November 7, 2019 • 35 mins
Hear the secret police tapes from the investigation.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode is not suitable for children to listen to
or overhear. It may contain course language, adult themes, and
graphic descriptions. A perfect storm the true story of the Chamberlain's.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
What we Peter have is either the child was killed
across the area of the CONTI or was there Amlia
After We're too early to jump, but I think we've
got it without a.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Doubt in my mind.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Episode five Is she a Nut?
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Hello? My name is John Buck.
Speaker 5 (00:41):
I started making a documentary late last year about a
miscarriage of justice, one of the worst in this country's
history and one of the most famous. An innocent mother,
Lindy Chamberlain went to jail. But why did she go
to jail? And maybe more importantly, can this all happen again?
(01:03):
Can another family drive into a perfect storm of poor
police work, dangerous animals, witness bullying, powerful lobby groups, and
faulty forensics. These were the same questions that coroner Dennis
Barrett had considered after the death of Azaria Chamberlain at
(01:24):
Airsram in February nineteen eighty one. He decided to broadcast
his findings on live television in an effort to bring
an end to the rumors and innuendo surrounding the case.
Speaker 6 (01:37):
I doth find that Azaria Chantel Loreen Chamberlain, a child
then of nine weeks of age, met her death when
attacked by a wild dingo whilst asleep in her family's
tent on the seventeenth of August nineteen eighty. I further
find that neither the parents of the child nor either
(01:58):
of their remaining children, were in any degree whatsoever responsible
for this death.
Speaker 7 (02:07):
It had already been a lot of nastiness, so we
were hoping that this is it. They've got the facts,
that's it, It'll all be over, and what have you.
Speaker 6 (02:19):
The body of Azaria was taken from the possession of
a dingo and disposed of by an unknown method by
a person or person's name unknown durned to her date
to be visual.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
The Chamberlains were not involved in their child's death, and
a dingo had killed their child, Azaria, and that should
have been the end of it. However, Coronel Barrett had
tried to make sense of the baby's clothes being found,
but not Azaria herself. So why did the Northern Territory
(02:56):
police ignore a coroner who himself was a former detective
of seventeen years.
Speaker 8 (03:02):
The motive of whoever disposed of clothing could have been
to protect the reputation of the dingo.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Malcolm Brown is a retired journalist of forty years and
he covered the entire Chamberlain case.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
He's pretty clear what was at stake.
Speaker 8 (03:19):
And he was suggesting that there was a great motivation
to preserving tourism at Ears Rock and that the idea
of man eating dingoes taking babies was not in anyone's interest.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
It wasn't a detective who made the first move. It
was a teeth expert.
Speaker 8 (03:40):
Kenneth Brown, the forensicodontologist, was most dissatisfied with Coroner Barrett's finding.
He wanted to explore it further to find out what
he had done wrong, and he went to his mentor,
James Cameron in England. He asked the Northern Turkey Police
whether he could take the jump set with him, and
they veryly allowed him because they were also very interested
(04:03):
in continuing the inquiry and the police were obliged to
try to find out what that interfuion was.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
Doctor Kenneth Brown, himself a Seventh Day Adventist, took Azaria's
clothing to London, Professor James Cameron, a forensic pathologist at
the London Hospital Medical School, and doctor Bernard Simms and
odontologists conducted tests on Azaria Chamberlain's jumpsuit, singlet, booties and nappy.
Speaker 8 (04:35):
He examined this pathetic little jumpsuit and he formed a view.
He thought he was a brilliant forensic scientist, but he
probably went beyond his level of competency.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
While Professor Cameron had been involved in a number of
high profile criminal investigations, his qualifications were not necessarily suited
to the Chamberlain case. Morning later pointed out that Cameron's
experience in identifying stains on clothing was limited to just
(05:08):
one previous case. Cameron was also a prosecution witness in
a nineteen seventy two murder trial in which his opinion
led to the wrongful conviction of three young men.
