The Week That Was – 4th October 2024

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, a very good morning and welcome to the show.
And it is our very first week that was live
in the brand new studio and in that where do
I start? I don't even know which microphones what, so
joining us in the studio this morning, I think we're
going to Duran Young first from the labor party.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Good morning to you, Duran.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
Good morning Katie, and good morning to all your listeners.
It's wonderful to be here. And also congratulations to Justin
and Robin are for winning your seats. It's yeah, big
congratulations from myself. Ah, good to have you working alongside
both of you.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Good stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Good to have you in the studio, mate, thanks so
much for joining us. And we've also got Justine Davis,
our Independent and she is sharing a mic with Duran,
but I'm very pleased to say the microphone no longer squeaks.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Good morning to you.

Speaker 4 (00:45):
Hi, Katie.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Hey everyone, lovely to have you in this studio again.
And from the COLP we've got Robin Carl. Good morning
to you, Robin.

Speaker 4 (00:53):
Oh, good morning Katie.

Speaker 5 (00:54):
It's wonderful to be here and again and thank you
Darren for those congrats, and to Justin as well.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
It's been quite the month or two.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, it was probably a good time for me to
be on leave, to just let everybody settle down a
little bit after the election too, But Matt Cunningham was
on leave and he joins us in the studio as well.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Good morning masks.

Speaker 6 (01:13):
This new studio a very different vibe. I've got to say,
will for you the last time I was on this.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Show, Yeah, it was all pretty intense, wasn't it before
the election?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
And we haven't We've had one week that was since
the election.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Then I've been away for a few weeks and obviously
now coming to your life from the brand new studio
and we've got a much higher desk and nobody can
sit at the moment, so it's actually like I'm the
bartender with you guys all standing around, but we won't go,
we won't get a drink, we won't do that. Now,
there has been so much happened, as always in a
week in the Northern Territory when it comes to the news,

(01:47):
and I might just kick off with the fact that
it is being reported quite widely this morning that people
accused of serious crimes in the Northern Territory maybe unable
to access critical legal services from next year, amid a
Seville funding crisis which has sparked grave concerns that innocent
people will end up behind bars. Now the Australian newspaper

(02:08):
and others reporting that lawyers at the Northern Territory's largest
government legal agency, NT Legal Aid, are preparing to wind
back criminal services from the end of the month, with
all adult contested mentions and hearings to be halted by January.
The move, which comes just weeks after the COLP party

(02:29):
took power over the Northern Territory government. They will throw well,
it will throw the region's already fragile justice system into turmoil,
with sources describing the cuts to services as the worst
we've seen.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Look, it's going to be it's a tough situation.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
I don't think there's any other way to put it,
and there is no doubt that everybody deserves representation. But
I do think that it's potentially an opportunity as well
to sort of look at who is being funded, which
services are receiving funding, and how we can make sure
funding is providing then the services that are required. I mean, Duran,

(03:06):
it is looking like like the Colps maybe not going
to kick in the extra funding.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
That the Labor Party was prepared to. What do you
make of it?

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, look, this is a very concerning development and Legal
Aid have come out and said that, you know, their
demand is quite high right now. On two occasions when
we're in government from twenty twenty to twenty twenty four,
Legal Aid did come to us as government requesting that
extra funding to top up so they could meet that demand.

(03:34):
As in twenty twenty two we roughly gave about two
million dollars to Legal Aid and then again they came
back in twenty twenty three and really roughly gave around
two million dollars. So we as an opposition Labor government,
are very concerned about this. We know that everyone deserves

(03:56):
the right to have representation when they touch the justice system,
and we are calling on the CLP government to come out,
come forward and provide that funding to Legal Aid to
ensure that our most vulnerable people and that people that
need that representation in court get it and have the
opportunity to be represented in court. Otherwise potentially we are

(04:17):
going to see innocent people potentially being locked up if
they are not being able to get representation, and that
we do not want to see that in the territory.
We don't want to see that anywhere in Australia and
we're calling on the CLP government to come out and
provide that extra fund.

Speaker 6 (04:32):
Look what Duram is driving the extra demand on NT
legal Aid that required them to need the extra funding.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Oh look, well, obviously they've come forward and said that
they've got extra clients that have been in touch with
the justice system. So obviously they don't have the resources
at the moment to cover that demand.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
But what we're asking crime Ultimately.

Speaker 6 (04:59):
The big issue is the we've seen the absolute dysfunction
at NAGA over the past two years that hasn't been
appropriately dealt with and so NAJA has continued to receive funding.
And I've asked the former Attorney General's office here and
the Federal Attorney General what they're doing about the situation
at NAGA where the dysfunction at that organization has meant
that their clients, some of the most vulnerable people in

(05:20):
the Northern Territory, have gone unrepresented and NT Legal Aid
has had to pick up the slack. And we're seeing
now the consequence of the inaction from both levels of
government about what was happening at NAJA now spill over.
The extra burden has been placed on ant legal Aid
and they are unable to keep up. And so we
are now in this calamitous situation where Legal Aid is saying, well,

(05:41):
come January, we're not going to be able to represent anyone.

