Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now, yesterday we spoke to the Chief Minister about the
calls for an independent investigation into the death of a
twenty four year old man who was trying to steal
items from calls in Alice Springs last Tuesday afternoon. The
Northern Territory News was yesterday reporting further details about the
incident he was allegedly involved in on the street in
(00:20):
Alice Springs prior to his death, with witnesses telling the
paper that a woman was allegedly assaulted moments earlier by
the same man outside the Commonwealth Bank on Gregory Terrace
and was holding an infant baby when she was attacked.
Now joining me on the line is the Opposition leader
Selena Rubo. Good morning, Selena, Good morning Katy In.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Good morning to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Now, I understand you've been in Alice Springs over recent days.
What was the purpose of that trip and who did
you meet with?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, Katie, I've come back from Alice Springs. Is down
there obviously in light of the tragic death last week.
I know that the people of Alice Springs is the
Central Australia, have been feeling very heavy. There's still a
lot of shock in the community and the region around
the tragic death last week of the young man. So
just wanting to show my support from the opposition around
(01:14):
what are the areas of concern for community members. I
think one of the big takeaways I took from my
visit to Alice Springs is the amount of people who
want to be part of solutions to work on community safety.
They don't want finger pointing, they want to work together
and they want to see change for the better across
(01:35):
the region. So I took that away and I've got
some concerns and ideas that I'll be presenting to the
government on behalf of my team Katie. So looking forward
to trying to work in a bipartisan way because people
are very deeply sad and hurt in Central Australia around
this incident.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Are there any of those you know, any of those
concerns or any of those potential solutions that you're prepared
to highlight for us today.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, I think there's a lot to take in. Obviously
there's still sorry business occurring from the Aboriginal cultural way
as well. But I was able to meet with some
of the family members and some of the leaders from
the Wolpury communities who again express their desire for people
to come together to work on solutions, and you know,
(02:24):
there's a lot of leadership that is going through that
heaviness of sadness at the moment, So just wanting to
respect that the ideas that some of the Woldbury elders
have around what they want to see in their community,
but also for people who are in you know, in town,
in all the springs itself. You know, I'll leave that
to them to speak to the government about. But in
(02:45):
terms of community safety measures, Katie, I think there's been
a lot of ideas that probably need just that little
bit of extra support, and I'm you know, I'm sure
that there will be things that have been presented to
the government, but i just really want to make sure
again that I'm showing some bipartisan support and being able
to work with the government. So I'm looking forward to
(03:07):
being able to present those with government and hopefully working together.
And i think similar to the you know, the horrible
incident that top End experience just in recent weeks, people
really want to see politicians and decision makers working together,
and that's what I'm really going to be focused on.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
We've really got to sort through these issues that we're experiencing,
there's no other way to put it. I mean, the
whole of the Northern Territory is hurting, as you've touched on.
People of Central Australia obviously hurting as a result of
what's happened and all of the Northern Territory last week,
but then just a couple of weeks ago, you know,
the senseless loss of life of Linford Fike up here
(03:44):
in the top end. And you know, sadly these are
not the only incidents we've experienced. So I do think
there needs to be that approach. We do all need
to get our heads together and try and sort through this. Selena.
I know, obviously the police conducting an investigation into the
man's death and the circumstances and alleged crimes prior. Do
(04:07):
you think the police investigation is enough or do you
feel that there needs to be an external investigation as well.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah, Katie, particularly from the Alice Springs community, I think
I heard that through the visit under No. Senator Mulander
McCarthy for the Northern Territory last week spoke about calling
for an independent inquiry. The more I spoke with people
and leaders across the community and businesses yesterday in Alice Springs.
(04:34):
This is resonating and it's no disrespect, of course to
our hard working police. They absolutely do an incredible job
under some very difficult circumstances day in and day out,
and that's obviously for the benefit of all of us
to be safer across the Northern Territory and definitely they
deserve our full support. I think in the horrible circumstances
(04:56):
and tragedy of last week, I think more and more
around an independent inquiry makes sense. And it's also to
allow for the police to do their normal work, which is,
you know, the investigation that they would do anyway, but
in terms of you know, processes and what we've heard
from the young man's family around better processes across the territory,
(05:17):
I think that could be a helpful opportunity from such
a tragic event to look at the overall processes and
is there something we can learn through an independent process?
