The Week That Was - 18th July 2025

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time for the week that was, and joining usaul
in the studio this morning. We've got Matt Cunningham from
Sky News. Good morning, that's owning w Good to have
you on the show. Now the Attorney General I late
call up this morning. Mary Claire Boothby, Good morning and
thanks for being in the studio.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning, ANGIEA listens, it's great to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
And of course the Independent Member for Johnson, Justine Davis.
Good morning to.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
You, Hey, Katie, Hey everyon.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Lovely to have you all in the studio. Now we
might kick things off this morning with the story that's
really made headlines right around the world, and that is
the fact that Bradley John Murdoch died during the week.
The notorious outback murderer died of terminal throat cancer, days
after the father of murdered British backpacker, Peter Falconio, made
an emotional plea for the killer to reveal where his

(00:45):
son's remains were. Now, Murdoch, sixty seven, had been transferred
from prison to palliative care at the Allas Springs Hospital
and died on Tuesday. And you know he'd previously undergone chemotherapy,
being diagnosed it was certainly my understanding that it is
still very much hoped that Murdoch has shared the location

(01:10):
of Peter's body, and that information may still be shared
despite the fact that he's now passed away. I'd spoken
to Northern Territory Police officer, former Northern Territory Police officer,
I should say, Collin Gwynn, throughout the week, and she'd
give us a sort of a bit of insight as well.
I thought that was really quite interesting, you know. I'd
asked her what kind of person he was, you know,

(01:32):
when she was when she was interviewing and him, and
she said she described him as as a psychopath who
loved to have control over others and sought revenge when
he felt that he had been wronged. But she said that,
you know, she never felt intimidated by him when she
interviewed him. She actually thought that when she did interview him,
you know, he was quite sort of scared and careful

(01:53):
in what he said. I just thought it was really like,
quite fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
I think, Katie, it is of course, really disappointing and
devastating for the family of Peter Falconio that, you know,
they haven't been able to get any more information, you know,
to put to put to bed what has been probably
a very horrendous time for them. I know that that
police investigation, like you mentioned, is still open, and you
know the government has increased the reward money as well

(02:21):
for anyone who can come forward. I think it's now
five hundred thousand dollars if you know something, come forward
to police, because of course you know that that family
needs to if there's something that can be done, we
just want to be able to do that for that family,
That's right.

Speaker 4 (02:35):
I thought it was interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
I mean, the.

Speaker 4 (02:38):
Death of Peter Falconio and the subsequent legal process happened
just before more time in the territory. So there's always
been as long as I've been here, sort of this question,
you know, did he do it.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Didn't he do it? Did he do it? Didn't he
do it?

Speaker 4 (02:50):
And I'd never really looked into the case that closely,
but I thought it was interesting over the past couple
of days, and particularly listening to Colin gwyn who was
on Sky and this week as well, and when you
listen to her, I mean I walked away from that
interview with absolutely no doubt that police got the right man.
And it's been interesting just looking at some of the

(03:11):
evidence that has been revisited in the past few days.
I read another article by Jason Walls on the ABC
yesterday where we're just going through the evidence that was
presented to the jury, and when you objectively look at
that evidence, it's very difficult to come away with any
of you other than one that Bradley John Murdock was

(03:31):
absolutely the man who killed Peter Falconio and abducted Joe
Anne Lee's and I think, you know, looking back now,
it's almost twenty four years. I think it's twenty four
years this week since that horrific incident happened. You can
only imagine what those twenty four years have been like
for Peter Falconio's family, but also for Joeann Lee's to
go through such an absolutely horrific, horrendous, terrifying ordeal and

(03:55):
then having miraculously escaped the clutches of a killer, to
then have you and your story for so many years
put under such scrutiny just must I mean, you know,
how she even functions is just incredible. And it was
interesting to hear Colin gwyn say that she's still in
close contact with both Joanne Lee's and the Falconio family,

(04:18):
and that Joanne and the and Peter Falconio's parents are
still close to this day, so you know, there's obviously
a bond that they share. But what those people have
been through over the last twenty four years would just
be nothing short of absolutely horrific.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
Oh smort On, Yeah, Yeah, I totally agree. It's just
a terribly sad, tragic story of whatever way you look
at it, and the I mean, I think it's also
really interesting to look back at the time when the
trial happened and the way that Joe and Lee's, as
you said, was treated throughout that trial and ongoing. It
feels incredibly unjust to her, and I agree, I don't
know how she she's incredibly song, very private person, incredibly strong.

(04:55):
But what the family must be feeling now and what
they've said they're feeling in terms of the loss self
hope of actually being able to know where their son's
body is, that just must be chreble and hopefully and
maybe maybe there will be more information, you know, because
it's so important that people have a sense of closure.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
In absolutely yeah.

