Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
As we've spoken about quite extensively over the last couple
of days, we know that there was a deliberate act
of vandalism caused by six youth detainees age between thirteen
and seventeen at the New Youth Detention Center. That damage
causing what is estimated to be around well two hundred
thousand dollars worth of damage now in each case. From
(00:21):
what we've been told, the rooms were damaged in just
under thirty minutes in intervals between officers routine checks. These
rooms are now inoperable while the urgent repairs are undertaken.
Now joining me on the show and in the studio
is the Northern Territory Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley. Good morning
to you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Good morning, Katie, Thanks.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So much for your time this morning now, Commissioner. First off,
where are things at in terms of that damage.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Well, the damage is being assessed and repaired, and we've
had our folks with the Department of Infrastructure in there
obviously straight away. Some of those minor repairs have been made,
some of the sinks have been removed, we're replacing those,
and some of the rooms are now back online, although
temporarily whilst we continue to do a little bit of
that extra work. So in some rooms we've put the
(01:09):
young people back in there. Some of the obviously panels
and remote controls aren't working and their TV doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
But bad luck.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Unfortunately we've got the kids back in there, but we
still have to do some more deeper repairs to repair
some of the wiring and the other electronic systems.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You must have been pierced off when you realized what.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Had happened, Katie.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
We've had a fab couple of weeks, haven't we, really,
I guess at the end of the day, yeah, I'm frustrated.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
We've got a.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Lot of pressures on the correctional system, a lot of
pressures on the justice system, and our folks turn.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Up to work every day doing a bloody good job.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I was out at the detention center a few times
actually in the last week or two, and again early
in the week spoke to the staff. We had a
barbecue breakfast. The staff have done a cracker of a
job getting that facility ready and transitioning young people. And
then I guess Thursday, I flew to Alice Springs and
I went and visited our youth justice folks and our
(02:07):
prison folks down in Alice, and I got the phone
call that the rooms have been trashed, and you know,
you just kind of get really frustrated with this because
you're trying to do the right thing. Our staff are
trying to work as hard as they can on the
right environment. This is a facility that is a brand
new design youth justice facility, and to have it trashed
within the first couple of weeks, a couple of days really,
(02:28):
but even more disturbingly from what I understand, Katie, you know,
the young people swapping notes on how they did it
and how to tackle the next room.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
So you're joking.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I'm not joking, And this is the kind of this
is kind of frustrating behavior our staff deal with.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
So you know, we have what do you mean, they're
literally passing on information to their mates in the next
to that moment.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, they're talking about, as I understand, the vulnerabilities they've
found on Wednesday night, and of course Thursday night, we
have a couple.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Of repeats, so you know, and I've asked.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Questions around how they've managed to do some of this stuff.
It's a sequence of events, Katie. They find a particular
screw in a panel of electronics, and they use their
toothbrush to reverse that screw out, and then they use
the screw to chip away at the render, and then
they use a bedsheet to get behind the electronic panel
and pull off the wall, and then they use the
panel to smash the basin. And this all happens really quickly,
(03:18):
and you kind of wonder, well, how the bloody hell
do they work that out?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
First of all?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
And secondly, you know, how is the building fabric not
being designed and built to an effect that sorts that
problem out. Now we're looking into that, and of course,
you know this is a long term project that's been
underway for a while. Obviously I'm frustrated as to how
the building is like that, but we'll work through it
and we'll fix it.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
People are absolutely scratching their hits, I think, wondering, you know,
how it is like that, how they are in a
situation where they're able to do that and find those vulnerabilities.
But then a lot of people questioning how the guards
or the staff they didn't notice what was going on either.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So when you go out to the new for it holds,
it's a really big facility it's been designed with a
number of accommodation blocks right around I guess a big
sports overall, and our officers walk from block to block
to do these inspections, and overnight between seven pm and
seven am, when the young people are locked in their rooms,
we do routine inspections.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
And what I understand has.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Occurred is during the cycle of those inspections, the children
know where the gaps are and have worked out the
time period. So we're going to change that process and
we're going to make those inspections more random. And we
have CCTV, for example, in some of those rooms. Now
my understanding is that that's switched off at night, and
we're going to again have a look at why that is.
