Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now we know that the federal government yesterday released the
findings of their landmark study into age assurance technology. It's
one hundred days out from the implementation date for their
social media ban for under sixteens. Now, the study found
that it was technologically possible to assess a user's age
to a reasonable degree of confidence in a variety of ways,
(00:23):
but that every way included risks as well as shortcomings. Now,
the Communications Minister Anika Wells and the E Safety Commissioner
Julie Ingram Grant will in the coming weeks and reveal
those reasonable steps that those platforms are going to be
required by law to take to comply with this ban. Now,
(00:44):
the steps might require them to meet a certain standard
for accuracy or to enact certain safeguards for privacy, but
they will not require platforms to use any specific method. Now,
it's going to be interesting, there is no doubt about that. Now.
Joining me on the line is UNI Essays Associate Professor
(01:05):
Leslie and I Good morning to you, Leslie.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Good morning, Katie. How are you today?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah? Really good, lovely to have you on the show. Leslie,
tell us what you sort of know in relation to
the report that was handed down yesterday, and I guess
what you know about how some of this age verification
might work.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, there's multiple different methods that companies can use to
be able to assess age, and the report has actually
found that there's a degree of confidence that they'll be
able to do this effectively. There are some concerns by
the public in relation to privacy, image and data retention,
(01:48):
in secure capture pipelines and encrypto data transmission, spoofing, profiling, surveillance,
and digital footprint expansion, increased parent with bonsibility and monitoring
to try and support children. But I feel like it
isn't as bad as what we are thinking because you know,
(02:10):
basically the age verification, you know, if it's done well,
it collects a lot of private data. However, there's a
lot of private data that's already been collected. You know,
we do have algorithms that are occurring in the background
every time we are logging onto the internet or social
media's collecting that sort of stuff. So you know that
(02:33):
the algorithms can already identify how old we are based
on how quickly we type. You know, whether we are
typing with our thumbs or whether we're using one finger
you know, that's all collected and our friendship lists, our interests,
what we're looking at, what we're googling. So you know,
we have a lot of algorithms in the background that's
collecting that type of data as well. And we do
(02:55):
have you know, every time you open your phone, you
use it with you open your phone with face recognition,
So all of that private data is already out there.
So I feel like there's an overreaction in relation to
what is going to occur based on Yeah, companies collecting
this data for the reason of verification of age.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Well, yeah, like you said, when we're already using all
this technology as it is, I mean, we use our
fingerprint for different things on there, we then use our face.
As you've said, I guess when it comes to our kids,
you know, we all worry a little bit more about
them when they are on phones and social media, and
there are certainly plenty of risks that they face. I mean,
(03:42):
in your profession and some of the work that you do,
what would you say are some of those big risks
that our kids face on social media?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Look, I think social media positions children that's far greater
risk than age verification. So I'm in favor of their
span to support kids until we are able to educate
them effectively. I've literally just returned from the conference that
I went to last week where we actually had a
(04:14):
look at some of the risks. And obviously there's bullying.
You know, children at risk of being victims of bullying
on social media, where they are at risk of bullying
at school as well, but with social media they can't
escape that. The bullying can go into their homes. Aid
X is another thing that is a risk the children
(04:38):
are facing. Now. That's you know, the one of the
latest risks of sexual exploitation. And you know, I learned
at this conference that you know, the perpetrators are accessing
kids through minecraft, Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook, Messenger, WhatsApp like, so
there's a lot of social media platforms in which perpetrators
(04:59):
are using to access kids. Yeah, the latest thing is
sadistic online exploit exploitation, which is where perpetrators engage with
kids kids you know, will send them a nude or
some sexual in each of themselves and then they use
(05:22):
that to threaten children and control children into doing sadistic
acts and breaking the law. So you know, that's that's
very very new and very very worried, worrying them.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
It's crazy, like it is. It's terrible to think some
of the things that can be accessed. And you know,
like I'm really open with my kids about, you know,
what they should and should not do, and I was
having conversations with them when they were quite young about
you never ever sending photos of your body parts or
anything like that. And I'm sure there are plenty of
parents that have those conversations. But sometimes when kids wind
(05:57):
up in these situations that they really don't sort of
you know, they then don't know how to get out
of them and may not feel comfortable then speaking to
their parents or to somebody else to get that assistance.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And that's absolutely right, Katie. It's because of their their
brain development, their their risk takers. They feel like they're invincible.