And then who would do that? I think would be
the next question, Katie.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I mean, wouldn't that usually happen through a police investigation
and then through a coronial?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, I think some of the conversations and not to say,
who said this to me, Katie, But instead of echoing
the wording that people expressed to me yesterday was you know,
we support our police, but we are concerned about police
investigating police. So you know, take that as you will.
That's just some echoing of the concerns that will express
(05:56):
directly to me in our springs and again around that
independent inquiry. It would allow police to continue on the
work that they're doing now, but also to provide an
opportunity for better processes and perhaps that is not sitting
with the police, it's from an independent inquiry process.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Just so you'd support that obviously, Yeah, I think I
support it, just based on those conversations and hearing from
people directly who are experiencing.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
The pressures in Alice Springs and Central Australian region, I
think more and more echoing what Mullander is called for,
I think that would make sense to allow again and
allow police for an avenue to be able to look
at things that could be done better in the region
and so that they get the full support that they
need for community safety as well.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I know that this morning on ABC News the Troll
University professor Chris Mayley had said that better supports are
needed for the Northern Territory Police when dealing with people
with disabilities, but also saying that those police are not
properly trained to respond to health crises or disability needs.
(07:05):
He'd said police shouldn't be the default response in these
types of situations, and it's not enough just to train
the police. There also has to be options for police
to divert people to Responding to mental health crisis or
responding to disability needs is not police work and we
really need to set up systems where people can get
(07:26):
the support they need when they need it. What do
you make of those comments?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I think those comments absolutely hit the nail on the
head as well, Katie, from reflections of the conversations I've
had in the last day from Alice Springs around the
incident and around the tragic death. So I think there's
definitely more work in that space, and I think that
lots of people have echoed those same those very comments
that are so I forgot who.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
You've just quoted, Professor Chris Mayley from Latrop University.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, absolutely, I heard that in many different ways. Everything
that the professor has said I've heard directly from the
r Springs community as well.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Now I know there is a full and thorough investigation
to be undertaken, but if I am to read, if
I'm you know, if I'm to understand what I've read
correctly the Northern Territory News yesterday reporting that this young
man was involved in an incident prior to the situation
that unfolded at Cole's where a mum holding her young
(08:29):
child was allegedly assaulted, and that the Kearra was then
there with that family following on from what had happened.
I mean, it seems to me like, you know, the
Kearra would have ordinarily been with this young person, but unfortunately,
due to what had happened prior, may have then been
there trying to assist that family.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, Katie, and I've obviously seen those reports, but of
course not going to comment in terms of the investigation
that police are doing currently. But I think it does
build into that bigger picture around you know, service provision
what you've quoted from the professor, around better systems, better
support processes and service delivery, and I think there's a
(09:12):
bigger conversation to be had around this as well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
All right, I do want to move along because there
is a bit to cover off on this morning, and
I want to ask you about a a national story.
It was yesterday being reported in the Australian newspaper that
Will Australia has been asked to lift defense spending to
three point five percent of GDP as soon as possible,
with that request being relayed directly from the US Defense
Secretary to the Deputy Prime Minister Richard Miles. Now, this
(09:38):
is a major increase on the current levels of defense
spending and would require the government to pour many tens
of billions of extra money into the defense budget. What
do you make of these discussions happening between the US
and Australia given our strategic importance but also our vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, Katie, this is an interesting one when you think
about some of the discussions of the international level around trade,
around the increases around tariff etc. And then now this
request that's come from, of course one of our closest
allies and being the United States of America. I think
in terms of Australia's spending and I've had to do
a little bit of research around this one for myself.
