Kara Joyce speaks out about what her brother Shaun went through as a contractor working on the NT Health Acacia IT project before his sudden death and hopes there will be urgent change to address a terrible workplace culture

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well.

Speaker 2 (00:00):
It is a heartbreaking story which Matt Cunningham broke on
Friday that shocked many across the Northern Territory. A contractor
working on the Northern Territory government's troubled Acacia IT project
was reportedly subjected to bullying and harassment in the workplace
before his sudden death last month. Now, Sean Joyce's family

(00:21):
say that he was trying to lead a team that
was constantly overworked and burnt out in the months before
he died as they tried to implement the three hundred
and twenty one million dollar IT system in NT hospitals
that was running several years over time and tens of
millions of dollars over budget. But his attempts to warn

(00:42):
his superiors about the devastating impacts of their demands fell
on deaf. Years now, his sister, Kara Joyce is now
bravely speaking out, calling for answers and some change in
the work in the workplace following her brother using away. Now,
Caara joins me on the line right now. Good morning

(01:04):
to Kara.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Good morning Katie.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
I just want to firstly start by saying how sorry
I am for your loss and you know, thank you
for bravely coming on the show this morning.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
Well, thank you for that, Caara.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Can you tell me a bit more about your brother
and what kind of person he was, Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Sure, Sean was quite quietly spoken, gentle and kind. He
also understood what it meant to be a leader. He
understood his responsibility to people and that it was the
people doing the work. And it's been quite lovely to
hear the stories of people coming forward about Sean and

(01:47):
how he helped them, not just in the workplace but
outside of the workplace, and there's been a consistent narrative
that he gave them his time and he understood them
and understood that in doing that he would get the
best out of people. And he did it because he
was a kind person. Dahn was his home. He moved

(02:11):
there into the twenty nineteen and he wanted to stay.
So you know what he was doing, he knew it
was important.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Kara, you've described his experience on the Acacia project as
absolute hell. Can you help us understand what he was
going through on a day to day basis?

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Sure, As I said, Sean's work was really important to him.
So it was a major part of his life and
the culture in the workplace doesn't invite the healthy challenging
of ideas. Nepotism's led to a lot of people being
promoted way beyond the skill set, and this means that
complex problems are often oversimplified and anyone that questions them

(02:53):
is pushed out, and this often happened to Sean. Another
dimension that added some complication was that Sean had entered
into a relationship with a person in.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
The workplace a few years ago.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
And I have no issues with this there we're consenting adults,
but the relationship with witness to be quite controlling outside
of the workplace, and this billed into the workplace. I
have heard stories of and Sean did report back to
me that if female staff were seen in his office,
he would be berated by a variety of mediums. And

(03:30):
it became even more problematic when this relationships out and ended,
because the behavior is what I can only describe is abusive.
And this occurred in the workplace during work hours, and
I believe that there is an obligation, a legal obligation
on the senior leaders to address this, and this wasn't done,

(03:52):
and in fact, some of the senior leaders participated in
the charade and I have questions, my family have questions
that if the genders were reversed in this situation, would
we be so easily dismissing it, or would we name
it for what it was.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Can you shed some light on his treatment in the workplace.
I mean you've touched on some of it there and
some of the concerns, but I mean tell us a
little bit more about being some of the demands placed
upon him and others if you're able to, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Sure, so.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
There are a lot of good people on the project,
but often it was left to the capable people to
shoulder the majority of work. As I said, Sean cared
for people. So if he recognized other people were being
burnt out, people with families with small children, he had

(04:47):
a huge breadth of skill set and he would step
up and he would carry that. And he did raise
issues about burnout for other stuff. But it was quite
obvious to all of us that he was taking on
a lot of work and that was never managed at all.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Do you believe what happened to your brother is a
symptom of bigger problems here?

