wrong there and we need to look at it. I
don't think we need to get caught up in language
which is really inflammatory and difficult for people to hear
what's actually underneath it. I think we should welcome saying hotual,
(13:00):
let's look at this whole picture. This is not something
that any of us can You know, well many people
that I think I expect you don't think is acceptable.
It doesn't mean that we don't want a safe community.
It doesn't mean that we don't want to be tough
on crime, but it does mean we need to actually
look at what's happening here and address address the reasons
why it's happening and fix them up.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Justine, we are going to have to leave it there.
Really appreciate your time as always, good to chat with you.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Thanks Katie, thank you you too.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
That is Justine Davisse, the Independent member for Johnston
We had the Melbourne Cup yesterday and what some people
might not know is that the Northern Territory plays a
major role in regulation of Australia's biggest betting companies because
they pay minimal tax in the NT. Now that's come
under the spotlight more recently due to a four Corners
investigation which uncovered allegations of conflicts of interest and a
pro industry bias at the regulator, and evidence of lengthy delays.
(00:25):
That's led to several critics, including the Independent Member for Johnston,
Justine Davis, calling for an independent inquiry into the Raising
and Wagering Commission, and Justine joins me on the line.
Good morning, Justine, Hey Katie, how are you going? Heah?
Really well, Now, Justine, what has been your main concern
with this body here and the allegations that have been raised.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I think there are several things that are really important
for us to look at. First of all, exactly as
you just said, the NT is the quasi national regulator
for online gambling, so that means that we're actually playing
a role that affects not just people in the Northern
Territory but across all of Australia. And the reason that
we're the national regulator. The reason that gambling companies choose
to come here is because we have the lowest taxes
(01:12):
and we have the weakest regulations. And what that means
is that people are getting harmed by gambling and they're
getting away from away with it because our act here
is too weak. It's a national problem and there's been
calls across Australia for national regulation of the gambling industry.
But here in the Northern Territory, while we wait for
(01:34):
the federal government to take some action on this, we
have a role and I would say a responsibility to
do something about it as well.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Dustine, what kind of complaints have been made and what
kind of issues I guess have been raised because for
some of us that maybe aren't gamblers, you know, we
might be thinking to ourselves, who does it need to change?
I mean, what kind of issues have come up? If
something's not broken, does it need to be fixed?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah? I think if any one hasn't seen the Four
Corners Report, I'd recommend that you watch it because it
goes through exactly what you're saying in lots of detail.
And not only are people who who choose to gamble
harmed by the industry because they the industry works in
a way that it gambling is an addiction. I think
(02:20):
everyone knows that this is not about people having a flutter,
which is language that has been used, you know, all
over the place. That's a misrepresentation. This is about trying
to protect people who have an addiction to gambling and
it destroys their lives, and the gambling industry is set
up in a way to ensure that that addiction is fed,
that people continue to gamble even when they it's going
(02:42):
to do huge time to themselves and their family. And
sometimes also people having great losses who are actually not
even gamblers and they're not able to recoup the losses.
So there's lots of examples of that which you know,
we need to we need to address.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Justin from your perspective. The chair Alistairshields has told the
NT News that the Commissions strong enough to manage the industry.
Do you agree.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I don't think there's any evidence of that. I will
say that it was welcome. I welcomed hearing that they have.
Mister Shields said that the Commissioners have now voluntarily agreed
to stop accepting gifts, so for a long time here,
we've had a situation where the people who are regulating
an industry are also accepting gifts from that industry. So
(03:34):
that's a clear conflict. So the chair came out this
week and said that they have made a decision to
stop accepting gifts and to close their bedding accounts. That's welcome,
but it's certainly not enough. He also said that they're
not going to make the conflicts of interest register public.
We need to know if there are people who are
in charge of regulating an industry, we need to know
(03:56):
whether there are conflicts of interest and how they're being managed.
He also said, in terms of continuing conflicts, that it's
they're not going to accept gifts, but they can keep
owning race sources because there's appropriate oversight from the Thoroughbred racing,
from Fibred Racing MT and the Racing Appeals Tribunal. But
he's the deputy chair of the Racing Appeal Tribute Racing
(04:20):
Appeals Tribunal, and so he's overseeing himself. And that's the
situation we often seen in the Northern Territory. You and
I have talked before about conflicts of Indians. We're a
small jurisdiction. We know that people are going to be
holding multiple roles, but we need to make sure if
that's the case, that it's managed really properly so the
(04:40):
public can trust that the institutions that are there actually
to protect us are doing their job.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So justin what do you reckon needs to happen here?
Do you think that we're maybe in a situation where,
you know, where we actually have a national body overseeing things.
What do you reckon needs to happen?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I think think we absolutely need a national body and
I think that's been called for for a long time.
There's a review that's sitting with the Albanza government for
them to respond to, which makes those recommendations really clearly.
So there is also some we need to be asking
the federal government what are they doing about this? But
(05:20):
while we're waiting, I think we can do things here
in the Northern Territory and that was what I asked
the Attorney General to refer our current Act to the
appropriate committee so it could be reviewed to make sure
that it fits for purpose. Her response to me was
to invite me to go to the racing with her,
and I just think that's really minimizing the experience and
(05:44):
the harm that people have as a result of gambling.
That's not taking this issue seriously. I mean, I think
here in the Northern Territory, if we're going to look
at the Act here, we need a proper independent commission.
We need a proper independent chaf We need to make
sure that fines are actually adequate. It needs to be
properly staffed. At the moment, it's very unclear how it's staffed,
(06:08):
who it's staffed by. We're told there's no full time
staff there. We need to have proper information on that.