They feel like it's not going to happen to them,
and we can tell them until we're blue in the
face not to do these things. But you know, in
a moment of weakness or a poor decision, they will
(06:34):
do these things. And it might be because they think
they're in love for that, you know, they're being pressured
or cohersed, or they trust somebody that they shouldn't be trusting,
and you know they will engage in, you know, sending
pictures of themselves not really understanding you know that the
Internet is an uncontrollable phenomenon, Like as soon as something's
(06:59):
out there, you've lost control of that image, and then
you know, people can do with that what they wish.
So they do make these errors and then you know,
they are getting blackmailed, they're getting threatened, and they're embarrassed,
they're ashamed, they're scared, they're getting in trouble. They've done
what they're told not to be, They've done something that
(07:19):
they've told not to do, and they're too scared to
reach out, and then they feel like they can't. So
you know, I feel like, you know, for parents in particular,
you know they parents are the first line of defense.
You know, they really do need to have age appropriate
conversations with their kids and help their kids understand you know, privacy,
(07:43):
who to friend, who not to friend, the open nature
of the internet and how easy it is to lose
control over things, some of the risks, and how to
seek help and being open. The more parents talk about
these things openly, the more comfortable will be to be
able to come to them when and if they get
themselves into a tricky situation.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, if leslie in terms of
you touched on this before, in terms of some of
the different social media platforms, like we know that some
of the social media platforms are obviously going to be
banned for kids under the age of sixteen, but then
you know, we've got a lot of young ones playing
things like Minecraft, Like you said roadblocks, I know it
(08:25):
is another one that they're all sort of you know
that a lot of those young ones are on Are
those are those kind of gaming platforms being banned? And
if not, I mean, are we just sort of going
to see our kids going to some of those where
there can be I'm going to be really blunt, any
kind of creepy pedo or anybody on there.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Really Yeah, And that's the thing, and that's what you know.
Pedophiles are a step ahead of us, regardless of how
much police are on top of this, and they are
working very hard twenty four hours around the clock in
relation to each to catch perpetrators to sexually abuse and
exploit children, and pedophiles will start moving to the gaming
(09:09):
apps now to try and access kids. So that's why
it's so important for schools and parents to actually be
educating kids around this. Still, you know, there still are risks.
We've got the social media ban and you know that
will lessen the risk to some degree, but we've still
got kids that are playing games, and those kids that are
playing games still need to have that education and those
(09:32):
conversations about some of those risks. But most importantly is
the parents need to be having those conversations, and those
conversations need to be ongoing. It can't just be a
once of a social media ban, isn't a silver bullet. No,
We're still going to be interacting. So therefore, you know,
(09:54):
education of open conversation is key, and parents need to
be you know, talk to their kids and letting their
kids know that nothing that they ever do is going
to make them not love them, is going to make
them ashamed of them, is going to make them not
want to help them because sadly, also often we see
children that are trapped in a situation where they feel
(10:16):
helpless or they feel like they can't seek help, they
don't know what to do. You know, if he's got
a perpetrator that's blackmailing a child and they're threatening to
put their naked image all over the internet and send
it to their friends at school and their parents. You know,
their kids are suiciding. They don't know what to do,
they don't know where to turn. They're embarrasses, humiliated, they're scared,
(10:41):
they see no other way out. So parents really do
need to be like, no matter what you do, I
will always love you, I will always help you, and
nothing is bad enough that we can't get through it.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
It's absolutely spot on there. I reckon Leslie in my opinion. Anyway,
I totally agree with you because the other thing I
sort of worry about, you know, as a mum of
kids that are teenagers, is that I know, kids like
they are out smarting us adults, you know, in terms
of if they're being told they're not allowed to go
on something, they'll find ways to go on it. They
(11:15):
you know, I hear stories of kids having VPNs so
they're still able to you know, to go on to
two different platforms or whatever. And then the worry that
I have is that, you know, then if they're doing
things that they know they shouldn't be, then it becomes
even more difficult for them to tell their parents when
something goes wrong.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
That's true, and you've got there's key sides to that story.