Speaker 4 (05:45):
And this is because I.

Speaker 5 (05:46):
Think there's another aspect to that as well, Matt, and
that is that the current agreement that's in place was
actually negotiated by the previous Labor government and the national
Agreement that was just recently signed at the Cabinet National
Cabinet meeting that was attended by the Chief Minute was
developed by the previous Labor government. And so our focus
is very much on renegotiating that with the federal government

(06:07):
because there is an inadequacy in it and we do
actually have to look at.

Speaker 4 (06:10):
That needs based funding.

Speaker 5 (06:12):
And you're right, if we hadn't had this escalation in
crime and we didn't have the dysfunction in NAJA, we
would not probably be in this situation with the Legal
Aid Service.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah, so I'm calling on so are you going to
commit to funding now that's needed for legal Aid because
right now Legal Aid have come to the CLP government
and they're asking for that extra funding because right now
what we are going to see is people not being
represented when they go to court, which will mean that
potentially innocent people will potentially get locked up. Well, we

(06:42):
have a rafter talking about now we're legal later at
We did in our last budget commit nine million dollars
towards legal aid. I believe the Commonwealth it was around
eight million dollars. But legal aid have come to so.

Speaker 5 (06:54):
The Attorney the Attorney General is in discussions on this
matter with a range of people.

Speaker 4 (06:59):
And it is a really quick matter.

Speaker 5 (07:01):
And as everybody in the committee would know, we have
a very clear focus on actually addressing the issues in
our community, primarily around that antisocial behavior and crime. And
if we get this working the way we want it
to be working, where we actually can intercede much earlier
in people's lives, the ultimate goal is to have a
reduction in crime, a reduction in the pressure on these services.

(07:23):
So the commitment that's been made as we will work
with the federal government to look at how we can
negotiate renegotiate the funding and certainly discussions will be ongoing.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
I mean, does there also though need to be some
further discussions about the way in which funding is delivered
and ensuring that that funding is doing what it's intended to.
And that's more going back to, you know, to the
situation with NAGA and in terms of any of that
funding that is sort of provided in this space.

Speaker 6 (07:51):
Well, the issue, as far as I could see it
was that the funding comes from the sorry Justine, the
National Legal Assistance Partnership, right from the federal government to
the States and territory, so it comes up to the
Northern Territory which then distributes to NARJA. The problem was
that when things were going wrong at NAJA, there was
this buck passing game that was going on between the

(08:12):
territory government and the federal government about what was going
to happen with that funding. Given NAJA was unable to
provide the service it was being funded to provide, and
no one wanted to be the bad guy. The Federal
Attorney General's Office didn't want to be the bad guy
and pull the funding. The Northern Territory Attorney General's Office
didn't want to be the bad guys and pull the funding.

(08:33):
But it meant that you had NAJA continue to be
funding for a service it was unable to provide. Then
those clients who couldn't get the service they needed from
NAJA going over to Legal Aid, which then of course
needed more funding, and so the Northern Territory government was
giving them more funding, but it wasn't coming from anywhere.
So I mean, it's a total mess, Justine, what do
you make of it all?

Speaker 7 (08:52):
I think, first of all, I just want to say
that I want to, I guess, do acknowledgment of the
people who are actually doing the work on the ground,
all the lawyers and frontline legal workers who've continued to
do work through all of this time, and I are
now I think that are under very difficult circumstances at
both our major legal agencies here. I think, as Duran

(09:16):
just said, the issue right now is that we are
facing a situation where there may be people who are
not going to well, there will be people who are
not going to be represented, you know. As Robin said,
the CORP has come in on a mandate of addressing
you know, the really serious issues that our community is
facing around justice and crime. Part of that, I know
is going to be a proposing change legislation, sorry, which

(09:38):
is going to be putting even more pressure on these
legal systems and if that isn't accompanied with the resources
and funding to make sure that they can operate properly,
then we're going to face a real disaster. And you know,
I've done work in this space. I'm really afraid about
what we're going to see in terms of the possible outcomes.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
I mean, and look, we're talking a lot.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
We are talking about the potential of innocent people ending
up behind bars. But can I also say I wonder
whether it is going to delay cases in some situations
for victims where they're not actually going to see then potentially,
you know, justice when there has been harm caused against them.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
And maybe I'm wrong, that's.

Speaker 8 (10:18):
Not a new issue, Katie.

Speaker 7 (10:19):
Yeah, the wait times for people, both people who have
your betterccupes of crimes and victims is incredibly long. It
means that actually the kind of justice that we're serving
here doesn't work.

Speaker 5 (10:30):
And it's a matter that's been escalating for a decade
now and that's the challenge.

Speaker 4 (10:35):
That we face.