(04:39):
I think something to do with the privacy of the
young people in the rooms under a past system.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
And again I've asked.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
For those sorts of things to be reviewed and advice
provided to me about how we can tighten up those pressures. Sorry,
those procedures. But I guess the thing is, this is
a detention facility. It needs to be run with a
degree of custody and control and security, and that's exactly
what we'll work on. Part of corrections and youth justice
coming together.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So what's happened now with the offenders? They were identified immediately.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, of course, and as soon as the officers realize
what's gone on, you know, those young people are removed
and secured in a different room and those sorts of things.
But we now report those matters to the police. The
police conduct an investigation, and of course, should they have
enough evidence, then I guess they'll press charges in relation
to that criminal damage. But then, of course we have
(05:30):
other structural behavior programs in the Youth Justice Center, and
that can involve losses of privileges. It is a different
program of design than an adult corrections facility, and the
way in which young people are managed is different from
an adult prison.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
But again, so what might.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
They have taken off them not be allowed to watch
a TV? I think people are actually going to be
surprised to hear they've got TVs in their rooms.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
To be honest, well, every bedroom has a television in it,
and look in fairness, not uncommon with adult prisons as well, right,
and we provide books and reading material. The TVs can
be controlled remotely. But there's a cycle in the youth
justice system. As I understand that a young person can
earn their progression through that system through good behavior, not
(06:17):
dissimilar to an adult system where you can improve your
security classification by good behavior. But of course the way
in which those incentives are structured. You know, we're bound
by procedure and we're bound by law. I'm going to
have a look at how that works and to see
whether there's anything else we can do to improve the
way in which you know, privileges can be either attracted
(06:38):
or removed based on behavior. But I also think it's
about understanding what else we can do to support our
yjo is, our staff YEP who are responding to these incidents,
you know, giving them the tools.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
And I want to talk about that because, as I
understand it, there was a couple of assaults last week.
A youth detainee allegedly assaulted to Youth Justice officers last Tuesday,
viking one with a broom before punching both in the face.
At the other Springs Detention center, that detainee is further
alleged to have them spat in the face of two officers.
(07:10):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
That's correct?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
What happens after something like that goes.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
On, Well, firstly, they're restrained and they were dealt with appropriately,
and then of course they're separated for a period of time.
But again the law as it currently stands, requires us
to only separate that person, i e. Put them in
confinement in a room for as long as it takes
to de escalate their behavior, and as soon as that
(07:37):
behavior is de escalated, they're allowed back out.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And this is part of the law in the Youth
Justice Act.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
And of course what that means is our yjos are
working hard to make sure they're engaging with the young person,
they're de escalating them, they're managing their behaviors. Aside from
the assault chargers, Katie, and aside from repercussions at court
later on removing some of those privileges. It's a constant
(08:02):
dance inside those centers every day to manage those young
children's behavior. Now here's the cracker, right, every so often
you get some of these kids that are really high
needs and high maintenance and high risk. Those two primary
young people involved in those incidents in Alice Springs were
the same two that escaped the other week, so brought
back to custody, put into detension.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So hang on, let me just get that straight. So
the two that escaped just the other week, they are
the same too. That then were involved in another incident
where two youth detainees allegedly attacked a senior Youth Justice
officer at the Alla Springs Detention Center. One of those
detainees allegedly bit that Youth Justice officer twice.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, that's correct. In the second incident. So that was
one of our senior officers. And I won't name him,
but he's quite a senior officer in Alice Springs, very
well respected, experienced, like a decade plus more, Katie and YJ.
And he was counseling one of these young people. So
you asked the question around, you know, what do we do?
He was sitting down and talking through this young person's behavior.
(09:08):
The young person erupted, a struggle ensued, and during his
attempt to restrain that young person, he gets spat in
the face a few times and bitten on the torso.
