The Week That Was - 13th June 2025

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time for the week that was and joining us
live in the studio today, we have got the Minister
for Lands Planning and Environment, Josh Burgoyne. Good morning, Good.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Morning Katie, Good morning to your listeners.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Nice warm weather in Darwin, com.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Beautiful, very cold knows us about two degrees overnight, but
it's lovely.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Up here freezing. We have indeed got Matt Cunningham from
Sky News. Good morning to.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
You, Matt, morning Katie.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Good to have you on the show. And we've got
the Opposition leader Selena Yubo, Good morning to you.

Speaker 4 (00:25):
Good morning Katie, Good morning to your listeners.

Speaker 5 (00:27):
And just a quick happy birthday to my husband for today,
Oh happy birthday.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
And well I'll tell you what it has been such
a busy week and we will talk a little bit
more about estimates throughout the throughout the morning, but before
we get there, I want to talk about these indecent assaults.
We know the Northern Territory Police are warning women to
stay vigilant after two indecent assaults in Darwin. A male
intruder allegedly and decently assaulted a woman in her own

(00:54):
bead at Alarakia Unit Complex the night before last Police
say the victim woke up to a hand across her
mouth by a man neatly dressed in all black wearing
a full face balaclava. It follows a similar incident in
perap with a woman waking up to a naked man
in her bed on Tuesday night. Now it's not known

(01:15):
if these incidents are linked, but the community is being
told to take precaution by securing doors and windows and
reporting any suspicious behavior now. Meanwhile, in a totally separate situation,
the Northern Territory Police are calling for information in relation
to an indecent act towards a child under the age
of sixteen that occurred in Palmerston yesterday morning. About eight

(01:39):
o'clock in the morning. The police received a report that
an unknown man had approached a young girl in the
vicinity of the Gray Community Hall and indecently exposed himself
while engaging in an indecent act towards her from a distance.
He's fled the scene when the police arrived. I mean,
all of these incidents are absolutely horriffic. We might go

(02:01):
to the indecent assaults inside these women's homes to begin with.
I honestly, I cannot think of anything more terrifying than
waking up in the middle of the night to have
somebody on top of you in your bed in one
of those situations. It is just it's terrifying.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Stuff, shocking incidents, shocking instances that have been occurring, and
unfortunately in my hometown of Alla Springs, we've seen this
happen in the past. Obviously, since comany government we have,
we've been strengthening these laws. We've been making sure that
we are locking up people there are danger on our streets,
and we will continue to strengthen the laws and make
sure that police have the powers they need. Obviously, police
are urging the public as you read out in that statement, Katie,

(02:41):
to whilst these people are still on the loose, we
need to ensure that these people are taken off the
street because obviously they've been a risk of the community
and this sort of behavior is simply not on. So
we need to ensure that any serious offenders are taken
off our streets so people can feel safe, because this
sort of behavior is simply a horror. We've seen it
happen right across the Northern Territory in the past. But yeah,

(03:04):
this really is concerning behavior and whenever we hear of
these sorts of incidents, we just think, you know, why
is this happening in our community? But we will continue
to strengthen the laws to ensure that we're taking these
people off our streets.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, I mean, it's just like you say, I mean,
it's absolutely terrible and would be terrible for the victims
involved and hopefully you know police, well, we know police
are doing everything they can to apprehend the alleged defender,
and let's hope they do so soon.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, I mean, it's terrible, Like, it's terrifying stuff, Selena.
As a woman, I know, like you know, it doesn't
matter what gender you are, really, but to feel unsafe
in your own home is absolutely horrifying. You know, like
I think of myself if I'm at home with my kids.
I'm sure you probably think the same, and a sense
of helplessness if somebody gets inside your house.

Speaker 5 (03:51):
Yeah, absolutely, Katie, it's deeply disturbing to hear these incidences
and you know, so close together up here in Darwin,
and I'm sure there's you know, we've spoken on your
show many times, Katie about some of the escalation in
not just crime, but in terms of the types of
crime and that's what's really disturbing, and when it is
against a person who's at home on their own often

(04:13):
it is very very scary to think about that. So
I mean interested to hear more from Josh and his
team about what else is going to happen around the
focus around prevention of crime. Obviously there's been a lot
of work done by the government that focuses on some
of that acute and tail end of crime and what
happens after the fact. But I think prevention and support

(04:36):
around reducing risks in the community, I think that's really
something that we need to focus on here in the Territory.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Now, this comes the same week that we learned that
Territorians over eighteen are going to be able to buy
oc spray from September for self defense as part of
this twelve month trial. The Chief Minister says the Northern
Territory is going to look to replication the approach in
Western Australia, the only other jurisdic where OC spray is lawful.
The Northern Territory Police leading that consultation with key stakeholders

(05:05):
and the community over the coming months to firm up
the specifics of that trial. Now, I know that there's
been quite a mixed reaction I think you'd say to
this announcement. By and large, we've actually received a lot
of positive feedback to this announcement throughout the week, certainly
from women contacting me saying Katie, you know, I don't
feel safe if I go for a walk or when
I'm out and about, and I'm not planning on having