Speaker 5 (10:35):
So five weeks in after having been sworn in as ministers,
as a team working together, certainly the Attorney General is
working very closely with Anti Legal Aid to look at
how we can actually assist them so we can make
sure that anybody who needs representation gets it. We're very
well aware of the challenges around NAJA and work is
being done in a tripoda manner to actually address those.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Look, we might take a very quick break.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
There is so much still to discuss this morning, take
a very quick break. You are listening to Mix one
O four nine's three sixty. It is the week that was.
You are listening to the week that was if you've
just joined us in the studio this morning. We've got
Duran Young, Justine Davis, Robin Carl and Matt Cunningham. And
it has been well, yet another really difficult week, I

(11:18):
think it's safe to say, and the issue of domestic
violence does not seem to be going away here in
the Northern Territory, we know that a man's been charged
with the murder of a young woman in Catherine. On
Wednesday afternoon, Northern Territory Police confirmed a thirty six year
old man had been charged in relation to the death
of a twenty two year old woman who was found

(11:38):
dead at O'Shea Terrace in Catherine on Monday. The man,
understood to be the victim's partner, has been in custody
since Tuesday morning. The alleged defendings also well, the alleged defender,
I should say, has also been charged with one count
of aggravated assault for an alleged separate historic incident against
the same woman. Now he was set to appear in

(11:59):
the car from local court yesterday. And the issues of
domestic violence in the Northern Territory, I mean, we have
all spoken about them so many times.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
It is not going away, but the.

Speaker 4 (12:13):
Level of.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Terrible, horrible violence is it's quite unbelievable, I think. And
I'd spoken to the Assistant Minister on the show yesterday,
Kate Thwait's about the situation and had also again asked
the Federal minister because it's something that both the former
Labor government and now the COLP government have been pushing for,

(12:38):
is the needs based funding when it comes to domestic
violence in the Northern Territory. But I can't help but
feel when it comes to domestic violence in the Northern
Territory it's a bit of an issue for the federal
government where we are we're seen but not heard or
you know, the horrible deaths that we are seeing really

(13:00):
aren't you know, aren't getting the attention of not only
federal politicians but more broadly across Australia as what they
would if they were happening in a suburb, you know,
in Sydney or in another part of Australia.

Speaker 5 (13:16):
Without question, and firstly, this was a horrendous, horrendous incident
and I absolutely extend my deeper sympathies to the family
and the friends of this young woman who was so
tragically taken away from them. The reality is that things
happen in the Northern Territory that aren't even a blip
on the radar on the East or the West Coast,

(13:38):
and if similar things were happening in those areas, it
would be national news day after day after day. And
so that is why we are absolutely committed to working
to make sure that we do have funding to address
those issues. We've made the commitment through the election, which
we've reinforced for the one hundred and eighty million, and
it's been one of the first priorities I've had with
the Department of Children's and Families. Domestic violence is something

(14:01):
that's very personally important to me and we have already
started working on an agenda of how we can actually
look at how we deal with those perpetrators. In particular,
certainly in our new raft of legislation, we're looking at
making sure those violent offenders are not released on bail.
We don't see them out there in a position where

(14:21):
they can actually once again go on harass, attack and
in this very tragic circumstance, allegedly.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
Kill their partners.

Speaker 5 (14:30):
So we really, absolutely one hundred percent are committed to
actually addressing this issue.

Speaker 7 (14:37):
And I just want to echo what Robin said that
you know, this is another tragic incident killing on top
of so many that we've seen here, and I know,
you know, for all of us, we would all be sending,
you know, our care and our condolences to everyone who's

(14:58):
affected by this. I was really so happy to hear
the COLP say they were committed to that one hundred
and eighty million dollars that plan that have been developed
through you know, long consultation with experts in the sector
as well as the government. I'm still really curious about
what that actually means from the CP, what are you
going to do with that one hundred and eighty million dollars?

Speaker 8 (15:19):
Are you going to be implementing the plan that was proposed.

Speaker 5 (15:22):
So basically what we're doing at the moment is working
with the team in the department, because I think one
of the most important things you have to do is
talk to the frontline workers who are going to be
tasked with this work. And my first priority as minister
was to actually go and meet these people. And in
the next couple of weeks, I'll also be traveling to
our regional areas to meet the teams in those places

(15:43):
as well, to actually hear from them what they're dealing with,
what would work for them, and how best we can
actually help them address this very horrendous situation. And I
think we know when we're talking about crime, you know,
which is sort of the heading all of this comes under.
We know the information that the vast majority of our
police resources and our present system are taken.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Up with domestic domestic violence rated incidents.

Speaker 7 (16:08):
So really, if we want to address this issue of crime,
this issue of women being killed, that's where we need
to be putting our resources and focus, and we need
to be doing it in a really smart way.

Speaker 8 (16:19):
We need to be doing it in a way that
we know is going to work.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
I mean, even when we speak to the Northern Territory police.
Earlier in the week, I was speaking to the Assistant Commissioner,
Matt Hollandby and and if I remember correctly, he'd said
between seventy and one hundred callouts a day. I believe
it is to domestic violence incidents.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
You know, it's horrific.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
It is an it's an absolutely horrific situation that we
are in. I don't have all the answers, but I
know that there are people that certainly work in this
sector who have you know, who have got.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Some pretty solid evidence.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
I would suggest of ways that we can work on
this serious issue that is impacting across so many different
areas I feel in the Northern Territory, and I don't
know how we get more serious about it. I do
feel as though it is an area that we do
need some federal support, and that's something that you know
that we've been that we've been calling for for quite

(17:10):
some time. I will say while the Assistant Minister didn't
rule it out yesterday, she certainly didn't rule it in.