Speaker 8 (05:21):
James Cameron decided that a dinger could not have taken
the babe because its jaws could not open that wire
to grab it by the head. But that's very arguable
he could have grabbed it by the neck. He did
ultra violet examination and he found a hand print and
he formed a view that was a blooded hand print
of a small adult indicated Lindy with bloodied hands till
(05:44):
the baby. What he didn't do was test the matter
that made up a handprint. He assumed it was blood,
but in fact it turned out to be red and dust,
which meant nothing.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Of course, it's much easier now to check a person's resume,
but the facts of Cameron's cases had been published in
industry journals before he conducted the Chamberlain tests. Seems to
me that a police department in Australia could have picked
up the phone and called a police department in England
to check his resume.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
There were other assumptions made by Cameron.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
That proved later to be false, but in August nineteen
eighty one, Northern Territory Police Commissioner Ron McCaulay did not
know that he received Cameron's initial findings, and they seemed
to agree with what his detectives had been telling him.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
For a year.
Speaker 8 (06:39):
The mood after James Cameron's report was that they were guilty,
and that the police and the illegal advisors were prepared
to look for further evidence attesting to the guilt of
the Chambers, including when the cases reinvestigated. They went to
till the Chamberains had taken the night Asaria disappeared, and
(07:02):
they searched the wash basin for blood on the theory
that Lendy must have washed her blooded hands in the
basin in the motel. So they were very very keen
then to find further evidence to support the theory of guilt.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Cameron's report also offered something extra.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
It wasn't from Sydney or Melbourne, and it wasn't from
one of his own forensic team, which had been heavily
criticized by Corona Barrett. Almost on que the police constable
who conducted those first forensic tests, broke her silence.
Speaker 9 (07:40):
I have a lot of sympathy for the Chamberlains. They were,
in effect of accused of murder and put under the
pressure of two parents put under the pressure of being
accused of killing their own child.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
Seven's Mike Darcy filed this interview with Myra, and.
Speaker 10 (08:01):
In a roundabout way, you were a part responsible for that.
Speaker 9 (08:06):
In a roundabout way, yeah, I don't think I was responsible,
but I think that the police force certainly helped in
prolonging that impression, that pressure.
Speaker 10 (08:19):
Because of allowing an inexperienced.
Speaker 9 (08:22):
For allowing me to do something that I had no
idea of how to What sort of conclusions did you
come to that after I found out what the case
was about, that there should have been more. I thought
there could have been more and.
Speaker 10 (08:35):
I was more investigation.
Speaker 11 (08:37):
You mean.
Speaker 9 (08:41):
No, they're just you know, I wasn't sure about the case,
so I didn't. I had nothing to guide me apart
from what I did in the newspapers, and.
Speaker 12 (08:49):
So you had to rely on the newspapers to carry
out your forensic investigation to write a report.
Speaker 10 (08:55):
Yes, for the Northern Termtory Police Force. Yes, do you
have any idea what you were dealing with?
Speaker 9 (09:00):
Not at first known.
Speaker 12 (09:01):
Although she had no training in forensic science, the Northern
Territory Police accepted her findings and theories without question, despite
the fact that she claims a superior officer wouldn't let
her check the bloodstain tat from the Chamberlain's campsite.
Speaker 9 (09:16):
I was a bit annoyed at the fact that I
was told not to do something that I should.
Speaker 10 (09:22):
Have been known and that was not checked the teram
That's right.
Speaker 9 (09:27):
I was annoyed at the because I didn't get any
reasons why, apart from the fact that it wasn't necessary
and therefore, you know, put it away.
Speaker 11 (09:37):
So I did.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Police Commissioner macaulay called in Detective Superintendent Neil Plum, a
twenty year veteran of the Northern Territory Police, to discuss
Cameron's report. McCaulay asked for a new investigation into Zaria
Chamberlain's death by the Criminal Investigation Branch.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
It was to be called Oper Oka.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Now I need to stop at this point in the
nineteen eighty one timeline and add some material from twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Since the very first days of this.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
Production, I've been lobbying the Northern Territory Police to give
me access to as many files from the Chamberlain case
as is possible. But there were two problems with my request.
The material is still off limits and it's not scheduled
to be made public for at least another year.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
But the biggest hurdle was the fact.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
That a national Australian newspaper was given access to these
same boxes of evidence in two thousand and nine and
they decided to publish jury notes. Now, I don't know
what they were thinking, because not only is that a
breach of trust with the Northern Territory Police. It's a
clear breach of the Northern Territory Juries Act, which prohibits
(10:58):
publication of jury deliberations. But a few days ago I
was given the green light to view selected materials from
the Northern Territory Police archive. Every police note, statement, photo,
audio tape or piece of evidence is held at a
(11:22):
facility in Darwin that is bland and anonymous from the outside,
but from the inside, well, it looks like the warehouse.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
In the Indiana Jones movies.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
I was pretty excited to finally get access to these materials,
but I was also, to be honest, a bit nervous.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Several people have warned me about.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
This stage of the research, and a former senior policeman
actually told me, you're walking into a minefield.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Tread carefully.
