Justice Reform Initiative Executive Director Mindy Sotiri says the evidence shows harsher penalties and imprisonment will do nothing to reduce crime, adding that some diversion models have lessened involvement with the justice system by around 60 per cent after the CLP announced diversion is no longer an option for 13 serious offences

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now on Friday, the Northern Territory Government announce the crackdown
on youth crime, expanding the list of offenses for which
youth must be sent to court, including driving stolen cars,
hit and runs, breakings, serious harm, offending and assaults on
frontline workers. Youth charged with those crimes will no longer

(00:20):
be eligible for youth diversion. While the announcement's been welcomed
by many victims of crime, Justice Reform Initiative Executive Director
Sotiri has told The Northern Territory News that she believes
the COLP is putting politics above evidence based policy. Now,
Justice Reform Initiative Executive Director Mindy so Tiri joins me

(00:44):
on the line. Good morning to.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
You, Mindy, Good morning Katie.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Lovely to have you on the show. Now. On Friday,
we know the Northern Territory Government announced this crackdown on
youth crime. It expands the list of offenses for which
youth must be sent to court. Do you think this
is a step in the right or wrong direction.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Look, it's a step in the wrong direction. And the
reason for that is, of course we need to take
crime seriously and of course people who commit crime should
be held accountable for their actions, and of course communities
should feel safe, and all communities have the right to
feel safe. But what the evidence actually shows us is
that the threat of harsher penalties will do absolutely nothing

(01:29):
to reduce crime. And we also know that the use
of imprisonment will do nothing to reduce crime. So the
evidence is very clear that threatening longer or tougher sentences,
removing the tension of the large resort, introducing more restrictive
bail laws, none of those things keep the community safe.
And that's because none of those measures actually address the

(01:52):
causes of crime. And it also is the case because
any contact with the justice system is a risk factor,
that is, it increases the likelihood of offending, it increases
the likelihood of ongoing criminal justice system involvement. So we
know we can't imprison our way to a safer community.

(02:12):
We have to look at what the evidence says actually
does make a difference.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
So, Mindy, when you talk about diversion, what are some
of the programs that youth might undertake, some of the
things that may work better.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, there's a whole range of different kinds of diversion,
So there's lots of research, for instance, about pre charge
diversion models which use alternative police and alternative first responder models,
and some of those around Australia have been found to
lessen the likelihood of ongoing justice system involvement by close
to sixty percent. There's pre charge as sorry this diversionary

(02:47):
processes at the point of court which can reduce contact
with the system. So in again and some jurisdictions in
Australia where there are alternative court models that divert kids
and adults, you see offending rates twenty five percent lower
than mainstream courts. There's a whole range of different diversion
programs at different touch points in the criminal justice system trajectory,

(03:12):
all of which, when they are properly resourced and properly
run and properly implemented, make a significant difference. The problem
that we've got in the Northern Territory and in lots
of places around Australia is we are spending billions of dollars,
more than seven billion dollars a year locking up adults
and kids around Australia on imprisonment which we know doesn't work,

(03:33):
and almost nothing on the kinds of programs that actually
have an evidence base albeit at a small scale at
this stage.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Are there any successful programs operating in the Northern Territory
at the moment?

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah. Absolutely. We've actually outlined a bunch of those in
one of our reports, which is on our website, which
has called Alternatives to Incarceration in the Northern Territory, and
we point to a number of those, especially First Nations
community led programs, that are really making a difference. But
again often that is operating at a very small scale,
so it's not available to everybody who comes into contact

(04:09):
with the justice system. So what the Justice Reform Initiative
is saying, we recommended a three hundred million dollar investment
in the kinds of programs that work over four years,
because what we really need to see is a flip
in these policy settings so that we're investing and spending
much more money on the things that actually work rather
than on the failed prison respond And I guess that

(04:32):
what we can see in the Northern Territory is this
very politicized approach where of course both major parties compete
to see who can sound the toughest on crime, but
none of that actually works. If that works, the Northern
Territory would be one of the safest places in the world,
and certainly in Australia, because the Northern Territory incarcerrates at
a higher rate than anywhere else in Australia and in

(04:54):
fact is one of the highest incarcerators in the world.
If it worked, it would be incredibly so and sleally
that is not the case.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
So I guess, mindy, because what we've seen obviously over
the last eight years is the former government had said
that they were wanting that generational change. They had pointed
to two different programs. They had said that really that
was their goal. But we've seen a real deterioration when
it comes to crime in the Northern Territory over the
last eight to ten years. With I think, you know,