Speaker 6 (17:17):
And I heard a bit of that interview and I
thought she was quite dismissive of some of your questions
around those issues, given how serious it is. I mean
to give you an idea of how overwhelmed the frontline
workers are in this space. Look at the incident a
couple of months ago where a woman was killed in
a lack and you had someone from territory families who

(17:37):
went to police a day or so, not a day
nine hours before that incident happened to try and ring
the alarm bell and police were too busy to get there.
And I genuinely believe they were too busy to get
there because that figure you mentioned there seventy two one
hundred callouts per day for a police force of less
than two thousand officers. You wonder how they managed to

(17:58):
get to anything else in any level of time.

Speaker 5 (18:01):
So, and that's why we have to talk to those
frontline workers, because they have some really good ideas about
how we can approach things differently. And giving them the
opportunity to actually feed those through and take them very
seriously is really important because they are there, they are
seeing it that situation.

Speaker 4 (18:20):
You say to them, how could we have done this differently?

Speaker 5 (18:22):
What would have made a difference, What processes should there
be in place? They're the ones who know, and they're
the ones that we're talking to.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Look Unfortunately, it's not the only shocking thing that we've
seen over recent days. We know in Alice Springs last
weekend the issue of crime had once again flared up.
A police relaunching Operation Archer to crack down on youth
crime and ensure community safety. Now that operation began in
August and is made up of officers from well the
terg Dog Operations traffic units. But there was four offenders

(18:52):
allegedly broke into an east Side home and stole a
Toyota Corolla, drove it erradically through the CBD. Police then
launched to pursuit. I know that there was I'm not
sure whether it was. Yes, it was in that instance
as well, where a police officer had to be taken
to the local hospital to have glass removed from her eye. Again,

(19:15):
the issue of crime in Alice Springs doesn't seem to
be going away. We know, we've got plenty of police
there trying to work on this, but they are you know,
they're there when those incidents are happening. We've got to
try and stop this from happening in the first place.
And I know that Matt the Chief Minister Leafanociaro had
made some comments earlier in the week with you saying

(19:37):
that you know, she is forging ahead with the legislative
changes that she promised throughout the election to try to
have an.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Impact in this space.

Speaker 7 (19:45):
Yeah, she was.

Speaker 6 (19:47):
Copying a bit of criticism at a press conference about
what she was planning to do. When we've heard organizations
like the Children's Commisioner's Office and Amnesty International and NAJRA
and others criticize the government over its plan to raise
the age of criminal responsibility and to strengthen bail laws
and introduce mandatory sentencing for assaults on police. She was
basically making the point that she believes she has a

(20:10):
mandate to do this. She just won seventeen of twenty
five seats at the last anti election. She made no
secret of the issue that she went to that election
with a promise to do these things and with a
promise to try and address some of these law and
order issues. So she certainly wasn't backing away from that
position that legislation is going to be introduced when Parliament resumes,

(20:35):
I think on the fifteenth of October.

Speaker 4 (20:37):
That's correct, So that's our priority absolutely.

Speaker 6 (20:40):
I think that there's no doubt Robin that you are
going to get a lot of backlash from certain areas
when it comes to you implementing this policy. I'm just
wondering how are you going to address that and whether
you're going to hold your ground when that backlash inevitably comes,
as it's coming already.

Speaker 5 (20:55):
I've never been one to back down from a commitment,
so absolutely, and yes, you're right, there's going to be
lots of people who've got lots to say, but the
reality is what we've had.

Speaker 4 (21:04):
In the territory is not working. I'm already working.

Speaker 5 (21:07):
With the Department of Children's and Families about how we
can manage and deal with those younger children, because, as
we've repeatedly said, it's not about putting them into prison,
it's not about putting them into detention. It's about circuit
breaking right at that point in time. But we are
one hundred percent committed to doing as and delivering on
our commitment to reduce crime and antisocial behavior in the territory,

(21:30):
and Deckland's law is absolutely going to be put to
Parliament in the very first week of sittings.

Speaker 7 (21:37):
Robin, I don't understand how lowering the age of criminal
responsibility is going to do anything to make any of
us safer. I completely agree that the COLP did come
in on a mand aid of addressing community safety. When
I was talking to people, that didn't mean locking up
kids or bringing back SpeI hoods. It meant doing something

(21:57):
to stop to sup the causes of crime, which you've
talked about as well, Robyn. I'm really concerned that we're
just like when we're talking about domestic violence, we're really
concerned and putting energy into doing things which are not
going to make any difference. They're not actually going to
make us safer. They're in fact going to make us
less safe, and they're going to harm children.

Speaker 8 (22:16):
So I think, and I just so one other thing.
I think the.

Speaker 7 (22:21):
Argument that what we need to do because there are
these you know, ten or eleven year olds falling through
the gaps that we can't we can't care for, can't intervene.
We have legislation already that enables intervention with us.

Speaker 5 (22:33):
You can't be selective when you listen to frontline workers.
You have to listen to all of the frontline workers,
not just the children's and families, not just the healthcare
So you also have to.