Speaker 13 (11:54):
Nail, didn't hear the news this moring brotarling. He doesn't know.
It's all over the papers down.
Speaker 14 (11:59):
There headline every years.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
By beginning on the news on DVD, fuck.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
You, I've listened to around five hours of police phone
calls and hidden device recordings from the Chamberlain case. We
will make as many of these audio clips as possible
accessible as bonus episodes. Recordings like this well.
Speaker 15 (12:24):
We'll only ever get one good crack at them, so
we want to be well armed.
Speaker 13 (12:29):
Before we ever get you know, we'll.
Speaker 15 (12:31):
Have all their forensic and everything before.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
You'll probably remember that Detective Sergeant Childwood had interviewed Lindy
Chamberlain the Mount iSER Police station a month after Azaria's disappearance.
This recording was made the very next day.
Speaker 16 (12:48):
Hello, I've been half a night wrecking my brain. Advice
all of anything could possibly be helpful to you in
any way to let you know, and I want to
help as much as possible because whoever there's a shadow
(13:09):
of doubt remains. So I want to know what happened.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
To it.
Speaker 16 (13:15):
Said all the way through, I never actually saw anything
in the dogs. It was just the way it was
getting out of the tea that it closed down. Wants
to be a cat something. And you will possibly recall
me saying that I thought had one of my husband's shoes,
or maybe did and adopted and it was just coincidental.
What has happened to go into the tent at that
(13:37):
time and let somebody else after the whole guide? I
don't know. I mean this, I thought, I think, and
now I want to know exactly what happens.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Now.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
You may hear innocence or you may hear guilt in
that call. But I think it's worth remembering what Duncan
McNabb is a detective and private investigator twenty years.
Speaker 11 (13:59):
To do your own investigation to see whether their reactions
are in accord with what happened. Don't judge it because
they react differently to how you think they should. It
may have some bearing on the case, yes, but it's
a fundamental problem. If you assume they have to do
X and they do wis doesn't work that way. Get
(14:20):
your evidence.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
I must stress the Northern Territory Police, Fire and Emergency
Services in twenty nineteen have been entirely professional and helpful
throughout and perhaps more to the point, transparent in their motives.
Now let's go back to nineteen eighty one when things
(14:42):
were very different.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I'm on flight five seven, flight five out pull Everingham.
Speaker 5 (14:52):
The then Chief Minister of the Northern Territory, decided it
was time to act. After consulting with Police Commissioner mcaulay,
his Solicitor General Mister Brian Martin, and the Brisbane lawyer
mister des Sturgis, detectives from Operation ocre split into small teams.
They flew to different cities around Australia and arrived at
(15:14):
witness homes at around the same time. This was done
so that witnesses could not liaise with each other.
Speaker 17 (15:21):
Quite clearly, there was more going on in the background
as far as the Northern Territory Police and the government
in Northern Territory than we could have ever known, and
one assumed that was the multiple layers of forrensic evidence
that they had gathered.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
I tracked down David Jones, the Seven News reporter who
broke two key stories on the Chamberlains in nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 17 (15:47):
I guess the breaking news was was that, irrespective of
what had come out the first in question in terms
of the findings, the Northern Territory Police had clearly not
given up on the investigation.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
Because the Chamberlains were living in New South Wales, Detective
Sergeant Chilwood arrived at their home with New South Wales
Police and a New South Wales search warrant. He was
polite and professional and recorded everything on an undisclosed cassette recorder.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yes for him.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
Tonight, the Chamberlain's needed a lawyer and Michael recalled Stuart
Tipple from his chance meeting in the Street. Tipple recalls
the start of a new investigation.
Speaker 18 (16:35):
They knocked on Michael Chamberlain and Lindy Chamberlain's door with
a search warrant and in that they were seeking all
of the items that had been at Airs Rock, the
tent that took away the car, and about four hundred
items for testing.
Speaker 17 (16:53):
Out of the blue, I received a tip that Northern
Territory Police had actually come to down to New South
Wales and were at that moment at curran Bong talking
to the Chamberlain. So quite clearly that was a major story,
and I found it into the newsroom.