If you have some kids that will be absolutely embracing
this and grateful for you know, their social media band
because they might be a victim of bullying or they
might have issues with social media, you do have the
others that will be trying to work out ways to
(11:57):
get around it. And I guess as parents we need
to be supporting kids to still have open communication with
their friends, you know, through their text messages, through catching
up face to face phones, whatever, gaming. You know, we
need to be encouraging them. This isn't the end of
the world. You're still going to have a life. You're
still going to be able to communicate with your peers
(12:20):
and do what you were doing prior. And again, you know,
we still need to make sure that we are very
clear on no matter what you do, even if you've
done the wrong thing, you know we'll always be here
to help you.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Leslie, I reckon, that's the best advice. That is such
good advice in my opinion, just having those discussions with
your kids, and you know, sometimes they don't want to
have them. You've got to kind of capture them. When
they're in the car or somewhere where it's inescapable and
you just have a you know, a nice casual conversation,
but where you're talking to them about issues that are
a little bit more serious.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, And to be honest with you, like advice that
i'd give to parents when they're having some of those
tricky conversations. I encourage parents to speak to kids about
porn to protect them from engaging in that, letting them
know the risks, letting them know that it's not real, etc.
(13:17):
It's all acting, and the actors are not enjoying and
it's not fun, it's not sex education, and having some
of those conversations is really difficult for parents. You don't
want to be seeing there looking at your fourteen or
fifteen year old in the eyes talking about that, by
talking about poor or talking about risks. So the car
(13:39):
is a perfect face to have those conversations because you're
both looking straight ahead. You don't have that awkward looking
into each other's eyes when you're talking about some of
these tricky conversations. So it is actually a really good
place to have some of these conversations, driving to school
or driving anywhere. Really when it's in you begin these
(14:02):
conversations and you don't have to be looking at each other,
but you're engaged in that.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, I agree, Oh, Leslie, I really appreciate your time
this morning. I think it's a really interesting discussion to
have and one which we all sort of need to
have when our kids, like even if they're quite young,
and then once they get to those teenage years, you know,
and they need to know some of the risks obviously
associated with social media, but even like you touched on
(14:30):
those gaming platforms, and then when you look at you know,
some of this AI stuff with the deep fakes.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's there's certainly a lot of risks
out there, and you know, it's it's important that we
educate ourselves about these risks and then that we communicate
those with kids. And the e Safety Commissioner's web page
provides a lot of resources in relation to how to
(14:57):
speak to kids, some of the risks that are out there,
how to seek help. So even if kids, you know,
feel awkward reaching out to you, if they are aware
that there's other means, there's other avenues that they can
reach out to and seek help as well. So well,
that's important that you know they know about that as well.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, I agree, Leslie. I really appreciate your time this morning.
Thanks so much for having a chat.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
With us, not a problem, Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Lovely to chat with you.
Now we know that the federal government yesterday released the
findings of their landmark study into age assurance technology. It's
one hundred days out from the implementation date for their
social media ban for under sixteens. Now, the study found
that it was technologically possible to assess a user's age
to a reasonable degree of confidence in a variety of ways,
(00:23):
but that every way included risks as well as shortcomings. Now,
the Communications Minister Anika Wells and the E Safety Commissioner
Julie Ingram Grant will in the coming weeks and reveal
those reasonable steps that those platforms are going to be
required by law to take to comply with this ban. Now,
(00:44):
the steps might require them to meet a certain standard
for accuracy or to enact certain safeguards for privacy, but
they will not require platforms to use any specific method. Now,
it's going to be interesting, there is no doubt about that. Now.
Joining me on the line is UNI Essays Associate Professor
(01:05):
Leslie and I Good morning to you, Leslie.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Good morning, Katie. How are you today?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah? Really good, lovely to have you on the show. Leslie,
tell us what you sort of know in relation to
the report that was handed down yesterday, and I guess
what you know about how some of this age verification
might work.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, there's multiple different methods that companies can use to
be able to assess age, and the report has actually
found that there's a degree of confidence that they'll be
able to do this effectively. There are some concerns by
the public in relation to privacy, image and data retention,
(01:48):
in secure capture pipelines and encrypto data transmission, spoofing, profiling, surveillance,
and digital footprint expansion, increased parent with bonsibility and monitoring
to try and support children. But I feel like it
isn't as bad as what we are thinking because you know,
(02:10):
basically the age verification, you know, if it's done well,
it collects a lot of private data. However, there's a
lot of private data that's already been collected. You know,
we do have algorithms that are occurring in the background
every time we are logging onto the internet or social
media's collecting that sort of stuff. So you know that
(02:33):
the algorithms can already identify how old we are based
on how quickly we type. You know, whether we are
typing with our thumbs or whether we're using one finger
you know, that's all collected and our friendship lists, our interests,
what we're looking at, what we're googling. So you know,
we have a lot of algorithms in the background that's
collecting that type of data as well. And we do
(02:55):
have you know, every time you open your phone, you
use it with you open your phone with face recognition,
So all of that private data is already out there.