(05:27):
to use it, but if it's there, it is an option.
Others obviously quite concerned that it could get into the
wrong hands and that we may end up in a
situation where you've got kids or young people using this
oc spray in a way that is the total opposite
to what we intend. The Aboriginal Medical Services Alliance of

(05:48):
the Northern Territory am SAT strongly condemning the oc SP
spray trial, warning that it'll do nothing to improve community safety.
The CEO John Patterson saying giving the community access to
a weapon won't fix the problem, It'll fuel it, putting
lives of vulnerable people at risk. Now, I've got to
tell you I've had a stalker before, I've been followed

(06:11):
home before, I've had somebody approach me while i'm running.
Before and for me, I don't want to have to
arm myself with OC spray, but I wouldn't mind it
being an option.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, And I think that's what I've heard from constituents.
In my electric Katie, I've got a number of women. Unfortunately,
an incident which I heard about just this week, a
woman was out exercising early morning, was assaulted. Her husband
is now riding his bike with her every morning just
so that she feels safe. What this is about is
this is about ensuring that if people want to avail

(06:42):
themselves of having OC spray, it will be a defensive option.
And I think that's what people really need to get
their heads around here. This will be something someone can
use and then get away from someone that is attacking them. Now,
in regards to all the concerns that have been raised
about who's going to be able to access this, there
will need to be criminal history checks. People will need
to be eighteen years of age. This isn't something that's

(07:02):
going to be freely available for any Tom, Dick or
Harry to use. There will be checks and balances in place.
It will be sold by certain licensed people, and I
think this is something that we've really been another thing
that I've heard is, oh, this has just come out
of the blue. There's been a lot of conversation for
a lot of time, and we've heard loud and clear
from the community that at times don't feel safe in

(07:22):
certain settings. Now, we want to ensure that whilst we're
strengthening the laws, we're giving the police all the tools
they need, that we also ensure that people feel safe.
And if by carrying this low OC spray, this pepper
spray around with it makes them feel safe, well, then
that's a positive thing that we can do.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
You need like, do you need to prove that you
need it for self defense? Or can anyone who could
I just rock up to I'm not sure where you're
planning to sell it from, but could I just rock
up and buy some if I don't have a criminal history.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
As long as you don't have a criminal history and
you're above eighteen. Those will be the checks that we're
looking at him to put in place to ensure that
anyone that wishes to buy this can.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
And is there a limit on how much of it
you can buy?

Speaker 2 (08:00):
These will all be things that will be sorted out
closer to the release date in September.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
And then I guess what stops someone who doesn't have
a criminal record, who's above eight and going and buying
pepper spray and then giving it to me. We see
the issues with secondary supply with alcohol, and we've never
been able to get on top of that issue. What
stops someone going and buying pepper spray and then giving
it to someone who really shouldn't have it?

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Absolutely, And look, people are going to raise these issues.
At the end of the day, we want to ensure
this has been something that's been in place for Western Australia.
There have been no issues for the last decade in
regards to the reporting that we've seen come out of
that jurisdiction. It's a defensive option for people should they
so wish to use it. I hope people never have
to use it, I seriously do. But if this prevents
a woman being assaulted, being sexually assided when they're out,

(08:44):
whether they be exercising early, whether they be in their
house and someone's trying to climb through their window, it's
a defensive option that someone can utilize and it may
give that person an additional feeling of safety in their
own home or when they're out.

Speaker 5 (08:56):
Yeah, Katie, there's no doubt that community safety is the
number one priority for territories at the moment, and I think,
you know, the use of OC spray may give you know,
some people some comfort and security, and I think that
absolutely matters, definitely, But I think it is truly an
admission of failure by Lifanokiaa and her government that they
can't keep territory in safe that now people it's in

(09:20):
our own hands to keep ourselves safe because the government's
not there to be able to do it. I think
the further investment into supporting our police would go a
long way into improving community safety and reducing crime, which
is you know, the mandate that so you always talk about.
I think the opportunity to do that will be now
with the Police EBA to make sure that police are
getting the best pay in the country that they have the.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
More about the EBA a bit later on the show.

Speaker 5 (09:45):
Yeah, but I think, you know, the checks and balances
will be really important because at the moment, the COLP
government is announcing things without having done its homework, without
having done its due diligence, and without being able to
talk about some of those risk factors that are coming
up in this conversation just you know, forty eight hours
since the announcement, I have details.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
Say to me throughout this week as well, you know, Wilfee,
I sleep with a metal rod under my bed at
the moment, or I've got a baseball bat that I
sleep next to, you know, with next to my bed
at the moment. You know, I've had people contact me
with all sorts of comments like that, and you know,
I would say to everybody, you know, you err on
the side of caution if ever having to utilize those

(10:28):
kinds of things if somebody gets inside your house. But
I think the fact is that in the Northern Territory
at the moment, and this is not new Like I
am certainly not going to pretend that this is a
new issue under the current Northern Territory government, because it's
something that I've been screaming about for years on this
show and speaking to victims of crime every single day about.
But the fact is, at the moment, people don't feel

(10:49):
safe in their own homes. I mean, you've got these
situations that we spoke about earlier as well, where women
have literally woken to people on top of them inside
their rooms, on their beds, you know, I can understand
why we've reached a point where we're kind of going, well,
what personal protection measures can we take as a community.
Whether it's right or wrong, I really don't know. And unfortunately,