(05:24):
across the board, people are well intentioned, but what we've
seen is a real deterioration. And unfortunately, you know, for
a lot of people that listen to this show, some
of the behavior undertaken by youths hasn't sort of just
been you know, low level crime like we've seen some
really horrendous stuff.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah. Absolutely, and again I would never want to minimize
that the reality of what it is like, especially for
victims of crime, and we do need to take it
very seriously, and I think that there have been some
really valiant attempts on all sides of politics to try
and to try and create safer communities. We have not
seen the targeted resourcing that is required. We also know

(06:08):
that the federal government has a role to play in this.
We know that the federal government needs to actually come
to the table when it comes to addressing those drivers
of why it is that people go to prison, because
it's not just about crime. It's around housing, it's around
alcohol and other drug use. We know that the vast
majority of children who end up in the prison system
actually have some form of disability, so it's about addressing

(06:31):
the disabilities. Again, none of this should be seen as
being soft on crime. This is just about being very
clear eyed about what is actually required if we want
to build safer communities, we can't keep relying on the
thing that has not worked, which is locking people up
and threatening harsher penalties. It's a form of insanity to

(06:53):
keep doing the same thing again and again and expecting
a different kind of consequence. We know it doesn't work.
There's a real opppportunity to the Northern Territory at this
moment in time to look at what the evidence actually.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
Says Mindy, an anonymous parent getting in contact with us
this morning, saying, Katie, we had a thirteen year old
family member caught in a break and entry and was
put on youth diversion. It was nothing, Absolutely nothing happened,
not a thing. Youth diversion has been an epic failure,
says that message. I mean, why, like, this isn't the

(07:28):
first time I've heard this from families that really have
a will to try and get their kids on the
right track, and they're actually saying, well, they're not able to.
And quite often I've been told that the only time
that there is sort of programs available is once they
are incarcerated.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, and look I've heard that around Australia as well.
So the problem is that we need to resource and
we need to properly run youth diversion programs. So it's
tragic when they don't rate in the way they should.
But it certainly is not a valid option to look

(08:05):
at prison as if that's going to be the place
which is going to rehabilitate. We know that in Australia
eighty five percent of kids that walk out the prison
gates today are going to return within twelve months. That's
of sentenced kids. It's even higher of kids that are
sort of cycling through on remand we know that doesn't work.
We need to really look at what does work in

(08:27):
the community. And like I said, there are lots of
examples of things in Australia that really make a difference,
but they are funded often on the smell of loily rags.
So we need to really get our policy settings set
up in such a way that rather than say that
early intervention and prevention programs that we know can reduce
crime at a population level by up to fifty percent,

(08:50):
but that are not being funded. We need to really
get all of our leaders on all sides of politics
to get behind what the evidence says. We know that
the threat of harsher penalties isn't going to work. We
know that prison isn't going to work. We know that
the way that people commit crime is not usually done
in a very rational way. So kids aren't weighing up

(09:10):
the consequences. They're not thinking, Oh, of the CLP's changed
the legislation and the regulation, so I'm not going to
steal a car. That is not how crime is committed.
We need to look at what's happening developmentally for kids.
We need to look at what's happening in terms of
their brains, executive functioning. We need to and again this
is not to be soft on crime. This is just

(09:31):
to look at what actually the evidence says is going
to work.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Mindy, there's a lot of people messaging this morning. We
do have a lot of people that are victims of
crime that listen to this show. As I said earlier,
some of them are victims of pretty horrific incidents of
crime as well. I mean, what do you say to
those people listening this morning that are going, oh, come on,
this softly, softly approach is not going to work.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah. Look, I absolutely get the frustration, and I have
to say, in my role, I speak to a lot
of victims of crime about the work that we're doing.
And one of the things that I hear regularly from
victims is that they do not want what has happened
to them to happen to anybody else. And that is
a scene that is consistent you know, through many of
the victims that I speak to, many of the victims

(10:18):
groups I've had contact with. We need to take crime seriously.
But we also need to look at the fact that
eighty five percent of people that go to prison go
on to reoffend. Something isn't working. We need to look
at what is working in the community, and that is
about taking crime seriously.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Mindy. I really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you
for giving us a different perspective.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Thanks so much for your time, Ken, Thank you appreciate it.