So I feel like there's an overreaction in relation to
what is going to occur based on Yeah, companies collecting
this data for the reason of verification of age.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Well, yeah, like you said, when we're already using all
this technology as it is, I mean, we use our
fingerprint for different things on there, we then use our face.
As you've said, I guess when it comes to our kids,
you know, we all worry a little bit more about
them when they are on phones and social media, and
there are certainly plenty of risks that they face. I mean,
(03:42):
in your profession and some of the work that you do,
what would you say are some of those big risks
that our kids face on social media?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Look, I think social media positions children that's far greater
risk than age verification. So I'm in favor of their
span to support kids until we are able to educate
them effectively. I've literally just returned from the conference that
I went to last week where we actually had a
(04:14):
look at some of the risks. And obviously there's bullying.
You know, children at risk of being victims of bullying
on social media, where they are at risk of bullying
at school as well, but with social media they can't
escape that. The bullying can go into their homes. Aid
X is another thing that is a risk the children
(04:38):
are facing. Now. That's you know, the one of the
latest risks of sexual exploitation. And you know, I learned
at this conference that you know, the perpetrators are accessing
kids through minecraft, Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook, Messenger, WhatsApp like, so
there's a lot of social media platforms in which perpetrators
(04:59):
are using to access kids. Yeah, the latest thing is
sadistic online exploit exploitation, which is where perpetrators engage with
kids kids you know, will send them a nude or
some sexual in each of themselves and then they use
(05:22):
that to threaten children and control children into doing sadistic
acts and breaking the law. So you know, that's that's
very very new and very very worried, worrying them.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
It's crazy, like it is. It's terrible to think some
of the things that can be accessed. And you know,
like I'm really open with my kids about, you know,
what they should and should not do, and I was
having conversations with them when they were quite young about
you never ever sending photos of your body parts or
anything like that. And I'm sure there are plenty of
parents that have those conversations. But sometimes when kids wind
(05:57):
up in these situations that they really don't sort of
you know, they then don't know how to get out
of them and may not feel comfortable then speaking to
their parents or to somebody else to get that assistance.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And that's absolutely right, Katie. It's because of their their
brain development, their their risk takers. They feel like they're invincible.
They feel like it's not going to happen to them,
and we can tell them until we're blue in the
face not to do these things. But you know, in
a moment of weakness or a poor decision, they will
(06:34):
do these things. And it might be because they think
they're in love for that, you know, they're being pressured
or cohersed, or they trust somebody that they shouldn't be trusting,
and you know they will engage in, you know, sending
pictures of themselves not really understanding you know that the
Internet is an uncontrollable phenomenon, Like as soon as something's
(06:59):
out there, you've lost control of that image, and then
you know, people can do with that what they wish.
So they do make these errors and then you know,
they are getting blackmailed, they're getting threatened, and they're embarrassed,
they're ashamed, they're scared, they're getting in trouble. They've done
what they're told not to be, They've done something that
(07:19):
they've told not to do, and they're too scared to
reach out, and then they feel like they can't. So
you know, I feel like, you know, for parents in particular,
you know they parents are the first line of defense.
You know, they really do need to have age appropriate
conversations with their kids and help their kids understand you know, privacy,
(07:43):
who to friend, who not to friend, the open nature
of the internet and how easy it is to lose
control over things, some of the risks, and how to
seek help and being open. The more parents talk about
these things openly, the more comfortable will be to be
able to come to them when and if they get
themselves into a tricky situation.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, if leslie in terms of
you touched on this before, in terms of some of
the different social media platforms, like we know that some
of the social media platforms are obviously going to be
banned for kids under the age of sixteen, but then
you know, we've got a lot of young ones playing
things like Minecraft, Like you said roadblocks, I know it
(08:25):
is another one that they're all sort of you know
that a lot of those young ones are on Are
those are those kind of gaming platforms being banned? And
if not, I mean, are we just sort of going
to see our kids going to some of those where
there can be I'm going to be really blunt, any
kind of creepy pedo or anybody on there.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Really Yeah, And that's the thing, and that's what you know.
Pedophiles are a step ahead of us, regardless of how
much police are on top of this, and they are
working very hard twenty four hours around the clock in
relation to each to catch perpetrators to sexually abuse and
exploit children, and pedophiles will start moving to the gaming
(09:09):
apps now to try and access kids. So that's why
it's so important for schools and parents to actually be
educating kids around this. Still, you know, there still are risks.