(11:11):
you know, I think that we probably will wind up
in a situation at some point where oc spray is
used in an unintended way. But at the moment, we've
got people using machetes, we've got them using cars, We've
got them using all sorts of things in unintended ways
as well. Does that make it right? I certainly don't
want it to descend into a situation where we're all
trying to defend ourselves in different ways, but we're a

(11:33):
bit crooked at the moment, you know, in terms of
the crime.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
And I guess in some ways that's the point. It
doesn't seem like, it doesn't seem to me to be
a solution. Like I mean, I'm a bit of a
I'm a big, burly bloke, right so I'm not the
right person to give an opinion as to whether you know,
someone might feel safe for carrying pepper spray as they
go for a run in the morning or a walk

(11:56):
at night or whatever. And I absolutely understand the point
you're making there, and I've heard other women make that
point this week. But when it comes to fixing the
issues of crime, you know, I haven't heard a groundswell
of community opinion saying we need to be able to
carry peppspray. I hear a lot of people. In my
personal opinion is we need a lot more police. I

(12:17):
feel like the biggest issue we've got at the moment
is we just do not have anywhere near enough police.
And anyone who's tried to get help from police will
be able to tell you that because I know that
in the instances where I've tried to get help from
police in the last twelve or eighteen months, it's bloody difficult.
You end up unless you call triple zero. And I've
called Triple zero. I've been on a whole for five minutes.

(12:37):
But if you call the General Police helpline, you're probably
going to be on hold for ten minutes or more,
and then you're probably going to be told that unless
you're in a situation where there's an immediate threat to you,
that there's not going to be a police officer coming
anytime soon.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
And in regards to those police numbers, we are recruiting NonStop.
Police Attrition has now dropped to its lowest rate in
three years. We are doing all the things we can
to get more police on the ground, and I have
one hundred and agree to you. There'll be further announcements
about how we can bolster and support our police. And
I think that's what I'm trying to get through to
everyone here that's listening this morning. No government, no government
has done more since coming a power to ensure that

(13:11):
we give police the powers they need, the tools they need,
and now backing them in so that they stay in
the police force rather than leave. And we were seeing
attrition rates under the previous government, Katie of eleven percent.
We had more police leaving than what we could actually recruit.
We're trying to stem that flow, recruit new people and
ensure that they have the tools they need to keep
us aurce which.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
And that raises the only other question I had about this.
And I heard the Deputy Chief Minister speaking about this
on radio this morning, and he's saying that the police
are going to basically run this trial. And I just
wonder when our police resources are stretched to the absolute limit,

(13:51):
whether you know what the logic is behind giving them
another because it doesn't seem like it's going to be
an easy thing to organize and to run. Suddenly police
have got this to manage as well. I'd rather my
police out patrolling the streets than dealing with how they're
going to manage the goronmentation.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Let's think it's more about working with them about the
necessary safeguards and the regulation. So you mentioned before some
of the concerns you had, Matt, and I think it's
about saying, well, police are best, as you rightly said,
they see secondary supply on all these things. How can
we work best with police to ensure those safeguards and
regulations are in place to alleviate a lot of those concerns.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Look, we might take a really quick break when we
come back. I am keen to continue this discussion and
also speak more about the police calls for those pay
negotiations to really be sorted out, sooner rather than later.
We'll take a quick break. You are listening to Mix
one O four point nine three sixty. It is the
week that was. You are listening to the Week that
was in the studio with us this morning, We've got

(14:48):
Josh burgoin Matt Cunningham and Selena Yubo. Now, we were
just speaking about police resources and I think that it's
pretty safe to say across the Northern Territory at the moment,
everybody would like to see more please on the ground.
And the Police union enjoined me on the show. Earlier
in the week, the Police Association's Northern Territory president Nathan

(15:10):
Finn and was talking about the pay dispute. Now he
did issue a statement and say talk tough on crime,
abandoned those who fight it. That's the message Northern Territory
police are hearing loud and clearly from the COLP government
following its latest shameful payoffer. Two officers providing their promises
were nothing more or sorry proving their promises were nothing

(15:32):
more than political spin. Now, Nathan Finn saying the government
was elected on a law and order mandate and it
leaned on police to deliver it despite the force already
being stretched to breaking point. He said, when it comes
time to show up for police with meaningful recognition and pay,
the Chief Minister is nowhere to be seen.

Speaker 4 (15:53):
Now.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
I had Joe Hersey on the show yesterday. She said
that what is on the table at the moment, I
believe is four percent in the first year, three point
five percent, three point five then three percent. Now Nathan
Finn had said that what the police are after is
five percent. I know it's a really difficult sort of
path to get into where you're having to, you know,

(16:15):
to give every public servant a pay increase. But we've
got to be competitive surely when it comes to policing
and if we want to try and boost those numbers
to entice people to move here from other parts of Australia.
I mean, is five percent too much to ask Josh?