Speaker 4 (05:14):
It was interesting when police announced the increase in the
reward just last month, and I think at the time
people were sort of wondering, what are they trying to
do here? But I think it's pretty obvious now what
they were trying to do, and that was that they
were trying to get Bradley John Murdock, in his dying days,
to give up to a friend or family the location
of the body, knowing that basically he would be gifting

(05:36):
them the opportunity to earn themselves five hundred thousand dollars
and in the process give the Falconio family obviously some closure.
So the statement that came out from Bradley John Murdock's
family was interesting, though that would indicate that that didn't happen.
But as Colin Gwyn and others have said this week,
I mean perhaps hopefully, maybe during twenty long years in

(05:58):
prison where there's not much to talk about, he has
given up to perhaps a fellow inmate, the location of
the body, who then you know, now that he's dead
and now that they would not be worried about retribution
or any loyalty, they might have ye come forward with that.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm really fascinated to see if that does happen, because,
as you've touched on there Justine as well. That closure
for the family, I mean, it's such you can't even
begin to imagine how they must have felt over this
whole period of time and for joe Anne Lee's and
it was it is just a story that continues to
captivate the world. And you know, I think when you

(06:33):
think of the Northern Territory and people really think of
these place as the wild wild West, and when that happened,
you know, I was a very very young media advisor
working for the police when that trial started, and like
I remember just thinking, oh my goodness, I cannot you know,
you cannot believe that something like this would happen. Where
have I moved to?

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Right?

Speaker 1 (06:54):
And you know, then you realize it's yeah, yeah, and
it's that's right. And now you know, it is still
again something that the whole world keeps a really close
eye on, and I find it fascinating the aspect as
well of joe Anne Lee's and how she was treated.
And even this morning I went through to see if
I could find any information on her today and whether

(07:15):
she has spoken to the media or anything. But as
she touched on like really private person and really hasn't
done a lot at all over the past twenty four.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Years, right from that very start. Yeah, and you can
imagine why, I mean, I would a horrific a deal
to go through exactly when you're traveling around the territory
and enjoying your life as you're a young person with
your fiance, and then this sort of stuff happens.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
Yeah, it has some you know, the treatment of Joe
Ane Lee's I think has some parallels with the treatment
of Lindy Chamberlain and both the media and Australians more
generally and how they've reacted to people, you know, who've
been through a tragic situation, and we have this expectation
of how someone's going to act when they've been through
something like that, and when someone doesn't fit that, because

(07:57):
how would you know, how would you know how you
would reacting like that happened to you. You've got no idea,
you know, if your baby was taken in horrific circumstances
like happened with Lindy Chamberlain, or if what happened to
Joeannlee's happened to you, how would you react? And you know,
for some reason, if people's reaction doesn't fit exactly the
stereotype that we think it should. Then suddenly, you know,

(08:18):
we start asking questions and suggesting that there's something untoward
going on. So for that scrutiny to be placed on
joe An Lee's for such a long period of time,
and over the past twenty four years, there've been documentaries made,
books written, films written. You know, this thing has been
scrutinized within an inch of its life, and her character
through that has been scrutinized.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Very unfairly, I think particular.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
I mean, that's exactly what I've been thinking about through
this story too, And I think particularly with women, when
women don't behave the way we expect them to, but
in these kinds of situations, then they just get maligned.
And that's what we saw happen with Linda Chamberlain, and
we saw happened to some extent with journalis to not
breaking down into his you know, in a mess whatever,
but you don't, so therefore there must be something wrong

(09:02):
with them, and that's really not okay. The media has
so much to responsibility to take around that, as does
the general public, you know, and I think it's really
important that we challenge that exactly as you've just done.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Then, Yeah, And the fact is nobody knows how you're
going to act, and you are in a state of survival.
You know, let's be honest, when you're being scrutinized by
the media, by the public in that way, you would
be in an absolute stage of survival and you have
just gone through the most traumatic event of your life
that nobody can imagine how that must feel. So look,

(09:35):
I really hope that Bradley John Murdock has revealed to
somebody where Peter Falconio's body is and that the family
is able to get some closure. But time will tell.
We might take a really quick break. There is plenty
to discuss this morning. We'll be right back. You are
listening to Mix one O four nine's three sixty. It
is the week that was. You are listening to the

(09:55):
week that was. If you've just joined us in the
studio this morning, we have got Matt Cunningham, Mary Claire
Boothby and Justine Davis. Now it has certainly been a
really busy couple of weeks, and we know that the
coronial inquest was indeed handed down will last week and
some further details come to life on the cost of
the long running inquest into the death of coomen Ji Walker.