We've got the social media ban and you know that
will lessen the risk to some degree, but we've still
got kids that are playing games, and those kids that are
playing games still need to have that education and those
(09:32):
conversations about some of those risks. But most importantly is
the parents need to be having those conversations, and those
conversations need to be ongoing. It can't just be a
once of a social media ban, isn't a silver bullet. No,
We're still going to be interacting. So therefore, you know,
(09:54):
education of open conversation is key, and parents need to
be you know, talk to their kids and letting their
kids know that nothing that they ever do is going
to make them not love them, is going to make
them ashamed of them, is going to make them not
want to help them because sadly, also often we see
children that are trapped in a situation where they feel
(10:16):
helpless or they feel like they can't seek help, they
don't know what to do. You know, if he's got
a perpetrator that's blackmailing a child and they're threatening to
put their naked image all over the internet and send
it to their friends at school and their parents. You know,
their kids are suiciding. They don't know what to do,
they don't know where to turn. They're embarrasses, humiliated, they're scared,
(10:41):
they see no other way out. So parents really do
need to be like, no matter what you do, I
will always love you, I will always help you, and
nothing is bad enough that we can't get through it.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
It's absolutely spot on there. I reckon Leslie in my opinion. Anyway,
I totally agree with you because the other thing I
sort of worry about, you know, as a mum of
kids that are teenagers, is that I know, kids like
they are out smarting us adults, you know, in terms
of if they're being told they're not allowed to go
on something, they'll find ways to go on it. They
(11:15):
you know, I hear stories of kids having VPNs so
they're still able to you know, to go on to
two different platforms or whatever. And then the worry that
I have is that, you know, then if they're doing
things that they know they shouldn't be, then it becomes
even more difficult for them to tell their parents when
something goes wrong.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
That's true, and you've got there's key sides to that story.
If you have some kids that will be absolutely embracing
this and grateful for you know, their social media band
because they might be a victim of bullying or they
might have issues with social media, you do have the
others that will be trying to work out ways to
(11:57):
get around it. And I guess as parents we need
to be supporting kids to still have open communication with
their friends, you know, through their text messages, through catching
up face to face phones, whatever, gaming. You know, we
need to be encouraging them. This isn't the end of
the world. You're still going to have a life. You're
still going to be able to communicate with your peers
(12:20):
and do what you were doing prior. And again, you know,
we still need to make sure that we are very
clear on no matter what you do, even if you've
done the wrong thing, you know we'll always be here
to help you.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Leslie, I reckon, that's the best advice. That is such
good advice in my opinion, just having those discussions with
your kids, and you know, sometimes they don't want to
have them. You've got to kind of capture them. When
they're in the car or somewhere where it's inescapable and
you just have a you know, a nice casual conversation,
but where you're talking to them about issues that are
a little bit more serious.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, And to be honest with you, like advice that
i'd give to parents when they're having some of those
tricky conversations. I encourage parents to speak to kids about
porn to protect them from engaging in that, letting them
know the risks, letting them know that it's not real, etc.
(13:17):
It's all acting, and the actors are not enjoying and
it's not fun, it's not sex education, and having some
of those conversations is really difficult for parents. You don't
want to be seeing there looking at your fourteen or
fifteen year old in the eyes talking about that, by
talking about poor or talking about risks. So the car
(13:39):
is a perfect face to have those conversations because you're
both looking straight ahead. You don't have that awkward looking
into each other's eyes when you're talking about some of
these tricky conversations. So it is actually a really good
place to have some of these conversations, driving to school
or driving anywhere. Really when it's in you begin these
(14:02):
conversations and you don't have to be looking at each other,
but you're engaged in that.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, I agree, Oh, Leslie, I really appreciate your time
this morning. I think it's a really interesting discussion to
have and one which we all sort of need to
have when our kids, like even if they're quite young,
and then once they get to those teenage years, you know,
and they need to know some of the risks obviously
associated with social media, but even like you touched on
(14:30):
those gaming platforms, and then when you look at you know,
some of this AI stuff with the deep fakes.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's there's certainly a lot of risks
out there, and you know, it's it's important that we
educate ourselves about these risks and then that we communicate
those with kids. And the e Safety Commissioner's web page
provides a lot of resources in relation to how to
(14:57):
speak to kids, some of the risks that are out there,
how to seek help. So even if kids, you know,
feel awkward reaching out to you, if they are aware
that there's other means, there's other avenues that they can
reach out to and seek help as well. So well,
that's important that you know they know about that as well.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, I agree, Leslie. I really appreciate your time this morning.
Thanks so much for having a chat.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
With us, not a problem, Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Lovely to chat with you.
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