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, Look, Ca, I want to be really clear about
this because I've been chatting to a lot of coppers
in our springs. I think there's been a lot of
confusion in regards to this around the housing. Housing was
something that they came out and said, ah, we're getting
rid of it, complete rubbish. Right now, police have a choice.
I think it's around thirty grand. It's probably a little
bit less, little bit more thirty thousand dollars that you
can get and then you go and sort out your

(16:50):
own accommodation when you come to the Northern Territory. That's
that's your housing deal or you can say, oh, just
give me your house and I'll move into that. My
old man, when he was a police officer, he took
the house. Means that police and have to manage, however,
many houses, just in case police want to want to
get given a house. A lot of police now are saying,
we'll take the money, we'll sort ourselves out. So what
we're looking at is, rather than managing all those houses

(17:13):
that there may not be anyone in, let's give police
the money they want and they can go out and
sort them out, so that housing is never off the table.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
That's a bit different though too.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Is well exactly, I think it's it's very beneficial to
take the take the money because it's an allowance. It's
a housing.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
Allowances, a thirty thousand dollars tax free allowance.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Well, I don't want to I don't want to put
words in anyone's mouth, but we were never getting rid
of any of that.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
Well no, I'm just trying to work out, well, and I.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
Don't want to say it is if it isn't. Okay,
that's what I'm saying. Okay, there's there's a housing allowance,
which is given my understanding as someone you know, an
allowance is generally tax free, but I don't want to
say it definitely is if it isn't. So in regards
to the house.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Does that apply to every police officer regardless of whether you're
in Darwin, Alice Brings, Tenant Creek, Catherine or Remote.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
That's my understanding, so so right across the board. So
I've been speaking to Police Office as they've said to me, Oh,
I'm a police officer. My life's a police officer. The
housing allowance is great because that's a really good reason
to come into the Northern Territory because we can get ahead.
And I think the Chief Minister rightly said, whether it
was on this show or on the ABC other day,
including that housing allowance, we are the best paid police

(18:14):
in the country. So it's about working now with the
NTPA to come to an agreement. In the past, I
believe the previous negotiations I agreed on four to three
and three percent. This was at a time when CPI
so inflation was at seven so essentially they weren't getting
a real pay increase. Right now we know inflation is
a lot lower. I think it's around two and ared
and half percent on not the treasure but and what's

(18:37):
being offered, as you rightly said, Katie, is four to
three and a half. Three and three is the numbers
I have in front of me. So what we're offering police,
we value the work police do. This is a pay
negotiation like any other pay negotiation, and we'll continue to
work with them so that they feel like they get
a good deal and everyone gets a good deal out
of this. That's what it's about, working in good fights.

Speaker 5 (18:57):
Josh, Can I just ask, because we've also heard rumor,
is that the grandfathering of those housing entitlements that you're
talking about is what's being presented as part of that EBA.
Do you know any more around that or is that
something that we'd have to ask your colleague about it.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, look, I don't know about that. I think the
biggest frustration for me is that when I speak to
people on the ground, they're saying, what's going on with
this housing I want to really just say to people,
you're not losing your housing allowance. Let's be really loud
and clear in regards to that.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
The question, though, did you promise before the election that
you wouldn't touch the housing allowance in any way, shape
or form, because that's that's what the NTPA says that
the cops promised before the elections to protect it, was
that that housing allowance would be unchained.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
What we're saying is that the housing allowance is being protected.
In what form it is, I don't know, but at
the end of the day, we'll work with the NTPA
if they don't want that. If they say no, we
want the option, hey, we'll work with them around that.
But I think they were happy to give them they
there was well, let's work through the negotiations. The whole
point is is that when you're able to save money here,
you're able to give them.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
More their It sounds like what you want to get
out of the businesses house of managing houses, well and
just make that a payment rather than.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
These are the negotiations that are underplay, and I think
that's really important for police officers out there to understand
we're never going to take away your allowance. It's about
working the best way forward to how we provide housing
here in the Northern Territory.

Speaker 5 (20:18):
For police and Katie, I just would hope that the
government will make the commitment that any new officers that
are sworn into the Northern Territory are able to access
those really important housing allowances and entitlements so that they
don't miss out. Because our understanding at the moment is
what is being proposed is it'll be grandfathered out, so
the current police officers will keep their entitlement depending on

(20:41):
which one they choose, as Josh's explained. But our worry
is that any new officers to the Northern Territory will
not get that entitlement, so it would be great to
get some clarity around them.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Look, we must have police officers listening to the show
this morning. I know they do, but I've got one here, Hi, Katie,
the police housing is not tax free. Another one, Good morning, Katie.
Are police officers sacrifice more than will ever be known
or acknowledge. Their wage and housing conditions must be exceptional
to maintain them and to keep the Northern Territory police

(21:10):
force attractive. That is just part of what that text message.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
How does it pay for? Maybe some of these people
can text him, how does the pay for a Northern
Territory police officer? I'd be interested to know compared to
the other states in the country, because it's not news
to anyone that they have a much tougher job than
anyone anywhere else in this country. You know, what they

(21:34):
see every day, the level of crime that they're dealing with,
the type of issues they're dealing with, the domestic violence
in particular that they deal with, and what they see
every day. And you've seen with the coronial inquest in
the death of Michael Dutram just a couple of weeks ago,
the impact that can have on people who are doing
this job. So I think there's an argument that our
police need to not just be paid at the level

(21:55):
of anyone else in the country, but at a level
well above anyone else in the country. Otherwise we're going
to have the issue that we already have now, which
is that we can't attract enough police to come and
work here.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
Well, that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
I think it's a very good point, and certainly the
coronial inquest into Michael Dutram's death has really demonstrated some
of the you know, some of the pain that police
officers face every single day and some of the issues
that they're dealing with and how difficult they can be.
Now we know that you still sort of in this space.