(10:18):
Matt ran a story yesterday that said its cost police
more than five point five million dollars and the Department
of Attorney General and Justice one point nine million dollars.
That total seven point four It is a stark increase
on the cost of an inquest into the domestic violence
deaths of four Aboriginal women, which costs just under five

(10:40):
hundred thousand dollars. I mean, it is a phenomenal amount
of money. We'd sort of touched on it last week. Matten.
Then you've gone and done your homework, and I mean
looking at those costs, it's a huge amount of money.

Speaker 4 (10:56):
Well some of the homework, and the final billoud probably
be significant more because it doesn't include the Department of Health,
as we said yesterday, which was represented throughout the Colonial Inquiry,
and also doesn't include the cost for NAGA, which was
also there, which of course is funded by both the
ant and the federal government. So it's an enormous cost.

(11:17):
I mean, as we said yesterday, it's not like this
is an incident that shouldn't be thoroughly investigated, and it
needed to be, and it's not like that coronial inquest
didn't uncover some serious issues within the anti police force.
I do, though, question whether it needed to be an
inquest that ran for almost three years. It was supposed

(11:38):
to run for three months. It ran for almost three years,
and the costs, as you outline there, is significant, and
I do wonder whether the fact that it was drawn
out for so long in some ways only added to
the trauma of the family, only added to the angst
of the ant police force and the morale of the
ant police force. And I do question whether perhaps it

(12:01):
could have been done in a more efficient way that
would have still delivered an outcome and recommendations that could
have seen things change for the better.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yeah, Lookan, I agree, it's an incredible cost and an
incredible human cost as well in terms of the impact
on the community, on the family, on the police, on
anyone who's been involved. But I'm interested in what you
would have done differently, Matt Well.

Speaker 4 (12:27):
I've sat in many coronial inquiries that were run by
the previous coroner, Greg Kavanaugh and his counsel assisting Calvin Curry,
and they were often done quite I would say efficiently
is the word I would use. Over a week or
two of hearings, perhaps a bit more in a more

(12:48):
serious case, but I don't think that ever stopped the coroner,
the previous coroner, from delivering findings and recommendations. He delivered
some absolutely scathing findings of the Northern Terry Police. He
delivered scathing findings of the police in the case of
that eight year old boy at Boro Lula who they
had written off as a drowning when it was clear

(13:08):
that there had been foul play involved. He was scathing
of the police in their investigation of Sasha Green, the
woman who was killed in a domestic violence incident in
Tenant Creek. He was scathing of the Health Department in
various inquiries that he ran into the issue of petrol sniffing,
where they hadn't implemented recommendations. And then suddenly we were

(13:30):
in a case where I remember sitting in Greg Kavanaugh's
court where he was saying, we were looking at this
issue twenty years ago, and you the Health Department still
haven't implemented the recommendations I was talking about then and
here we are now. And he managed to do that
in coronial inquiries that were done with I would say

(13:51):
far less.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
I'm trying, And I know that sounds I know that
may not sound appropriate, but that's that is how it's felt.
It has felt like it's a bit of a sideshow
or I don't even know that side show is the
right word. And look, what I'm about to say might
be a little bit controversial. But I also think to myself,

(14:14):
if I was the family of any other loved one
whose life had been lost recently and there'd been a
coronial inquest into the death of my loved one, I
would be asking, does my loved one not mean as much?
Does my loved one? You know, why hasn't there been
the same degree of scrutiny or why hasn't there been

(14:34):
the same level of look into this? You know when
you talk about the four Aboriginal women who died to
domestic violence. And I'm not saying that there should not
be the level of scrutiny that there has, but that
is what I would be asking if I was in
that situation, Katie.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
And during estimates, we uncovered some of those answers about
the costs of these coronials, and we actually had to
take it on notice and go and dig to find
out some of that history and I think you've already
mentioned the five hundred thousand odds for the DV coronial,
and obviously that phenomenal cost for the Walker case. But

(15:09):
in the past, the other coronials that have all been held,
the average in the last twenty four to twenty five
year was under six thousand, one hundred dollars, So that's
a stark difference between the You know, when someone does
die and there is a coronial, they obviously do go
through a process and it's very important because everyone one
needs to know what happened and the family can then

(15:31):
understand that and also to the people. Everybody learns from it.
And of course every coronial does have a list of
recommendations that comes to the Attorney General and it goes
out to departments and there are learnings from that and
changes that can be made. But I think you know,
we've all seen over the last I think obviously the
whole case started six years ago, which is a very
very long time ago when you're talking, you know, up

(15:52):
to eleven million dollars. Who knows with those added costs
of the legals for health, legals for police and and
all the other witnesses that we don't know from Naja.
I mean that it's just absolutely phenomenal. We now have
those recommendations from the coroner and you know, it has
taken a long time to go through that, and now
government needs to go through all of those recommendations and

(16:16):
look at what we can do. There is lots of
work that has already been done over the last six
years since that very fair.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
And it should be absolutely thorough work. Do not get
me wrong. Some of what has been uncoveted has been,
you know, horrendous. It should absolutely be a thorough investigation.
There should be all of that work happening. I mean,
what recommendations are the government going to implement?