(10:19):
I've got the Shadow portfolio is around some of the
levels of spending that we currently have in Australia, and
I understand Katie that you know, some of the increases
we've seen from defense in you know, in recent times
in the country has been the biggest increases in peacetime
in Australia's history. So there is a lot of spending.
(10:39):
I know, people chuck around the dollars and what that means,
but in terms of you know, the Northern Territory and
North Australia and the Northern bases, you know, we take
top end of Queensland and across the Kimberley and of
course the fourteen to eighteen billion dollars just in Northern
bases spend across Australia, and I mean that's a great
(11:00):
opportunity for us here in the NT. Obviously you've mentioned
we're very strategically placed for our allies, but also in
terms of what that means for our local territory businesses.
You know, the defenses really change the way that they
package up their contracts to allow you know, local businesses
to tend to for that really important work, but also
to get the financial benefit in the regions. And we
(11:22):
take tindle Raft Base that's in my elector to Varnum,
billions and billions of dollars being spent there. So it'll
be really interesting to see where this conversation goes nationally
when it comes to Australia's security. But in terms of
the territory, I mean, we've got a really good story
to economically ben to continue to benefit economically here, but
(11:44):
to grow our businesses and to see that then going
back into the community. But not to say without the
pressures as well, Cad how you expense.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Are you worried at all about what it might mean
if we don't, like, if Australia doesn't sort of stump
up and and you know, spend a bit more like
the US has requested. Are you worried about what it
might mean for the Northern Territory given our location.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, it'd be very like again, you know, this is
very recent news in the last few days, but I
think it would be a very very important one for
us to watch here in the Northern Territory because of
that impact and because you know, the Darwin is the
gateway to Asia with some of our closest neighbors and
opportunities for tourism and trade and businesses with Southeast Asia.
(12:27):
We know that, and then how does that fit in
with our national alliance with our other partners in defense.
So it'll be really interesting to see where this goes.
I can't will you anything.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
We'll all be keeping a very close eye on it.
I think we'll all be keeping a very close eye, Selena.
Before I let you go this morning, a woman's in
a critical condition after being struck by a car at
Eton last night. About eight thirty last night, police received
reports of a female pedestrian running across Baggett Road near
Totem Road in Eton. The police alleged that the woman
(12:59):
poured in the median strip, making no attempt to check
for traffic before running out and being struck by a vehicle.
Saint John Well, they happen to have a passing paramedic
crew carrying another patient. They stopped to help the woman
who is in severe pain and suffering from multiple injuries.
But we've got a real issue at the moment in
terms of pedestrians being struck by vehicles, and unfortunately, in
(13:24):
many of these cases they're not being that pedestrian awareness
or the road awareness in some cases from pedestrians. What
do you think we need to do in this space.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, okay, I've only just hearing this news now through you.
It's pretty devastating and unfortunately, we have seen an increase
in pedestrian strikes and pedestrian deaths on our roads in
the Northern Territory and we definitely need to look at
what's being done currently, what needs to be improved, and
are there other processes around streets safe and community safe crossings,
(14:03):
making sure that pedestrians know that they also have the
responsibility as well as obviously drivers mentioning Bagott Road. I
know it's seventy and then eighty along that road. It's
a very long stretch of straight road, so you know,
you don't want to see any topic of accident or
indeed a pedestrian strike there. But I think there's a
(14:25):
lot more to be done in the territory. We know
that we have horrific figures when it comes to per
capita deaths on our roads in the Northern Territory compared
to the rest of the country, and that is definitely
not something we want to be winning when it comes
to the numbers there. But I think there's some really
great work by the AA in t here in the NT.
(14:45):
We have the Road Safety Week just a few weeks
ago here in the NT, but more regular campaigns, not
just you know, a one day or a one week
type of awareness, but you know, constant campaign around safety
on the roads, not just driver responsibility, pedestrian and cyclist responsibility.