(22:26):
This week, the Northern Territory Police Force we learned are
going to be investigating on behalf of the coroner after
a man died in Royal Darwin Hospital over the weekend.
So the Australian Federal Police have received reports of an
intoxicated sixty eight year old man unable to board a
flight out of Darwin. That man was taken into protective
custody by AFP officers and was initially conveyed to the

(22:49):
Palmeston Watchouse before being admitted and whilst in AFP custody,
the custody sergeant and the nurse assess the man where
it was deemed necessary to convey the man to Royal
Dara Hospital for further assessment. Upon arrival, members noticed that
the man had lost consciousness. Medical staff were alerted who
immediately commenced CPR. Resuscitation efforts were successful and he was

(23:12):
transferred to the Intensive Care Unit in a stable condition
for ongoing treatment for what was a suspected medical event.
Now on Saturday night, that man passed away in the ICU.
The cause of his death remains undetermined pending a post mortem.
The man has indeed been remembered as a great visionary
and educator as the remote Northern Territory community of Whateir

(23:35):
mourns his loss. It is the second death in custody
in twelve days. We know that separate investigations are being
conducted into both of those incidents. It's a terrible situation.
There is no other way to put it. And as
I said, you know, the Northern Territory Police now investigating that,

(23:56):
but that man was in the hands early on of
Australian Federal Police. But look, the Police Association, I guess
you know, these are two incredibly difficult and tragic situations
and quite different, you know, each of those situations quite

(24:18):
different from what we've been told by the Northern Territory Police.
But earlier in the week, the Police Associations Nathan Finn
joined us on the show. He said that he had
full confidence in the Northern Territory Police to investigate the incidents.
He has been in Alice Springs or had been and
seen the police involved in the situation in Alice Springs.

(24:42):
He said, it is a tragedy, but those police were
forced to respond, you know, they could not walk by
in that situation. Again, I want to point out that
they're very separate situations, but the police overseeing both of those.
We have spoken about this for the last week or so,
the situation in Alice Springs. I mean, can the Northern

(25:03):
Territory Police investigate that death in custody or do we
need to see an independent investigation here? Nathan Finn said,
we do not need. The Northern Territory Police are absolutely
capable of conducting that investigation.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Absolutely, Caadie, And firstly, I do just want to extend
my condolences to the family friends in the community who
are mourning this loss at the moment, that's what we
need to start with this as a person that's lost
their life. In regards to the question about who should
be investigating it this, the Northern Territory Police are the
appropriate body to undertake this investigation, as they would be
in any other jurisdiction. It's really important that we allow

(25:37):
police to do their job. As you spoke about, the
person was initially in the AFP custody, which I think
really does highlight some of the previous cause in regards
to AFP investigating the third desting custody, that the Northern
Territory Police are the appropriate people to deal with these investigations. Obviously,
whether there needs to be a coronial after all this
that will go through that process as well. We have

(26:00):
these processes in place, we need to allow those investigations
to take place because at the moment there is a
lot of speculation both in regards to what's happened in
Alice Springs and now up here. Let's allow that investigation
take place, the facts to be laid bare, and then
obviously we can all find out what has actually occurred
in estimates.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
I know that the Minister of Disability Services jins and Charles,
was grilled by Kat McNamara over the Alice Springs death
in custody during estimates and questioning why he hadn't issued
a statement. I mean, I feel as though the reality
of this is we saw following on from these situation
in You and Demou a few years back, where politicians

(26:42):
were commenting on things that really I don't know whether
it was appropriate for them to be commenting on. It
became a bit of a spectacle in a lot of ways,
and I do feel as though it is you know,
it is maybe a situation where politicians do need to
step aside for a moment let the police do their jobs.
But I'm keen to hear everybody else's thoughts.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
Well, I think if you go back to the shooting
death of Kumunjai Walker, we did see that we sought
too many people saying too many things, including the Eykak commissioner,
if you will remember, who got up at a rally
in Alice Springs and made some incredibly bizarre comments given
the position that he held, which was supposed to be
overseeing the police investigation into that matter. And I know

(27:23):
there have been a lot of calls for an independent
investigation into the death of Kumenjai White and that police
that those that the people calling for that independent investigation
don't have confidence in the police to properly investigate themselves.
It should be noted. And I think Nathan Finn made
the point the other day that the most recent example
we have of an incident like this that the people

(27:46):
who were most aggrieved by that investigation were the police
officer who was charged with murder five days after the
event and many of his colleagues who felt that that
was done in haste. Now I've had private conversations with
senior police who've explained the reasons why that happened, and
there was an opinion sort from the DPP and the

(28:07):
advice was given, but there are there are, there are.
I think when you have all this noise around an
issue like this, it makes it really hard for the
people who are trying to do their job to do
their job. And I think that's the area that we're
waiting into again here. You know, it's really difficult. I
know that emotions are running really high, and people, you know,

(28:29):
want to see a just outcome, but I think a
lot of the political commentary probably makes it unhelpful for
those who are already in a really difficult situation.