We need to There was a change to the Act
last in twenty twenty four. We need to there's now
a two year time limit on complaints. If anyone who's
listening has had anyone affected by gambling, you know that
(06:28):
actually to address it can take a really long time.
It's a really terrible impact on people. Two years is
just not long enough. It means that many people are
actually excluded from being able to make a complaint when
they have been harmed by the industry. It should be
at least six years. I think there are lots of
really concrete things that we can do around the Act.
(06:52):
We should put a ceiling on gambling deposits per month
for young people. Many countries have done this. There's lots
of things that we could do. It's not about stopping
people gambling, it's about making sure that if people do
do that, they're protected.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I think it's real. It's like it's really one
of those issues that you may not realize it's an
issue and just how big an issue it is until
you know, maybe your family's impacted or a friend is impacted,
and then I suppose you see just how harmful it
can be if you know, if it's not done in
a responsible manner.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Exactly exactly, And that's why we have regulators. That's why
we have independent authorities to make sure that you know,
whatever whatever people are choosing to do, we have a
robust framework in place to protect them. And so we
need to have that framework, that legislation, that commission working
really well to make sure that that can happen.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Justin on another issue, we know that a Senate inquiry
into Youth Justice has been re established as I understand it,
do you know what the terms of reference are for
that inquiry or what exactly it's going to be looking at?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, So I think the inquiry is there was an
interant inquiry in twenty twenty four, so an inquiry in
twenty twenty four which put an report together and said
that they're needed to be further national consideration on those issues.
So what this current inquiry says is what this current
(08:24):
inquiry wants to look at is looking at whether children's
rights nationally. This is a national issue. This is not
just to do with the Northern Territory. Once again, looking
at whether children's rights are being infringed, how we're treating
children in the justice system in Australia, aligned with our
international obligations, looking at whether there should be national minimum
(08:45):
standards that can be enforced across all states and territories.
So we're all working in a way that's consistent and
that is protecting children, that looks at solutions that are
actually going to keep children and also our communities say
and also looks if the focus on over incarceration of
Aboriginal children, which here in the Northern Territory, as we know,
(09:06):
more than ninety percent of the children, sometimes one hundred
percent of the children who are locked up, but Aboriginal.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Justin I know the Northern Territory government is determined to
continue with their strong mandates on crime. Would the findings
from that inquiry do you know if they'd be enforceable.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It's a great question. So I think the relationship between
the Northern Territory and the Commonwealth is one that there's
been quite a lot of discussion about over the path
or over the past few decades. I think our relationship
with the Commonwealth, they have, well, almost eighty percent of
our money comes from the Commonwealth, and I think that's
(09:44):
an important thing for people to know. We're funded almost
entirely by the Commonwealth government. Some of that funding is
tied to particular outcomes, so for example, closing the gap outcomes,
and if we're not meeting those outcomes and at the
moment we are going back in the majority of them,
then I think the Commonwealth has a role there.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
There's as the government sort of juggles that though as well,
when you know, like when they feel as though they're
pushing a mandate that the majority voted for, but then
as you touched on the you know, the federal government saying, well,
hang on a second, we've got these you know, we've
got these other targets that we want you to meet.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah. Look, I think that it's it's a challenge. I
think what the community voted for is to have a
safe community, and I think what we need to do,
as once again as you and I have talked about
lots of times before, is actually work out what's going
to make a safe community. You know, I don't think
we need to be soft on crime. I think we
need to be saff Sorry, we need to bet on
(10:48):
the causes of crime. I think we need to stop
sort of doing this ambulance at the bottom of cliff.
We know that, you know, eighty five percent of kids
who are locked up here end up back in prison.
That is not working. That's not working to stop youth offending.
It's not working to keep our communities safer. So and
there are many examples of things that things that do work.
(11:12):
So that's what we need to be focusing on. You know,
my backgrounds in justice, I've seen many things here in
the territory, in other places in Australia and in places
outside Australia that actually work long term to build safe
communities and to protect our children.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Justin before I let you go really quick, one Senator
Lydia Thorpe has accused the Northern Territory Government of being
racist in the Senate yesterday. And I know that critics
do claim that the Northern Territory Government government, i should say,
is targeting, you know, a certain group of people, or
that some of their policies are What do you make
(11:50):
of her making that claim in the Senate.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I mean, I think we're all really afraid of language
around racism, and that includes in Parliament when it's talked about.
I've talked about systemic racism in parliament and what that
means is that when you've got a system that operates
and impacts differently on people from one background to another,
not because of anyone's intention, not because of you know,
(12:17):
people wanting to go out and be you know, discriminatory
against one group, but because a system is set up
that impacts inequitably on one group of people. That's something
we need to address here in the Northern Territory. We
have the most imprisoned, the highest imprisonment rate of Indigenous
people in the world. We have, you know, as I said,
(12:39):
almost you know, sometimes one hundred percent of our young
people who are locked up are Aboriginal. Eighty percent of
people in the prison system are Aboriginal. Something is going
wrong there and we need to look at it. I
don't think we need to get caught up in language
which is really inflammatory and difficult for people to hear
what's actually underneath it. I think we should welcome saying hotual,
(13:00):
let's look at this whole picture. This is not something
that any of us can You know, well many people
that I think I expect you don't think is acceptable.
It doesn't mean that we don't want a safe community.
It doesn't mean that we don't want to be tough
on crime, but it does mean we need to actually
look at what's happening here and address address the reasons
why it's happening and fix them up.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Justine, we are going to have to leave it there.
Really appreciate your time as always, good to chat with you.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Thanks Katie, thank you you too.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
That is Justine Davisse, the Independent member for Johnston
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.