I think also needs to be focused on King I.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Agree well Opposition leaders Selena Rubo. We are going to
have to leave it there. Thank you as always for
your time. We'll catch up with you again soon.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Thanks so much, Katie, thank you
Now, yesterday we spoke to the Chief Minister about the
calls for an independent investigation into the death of a
twenty four year old man who was trying to steal
items from calls in Alice Springs last Tuesday afternoon. The
Northern Territory News was yesterday reporting further details about the
incident he was allegedly involved in on the street in
(00:20):
Alice Springs prior to his death, with witnesses telling the
paper that a woman was allegedly assaulted moments earlier by
the same man outside the Commonwealth Bank on Gregory Terrace
and was holding an infant baby when she was attacked.
Now joining me on the line is the Opposition leader
Selena Rubo. Good morning, Selena, Good morning Katy In.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Good morning to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Now, I understand you've been in Alice Springs over recent days.
What was the purpose of that trip and who did
you meet with?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, Katie, I've come back from Alice Springs. Is down
there obviously in light of the tragic death last week.
I know that the people of Alice Springs is the
Central Australia, have been feeling very heavy. There's still a
lot of shock in the community and the region around
the tragic death last week of the young man. So
just wanting to show my support from the opposition around
(01:14):
what are the areas of concern for community members. I
think one of the big takeaways I took from my
visit to Alice Springs is the amount of people who
want to be part of solutions to work on community safety.
They don't want finger pointing, they want to work together
and they want to see change for the better across
(01:35):
the region. So I took that away and I've got
some concerns and ideas that I'll be presenting to the
government on behalf of my team Katie. So looking forward
to trying to work in a bipartisan way because people
are very deeply sad and hurt in Central Australia around
this incident.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Are there any of those you know, any of those
concerns or any of those potential solutions that you're prepared
to highlight for us today.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, I think there's a lot to take in. Obviously
there's still sorry business occurring from the Aboriginal cultural way
as well. But I was able to meet with some
of the family members and some of the leaders from
the Wolpury communities who again express their desire for people
to come together to work on solutions, and you know,
(02:24):
there's a lot of leadership that is going through that
heaviness of sadness at the moment, So just wanting to
respect that the ideas that some of the Woldbury elders
have around what they want to see in their community,
but also for people who are in you know, in town,
in all the springs itself. You know, I'll leave that
to them to speak to the government about. But in
(02:45):
terms of community safety measures, Katie, I think there's been
a lot of ideas that probably need just that little
bit of extra support, and I'm you know, I'm sure
that there will be things that have been presented to
the government, but i just really want to make sure
again that I'm showing some bipartisan support and being able
to work with the government. So I'm looking forward to
(03:07):
being able to present those with government and hopefully working together.
And i think similar to the you know, the horrible
incident that top End experience just in recent weeks, people
really want to see politicians and decision makers working together,
and that's what I'm really going to be focused on.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
We've really got to sort through these issues that we're experiencing,
there's no other way to put it. I mean, the
whole of the Northern Territory is hurting, as you've touched on.
People of Central Australia obviously hurting as a result of
what's happened and all of the Northern Territory last week,
but then just a couple of weeks ago, you know,
the senseless loss of life of Linford Fike up here
(03:44):
in the top end. And you know, sadly these are
not the only incidents we've experienced. So I do think
there needs to be that approach. We do all need
to get our heads together and try and sort through this. Selena.
I know, obviously the police conducting an investigation into the
man's death and the circumstances and alleged crimes prior. Do
(04:07):
you think the police investigation is enough or do you
feel that there needs to be an external investigation as well.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah, Katie, particularly from the Alice Springs community, I think
I heard that through the visit under No. Senator Mulander
McCarthy for the Northern Territory last week spoke about calling
for an independent inquiry. The more I spoke with people
and leaders across the community and businesses yesterday in Alice Springs.
(04:34):
This is resonating and it's no disrespect, of course to
our hard working police. They absolutely do an incredible job
under some very difficult circumstances day in and day out,
and that's obviously for the benefit of all of us
to be safer across the Northern Territory and definitely they
deserve our full support. I think in the horrible circumstances
(04:56):
and tragedy of last week, I think more and more
around an independent inquiry makes sense. And it's also to
allow for the police to do their normal work, which is,
you know, the investigation that they would do anyway, but
in terms of you know, processes and what we've heard
from the young man's family around better processes across the territory,
(05:17):
I think that could be a helpful opportunity from such
a tragic event to look at the overall processes and
is there something we can learn through an independent process?