Speaker 5 (28:38):
Yeah, and Katie, just going back to your earlier point
around the Memph Nightcliff's questions to the Minister of a
Disabilities Jins and Charles, I think the frustration that I
saw in that line of questioning was around you know,
Jinson not actually even offering condolences, like I mean, Josh
just did it then? Like it? You know, everybody feels
in the territory when something trag happens, when something scary,

(29:01):
horrific happens in our community, we all hurt, we all
feel that, we all emphasize, and I think that's really
important when it comes from our leaders and it's not
to politicize. I think you know that, you know, people
do know when a politician is politicizing something for their
own gain, and that'll be for the public to genuinely
respond to. But I think in this case, when we
see a loss of life of any territory, and you know,

(29:22):
it's kind of a natural feature for our leaders to
provide that condolence. But going on to your point around
the independent inquiry, Katie, and you know, supporting some of
the calls for that, not just to say that the
police will not do their job.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
I absolutely believe that they will.

Speaker 5 (29:37):
But in terms of providing an opportunity for police to
feed into that becomes more of a neutral response because
whilst police have their duties to investigate what has happened,
and obviously now with the two deaths in custody two
weeks apart, and as you said, under very different circumstances,
there's no public facing response that either those police officers

(29:59):
can even provide in that sense. They'll do their duties,
they'll do the investigation, and they'll obviously do their job
is what we want them to do. But in terms
of providing not just family community response, but allowing a
platform police to feed into to then hopefully create a
space and recommendations so that we don't see a repeat
of what's happened in the last two weeks.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
But that's essentially a coronial investigation there.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
It is the coronial as well.

Speaker 5 (30:22):
But I think what we've seen in the territory Matt
is two very highly communicated deaths that have now led
to some uncertainty around procedures, and I think that repairing
that confidence is really important for the territory.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
We are a small jurisdiction.

Speaker 5 (30:43):
Like if you don't know someone you know someone who
knows them. You know, it's a two degrees of separation
in the territory. And that's why if we're talking about
an independent process, I think that would be a really
good move forward in terms of being able to provide
certainty for police, as much as community and as much
as the families.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
What does what does that independent process look like? That
what are you talking about? Are you're talking about someone
else investigating the criminality of this incident or are you
talking about something else?

Speaker 5 (31:07):
Well, I think in the terms of what I understand,
particularly what the families call for and the support in
the sense in our Springs and come in Jay White
and the death that was experienced in our springs. It
would allow that process to similar to a coronial, I understand,
allow that process to come out, but also allow the
input for police to say what are our procedures whether.

Speaker 4 (31:28):
You're on duty or off duty, etc. And being able
to provide that.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
And I like a coronial inquiry, but not done by
the Northern Territory Coroner done by someone from outside.

Speaker 5 (31:36):
I understand Matt that the coroner will still do their
duties as required in it.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
To faith in the coroner to do that.

Speaker 4 (31:43):
I absolutely have faith in the coroner.

Speaker 5 (31:44):
But I'm thinking if we're to move forward together as
the community in the Northern Territory, if this is a
way to move forward together, then I think that's a
positive moment.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
I'm just sorry to labor a point, but I'm just
trying to get my head around who you think should
do the inquiry and what exactly that inquiry should look into,
because because the calls from the family, I think are
that the Northern Territory Police should not investigate the alleged
criminality of what took place in that Cole supermarket. Are

(32:12):
you comfortable with the Northern Territory Police investigating that or
do you think someone else should investigate that.

Speaker 5 (32:17):
I think if there is a mechanism of oversight, then
that would be again a constructive way to move our
community forward.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
I just think though, we then fall into the potential
situation where what other cases will we want to see
somebody else independent that's not the Northern Territory Police investigating
you know, different incidents. And I understand that in this
situation we are talking to death in custody, but I
do note that even the calls for security vision to
be released, that's not something that you know, that we

(32:46):
had spoken about throughout the tragedy that was the death
of Linford Fike. Now, I know that they're very different situations,
but I think if you start to go down the
path of releasing security vision and doing certain things in situations,
how can you then tell other Territorians that they're not
able to receive the same level of treatment from, you know,

(33:07):
from the Northern Territory Police, or not able to have
that same releasing of information from the Northern Territory Police.
And again, I know that they're very different situations, but
I just think that it's a it could potentially be
a slippery slope to sort of start going down.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
It is, Katie, and this is what frustrates me. I
had a gentleman who was riding home from work one
night many years ago and a car run a red light,
stolen motor vehicle, killed him, ended his life. Now that
person died and his family, they called for peace, they
called for calm. There was no release of footage of

(33:42):
the incident occurring. It went through a process and at
the end of the day, that person that killed that
man was charged. I had that person's family in my office.
You know. I hear what everyone's saying right now, Let's
just let the investigation take place. Let's stop politicizing this.
We've got professional act of us in our springs right
now who are egging on some of this stuff, and