Speaker 2 (16:40):
And that's the work we've got to do, Katie. I mean,
like you've said on the show a number of times,
and most people who have seen it will know it's
six hundred pages long and it has taken that three
four years to prepare that recommendation. And so we don't
take these recommendations lightly. We will with the agency's work
through all of those cases. The Acting Commissioner, Martin Dole,

(17:01):
alongsidely and Little, who has worked in the Aboriginal Justice
Unit for a long time and now works over at Police,
They were really clear with the territorians that they have
already begun a huge amount of work when it comes
to the things that had been identified along the way
through the process, and this kind of just that part
of the coronial now draws to a close, or we've

(17:22):
had it handed down, and now the rest of the work,
I guess happens so that we can learn from this
and implement things that will actually make the whole system
better and for territorians as well.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yeah, and look, I think that's support. I think there
are things to learn when we look at there was
a lot of complexities in this particular coronial. It was
a huge cost. There's lots of reasons that we could
go into a lot of detail of why that happened.
I think it's really important, Katie, what you just said
that we don't You said this might be a bit controversial,
that we don't feed into this idea that some lives
are more valued than others. I don't think that's the

(17:57):
case in what happened here. And I want to say
really clear, I think the coroner worked really hard to
make sure that she had a robust inquiry and there
were many challenges along the way that were part of
what fed into that huge, huge expense. But the point
now is let's look at what needs to happen, and
I think let's not waste that money. Let's make sure

(18:18):
we act on those recommendations. I've read the whole report.
I've read the recommendations. You know, there's thirty three of them.
They're not controversial. The recommendations. The police have said similar things.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Many of them, I guess, weren't a huge surprise as
well to us.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
In fact, I mean, I think if people do read
and I really recommend that people read the findings. You know,
we've invested in it as a community. Let's see what
came out from this coronial. The findings themselves are much
stronger in my view, than many of the recommendations. The
other thing I'd say is that I appreciate, obviously the
government needs to go through carefully what those recommendations are

(18:55):
with the agencies and decide what to do. But let's
not be waiting for months like we have been with
the DV coronial to actually hear what recommendations are going
to be implemented.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
But just like the DV recommendations, that all of that
work has already commenced, like we we don't wait till
the end to then take action like that the DV Coronial,
like a lot of that, those recommendations were already in
place well before those those tragic deaths. But then of
course all the work since that time, because again that

(19:26):
one took a long time to come forward as well,
and so all of those actions are happening. But then say,
in the same breadth this new Walker Coronial findings and
the recommendations have been handed down, we have to make
sure that is what has been missed that hasn't happened
in that six years. That's already all that work that's
been done. And we take that really seriously, and like,

(19:48):
I just don't want to sit here today rushing and saying, well,
yes we're going to do X, y Z when we
need to be able to look at it to see
what's practical and possible, because what I don't want to
do is waste another eleven million dollars or another three
to six years trying to you know, work out what
we're going to do and waste time on it. We
just have to have to just get started. It's already

(20:10):
been started. There's a lot to be done still and
you know we're we're making sure that we can rebuild
the territory.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Can I just make it really clear for our listeners
this morning when we talk about these costs and we
talk about the amount of money, is it like it
is that all on legal fees or is it on
getting people two different locations.

Speaker 4 (20:28):
I mean, I think it's the total cost. It's not
just the legal Okay, I mean, I'm sure that would
make And there's no breakdown in the documents that have
been presented to the Budget Estimates Committee. It'd be interesting
to get that breakdown. Actually maybe I should ask for it,
but but yeah, that's the total cost. It's the total cost.
What's been what's been reported on is the total cost
for two departments, the Department of Attorney General and Justice

(20:50):
which is essentially the Coroner's office, and then the almost
five point five million dollars which is the normal the
cost for the Northern Territory Police, which you'd imagine would
be large largely legal fees. I don't have the breakdown.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Look, I do want to sort of stay on this subject.
And we mentioned the domestic violence Coronial inquest recently as well.
Just on domestic violence Earlier this week, we actually caught
up with Dawn House, they provide obviously a safe haven
to women and children, to say well, they had joined
us on the show and say that they are turning