And I've seen the injury and it broke skin. And
now that officer has to undergo obviously infectious disease testing. Right,
So the poor bloke is doing his job to try
(09:28):
and counsel these kids and he gets bitten.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
None of our officers should encounter that behavior.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
But it goes to show you the risks that our
yjstaff are dealing with every day.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Wow. I mean like that's a lot. People are going
to be listening to that this morning going wow, their
mind boggles. And I understand and totally get that. There
was obviously a royal commission a number of years ago
and there were certain things that maybe needed to be
changed and modified. But I feel quite concerned then when
you think about the safety now of people within the
those youth justice facilities.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Yeah, well their safety is obviously my concern too, right,
And that's why I was down there. Well, I was
in both youth justice facilities last week with my senior
folks talking to the staff, and I've got to say,
you know, they're encouraged by the work that we're doing
to sort of review and look at the way in
which we can improve their circumstances. They do a great job,
(10:23):
you know, but are there things that I can do
as Corrections Commissioner to help support them on the front line,
And are we looking at things like, you know, additional
training that we can learn from adult corrections about how
to open a door properly, or how to work through,
you know, an emergency response, how to bring back protective
equipment so that our officers can wear it. You know,
(10:43):
even down to things like do I need to consider
body worn cameras in a youth justice setting? Now we
have those in adults, we don't have them in youth.
There's things that I want to look at. But most importantly,
you know, I want our staff to be safe, and
I want our staff to have the tools and the
training they need to look after themselves.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
It sounds like it's actually been quite a big transition
going back from being managed by territory families to now
falling back under corrections.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Well eight weeks in Katie, and you know, we've achieved
a lot in that eight weeks and our staff have
managed I mean, let's not forget we closed don Dale
for young people.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
That's been a long time coming.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
We've moved the young people to the new center, and
now these incidents happened. We'll respond to it, and we'll
learn from it and we'll make adaptions. Of course, that
also brings with it some of those other Domino pieces
to work on the corrections that old master plan. Yep,
but there is an opportunity. I think as part of
corrections in YJ coming together that we look at how
(11:43):
can we make sure that we swing that pendulum.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
To the place where it needs to be.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
And I don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past,
and I certainly don't want to end up in another
Royal commission, but I think there are things that I
can do to make sure our offices are safer and
better trained and more able to respond onto some of
these incidents like we saw last week.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Where do you think that pendulum needs to swing to?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Well, I guess, for example, you know when we enter
into rooms, our officers have not been able to, for example,
in recent years, enter into a room and restrain a
young person when they're causing this damage. That's been part
of policy and training and it's something I'm looking at
very closely and.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
A lot I have to do.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Just watch, well, we wait, We've waited, I should say,
until such time as the incident de escalates and the
young person's self regulated their behavior and we negotiate. Right,
the last thing we want to do is cause harm
to a young person. But at the same time, there
are times when in a secure custodial environment, will need
(12:47):
to intervene, and I think that's some of the work
that I'll need to do to make sure my officers have,
you know, my backing, to make sure that they can
do that job when they need to.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Commissioner is the problem when it comes to youth the
tension as well that we just don't have enough staff
or are you satisfied with the level of staffing that
you've got.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Well, look on the days of these incidents, we willfully
staffed out at Halts and we have more than one
hundred yjos on staff at Darwin, and I think I
can't remember in our springs. I'm going to say it's
somewhere between forty and fifty. But you know, we recruit
all the time. But I'm pretty happy with the way
the staff levels were those days. Now, that doesn't mean
(13:28):
that we take our eye off the ball, Katie, and
we don't keep recruiting and other things. But in relation
to these incidents, I think it's more about the process,
the procedure, the tools and track tactics that we need
to look at to make sure we can intervene in
these incidents.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So, by the sounds of everything's on the table at
this point in time for you guys in terms of reviewing,
reviewing what's gone on and hey, you could do things differently.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah, well that's exactly what the Chief Minister and the
Minister for Corrections have said to me is take a
look at this and work with the YJA staff to
see how else we can help. He's asked me, Minster
Malee has asked me to do a review of the
policy and procedure that impacted on these incidents of damage
and if there are things that I need to do
differently and rewrite policy, I will.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yep, all right now in terms of the bigger picture, right.