Speaker 15 (17:13):
As we arrived.
Speaker 19 (17:14):
Detectives were taking the couple from the house to the
Toronto Police station where they've been talking to them during
the afternoon. They left without informing their babysitter, who arrived
to find the house empty a couple.
Speaker 13 (17:24):
Of other callers.
Speaker 18 (17:25):
Suddenly the biggest media event again. Even during the search,
helicopters had been hovering over them. The meat who had been.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Tipped off.
Speaker 13 (17:37):
First would camp.
Speaker 18 (17:43):
I later found out that every conversation Charlwood had with me,
in fact, every conversation they had with anybody was recorded
and recordings were made of by Charlwood of his conversation
with me. He had also taken it Lindy in a
car and had had a conversation with her, but claimed
(18:06):
that the tape recording of that conversation had failed, and
so it basically became in that instance the case of
his word against her word, which differed quite a bit
where he claimed he'd put the allegations that she'd merged
a child directly to her.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Philip Castle was later acknowledged by Linda Chamberlain as being
one of a few journalists to have reported her story fairly.
I asked what he knew of the raid on the
current Bong.
Speaker 20 (18:36):
House Inspector Charlwood was traveling in a car with Lindy
at Curran Bong and claimed that she made certain admissions
to him which did not add up to the Dingo story,
and he was very doubtful about the Dingo story and
(18:59):
felt that Lindy was fabricating the whole.
Speaker 18 (19:01):
Story conversation of that, particularly in those circumstances, a police
officer is obliged to warn the subject that they what
they say would probably be recorded or taken down and
used against them in a court of law. He said
(19:24):
something along the lines she'd tried to hit on him,
and I thought that was rather odd that a married
woman who had lost a child and was supposedly well,
probably was happily married to Michael, would try and flirt
with the police officer. And I said to him along
the lines of why do you think she was doing that?
(19:46):
And he said he felt she was trying to convince
him of the authenticity of the story about the dingo.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
We need to take a quick break and we'll return
to a perfect storm in just a moment.
Speaker 15 (20:00):
Timed and plumb the.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, it's me.
Speaker 14 (20:03):
We've got the siege by Channel seven. Helicopter just landed.
Speaker 15 (20:07):
Channel seven alley copters just landed and the telephone calls
run everywhere, all the press in the world the way
to there.
Speaker 14 (20:13):
We took off with mister Chamblin and the two boys
and we're at Toronto Police station now.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Can sp me just a moment, just heard the news,
Just wondering what happened if we got the car.
Speaker 15 (20:28):
We know where it is, no doubt that's me handled
down there.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Now.
Speaker 13 (20:32):
What's so it's saved?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah? Are you? I'm just interested, that's all cut on
a hut tin roof.
Speaker 15 (20:38):
Yeah, especially ye oh, it's Bill Fletcher in the ABC
coin Yes, Bill and Davies.
Speaker 14 (20:44):
From the Herald in Melbourne. Collins there sun here on
newspaper in Sydney. J Payne is my Yes, mister Payne,
trying to check whether there's anything.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Further to the statement.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
Another operation OCRE team. We're interviewing Sally Shaw in Hobart.
Speaker 7 (21:00):
I know I was there for about I don't know
how many ass now, five hours, whatever it was, it
was a very long time. I'm sitting on a wooden stool.
I remember that very clearly, very uncomfortable.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
As his colleagues searched the Chamberlain's house, Sergeant Noel Bainbridge
asked Sally Shaw one hundred and twenty eight questions, including
would you say it was possible that the baby's kicking
was simulated by missus Chamberlain or that the feet kicked
of the baby's own volition. Sally Shaw answered, from what
(21:38):
I could see, the baby kicked on its own behalf.
Speaker 7 (21:42):
But they weren't interested in my evidence. It was like,
you know, well, you know, I don't worry about the
dinger stuff. What really happened? You know it was that
kind of attitude and you know, tell us what happened,
and well, I can only tell you what I what
I saw and heard. And so I was talking to
him about that, and then that interrupted and going, what
it can't have been a baby because cry, it must
(22:02):
have been in a cry the night and all this
sort of thing, And they just kept going around and
round and round, as though they were trying to twist
what I was saying.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
You see, the murder timeline that the Northern Territory Police
imagined from Cameron's report meant that Lindy Chamberlain had killed
Azaria in the family car and stuffed her in a
camera bag in the car, or wrapped up the dead
child in a rug. She had then removed blood from
her clothing and returned to the barbecue with Aiden inside
(22:36):
a fifteen minute time frame, and pretended that the baby
was still alive in the rug or asleep in the tent.