(21:25):
away around two hundred victims a month, and just a
month ago in budget estimates, it was revealed, of course
that the Northern Territory government had acted six point five
million dollars which had been promised in twenty twenty one
to refurbish that shelter. So every day Anna had told us,
the chief executive, Anna Hison had told us that they're

(21:48):
operating at one hundred and ten percent capacity and forced
to turn people away.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah, and this is this is an absolute crisis when
we talk about and we've talked about, you talk about
this on the show all the time. I've talked about
for this is our real crime and safety crisis in
the Northern Territory DV. I look forward to in the
next sitting of Parlim. I understand the report's going to
be presented in relation to the response to the Coronial recommendations,
but in estimates, not just Dawn House, also Catherine Women's

(22:18):
Crisis Center found out that money that they had believed
that been promised in terms of essential infrastructure they weren't
going to get. They didn't get a phone called. You
know how much for catherinist crisis it was about three
point five million. I think that's something like that. That's
not precise, but that amount. And these are the these
are the services that are doing the frontline trying to

(22:41):
keep women and children safe. We have plenty of money
to invest in locking people up. Let's make sure that
we've also invest in keeping women and children safe. And
I think I just want to do a bit of
a call out. So this weekend it's the Grand Fondo
for anyone else no big bike ride. Darwin Family Law
sponsors any pollies that go in the five hundred earth
five hundred fifty k right, which I'm doing, and together

(23:04):
with the Member for Nightcliff, we're going to donate our
money to Dawn House because if the government won't fund it,
then we're going to pedal for it and we're inviting
anyone else to support that as well. So Dawn House
has a go Fundme page. It's it's horrific that they
have to call on the community to fund this when
it should be coming from government. But we're putting our
feet on the pedal to try and raise money for that.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Well, look, I think it's one of those situations where
people do start to question, you know, priorities and question
how money is spent. You know, I sort of think
to myself, I've got no issue with the government investing
money in making sure that women and children are safe,
particularly when they're in those incredibly dangerous situations. I've spoken

(23:44):
about this on you know, on numerous occasions as you
touched on there. Just it's you know, to think that
then I can't imagine how the staff feel then having
to turn people away, you know, going through the testing
that they do to determine how it risks someone is
and they're at extreme risk, and having to say to

(24:06):
them try calling these other locations.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
This obviously all came to head, you know, in the
last couple of months, and of course during the budget
estimates we looked at all this and Minister Carl, who
it was responsible for this, was very clear in how
this is all played out. And I just want to
go back a little bit in terms of explaining to
territories what is actually happening with Dawn House in particular,

(24:31):
and that is that you know, they were promised many
many years ago by the former Labor government that they
would invest in that new infrastructure that they need, and
that sat on the Infrastructure Program Works along with a
number of other promises that the former government made that
was almost like this big long wish list.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
I think, so you reckon, it's not happened because they
didn't do it.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Well, what I'll say is that when we looked at
that big long list, we're like, well, what are the
things that we can progress straight away? Because everybody is
ready to go. Government's ready to go, the organization is
ready to go, and at the time when we had
to make that decision, there was there was still too
many things that weren't ready to go with Dawn House.
So what Minister Carl has said, and she's met with

(25:14):
them several times, they're working really closely together to find
these solutions to make sure that there is money allocated
to them for the services that are so desperately needed,
to make sure that there is a proper business case
that they can get the money they need to be
able to build the right infrastructure that they need, because
we do you can't just build a couple more beds,

(25:34):
you need to build it properly. It needs to have
the right amount because you know, as we know, domestic
violence has been a scourge on our society for so
long now, it never really has been properly dealt with.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
So you say, now we are still going to receive funding,
but you need to look into how much.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
And what exactly the are we need to work with
Dawn House on what that looks like.

Speaker 4 (25:56):
You give them more than that six point five million dollars.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
You know we as a government. You've seen the action
we've taken to address all these really critical issues that
have been happening over such a long time. What I'm
saying to Territorians is that Minister karl is she is
working with Dawn House. We know that this is a
huge problem. We have to deal with it. We also
have to deal with the other side of things as well,
so that those women and children are not victims. And

(26:21):
of course you've seen the work we've done that space
as well, and so there's it's sort of like a
two or three pronged approach in terms of dealing with
this domestic violence. And we have to give the police
the powers, we need to give the courts the options
to be able to deal with the offenders and sentence
them and so that they're and you know that there's
treatment available for them. And then of course we need

(26:42):
to make sure that they're shelters for these women and children.
And so those conversations are still happening with the minister.
She's working hand in hand with them, and so I'm
expecting that, you know, we will be getting onto that
as soon as possible.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
Is she talking to Catherine Woman's Crisis Center as well?