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Absolutely? Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
I don't think that Sean is the first person that
this has happened to I just think that he is
the latest. I do believe that the program have a
long history of just moving the problem along, pushing people out, intimidating,
and that needs to be addressed.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Did Sean ever feel supported or safe enough to report
what was happening? And I mean it doesn't sound as
though he did, But I mean, would others feel safe
enough to be able to speak up? I guess is
what I'm getting to as well.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
I mean, I can't speak on behalf of others, but
Sean and I did have conversations, and the problem was
was who do you go through when you are in
a senior role like that? Who's going to listen? And
previous attempts to escalate had fallen on deaf years. So
if someone in a senior position is feeling like that,
I can only imagine what it must feel like for

(06:13):
the workers.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
CARAA, why have you decided to speak out? I mean,
to me, it is clear that it is the love
that you've got for your brother, the connection that you've
got for your brother, and not wanting to see somebody
else go through this.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
That's exactly right. So our family understand that the Shan's
gone he's not coming back, but we keep asking the
question that if nothing is done, who's going to be next?
So we're hoping that in speaking out we can have
a bit of transparency, as it's critical in addressing the
issues that not only magnified Shaun's distress but also enabled.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
A culture of poor behavior that's.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
Been able to persist for far too long with the
onus on the victims to remove themselves from the situation.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
This system has been plagued with issues right from the
get go. But in light of what has happened in
your family's situation, and in light of the issues that
continue to seem to happen, what changes do you want
to see here?

Speaker 3 (07:19):
So I do believe there needs to be a cultural overhaul,
and I understand that that's a really challenging, complex thing
to do. However, I think it starts with leaders that
have a history in actually understanding modern day organizational psychology

(07:39):
and how that can be implemented in a way to
get the best out of workers and to keep people safe.
Because this project is really important for all territorians, and
it's not just because of the sunken costs, because at
its core, the idea of a unified system is going
to improve the health outcomes, quality of life and contribute
to a sustainable health system, but it shouldn't come at

(08:02):
the cost of people.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, do you know or do you have any idea
what kind of investigation is now underway or if there
is sort of further you know, internal inquiries happening at
the moment as a result of your brother's loss, and
you know the impact that is had on staff as
they try to deliver what you have described is a

(08:24):
really important system.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
Absolutely, I'm aware that there is an investigation. I don't
have any insight as to what it involves, and I
don't really have any updates, but we're really hopeful that
whatever is occurring is comprehensive and yield not only answers
for my family, but also long lasting results for the workplace.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
I understand that the Parliamentary Accounts Committee is going to
be looking into the acacia it system. My understanding is
that they'll be looking into it, you know, from the
perspective of how long it is taking to get up
and running and the cost. But do you think that
needs also that the Parliamentary Accounts Committee need to look
at your brother's situation and what's happened here.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
I actually think it's bigger. I love my brother, but
it's bigger than Sean. I think that they need to
look at the culture that led to his distress, because
it's probably also behind why the program has an inability
to implement and squander.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
Tax paid dollars.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
I think that they will find that it is a
big cultural problem.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
A lack of capability.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
It does not matter how amazing the product is that
you're implementing. If you don't do it well and you
don't have the right people, it's not going to work.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Kara, what change do you want to see from the
Northern Territory government and the agency involved, and what do
you hope comes from your decision to really bravely speak out.

Speaker 3 (09:54):
I want them to understand that the people doing the
work matter, that they are the ones that get things done.
And I want to see more protections for workers, more
respectful workers, and a culture where having robust conversation isn't demonized,
but it's encouraged that we understand that that's what leads

(10:15):
to collaboration, what leads to efficient, effective use of tax
payer dollars.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Kara, I really appreciate you speaking to us this morning.
I appreciate you giving territorians some further insight into what
is going on, but I you knows as a woman
with brothers myself who I love dearly, I appreciate you
and you having the honesty and the bravery to be

(10:40):
able to speak so beautifully about your brother and speak
up for your brother.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Thank you, Katie, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Thank you, Thanks so much for your time today.