So obviously this new youth detention center was a huge
part of this jigsaw puzzle in terms of moving children
or young people into that detention center, moving them out,
or Valice Springs at some point in time being able
to move your senior or your older prisoners into those
other facilities. Where are things.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
At, Well, the jigsaw puzzle is still moving and as
you said, closure of don Dale and the relocation of
the young people was step one. We are already well,
we're well advanced on the works at Berrima to turn
that into a men's prison. I've got contractors and tradees
in there almost twenty four hours a day. I think
actually we're almost completed on the renovations of Block number one,
(14:55):
and I expect the second block, well, the second block started,
and we'll have that work underway into early December. I'm
hoping and still targeting that we'll have the first fifty
odd men into the Barrimer facility by the first week
of December, and then I hope to have a second
tranch of fifty odd men in there before Christmas. So
that's working really hard and we're working around the clock
(15:16):
to make that happen. We're having architectural design meetings on
the new work camps, and I think that's happening today
around Holts and other locations. We've also got the construction
works being progressed rapidly down in Alice Springs for those
new modulus that are due online in January. But the
emergency response that we had I think a week and
a half ago that you remember, we've moved prisoners out
(15:40):
of watchhouses and we've relocated other prisoners around.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
We have the women up here.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
In Holts, We've backfilled the men into the old women's
block in Alice Springs. I think we've got about forty
men in there now already, So that's done.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
So those prisoners out of the watch houses now, right,
everyone's moved out.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Nope, the police keep filling them up.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Okay, So the police have still got their prisoners in
the watchtown.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
We've still got our prisoners in the watchhouse too, So
I moved some out and then a few fresh ones
come back straight in Katie. But we've got less in
there than we did. And so you might remember when
we last spoke, I think Palmerston, when I activated the
emergency response, we were well over ninety corrections prisoners crowded
into Palmerston. I think today we've got about fifty six.
(16:26):
And in Alice Springs, I think we were down well,
we got down.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
To four or five last week.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
We're back up to thirteen in Alice Springs today and
that's fluctuating a bit depending on police activity.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
But some relief has happened.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
That relief has transferred in the watchhouses to pressure in
the main correctional facilities, and I want to recognize our
staff who have stepped up to the challenge on that
and we're working to make sure that we can facilitate
those extra prisoners in the prisons. It's not easy, and
our staff are focused on safe staffing for those blocks
and we're doing whatever we can work with unions on that.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So where are things out at this point? Is it
looking as though correction stuff are no longer going to strike?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I hope not, Katie.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
You know we were engaged in two full days of
negotiations with unions last week at the Fair Work Commission.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
How did that go? Look?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Productively?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
The unions raise a series of concerns about safe staffing numbers,
and I can say that you know, we've made progress
there and we're continuing to have out of session meetings.
I think we're due back in Fair Work later this week.
The disputes haven't been resolved, but I guess at the
end of the day, we're working collaboratively through that, you
know that problem, and what I'm hoping is we can
(17:40):
make it across the finish line to BERRIMA.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Okay, just a couple of quick ones. How many prisoners
have you currently gosh in all of your facilities at
the moment you're adult correctional facilities.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yep, today Katie, two three hundred and seventy is that
up on what.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
It was when you're an emergency or around the same.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
The same hasn't changed a lot.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
I think we've been bubbling around that twenty three seventy
twenty three eighty number for about a week and a half.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Now, Now, what about in the youth justice facility?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I knew you were going to ask me that question, Katie.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
I think it's about today, it's about thirty nine, and
if I remember rightly, it's about twenty three in Holts
and sixteen in Alice Springs.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Now, in terms of those rooms being taken offline, how
does that sort of fear with those numbers, with the
twenty three in Holts, are you juggling at all? Okay?
If you had to take on any sort of additional measures.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
To deal with that, well, obviously the officers have taken
on a range of additional measures to manage those kids better.