Speaker 2 (27:01):
My understanding as she use, I mean, we're all in
Catherine this weekend, so you know she'll be down there.
And I've met with them as well and that service. Yeah,
I've also met with them here in Darwin when they've
been here, and yeah, there's look, there is domestic violence
has been increasing over a long long time, we said

(27:21):
before the election, and have done invested an extra thirty
six million dollars into the funding to make sure that
we have those services available. All of that work needs
to be worked with the people that are on the
ground doing that, and that's exactly what we're doing.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
We might have to take a very quick break, Justine,
just before we do. Where can people make a donation
if they want to.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
Yeah, if they. If you look up Dawn House has
a go Fundme Paige. So if you just look up
Dawn House go Fundme, you can go straight there and
make a donation.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Well, you are listening to the week that was in
the studio this morning, Matt Cunningham, Marie Claire Boothby and
Justine Davis. Now we are I'm just going to take
you across to a story that horrified listeners yesterday. Now
the ABC has got a little further detail this morning.
A thirty four year old man's been charged with raping
a child under the age of ten at a home

(28:11):
in Darwin's Northern Suburbs last month. In a statement, the
Northern Territory Police said they received a report of a
suspected sexual assault against a young child at a lud
Miller home on June fourteenth. Police said after further investigation,
officers were able to confirm that a sexual assault had
occurred and arrested a man the next day. Now, on

(28:31):
the fifteenth of July, detectives from the Sex Crime Unit,
Fugitive Task Force and General Duties arrested the thirty four
year old at a location in Yarrawonga detective seeing Is
Sergeant Toby Wilson said the police investigation into the incident
had been complex and confronting and involved a very young victim.

(28:52):
The alleged behavior exhibited against this child is nothing short
of horrendous. They're the words of the detective senior sergeant.
When I read this situation out on air yesterday, people
were horrified, and rightly so. It honestly makes you shudder.

(29:12):
Now we know that this person then appeared in court yesterday.
The thirty four year old was remanded in custody to
appear in the Darwin Local Court yesterday now, according to
the raporche by the ABC. In court, the man's defense
lawyer made an application for bail. She told the court
she accepted the allegations were very serious, but said it

(29:33):
was likely there would be extensive delays before the matter
could proceed. She said her client suffered from a mental
condition which required management with medication, but the judge was
swift to deny bail, saying the allegations against the man
were exceptionally serious and disturbing. The man remains on remand
and is scheduled to reappear in court in September. Now,

(29:58):
Judge Stephen Geary, and my opinion, absolutely doing the right
thing there. As a parent of a child that's a
couple of years older than that, I can't even wrap
my head around it. It is disgusting, disgraceful behavior, and
we do not have any tolerance nor time for it
in this community as far as I'm concerned. But unfortunately

(30:21):
things like this happen continue to happen. It's horrifying.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
It is absolutely horrifying. And like you, like, my youngest
is about to turn twelve, which is only a couple
of years older than that young victim, and it's absolutely horrific.
And unfortunately, in our society, this sort of stuff continues
and it's not acceptable. And I think what I took
away from the hearing process that's happening in the courts

(30:48):
is that the changes that we've made to those bail
laws with really strengthening them is starting to work. The
judges are actually looking at it and saying, well, if
this person is a risk to the community, then they
will not get bail. And you know that particular person
will not up here now until September, which means that
you know he's not out there are doing more.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
Stuff wouldn't have given bail prior to changing.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
You.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Well, we just don't know because the laws. There were
lots of people getting out on bail before, whereas now
this is only one example. There are many, many, many
other examples of horrific crimes that were happening, and previously
they were going out on bail to do the same
things over home.

Speaker 4 (31:26):
I'm not convinced that you changes are working as well
as you think they might be. There was some data
that has been presented to the Budget Estimates Committee as
well this week that shows that there are a lot
of people who are committing alleged violent offenses who are
still getting bail. And you know, there was one example
in the courts that was reported in the NT news
this week of a man who you know, stabbed someone

(31:47):
threat allegedly allegedly threatened a twelve year old girl with
a hammer and was given bail. So is is that
the system working.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
I don't have the specifics of that case, but.