Speaker 4 (22:43):
Listen to the police.

Speaker 5 (22:44):
You have to listen to everybody who's involved in frontline work,
and the very clear message that we're getting from the
frontline workers in the police force is that they are
totally helpless when it comes to intervening in those younger kids' lives.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
And so whilst so I'm not going.

Speaker 5 (22:59):
To talk about the specifics of what we're going to do,
and I understand it's very easy to keep saying, oh,
but you can't put them in jail. I've said categorically
that is not our intention, and there are processes that
are being developed so that that is not what happens.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
But you're talking about you're not going to put them
in jail, But the reality is your policy is that
you want to lower the age of criminal responsibility from
twelve year olds to ten year old kids that will
be in touch with the justice system, which will mean
that we will see ten and eleven year old kids,
children that are still in primary school being put in
front of a court system, having a criminal charge against

(23:37):
them which will hold against them for the rest of
their life and potentially end up in don Dale.

Speaker 5 (23:41):
Well, I think if these kids were actually in school,
then we'd actually not have the issues that we're having.

Speaker 4 (23:46):
That's one of the primary issues.

Speaker 5 (23:48):
We are not these kids aren't in school, they're not attending,
they're not getting some of these.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
Some of the kids are in school, and the reality
is that if a ten or eleven year old kid
does get in touch with the justice system, actually will
have a criminal charge against so much.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
But does have a duty of care.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
As the now Minister for Territory Family, so if kids
are out on the street and they're running a mark
and they are committing crimes, that she's got to do
something like something has to be done, and at the
moment it has felt for months, if not years, like nothing.

Speaker 5 (24:19):
One of the first things she was asked for an
explanation definition of what a responsible adult is. Where is it,
what does it mean, How do we assess that, how
do we decide where we're taking those children as responsible
And actually what it boils down to is a responsible
adult is a person in who the child's care resides,
So we just take them back to where they came from.

Speaker 4 (24:43):
So the responsible person is the parent.

Speaker 5 (24:45):
Or the guardian that they're living with, and that is
why we're seeing this, take them home, bring them back,
and the person who decides that is the person who
is the authorized officer, who in most cases is the
police officer who's found the kid on the street. So
we've got that's why we've got the revolving door. We
absolutely have to find a way to circubreak that and
that's what we're discussing.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Do you think that Territory Families have been performing the
role that is intended in the recent years when it
comes to these kinds of situations.

Speaker 5 (25:15):
I think the challenge for them was that their role
was split across three areas that was not their core business.

Speaker 4 (25:21):
And so they had housing, they had.

Speaker 5 (25:23):
Youth Justice as well as children's and families responsibilities. And
whilst those things intersect, when you're recruiting staff to those roles,
generally they'd be quite different. They'd be a different group
of staff that have a different set of skills. So
the work that was being tasked to this group of
people was not their core business. And I have to
tell you, the feedback that I've got from the team

(25:45):
that I've met so far is that they are so
so happy that they can actually now focus on what.

Speaker 4 (25:51):
Their core business is. That doesn't mean we won't be
working with youth.

Speaker 5 (25:55):
Justice, and it doesn't mean that we won't be working
with those other areas. In fact, there's been a very
deliberate structuring of departments and ministries so that we will
be forced to work together and break down those silos
as they have existed in the past. But it also
means that the primary focus of caring for that child,
making sure they're safe, will be front and center for
children's and families.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Obviously, the raising of the criminal age has been the
one that's really you know, received the headlines, see it
always has, But there are a lot of other legislative
changes looking at coming into place. One of those is,
as understand, mandatory sentencing for the assault of frontline workers.
Is that, like, do we have much of an idea
at this stage how that is going to work?

Speaker 5 (26:35):
So minimum mandatory sentencing, and there is already in the
legislation some components of that, so it's just a refining
of that to make it clearer and to make it
easier for the.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
Courts to see what is required what is not required.

Speaker 5 (26:48):
So I think when people see what we are putting forward, they'll.

Speaker 4 (26:52):
Go that makes sense.

Speaker 8 (26:54):
And when will we see that?

Speaker 5 (26:55):
Robin Well, the legislative legislation will be coming to Parliament
in the first sittings.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
Looks like there's going to be quite a bit of
legislation coming to Parliament in the first sittings. On a side,
I don't understand that you all went to like parliamentary.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
School to learn how to do things? Do you reckon
you meet it? With all that legislation, they.

Speaker 6 (27:13):
Clearly learned how to be nicer to one another. Will
be because they were doing a much better job than
the last lot.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
We actually got messages coming through and screaming, I've got
on high kdie. What a change to listen to the
week that was without everyone yelling over the top of it.

Speaker 5 (27:27):
The first thing, what was the most important thing in
parliament for all of us?

Speaker 4 (27:32):
And we all went professionalism?

Speaker 5 (27:34):
Do you know what?

Speaker 2 (27:34):
That's good to hear? That is a good thing?

Speaker 7 (27:36):
And I think, I mean, I think, you know, we're
kind of laughing about it, but actually I think it's
really significant. If our elected representatives can work well together
to have good decisions rather than yelling at each other,
we're going to end up with a much better territory.
And I really feel like, you know, we've been lucky
that almost half the.