But we have forty four bedrooms at Holts, and so
not all of those bedrooms are occupied yet. Obviously we're
leaving some of those for the later transition of the
Alice kids up when we'll do that in December, I think,
And some of those rooms have had some minor repairs
(18:55):
done and further to follow, so some of them are
being used now with those kids, but we're managing well.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Thanks so much for joining us and all the best
with that jigsaw puzzle. Thank you, Thanks so much,
As we've spoken about quite extensively over the last couple
of days, we know that there was a deliberate act
of vandalism caused by six youth detainees age between thirteen
and seventeen at the New Youth Detention Center. That damage
causing what is estimated to be around well two hundred
thousand dollars worth of damage now in each case. From
(00:21):
what we've been told, the rooms were damaged in just
under thirty minutes in intervals between officers routine checks. These
rooms are now inoperable while the urgent repairs are undertaken.
Now joining me on the show and in the studio
is the Northern Territory Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley. Good morning
to you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Good morning, Katie, Thanks.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So much for your time this morning now, Commissioner. First off,
where are things at in terms of that damage.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Well, the damage is being assessed and repaired, and we've
had our folks with the Department of Infrastructure in there
obviously straight away. Some of those minor repairs have been made,
some of the sinks have been removed, we're replacing those,
and some of the rooms are now back online, although
temporarily whilst we continue to do a little bit of
that extra work. So in some rooms we've put the
(01:09):
young people back in there. Some of the obviously panels
and remote controls aren't working and their TV doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
But bad luck.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Unfortunately we've got the kids back in there, but we
still have to do some more deeper repairs to repair
some of the wiring and the other electronic systems.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You must have been pierced off when you realized what.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Had happened, Katie.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
We've had a fab couple of weeks, haven't we, really,
I guess at the end of the day, yeah, I'm frustrated.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
We've got a.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Lot of pressures on the correctional system, a lot of
pressures on the justice system, and our folks turn.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Up to work every day doing a bloody good job.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I was out at the detention center a few times
actually in the last week or two, and again early
in the week spoke to the staff. We had a
barbecue breakfast. The staff have done a cracker of a
job getting that facility ready and transitioning young people. And
then I guess Thursday, I flew to Alice Springs and
I went and visited our youth justice folks and our
(02:07):
prison folks down in Alice, and I got the phone
call that the rooms have been trashed, and you know,
you just kind of get really frustrated with this because
you're trying to do the right thing. Our staff are
trying to work as hard as they can on the
right environment. This is a facility that is a brand
new design youth justice facility, and to have it trashed
within the first couple of weeks, a couple of days really,
(02:28):
but even more disturbingly from what I understand, Katie, you know,
the young people swapping notes on how they did it
and how to tackle the next room.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
So you're joking.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I'm not joking, And this is the kind of this
is kind of frustrating behavior our staff deal with.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
So you know, we have what do you mean, they're
literally passing on information to their mates in the next
to that moment.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, they're talking about, as I understand, the vulnerabilities they've
found on Wednesday night, and of course Thursday night, we
have a couple.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Of repeats, so you know, and I've asked.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Questions around how they've managed to do some of this stuff.
It's a sequence of events, Katie. They find a particular
screw in a panel of electronics, and they use their
toothbrush to reverse that screw out, and then they use
the screw to chip away at the render, and then
they use a bedsheet to get behind the electronic panel
and pull off the wall, and then they use the
panel to smash the basin. And this all happens really quickly,
(03:18):
and you kind of wonder, well, how the bloody hell
do they work that out?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
First of all?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
And secondly, you know, how is the building fabric not
being designed and built to an effect that sorts that
problem out. Now we're looking into that, and of course,
you know this is a long term project that's been
underway for a while. Obviously I'm frustrated as to how
the building is like that, but we'll work through it
and we'll fix it.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
People are absolutely scratching their hits, I think, wondering, you know,
how it is like that, how they are in a
situation where they're able to do that and find those vulnerabilities.
But then a lot of people questioning how the guards
or the staff they didn't notice what was going on either.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So when you go out to the new for it holds,
it's a really big facility it's been designed with a
number of accommodation blocks right around I guess a big
sports overall, and our officers walk from block to block
to do these inspections, and overnight between seven pm and
seven am, when the young people are locked in their rooms,
we do routine inspections.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
And what I understand has.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Occurred is during the cycle of those inspections, the children
know where the gaps are and have worked out the
time period. So we're going to change that process and
we're going to make those inspections more random. And we
have CCTV, for example, in some of those rooms. Now
my understanding is that that's switched off at night, and
we're going to again have a look at why that is.