Speaker 4 (31:59):
You can read it in the.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
The Well, the cases that I'm hearing about that are
going forward is that you know, there's I don't have
the numbers in front of me, but the number of
people that are not getting bailed now because of the
serious offenses has grown exponentially, and so that's that's a
lot of that's a number of people that are now
no longer out on the streets committing further crimes while

(32:21):
they you know, wait for their sentencing or wait for
their hearing.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
I mean, let's talk about what the end goal here
is to create a safe community in a safe territory.
And I mean, I don't know if this is what
you were meaning, Matt, but I agree, I don't think
the laws that are coming in are achieving that. I
think you touched on talking about what's going on in
the watchhouses at the moment. And we've heard from police
that police are some police are reluctant to arrest people

(32:46):
now because they because the watch houses are so crowded.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, that was what Nathan fin had said on the
show week and so.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
You know, I've been into the Palmestan watchhouse. It's not
a place anyone want to be, but it's designed for
very short term, you know, stays while people are being processed,
people are up that we heard in estimates people are
in there for up to fourteen days under lights, twenty
four hours a day. No privacy. When I went in
there there was women like it was it's terrible, no
outside space sometimes people waiting for up to four to

(33:13):
five days for showers, like it's completely inappropriate. I think
we heard from the police, the police union that they
think it's a tragedy waiting to happen.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Well, they're concerned about the safety of office, you know,
is what they'd said. And look, I think that there
will be a lot of people listening who don't have
a huge amount of sympathy if someone's committed a violent
offense in terms of them, you know, going to the watchhouse.
But like the issue is a bit a bit broader
in the sense that we need somewhere for people to

(33:43):
be able to go. And you know, no matter how
you look at this, if you've got a situation if
there are police they're not taking people to the watch
house who should be going to the watch house because
it's too full, well that'll certainly get victims of crime
incredibly angered. Thinking we'll hang on a second, what's then considered,
you know, like what would you not take somebody to

(34:05):
the watch house for? And I get what you're saying,
you know, like obviously the CLP is trying to strengthen
the legislation so that you're not seeing violent offenders released
on bail. But then the point that you're making there, Matt,
is a very concerning one. If somebody has allegedly threatened
a twelve year old girl, did you say with a hammer?

Speaker 4 (34:23):
Well, this is the case that was in the New
York I'm I'm just reling what was reported in the
newspaper this week. But there wasn't that particular case where
the alleged offender was given bail, So I mean that
the presumption is clearly against bail. There were changes made
again following Linford Fike's death that meant that we came

(34:46):
in line with the New South Wales and the judge
had to be satisfied there was you know, that there
wouldn't be further reoffending. And in this case I'm paraphrasing,
but in this case, I think the judge managed to
satisfy herself that there wouldn't be further reoffending by putting

(35:06):
in place bail conditions that the alleged defender had to
live on Bickerton Island and therefore wouldn't be in contact
with the people who he'd allegedly been.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
In confidence me in a similar situation, and I don't know,
obviously I'd have to go and read through this, but
I wonder with bail like that whether somebody is said
meant to be electronically monitored or whether there is any monitoring,
and whether it actually works in some of those.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Of the condition about bail is that if there is
no other way that they can be incarcerated, not say
here and Darwin. If it's a Darlin case and they
do you know, they are electronically monitored, they're supervised by corrections,
and so that sometimes can happen. But I guess the
point is here, and I just want to be really
clear with territorians is we don't make any apologies for

(35:57):
finding people who are doing the wrong thing out in
our community, breaking the law with serious and violent offend offenses,
and then putting them into a watchhouse. Now, it is
not ideal, it is not perfect, but we have a
system which is broken, which we have been spending our
time to fix through. We've had a corrections master plan
with brought on five hundred new beds, which was five

(36:18):
hundred beds that weren't there before that are now there.
There are now more than seven hundred people that are
incarcerated that were not incarcerated before, and we make no
apologies for that and those kinds of apprehensions and letting
them by making sure they go through the court is
what we will continue to do. When we then shift

(36:38):
over to okay, what happens next, That is when we
start dealing with the root courses, and that work has
already started because we can do it side by side concurrently,
and that is why we've talked at length at about
our Circuit Breaker program, working with families before they enter
the justicism, before they're out in the street committing serious crimes.
That is why we're sending kids back to school and

(36:59):
that we are putting the responsibility back onto parents that
if you don't send your kids to school, you will
be fined. And guess what, parents are sending their kids
to school, and therefore they're not being fined, which is
a fantastic outcome for kids because we need to address
those root causes. That is the concurrent work that we're doing.
But I want to be really clear is I make
no apologies for police being out on the streets and