Speaker 8 (27:51):
Parliament is now new.

Speaker 7 (27:54):
We've got a real chance for a cultural reset in
how we do politics here, and I think we can
do it.

Speaker 8 (27:58):
I mean, I don't know what you think absolutely.

Speaker 5 (28:01):
I know we have a little bit of a chuckle
about going to Parliament School, and I certainly on that
day went I'm off to Parliament School now darlinge at school.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:11):
Well, I think it was great.

Speaker 6 (28:12):
I think the three of you have shown in half
an hour that it's possible to disagree and challenge one
another without screaming and calling one another names. And we
just like if anyone who watched question Time over the
past I don't know, for forever, would watch that hour
and we don't see much of it. You said a
little snippet. Most people see a little stippid on the
news of you lucky. If you sat there and watch
the whole hour, most people would be absolutely horrified.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Well, you'd actually be quite disgusted if you heard your
children speaking to other kids in that way. You'd be
pretty disgusted by some of the language that we'd heard,
you know, over recent years.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
And I get it. You know, I'm someone who gets
very passionate.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
I think everybody in this room does on different topics,
But like you said, Matt, we can do that and
respect each other and you know, hopefully do it in
a constructive way.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
Time will tell.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
Let's take a very quick break though you are listening
to MIXONO four nine's three p sixty.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
It is the week that was in the studio.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
We have got from the Labour Party, Duran Young, We've
got Justine Davis the Independent. We've got Robin Carl, minister
and member of the COLP, and Matt Cunningham from Sky News.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
And I'm very pleased to say.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
I've not taken a sofair at all this morning in
the new studio, So happy with myself on that. Now
there is a lot to discuss today and we know
that the Central Australian Aboriginal Congress earlier this week acknowledged
the new territory government's commitment to addressing the high crime
rate in Alice Springs, but the Health Organization has warned
that winding back alcohol supply regulation will have the opposite effect,

(29:41):
leading to a waive of alcohol related domestic violence, assaults
and social disorder. Congress CEO Donna Rchi said our Aboriginal
Board of Directors is also concerned about the levels of
crime in Central Australia. However, there's overwhelming evidence that regulating
the supply of alcohol, including through a floor price, reduced

(30:02):
takeaway trading hours and the police auxiliary liquor inspectors, is
a highly effective way.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
To reduce crime.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
Missa GI pointed to official government figures which show that
the regulations introduced in Ala Springs in early twenty twenty three,
including the two takeaway free days, was associated with a
considerable reduction in alcohol consumption in the town and a
major fall in domestic violence. Look, I think it's always
a tough juggle when you talk about alcohol and when

(30:31):
you talk about restrictions, when you talk about changing alcohol legislation.
But we also know, based on what had happened early
last year, what the ramifications can be. If you make
changes to alcohol legislation and don't have a plan in
place really to support I guess the possible blow up.

Speaker 5 (30:53):
I think one of the first observations I'd make is
that most of the reports I've read, when they use
their measure of re reduction in amount of alcohol consumed
looks at volume. What they don't take into account is
the fact that what we've seen and I've seen this firsthand,
certainly in my previous role with the clinic in Palmerston,

(31:13):
is there's a shift in the type of alcohol that's
drunk and a move to spirits, which is a much
higher alcohol content. So you might reduce the volume, but
you're not necessarily reducing the levels of intoxication. And if
it was truly working, we would not be having this
escalation of domestic violence incidents. We would not be seeing

(31:34):
the assaults that we're seeing.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
So we may be seeing, for.

Speaker 5 (31:37):
Reasons that are not clear, some reduction in presentations, for example,
to the Alice Springs Hospital. I don't think you can
say that at Royal Darwin Hospital, certainly can't say it
at Palmerston Hospital. So I think that it's a complicated issue.
And the one thing that I learned firsthand was that
the cost of alcohol is irrelevant because money is not

(32:01):
the issue about whether you can afford it or not,
because most of the people we're talking about actually do
have the ability to find the money to purchase the alcohol.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
So it's a much broader.

Speaker 5 (32:11):
Issue than that, And the reality is we're also impacting
the entire community.

Speaker 4 (32:17):
So the alcohol free days are working really really well.

Speaker 5 (32:19):
You're right, So we're looking at how we do that,
and if we're reducing the floor price, we've got work
being done across departments such as the Department of Children's
and Families to address those root causes, look at why
these things are happening and how we can actually stop
them at their source.