The police also believed that Michael Chamberlain had buried the
body later. How do we know that was their theory?
This is an actual recording of Detective Superintendent Neil Plum
(22:59):
and Detective Sergeant Graham Childwood.
Speaker 15 (23:02):
We've we've been getting up a few hypotheses. Up he
won that the baby was murdered in the car and uh,
and he disposed of it that night a way out
from that motelit he went y he went from how
how much search was done around that particular motel? H
None at all.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
No search area was concentrated to chander where he can
effect the main sort of entrances. H hen down that way.
None of the area where the clothing was found was
searched prior of the clothing that he found H includes
that area of the motel.
Speaker 15 (23:38):
If he went to the motel and he had to
do something like that, I don't think he'd drive out
at night, but he could go on foot in the
back country. How high is the country at the back
to walk through? N not the not only to walk
through the bury.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Something once you got into the soft sand chain rouge
and up from the motelia from no, no problem.
Speaker 14 (23:56):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
It's it's one period that we've come up with. If
the child of what he was in the carden, it
has to be taken to the motel and probably buried
that night because.
Speaker 15 (24:06):
He's got there's about seven hours. I think that he's unaccounted.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Well in the following night he's unaccounted or from from
nine o'clock and nine, Yeah, that's the Monday night. You know,
that could be the occasion when they went back and
he would dug it up and clothing off. Yet if
he wanted.
Speaker 15 (24:27):
That, Yeah, well that does fit in that.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
They're both particularly him, extremely extremely fit.
Speaker 15 (24:35):
And what I what we were thinking that if.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
That was the case, that he wouldn't.
Speaker 15 (24:41):
Move the baby, then he take the clay. That's right,
and he'd leaved the baby in the first place where
we're buried, all right, say from him mother.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
The police had no direct evidence for these theories, and
witnesses like Sally Shaw had heard the baby cry when
the police believed that she was already dead.
Speaker 7 (25:04):
What I'd always been raised to tell the truth. That
was my whole being. That you did the right thing,
that you told the truth.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Now, all of this happened nearly forty years ago, but
it still bothers Sally Shaw so much so that she
flew herself to Sydney to record this interview. Sally didn't
want to be paid. She wanted to be heard and
to share this with you because this could be any
one of us alone in a police station without a lawyer,
(25:36):
being told to change the truth into a lie.
Speaker 7 (25:41):
It was just like, in my head, I'm going, they
didn't want to hear what I don't want to say.
They've got their own ideas, they don't want to know
the truth. It was like, you know, I'm thinking this
in my head. You know what's going on here? You know,
their job surely is to gather the evidence, you know,
to take my statement. It was just this is just wrong.
(26:03):
You know, what's what's their agenda? What are they doing?
You know, I couldn't comprehend what they were trying to do.
You look back on it and you realize that, well,
they're trying to get me to change my evidence, obviously,
But at the time, You're going, what's going on? You know,
I'm trying to tell you what happened, but you don't
want you don't want to listen to me. You know,
(26:24):
you don't want to know. And you know, why don't
they believe me? It's what happened. You know, why don't
you believe me?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
It happened.
Speaker 5 (26:33):
The reason they didn't believe her was that her story
didn't fit in.
Speaker 7 (26:37):
With theirs anyway. They're time they did a statement and
asked me to sign in the in the end, and
I was just sort of I was feeling quite ill
at that stage, and I just sort of give it
a quick skim through and signed it, which was really wrong,
but that's what you do. When I left there, I
was actually physically sick. I was really quite.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Ill, overcome with nausea.
Speaker 5 (26:59):
After hours of questioning, Sally Shaw never got to read
her whole statement.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Did she hear the sound of a cry?
Speaker 13 (27:11):
She's pretty sure that it was a baby's cry. It
was loud, not a shout, like it wasn't a shout.
Was it dark at this time? There was a fair
amount of light from the light near the barbecue there.
Have they actually interviewed the chambers.
Speaker 15 (27:29):
Yeah, they refused to say anything today. We've got to
get a legal advice, et cetera. Okay, mate, Okay.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
Then the police had searched the chamberlain's home and the
family car and found a towel, a knife, and two
hats with what appeared to be blood on them. Can
I help you?