(34:03):
it's really upsetting myself. As a community. We've just come
through what we've been dealing with out at Indamu. We
were about to have the coronial fightings handed down, which
again would have been extremely hard for everyone involved the
community out at Indomo. That's been pushed back in light
of obviously what's happened. We need to be able to
work through these things and right now Unfortunately people are

(34:23):
trying to make mileage out of this. Let's just allow
the investigation to take place, allow the findings to come out.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
I think there's another point that's probably worth making, and
that is the calls for an independent investigation have been
pushed really hard by MALANDERR. McCarthy, the Minister for Indigenous Australians,
and Marian Scrimger, the Federal Labor MP. They have the
power to make that happen if they want. The Federal government,
if it wants to, can overrule the Northern Territory on anything,

(34:51):
they can make so. So the ball in this instance
is the Prime is in the Prime Minister's court. Right
if he wanted to, he can say I don't trust
Northern Territory to independently investigate this matter. We can step in.
Here's what he said in relation to this matter at
the Press Club on Wednesday. He said, now, in general,
the idea of federal intervention, which is frankly an easy

(35:13):
thing that people come up with, why aren't you sending
the AFP, Why aren't you doing that? With that? Without
then saying where it leads, He said, I'd need to
be convinced that people in Canberra know better than people
in the Northern Territory about how to deal with these issue.
That's my starting point. I think it comes up all
the time with the range of issues. So the Prime
Minister appears to be saying, why would camera investigate something

(35:35):
in the Northern Territory, and he doesn't appear to be
on board with what his representatives here in the Northern
Territory are saying on this issue.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Look, we are going to take a really quick break.
You're listening to Mix one O four nine's three point sixty.
It is the week that was. If you've just joined us,
we've missed a busy morning. So far, we've got Josh Burgoyne.
We've also got Matt Cunningham and Selena Eubo in the studio.
Now it has been the first week of budget estimate sitting.
I like to say on this show, I listen so

(36:03):
you don't have to, but I tell you what it's.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
Been hostil I.

Speaker 5 (36:13):
You're respond to your viewers, don't have to come.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
I gotta tell you it was pretty boring.

Speaker 4 (36:21):
No, Look, I tried.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
I tried much longer than the normal Parliament and I
did listen for several hours yesterday afternoon there was a lot,
you know, there's always a lot of doing and throwing.
But one of the interesting bits of information that has
come through that the Northern Territory News Cam Smith reporting
this morning that almost two months after he announced his resignation,
the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries Chief Executive Andrew Kirkman

(36:46):
is going to continue to be paid by Territory tax
payers until August, when his contract was due to expire.
The opposition Attorney General Chancey Paig uncovered the anomaly during
estimates hearings on Thursday, so yesterday now, mister Pig tried
unsuccessfully to get a straight answer out of mister Kirkman's boss,

(37:06):
Jered Maylee about the bureaucrat's employment status. Mister Pike saying,
are you able to confirm if the former chief executive
is still being paid as the chief executive? Mister Maylee saying,
I can confirm he hasn't resigned. So again that question
would be to the Department of Chief Minister and Cabinet
who are handling the recruitment process. Mister Pike saying, so
you're unable to confirm or deny if Andrew Kirkman is

(37:29):
still being paid as a chief executive, Jered Maylee saying,
what I'm saying is he hasn't resigned and he's still
being paid. Exactly what level. You'd have to talk to
the Chief Minister's Department and I would ask you to
pass that question to them. What is the go Josh?
Is he still reckon?

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Let Selena talk rubbish and then I'll come in at
the end and clear up any issues.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
And I'll clear it up. I watched this estimate, Oh
did you he didn't.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Have to die?

Speaker 3 (38:02):
And I nearly fell off my chair. I was like, like,
so chancing. He's asking the questions like I thought he
must have known something. So he asked his question and
he's like, can you confirm whether Andrew Kirkman is still
being paid? I thought that's an odd question, and then
you know, Jared sort of started to waffle a little bit,
and then the acting CEO whispers in his ear, and
next thing you know, he says, no, he hasn't resigned.

(38:24):
He's stood down, as though there's some difference. I don't know,
but it's weird because on the seventeenth of April, there
is literally a story in the Ant News where Andrew
Kirkman has told his colleagues he's resigning, and Jared Mayley
has said Andrew Kirkman has concluded his role as Chief
Executive of Officer, Department of Agriculture and Fisheries effective today.
I would like to thank Andrew for his dedicated service.

(38:47):
And yet, then, as Cam points out in his article,
you know, he emailed him and got an auto reply
sort of saying that he's on leave, but didn't say
he's resigned, Like, has he resigned or has he not? Really?
And how's he still been just setting paid?

Speaker 1 (39:02):
And how do I get a job like that? Yeah,
I'm just joking.

Speaker 4 (39:06):
What's the cover?