Speaker 6 (32:37):
I think what's required, Katie, I think is a really
clear eyed, objective, nonpartisan assessment of what works and what doesn't.
And I think that's been missing the whole way through.
If you look at the floor price, I think there
is a body of evidence that suggests it has had
little or no impact. And I say that because when

(33:00):
it was brought in, which I think was in twenty eighteen.
If you remember, in twenty sixteen, the Labor government came
in and they removed the permanent police presence from bottle shops.
In twenty eighteen they returned that police presence in the
form of palis at around about the same price they
introduced the floor price. We saw a drop at the
time in Alice Springs in alcohol fueled assaults and emergency

(33:23):
department presentations, but in Darwin and Palmerston, when there was
no other measure, it was just the floor price that
had been introduced, we saw no fall. In fact, I
think we saw a slight increase and that increase has continued,
and so I think that that would point to evidence
that backs up Robin's argument that says that the floor
price is not having an impact when it comes to

(33:44):
problem drinking, and we need to be clear about how
we measure it, because I think the goalpost always get
shifted when I remember asking Natasha Philes, who was the
Attorney General at the time when they were bringing back
the BDR and doing all these other things, how it
was going to be measured, and pushing it and saying,
are you going to measure on alcohol fuel assaults and
emergency department presentations? Which was the same measure that they

(34:06):
used the claim success of the BDR in the first place,
and then quietly stopped talking about it when those measures
went in the wrong direction, and I saw it. I
got it, you know, an unconvincing yes. But I think
that they're they're the key figures that we need to
look at because alcohol consumption's going down, but we're still
seeing alcohol related emergency department presentations go up. Well, then

(34:26):
it's not wor.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Getting alcohol getting their hands on alcohol and I know
it's like there is no doubt that alcohol is a
really difficult one, Like it's hard to manage because you've
got to you know, you're managing the expectations of normal
people or you know, people who don't have an issue
with alcohol, wherever they may be from wanting to be
able to enjoy a drink, whether they live on community,
whether they live in the northern suburbs.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
No matter where they are.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
So you know you're juggling that, but you're also juggling
what is a hugely significant issue in a negative way
for other people, and.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
You know it.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Has it's some of those measures also have a big
impact on things like tourism, on things like business in
a lot of different in a lot of different areas
in Alla Springs, for example, on those days where it
is takeaway free. And I know the community has been
quite supportive in terms of having to do what needs
to be done to try and sort the concerns around crime.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
But there's no doubt. It's like I think, no.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Matter what changes get made when it comes to alcohol legislation,
you're never going to keep everybody happy. But ultimately what
we all want to see is a reduction in the
misuse of alcohol where there is harm associated.

Speaker 5 (35:36):
Absolutely, and I think one of the challenges that everybody
faces is that there is very much a view in
the community that the majority are being held to account
for a minority issue. And that's certainly what I got
on the doorstep around a range of issues. Why are
we being punished? And that was the word that people use.
Because there is a small group of people who are

(35:57):
having challenges, Surely we can look at what's creating those challenges,
and that's where we're focused.

Speaker 4 (36:03):
We actually have to look at why this is happening.

Speaker 5 (36:06):
We need to know why these people are in these
situations and how we can address that. Because if we
just keep masking it by saying, oh, we've got the
floor price and people are drinking volume wise less, so
therefore it's okay, then we're actually going we're not going
to look at the actual real issue.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
I think.

Speaker 6 (36:22):
But I think I think people generally would be willing
to be inconvenienced in some way. I've got no problem
with the floor price. I've got no problem with the
band drinker register if they work just exactly.

Speaker 7 (36:33):
Right, Matt, I think what you said earlier is exactly right. Matte,
we need the evidence, we need to be smart about it,
know what's going to work. It is a crisis. It's
not that I think we talked about this on this
show before. It's not that alcohol causes violence, but it
totally contributes to violence. When we talk about, as we
did earlier, the number of women who've been killed here,
we know that alcohol is a contributing factor. We need

(36:54):
to do something about it, but we need to do
something that works, and we can't.

Speaker 8 (36:57):
There's not going to be a one one nothing that we've.

Speaker 5 (37:00):
Done so far as impacting that end result. Yes, the
thing that we really want to be focusing.

Speaker 7 (37:05):
And although we hear from people like Donichi that it
has had an impact and they're concerned about what might
happen with these new proposals, you know that. I think,
Matt You're right, we need to have really good data,
but we also have evidence or information for people on
the ground doing this work that are saying, we're really
worried about what this is going to mean.

Speaker 5 (37:24):
And I argue in Alice Springs and the work that
Donna chi Archie has done is great in respect of
addressing some of the root causes. So certainly Congress has
worked around that, but again, the reports are based on
something that isn't necessarily reflective of the impact of the
alcohol being drunk. And I have to say Alice Springs
Hospital and the NGOs who work in that sector in

(37:46):
Alice Springs have done a huge amount of work around
looking at the root causes. So I would argue that
the reason we're seeing reductions is more related to that
than the actual alcohol consumption.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, I mean it's look, alcohol is something we've spoke
about so much on this show, and we've sort of
you know, I guess it's you know, people can use
different types of evidence to support your argument no matter
what you're arguing.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
To some degree.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
There are other measures, though, that are in place or
that haven't been in place, that people are waiting to
see reintroduced. I mean, what's going to happen with the
BDR is something we get asked about. But also with
the two kilometer rule, that is something that had been
in place and then seemed to very much lapse and
you know, had changed. So is that also something that's

(38:33):
going to be looked at in the coming weeks, Robin.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
So absolutely so. During the election campaign, we committed.