Speaker 15 (27:53):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Seven?
Speaker 15 (27:54):
And a plumbing down. Can you put me through to
Extension seven. I'd like to speak to Sagan child.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Morning.
Speaker 15 (28:00):
First, How I am and your saying significance in that
towel in the back. Certainly blood on us bought a
lot or just.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Well, very very strong presumptive indications blood on the towel.
See you've got these hats. Did they tell you about
the hats? Yeah, it's not blood furious theatrical blood. But
they're doing small tests on it to come up and
should have any exe as to what it actually is.
Speaker 15 (28:27):
Where did she have There was in a plastic bag
that he conduced them from nowhere? She produced them from nowhere?
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Well, she we're in the kitchen. She came in from
my own body of the house with them in a
uh you know they carried meat bags. Yeah, yeah, you know.
You know everyone said, is she and not blood? It
has to you know, if it is the answer that
she has to be mentally disturbed.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
M it's all cunning.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Mm be tremendous women. If we were in facted it
up as blood and she could prove that it was real.
Speaker 15 (29:06):
Yes, she might be that cunning, even it.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Was religious nut.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
I guess we all know this kind of thing goes
on in the background, but it is something else to
actually hear it. So it's pretty obvious that the police
aren't searching for a person or person's unknown. The next
day Stuart Tipple met the Chamberlain's with Peter Dean, the
solicitor from the first Inquest, who'd flown in from out Springs.
Speaker 18 (29:42):
Well, they just recited to us what had happened. They
didn't even have a copy of the search warrant or
Indy had been told by Childwood that there was a
Professor Cameron that it indicated the baby had been murdered
and that the dingo wasn't involved. They were just dumbfound
under why the police had been there and what was happening.
(30:04):
But it was pretty obvious to me that obviously the
case had been reopened and that they are under suspicion.
To you, well, the police aren't going to come all
the way from the Northern Territory and obtain a search
warrant and knock on their door. And by that time
we also knew that they'd gone and visited some of
(30:26):
the other witnesses around Australia, and the fact that they'd
taken away so many things, including their car, indicated this
wasn't anything to be made light of. It was an expensive,
complex operation.
Speaker 17 (30:44):
It's understood Professor Cameron found signs consistent with the baby
having been decapitated.
Speaker 12 (30:50):
Azaria's father, Pastor Michael Chamberlain, said today he and his
wife were also in the dark about the new evidence.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
The new evidence comes in the form of a report
by one of the world's top forensic scientists.
Speaker 7 (31:01):
After carrying out test on babies.
Speaker 8 (31:03):
It linked out that the baby might have been decapitated.
Once that got help, the whole country's in uproar, and
the conclusion of the mass of population was that there
had been a ritualistic murder and that the Chamans have
tried to cover it up.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
Detective Superintendent Neil Plum rang his brother, Sergeant Mark Plum,
who was supervising forensic tests of the Chamberlain's car in Sydney.
Speaker 15 (31:31):
Well there you go, and damn they.
Speaker 14 (31:34):
We've worked on the car. By the way, that blood
on the tail isn't beetle blood after.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
All, it's what not fetal blood. We would tell that
it was.
Speaker 14 (31:44):
We were told that it was too apparently heard.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
It have been done and came up fetle Oh Jesus.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
The operation Oka detectives probably only had another twenty four
hours left before the media discovered what was happening asked
for mistake, Detective Duncan McNabb what it was like to
be in that situation.
Speaker 10 (32:05):
Politics of policing is brutal.
Speaker 11 (32:08):
There's a lot of pressure, particularly on younger, less experienced detectives,
to tow a certain line. And if it's on the
front page of every newspaper in the country, chances are
that pressure would have been do you damn hire to
get a fast result. We don't want to look like schmucks.
If you look like schmucks down the track that someone
else is problem, not mine. Deal with it now. Policing
(32:29):
and politics are so closely linked.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Three two six s main Wi there you go between
you and we have got blood. I see its a
bit no, all the buses are sitting to bend this,
I think when he found out, oh.
Speaker 13 (32:51):
I mentioned then Hey Kevin.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
Then came a call to Detective Superinten and a plum
from his brother, who was working at the Campbell Street
Police vehicle compound in Sydney.