(04:39):
I think something to do with the privacy of the
young people in the rooms under a past system.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
And again I've asked.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
For those sorts of things to be reviewed and advice
provided to me about how we can tighten up those pressures. Sorry,
those procedures. But I guess the thing is, this is
a detention facility. It needs to be run with a
degree of custody and control and security, and that's exactly
what we'll work on. Part of corrections and youth justice
coming together.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So what's happened now with the offenders? They were identified immediately.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, of course, and as soon as the officers realize
what's gone on, you know, those young people are removed
and secured in a different room and those sorts of things.
But we now report those matters to the police. The
police conduct an investigation, and of course, should they have
enough evidence, then I guess they'll press charges in relation
to that criminal damage. But then, of course we have
(05:30):
other structural behavior programs in the Youth Justice Center, and
that can involve losses of privileges. It is a different
program of design than an adult corrections facility, and the
way in which young people are managed is different from
an adult prison.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
But again, so what might.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
They have taken off them not be allowed to watch
a TV? I think people are actually going to be
surprised to hear they've got TVs in their rooms.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
To be honest, well, every bedroom has a television in it,
and look in fairness, not uncommon with adult prisons as well, right,
and we provide books and reading material. The TVs can
be controlled remotely. But there's a cycle in the youth
justice system. As I understand that a young person can
earn their progression through that system through good behavior, not
(06:17):
dissimilar to an adult system where you can improve your
security classification by good behavior. But of course the way
in which those incentives are structured. You know, we're bound
by procedure and we're bound by law. I'm going to
have a look at how that works and to see
whether there's anything else we can do to improve the
way in which you know, privileges can be either attracted
(06:38):
or removed based on behavior. But I also think it's
about understanding what else we can do to support our
yjo is, our staff YEP who are responding to these incidents,
you know, giving them the tools.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
And I want to talk about that because, as I
understand it, there was a couple of assaults last week.
A youth detainee allegedly assaulted to Youth Justice officers last Tuesday,
viking one with a broom before punching both in the face.
At the other Springs Detention center, that detainee is further
alleged to have them spat in the face of two officers.
(07:10):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
That's correct?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
What happens after something like that goes.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
On, Well, firstly, they're restrained and they were dealt with appropriately,
and then of course they're separated for a period of time.
But again the law as it currently stands, requires us
to only separate that person, i e. Put them in
confinement in a room for as long as it takes
to de escalate their behavior, and as soon as that
(07:37):
behavior is de escalated, they're allowed back out.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And this is part of the law in the Youth
Justice Act.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
And of course what that means is our yjos are
working hard to make sure they're engaging with the young person,
they're de escalating them, they're managing their behaviors. Aside from
the assault chargers, Katie, and aside from repercussions at court
later on removing some of those privileges. It's a constant
(08:02):
dance inside those centers every day to manage those young
children's behavior. Now here's the cracker, right, every so often
you get some of these kids that are really high
needs and high maintenance and high risk. Those two primary
young people involved in those incidents in Alice Springs were
the same two that escaped the other week, so brought
back to custody, put into detension.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So hang on, let me just get that straight. So
the two that escaped just the other week, they are
the same too. That then were involved in another incident
where two youth detainees allegedly attacked a senior Youth Justice
officer at the Alla Springs Detention Center. One of those
detainees allegedly bit that Youth Justice officer twice.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, that's correct. In the second incident. So that was
one of our senior officers. And I won't name him,
but he's quite a senior officer in Alice Springs, very
well respected, experienced, like a decade plus more, Katie and YJ.
And he was counseling one of these young people. So
you asked the question around, you know, what do we do?
He was sitting down and talking through this young person's behavior.
(09:08):
The young person erupted, a struggle ensued, and during his
attempt to restrain that young person, he gets spat in
the face a few times and bitten on the torso.