And then who would do that? I think would be
the next question, Katie.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I mean, wouldn't that usually happen through a police investigation
and then through a coronial?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, I think some of the conversations and not to say,
who said this to me, Katie, But instead of echoing
the wording that people expressed to me yesterday was you know,
we support our police, but we are concerned about police
investigating police. So you know, take that as you will.
That's just some echoing of the concerns that will express
(05:56):
directly to me in our springs and again around that
independent inquiry. It would allow police to continue on the
work that they're doing now, but also to provide an
opportunity for better processes and perhaps that is not sitting
with the police, it's from an independent inquiry process.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Just so you'd support that obviously, Yeah, I think I
support it, just based on those conversations and hearing from
people directly who are experiencing.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
The pressures in Alice Springs and Central Australian region, I
think more and more echoing what Mullander is called for,
I think that would make sense to allow again and
allow police for an avenue to be able to look
at things that could be done better in the region
and so that they get the full support that they
need for community safety as well.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I know that this morning on ABC News the Troll
University professor Chris Mayley had said that better supports are
needed for the Northern Territory Police when dealing with people
with disabilities, but also saying that those police are not
properly trained to respond to health crises or disability needs.
(07:05):
He'd said police shouldn't be the default response in these
types of situations, and it's not enough just to train
the police. There also has to be options for police
to divert people to Responding to mental health crisis or
responding to disability needs is not police work and we
really need to set up systems where people can get
(07:26):
the support they need when they need it. What do
you make of those comments?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I think those comments absolutely hit the nail on the
head as well, Katie, from reflections of the conversations I've
had in the last day from Alice Springs around the
incident and around the tragic death. So I think there's
definitely more work in that space, and I think that
lots of people have echoed those same those very comments
that are so I forgot who.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
You've just quoted, Professor Chris Mayley from Latrop University.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, absolutely, I heard that in many different ways. Everything
that the professor has said I've heard directly from the
r Springs community as well.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Now I know there is a full and thorough investigation
to be undertaken, but if I am to read, if
I'm you know, if I'm to understand what I've read
correctly the Northern Territory News yesterday reporting that this young
man was involved in an incident prior to the situation
that unfolded at Cole's where a mum holding her young
(08:29):
child was allegedly assaulted, and that the Kearra was then
there with that family following on from what had happened.
I mean, it seems to me like, you know, the
Kearra would have ordinarily been with this young person, but unfortunately,
due to what had happened prior, may have then been
there trying to assist that family.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, Katie, and I've obviously seen those reports, but of
course not going to comment in terms of the investigation
that police are doing currently. But I think it does
build into that bigger picture around you know, service provision
what you've quoted from the professor, around better systems, better
support processes and service delivery, and I think there's a
(09:12):
bigger conversation to be had around this as well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
All right, I do want to move along because there
is a bit to cover off on this morning, and
I want to ask you about a a national story.
It was yesterday being reported in the Australian newspaper that
Will Australia has been asked to lift defense spending to
three point five percent of GDP as soon as possible,
with that request being relayed directly from the US Defense
Secretary to the Deputy Prime Minister Richard Miles. Now, this
(09:38):
is a major increase on the current levels of defense
spending and would require the government to pour many tens
of billions of extra money into the defense budget. What
do you make of these discussions happening between the US
and Australia given our strategic importance but also our vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, Katie, this is an interesting one when you think
about some of the discussions of the international level around trade,
around the increases around tariff etc. And then now this
request that's come from, of course one of our closest
allies and being the United States of America. I think
in terms of Australia's spending and I've had to do
a little bit of research around this one for myself.