(37:22):
arresting people who are serious and violence offences offenders and
then putting them behind bars so that they cannot go
out and do the same thing again.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
What do you think about someone who hasn't been found
guilty of a crime being under lights twenty four hours
a day for fourteen days, no access to a shower,
no access to outside space.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Our police are phenomenal. They do a pantastic job and
they don't go around, despite what you might think, arresting innocently.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
Our police have raised serious concerns though about the conditions
at the Palmestan Watchet.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
And I have said right from the start it's not ideal.
There are still challenges there, but we have to keep
doing this and we will keep finding those extra beds.
There's more and more beds comeing on literally everything.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
I mean, it's a situation though where we need are
aman center or we need something else here to deal
with this issue.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
And we've talked at length about the Corrections master Plan,
which is putting on more and more beds, and it's
a whole heap of things happening between the bear omer
sites and holts. Obviously we have alas springs and there's
other work camps around the territory and that work by
the Corrections Minister alongside of all of us as a
team working together continues and we'll keep finding those beds

(38:30):
and making that infrastructure available so that we don't have
people out in the streets committing more crimes.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
And I'm really interested in what the actual plan is,
not the plan about building more beds, not the plan
about locking more people up, the plan about what's going
to happen in the long term to make the territory safe.
Circuit breaker great, that's one program with one.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Program which has literally helped hundreds of families already in
its short existence, and so.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
That have to talk more about that. But what I
want to say is what's happening now to this government
about having the highest number of people locked up ever where,
the second highest in prison population per capita in the world.
I don't think that's anything to be proud of. And
what we all know and we seem to forget, is
that those people who are locked up come out of

(39:12):
prison again, and at the moment they're coming out of
prison having had no access.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
So you reckon they're not doing any programs or anything
in there. That's what you want the answer to, Yeah,
that's what I'm well, we.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Have talked at length about the programs that are available
within corrections and also outside of corrections, and I'm just
looking through my data because i don't know if I've
got that exact information, but it has been talked about
length that the amount of programs in terms of rehab, education,
domestic and family violence, alcohol abuse within prisons right now
is more than what it was.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
The issue is not about the amount of programs that
are there. It's about whether or not people people are
doing access and engage with them. And we hear from
corrections that people aren't able to do it because they
are so over understaffed and under pressure that they're not
able to support people to be engaged in this way.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
And you heard time and time again, especially on this show,
about the work the correction are doing to increase the
numbers of corrections officers to We got that other contract
in to be able to have more corrections officers that
are able to do those transports to hospital to the courts,
which then frees them up to be able to do
more work with those prisoners in in prison. And that's
exactly the what we've done. There are more of those

(40:17):
programs happening now today than there was last year, the
year before.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
In the begining about the number of people who are
engaging there's more people engaging in those programs, or there's
more programs offered, because the data I'm hearing is that
that people are not engaging in those programs. People on women.
I heard this week that women women prisoners, eighty nine
percent of women who are locked up are on remand
you know it's difficult for people on remand to be
able to access any kind of programs. Sometimes that by

(40:42):
the time they get to court if they're found guilty,
the amount of time that they would have been locked
up for, they've been locked up for longer waiting for
their waiting for their.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
And we've also told Parliament and instruments and also in
media that we are now looking at how we can
actually do those programs while people are because because why
are we fix the court systems which we know that
is taking too long to go through the system, because
there are such it's a huge demand pressure. Of course,
we need to look at the options for a man
as well, and that is absolutely on the table.

Speaker 4 (41:11):
Man though surely surely with well within their rights to
refuse to do any program.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
And that's why we're looking at that, because we want
to look at every option available. Like, if you're in
there anyway and you're waiting for your trial, why not
do a program. It's not going to hurt, is it?
Whatever it is, it's not like.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
I guess you'd be determining whether you feel as though
you're guilty or innocent. And if you feel like you're innocent,
then maybe you wouldn't. But look, we are Unfortunately, we're
going to have to take a really quick break. You
are listening to Mix one oh four nine's three sixty.
It is the week that was. Well, that's pretty much
it for us this morning. A big thank you to
all of our guests. Matt Cunningham, good to have you
in the studio this morning. Thank you, Bertie and of

(41:44):
course the Attorney General Marie Claire Boothby, thank you for
your time.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
Thank you andtel listeners. Can I give a shout out
to the new Bills bar at Atleyanol, which is actually
the new revamped Dollies. Yeah they are. It was named
after Paul's dad who's the owner. So it's really really awesome.
I haven't been there yet, but if you have some
time amongst all the events that happen this weekend, head
out and have a look.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, good stuff, well Justine Davis as well. Remember for Johnson.
Thank you for your time.

Speaker 3 (42:10):
Thanks Katie, Thanks everyone, and.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
You'll be riding in the Grand Fondo.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
Wish me luck, but I haven't even trained, but I
figure a bike. You just sit on it and you
move your leg I'll be right.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Good luck walking on Monday.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
We've got a number of competitors against you there too,
Justine

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Good stuff, Thank you all so much.