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Mister Andrew Kirkman's executive contract was due to expire in
August of twenty twenty five. As per the normal executive
contract management, discussions commenced approximately six months prior to the
expiring date. This is what happens with every executive contract
across public service. Six months to go, have a conversation.
Are you going to stay on? Do we want you
to stay on? Mister Kirkman was advised that his contract

(39:29):
would not be renewed, and he commenced leave immediately. He
officially concluded his role as the Chief Executive Officer of
the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries on the seventeenth of April,
and any further inquiries in regards to mister Kirkman's role
can be so contract.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
And in August, and you guys told him in February
presumably if he had to do.

Speaker 4 (39:49):
It six months.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
So that's the how come you? How come are you're
getting rid of you were getting rid of him.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
This is what happens with every executive officer, mister Matt
Either you keep people or you don't. That's what ends
up happening. Okay, And they're tough discussions that happened in
regards to this. But if you work your entire life
and work your way up to executive contract, this is
what's in the executive contract. Basically, with six months to go,
you either say I'll take my six months pay out
and walk out the door or you say, well, I'll

(40:14):
go and leave.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
And if you go on, like what sort of leave
is he on? But is it clearly paid leave? But
is it is it annual?

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Is it until August? Just like a football player is
contractor you got to pay out their contract his contractors
till August.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
So in that situation, why not let him continue in
the role until it expires in August, Because yesterday we
had an acting CEO is sitting in the chair who's
presumably I don't know, getting paid at the level of
a CEO. Well, you're paying someone else who's still contracted
to do the job until August to do the job.
That's not a smart way to run. Like if it

(40:52):
was a bit, no business would would operate like that.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
At the end of the day, he's got an executive
contract which finishes in August. He was advised that he
would not be continuing that role and he saw to
take leag That's up to mister Kirkman.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
So do I know it's sick leave or recreational leaves
at the.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
End of the day, I don't know all those particulars,
but I just want to clear up for everyone because
I hear it right, I used to be an electrician
that I didn't get all the perks in the world.
But I tell you what if when you work your
entire life to be an executive in government, these are
the perks that come with the job. The contract runs
out in August. So he either had the choice to
take the six months and walk out the door. He's
chosen to go and leave. The contract ends in August,

(41:27):
and that's what's happening.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
Yeah, Katie.

Speaker 5 (41:30):
It's also not the only question that Jared Maylee as
the Deputy Chief Minister, couldn't answer in estimates yesterday. So
that was a big one that we thought, well, hang on,
this is very strange. It's, you know, why can't you
give us the responses that we would expect a government
to be able to provide in estimates and that level
of detail, which is what you know Matt's asking Josh
about now. But one of the other questions we asked

(41:52):
was there were some travel expenses by Minister Maine by
Jared to Daily Waters, and both trips had the same
reason for travel, but both trips had in excess of
two and a half thousand dollars. I think the first
trip was like two thousand, seven hundred in other expenses.
This is not travel, this was not accommodation, and the
second trip had a similar price tag essentially of other

(42:15):
expenses that couldn't be explained by Jared in estimates yesterday.
I think two thy eight hundred, so over five and
a half thousand dollars worth of other expenses and I quote,
you know, people who are listening, I'm quoting with my
fingers at the moment, not related to travel, not related
to accommodation, which Jared mainly is. The deputy Chief Minister
yesterday could not answer in estimates. He could not even

(42:36):
provide some type of random figure of what that was.

Speaker 4 (42:40):
We've done calculations of what would that mean.

Speaker 5 (42:42):
Would it be a high car cost on the ground
that is an anomaly that's not included in the travel expenses.
So that's very strange and that's absolutely not what territories
expect from a government who said that they were going
to be accountable, open and transparent with taxpayer one hundred dollars.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, and he took that question or note, so we'll
get back, you'll get your answers in regard to that.
I mean, if you really want to go down this path,
who was the minister that went overseas on the junket
and cost territories ten fifteen thousand dollars taking everyone with them,
I mean.

Speaker 4 (43:10):
Colin people.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
The point is, the point is, Josh, it's not whether
they did or whether you did it. I think the
expectations from it. No one does public is it. You
know you paid well to have these jobs.

Speaker 5 (43:24):
High seventeen dollars on shady without my husband knowing on
our joint account. You know, Like, how can well come
and spend five and a half thousand dollars?

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Actually you cannot get on anything. Someone says, I'm traveling
down to the be Toloo, come and sit on the
plane with me. You go, no, I can't. I have
to pay for my seat. Because it's all about accountability.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Travels one is accounting every single dollar they spend.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
And you will get back and answer in regards to
what those other.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
I know what it was very well time and find
out their expenses.

Speaker 4 (43:55):
Bizarre.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
We are going to have to take a very quick break.
You are listening to Mix one O four nine's three
is the week that was? Well, that is just about
it for us this morning. A big thank you, of
course to Josh Burgoyne for joining us this morning.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
Thank you, Josh, Thank you Katie for having us.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Matt Cunningham, thank you so much for your time. Thanks
Wilfe and Selena you both thank you so much for
your time this morning.

Speaker 5 (44:15):
Katie and hope everyone has a great weekend when it
rolls around.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
Yeah, too good. It's this weather is absolutely glorious. It
is very nice, very nice, and remind you why you
love the Northern Territory. Right, Thank you all so much
for your time.