And I've seen the injury and it broke skin. And
now that officer has to undergo obviously infectious disease testing. Right,
So the poor bloke is doing his job to try
(09:28):
and counsel these kids and he gets bitten.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
None of our officers should encounter that behavior.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
But it goes to show you the risks that our
yjstaff are dealing with every day.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Wow. I mean like that's a lot. People are going
to be listening to that this morning going wow, their
mind boggles. And I understand and totally get that. There
was obviously a royal commission a number of years ago
and there were certain things that maybe needed to be
changed and modified. But I feel quite concerned then when
you think about the safety now of people within the
those youth justice facilities.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Yeah, well their safety is obviously my concern too, right,
And that's why I was down there. Well, I was
in both youth justice facilities last week with my senior
folks talking to the staff, and I've got to say,
you know, they're encouraged by the work that we're doing
to sort of review and look at the way in
which we can improve their circumstances. They do a great job,
(10:23):
you know, but are there things that I can do
as Corrections Commissioner to help support them on the front line,
And are we looking at things like, you know, additional
training that we can learn from adult corrections about how
to open a door properly, or how to work through,
you know, an emergency response, how to bring back protective
equipment so that our officers can wear it. You know,
(10:43):
even down to things like do I need to consider
body worn cameras in a youth justice setting? Now we
have those in adults, we don't have them in youth.
There's things that I want to look at. But most importantly,
you know, I want our staff to be safe, and
I want our staff to have the tools and the
training they need to look after themselves.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
It sounds like it's actually been quite a big transition
going back from being managed by territory families to now
falling back under corrections.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Well eight weeks in Katie, and you know, we've achieved
a lot in that eight weeks and our staff have
managed I mean, let's not forget we closed don Dale
for young people.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
That's been a long time coming.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
We've moved the young people to the new center, and
now these incidents happened. We'll respond to it, and we'll
learn from it and we'll make adaptions. Of course, that
also brings with it some of those other Domino pieces
to work on the corrections that old master plan. Yep,
but there is an opportunity. I think as part of
corrections in YJ coming together that we look at how
(11:43):
can we make sure that we swing that pendulum.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
To the place where it needs to be.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
And I don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past,
and I certainly don't want to end up in another
Royal commission, but I think there are things that I
can do to make sure our offices are safer and
better trained and more able to respond onto some of
these incidents like we saw last week.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Where do you think that pendulum needs to swing to?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Well, I guess, for example, you know when we enter
into rooms, our officers have not been able to, for example,
in recent years, enter into a room and restrain a
young person when they're causing this damage. That's been part
of policy and training and it's something I'm looking at
very closely and.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
A lot I have to do.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Just watch, well, we wait, We've waited, I should say,
until such time as the incident de escalates and the
young person's self regulated their behavior and we negotiate. Right,
the last thing we want to do is cause harm
to a young person. But at the same time, there
are times when in a secure custodial environment, will need
(12:47):
to intervene, and I think that's some of the work
that I'll need to do to make sure my officers have,
you know, my backing, to make sure that they can
do that job when they need to.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Commissioner is the problem when it comes to youth the
tension as well that we just don't have enough staff
or are you satisfied with the level of staffing that
you've got.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Well, look on the days of these incidents, we willfully
staffed out at Halts and we have more than one
hundred yjos on staff at Darwin, and I think I
can't remember in our springs. I'm going to say it's
somewhere between forty and fifty. But you know, we recruit
all the time. But I'm pretty happy with the way
the staff levels were those days. Now, that doesn't mean
(13:28):
that we take our eye off the ball, Katie, and
we don't keep recruiting and other things. But in relation
to these incidents, I think it's more about the process,
the procedure, the tools and track tactics that we need
to look at to make sure we can intervene in
these incidents.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So, by the sounds of everything's on the table at
this point in time for you guys in terms of reviewing,
reviewing what's gone on and hey, you could do things differently.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah, well that's exactly what the Chief Minister and the
Minister for Corrections have said to me is take a
look at this and work with the YJA staff to
see how else we can help. He's asked me, Minster
Malee has asked me to do a review of the
policy and procedure that impacted on these incidents of damage
and if there are things that I need to do
differently and rewrite policy, I will.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yep, all right now in terms of the bigger picture, right.