Speaker 5 (38:38):
To doing a review with a BDR to see how
we can make it more effective. Is it working, where
is it working, where is it not working? And the
two kilometer or is something that comes up quite consistently,
and we're looking at how we can actually make that
more effective. Because if police have greater powers to actually
deal with that, deal with antisocial behavior in those in
the park that's out the front here for example, then

(39:00):
we can actually then.

Speaker 4 (39:02):
Start to see a very real impact on behavior.

Speaker 5 (39:04):
So if you can intervene at that point rather than
at the point where things get a little bit out
of hand, then we should start to see and that's
what we're absolutely intending to see, a reduction in the
incidents of violence and more importantly, from my point of view,
the incidents of kids suffering from that environment that they're
growing up in.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
Look, just going back, Yeah, I'm very concerned about the
flaw price being changed. Obviously, Congress have come out and
not supporting this change. I think, you know, we saw
what happened last time when a government went against that,
and you know, I'm here to admit that that was
the former government, including the federal government. We saw that
huge impact that that had on Alice Springs and I think,
you know, we should be listening to community organizations such

(39:48):
as Congress that they work on the front line when
it comes to issues with people that are alcohol dependent.
So I think scrapping it could have a real consequence.
It means people may be able to buy more alcohol,
which will have a bigger impact on communities. But also
like we need to address the underlying issue of people

(40:09):
that have a problem with alcohol, and that goes back
to investing in our communities, creating community based policies that
what community wants it governments are working with that. We've
seen that I've done a lot of that work with
the previous government with some of the local decision making
agreements that we rolled out across the West Daily region

(40:32):
with some of the homelands for example, we're seeing a
real impact of local people getting work upgrades to housing
that we haven't seen any upgrades since the early nineties.
Men's sheds and women's sheds are starting to pop up,
so investment in the school out there. So that's the
real underlining issue where we need to start addressing what

(40:54):
communities want and working with communities based on their aspirations.

Speaker 6 (40:58):
That what's the people in in What Air and out
in West daily one. As far as alcohol goes and
controlled alcoholic like, do they want the ability to be
able to drink alcohol in a controlled setting in a
club or some sort of setup like that, or do
they just want a blanket band and no alcohol and
community at all.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Look, I understand the Cardoo Diminum Corporation are currently working
through with the Liquor Commission around setting up a club.
To be honest, I don't have those finer details of
where they are, but I understand they consulted with the community,
the traditional owners of What Air itself. We have around

(41:36):
twenty two to twenty three other clan groups that live
in What Air. So, for myself, the body of work
I was working on in What Air was actually looking
at decentralizing What Air itself, allowing people access back to
their homelands. It is a pressure point in What Air
and a lot of traditional owners talk to me about it.
A lot of people from other homelands talk about it.

(41:59):
The underlining issue is they don't have access to their homelands.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Look, we are going to take a bit of a break.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
You are listening to Mix one O four nine's three
sixty Our first week that was, I should say in
the new studio, I was about to say the last one.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
I'm not I'm not dropping you all.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
No, it was excellent obviously if you have just joined us,
it's been the week that was with durand Young in
the studio for the labor party. Good to have you
in the studio, mate, Thank you again.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Yeah, thanks Katie, and thanks for having me. And it's
been a wonderful morning. I've really enjoyed myself alongside Justin
and Robin and Matt getting back out there. I'm reconnected
with my constituency.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Good stuff.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Yeah, thanking them for giving me the privilege and honor
to be able to represent them as well. Yep, and
hopefully one of them catch a moon dollar, Barrett, you sign.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Up a million dollar fish and Justin are your electric
well yeah yep, so yeah, Justine, lovely to have you
in the studio this morning as well.

Speaker 8 (43:00):
Thank you, Katie.

Speaker 7 (43:00):
Great to be here, Great to have collaborative conversations with
my fellow parliamentarians and with Matt as well, and really
looking forward to what's ahead the next four years of
making this place better based on really good information and
good evidence and working together to fix things up.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
And Robin carl a newly minted Minister for various portfolios
for the COLP, thank you so much for your time
this morning.

Speaker 5 (43:25):
It's been a pleasure, and I'd actually just like to
say thank you for the patience of my constituents as
I've got things settled, because coming into Parliament and also
coming into some fairly hefty ministries has been a little
bit of a challenge, but we're getting there and it's
such an exciting time. There are so many good things
on the agenda and we're really looking forward to actually
making the territory what it should be and restoring restoring

(43:47):
that lifestyle that we so love. And good on Ken
for catching the ten thousand dollars ARRA on day while.
So that's not a lesson to everybody out there about
registering as soon as possible.

Speaker 4 (43:58):
I don't know what is.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Sure, you do it. And Matt cunning hand mate, thanks
for coming back.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
No worries movie.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Well, you and I both we were both looking at
retiring after the election.

Speaker 6 (44:09):
I had PTSD after our last week it was but anyway,
don't worry. A couple of weeks off to recharge the batteries.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Exactly oh good stuff.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
Well, thank you all so much for your time, and
we will get your back on the show, probably next week.
We'll be talking to you all very soon. You are
listening to Mix ONEOW four nine's three p sixty. It
is the Week that Was