(10:19):
I've got the Shadow portfolio is around some of the
levels of spending that we currently have in Australia, and
I understand Katie that you know, some of the increases
we've seen from defense in you know, in recent times
in the country has been the biggest increases in peacetime
in Australia's history. So there is a lot of spending.
(10:39):
I know, people chuck around the dollars and what that means,
but in terms of you know, the Northern Territory and
North Australia and the Northern bases, you know, we take
top end of Queensland and across the Kimberley and of
course the fourteen to eighteen billion dollars just in Northern
bases spend across Australia, and I mean that's a great
(11:00):
opportunity for us here in the NT. Obviously you've mentioned
we're very strategically placed for our allies, but also in
terms of what that means for our local territory businesses.
You know, the defenses really change the way that they
package up their contracts to allow you know, local businesses
to tend to for that really important work, but also
to get the financial benefit in the regions. And we
(11:22):
take tindle Raft Base that's in my elector to Varnum,
billions and billions of dollars being spent there. So it'll
be really interesting to see where this conversation goes nationally
when it comes to Australia's security. But in terms of
the territory, I mean, we've got a really good story
to economically ben to continue to benefit economically here, but
(11:44):
to grow our businesses and to see that then going
back into the community. But not to say without the
pressures as well, Cad how you expense.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Are you worried at all about what it might mean
if we don't, like, if Australia doesn't sort of stump
up and and you know, spend a bit more like
the US has requested. Are you worried about what it
might mean for the Northern Territory given our location.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, it'd be very like again, you know, this is
very recent news in the last few days, but I
think it would be a very very important one for
us to watch here in the Northern Territory because of
that impact and because you know, the Darwin is the
gateway to Asia with some of our closest neighbors and
opportunities for tourism and trade and businesses with Southeast Asia.
(12:27):
We know that, and then how does that fit in
with our national alliance with our other partners in defense.
So it'll be really interesting to see where this goes.
I can't will you anything.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
We'll all be keeping a very close eye on it.
I think we'll all be keeping a very close eye, Selena.
Before I let you go this morning, a woman's in
a critical condition after being struck by a car at
Eton last night. About eight thirty last night, police received
reports of a female pedestrian running across Baggett Road near
Totem Road in Eton. The police alleged that the woman
(12:59):
poured in the median strip, making no attempt to check
for traffic before running out and being struck by a vehicle.
Saint John Well, they happen to have a passing paramedic
crew carrying another patient. They stopped to help the woman
who is in severe pain and suffering from multiple injuries.
But we've got a real issue at the moment in
terms of pedestrians being struck by vehicles, and unfortunately, in
(13:24):
many of these cases they're not being that pedestrian awareness
or the road awareness in some cases from pedestrians. What
do you think we need to do in this space.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, okay, I've only just hearing this news now through you.
It's pretty devastating and unfortunately, we have seen an increase
in pedestrian strikes and pedestrian deaths on our roads in
the Northern Territory and we definitely need to look at
what's being done currently, what needs to be improved, and
are there other processes around streets safe and community safe crossings,
(14:03):
making sure that pedestrians know that they also have the
responsibility as well as obviously drivers mentioning Bagott Road. I
know it's seventy and then eighty along that road. It's
a very long stretch of straight road, so you know,
you don't want to see any topic of accident or
indeed a pedestrian strike there. But I think there's a
(14:25):
lot more to be done in the territory. We know
that we have horrific figures when it comes to per
capita deaths on our roads in the Northern Territory compared
to the rest of the country, and that is definitely
not something we want to be winning when it comes
to the numbers there. But I think there's some really
great work by the AA in t here in the NT.
(14:45):
We have the Road Safety Week just a few weeks
ago here in the NT, but more regular campaigns, not
just you know, a one day or a one week
type of awareness, but you know, constant campaign around safety
on the roads, not just driver responsibility, pedestrian and cyclist responsibility.
I think also needs to be focused on King I.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Agree well Opposition leaders Selena Rubo. We are going to
have to leave it there. Thank you as always for
your time. We'll catch up with you again soon.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Thanks so much, Katie, thank you
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