So obviously this new youth detention center was a huge
part of this jigsaw puzzle in terms of moving children
or young people into that detention center, moving them out,
or Valice Springs at some point in time being able
to move your senior or your older prisoners into those
other facilities. Where are things.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
At, Well, the jigsaw puzzle is still moving and as
you said, closure of don Dale and the relocation of
the young people was step one. We are already well,
we're well advanced on the works at Berrima to turn
that into a men's prison. I've got contractors and tradees
in there almost twenty four hours a day. I think
actually we're almost completed on the renovations of Block number one,
(14:55):
and I expect the second block, well, the second block started,
and we'll have that work underway into early December. I'm
hoping and still targeting that we'll have the first fifty
odd men into the Barrimer facility by the first week
of December, and then I hope to have a second
tranch of fifty odd men in there before Christmas. So
that's working really hard and we're working around the clock
(15:16):
to make that happen. We're having architectural design meetings on
the new work camps, and I think that's happening today
around Holts and other locations. We've also got the construction
works being progressed rapidly down in Alice Springs for those
new modulus that are due online in January. But the
emergency response that we had I think a week and
a half ago that you remember, we've moved prisoners out
(15:40):
of watchhouses and we've relocated other prisoners around.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
We have the women up here.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
In Holts, We've backfilled the men into the old women's
block in Alice Springs. I think we've got about forty
men in there now already, So that's done.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
So those prisoners out of the watch houses now, right,
everyone's moved out.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Nope, the police keep filling them up.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Okay, So the police have still got their prisoners in
the watchtown.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
We've still got our prisoners in the watchhouse too, So
I moved some out and then a few fresh ones
come back straight in Katie. But we've got less in
there than we did. And so you might remember when
we last spoke, I think Palmerston, when I activated the
emergency response, we were well over ninety corrections prisoners crowded
into Palmerston. I think today we've got about fifty six.
(16:26):
And in Alice Springs, I think we were down well,
we got down.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
To four or five last week.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
We're back up to thirteen in Alice Springs today and
that's fluctuating a bit depending on police activity.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
But some relief has happened.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
That relief has transferred in the watchhouses to pressure in
the main correctional facilities, and I want to recognize our
staff who have stepped up to the challenge on that
and we're working to make sure that we can facilitate
those extra prisoners in the prisons. It's not easy, and
our staff are focused on safe staffing for those blocks
and we're doing whatever we can work with unions on that.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So where are things out at this point? Is it
looking as though correction stuff are no longer going to strike?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I hope not, Katie.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
You know we were engaged in two full days of
negotiations with unions last week at the Fair Work Commission.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
How did that go? Look?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Productively?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
The unions raise a series of concerns about safe staffing numbers,
and I can say that you know, we've made progress
there and we're continuing to have out of session meetings.
I think we're due back in Fair Work later this week.
The disputes haven't been resolved, but I guess at the
end of the day, we're working collaboratively through that, you
know that problem, and what I'm hoping is we can
(17:40):
make it across the finish line to BERRIMA.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Okay, just a couple of quick ones. How many prisoners
have you currently gosh in all of your facilities at
the moment you're adult correctional facilities.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yep, today Katie, two three hundred and seventy is that
up on what.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
It was when you're an emergency or around the same.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
The same hasn't changed a lot.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
I think we've been bubbling around that twenty three seventy
twenty three eighty number for about a week and a half.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Now, Now, what about in the youth justice facility?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I knew you were going to ask me that question, Katie.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
I think it's about today, it's about thirty nine, and
if I remember rightly, it's about twenty three in Holts
and sixteen in Alice Springs.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Now, in terms of those rooms being taken offline, how
does that sort of fear with those numbers, with the
twenty three in Holts, are you juggling at all? Okay?
If you had to take on any sort of additional measures.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
To deal with that, well, obviously the officers have taken
on a range of additional measures to manage those kids better.
But we have forty four bedrooms at Holts, and so
not all of those bedrooms are occupied yet. Obviously we're
leaving some of those for the later transition of the
Alice kids up when we'll do that in December, I think,
And some of those rooms have had some minor repairs
(18:55):
done and further to follow, so some of them are
being used now with those kids, but we're managing well.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Thanks so much for joining us and all the best
with that jigsaw puzzle. Thank you, Thanks so much,
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