Speaker 21 (33:10):
Hello, there you going, so we might brighten your day
for you. Yes, we've got confirmed fetal blood on a
coin which is on a blood stained area underneath the
seat and she has tested the coin and come up
(33:31):
with feetle confirmed, confirmed, confirmed.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
What we appear to have is either the child was
killed across the area of the console or was put
there immediately after.
Speaker 14 (33:45):
We're too early to.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Jump, and I think we've got it without a doubt
in my mind.
Speaker 21 (33:51):
Well you're doing a good job.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
That's what we said you're there to do.
Speaker 14 (33:54):
We still haven't finished the car.
Speaker 21 (33:56):
Now, still work on the car. Hang all the time,
you like, do you want more money?
Speaker 14 (34:01):
What are you need another good?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I think it's concerning me with learning worry from the
pressures that are being put on by the newspapers.
Speaker 13 (34:11):
No worries man, No worries.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
The pressure is going to get up worse before.
Speaker 14 (34:17):
We may get a move of him.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
So now we've all heard that material for the first time.
The Operation Oka detectives are confident they have evidence of
a child's murder by her mother. Rather than follow all
of the evidence to see where it leads, as most
police do, they're letting a relatively inexperienced scientists lead them
(34:40):
to a conclusion that will not stand the test of time.
The evidence is deeply flawed. But on that evening in
early October nineteen eighty one, as Neil Plum hangs up.
No one knows that or bothers to double check in
next week's show. The police evidence is present in court
(35:01):
as fact. If you subscribe now, you're going to alert
the moment the next show drops. I'd like to say
thanks to Nicki, Simon and Stephen who helped create this episode,
and a shout out to Gary, Sandy and Sue, and
thanks to you for listening.
This episode is not suitable for children to listen to
or overhear. It may contain course language, adult themes, and
graphic descriptions. A perfect storm the true story of the Chamberlain's.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
What we Peter have is either the child was killed
across the area of the CONTI or was there Amlia
After We're too early to jump, but I think we've
got it without a.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Doubt in my mind.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Episode five Is she a Nut?
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Hello? My name is John Buck.
Speaker 5 (00:41):
I started making a documentary late last year about a
miscarriage of justice, one of the worst in this country's
history and one of the most famous. An innocent mother,
Lindy Chamberlain went to jail. But why did she go
to jail? And maybe more importantly, can this all happen again?
(01:03):
Can another family drive into a perfect storm of poor
police work, dangerous animals, witness bullying, powerful lobby groups, and
faulty forensics. These were the same questions that coroner Dennis
Barrett had considered after the death of Azaria Chamberlain at
(01:24):
Airsram in February nineteen eighty one. He decided to broadcast
his findings on live television in an effort to bring
an end to the rumors and innuendo surrounding the case.
Speaker 6 (01:37):
I doth find that Azaria Chantel Loreen Chamberlain, a child
then of nine weeks of age, met her death when
attacked by a wild dingo whilst asleep in her family's
tent on the seventeenth of August nineteen eighty. I further
find that neither the parents of the child nor either
(01:58):
of their remaining children, were in any degree whatsoever responsible
for this death.
Speaker 7 (02:07):
It had already been a lot of nastiness, so we
were hoping that this is it. They've got the facts,
that's it, It'll all be over, and what have you.
Speaker 6 (02:19):
The body of Azaria was taken from the possession of
a dingo and disposed of by an unknown method by
a person or person's name unknown durned to her date
to be visual.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
The Chamberlains were not involved in their child's death, and
a dingo had killed their child, Azaria, and that should
have been the end of it. However, Coronel Barrett had
tried to make sense of the baby's clothes being found,
but not Azaria herself. So why did the Northern Territory
(02:56):
police ignore a coroner who himself was a former detective
of seventeen years.
Speaker 8 (03:02):
The motive of whoever disposed of clothing could have been
to protect the reputation of the dingo.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Malcolm Brown is a retired journalist of forty years and
he covered the entire Chamberlain case.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
He's pretty clear what was at stake.
Speaker 8 (03:19):
And he was suggesting that there was a great motivation
to preserving tourism at Ears Rock and that the idea
of man eating dingoes taking babies was not in anyone's interest.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
It wasn't a detective who made the first move. It
was a teeth expert.
Speaker 8 (03:40):
Kenneth Brown, the forensicodontologist, was most dissatisfied with Coroner Barrett's finding.
He wanted to explore it further to find out what
he had done wrong, and he went to his mentor,
James Cameron in England. He asked the Northern Turkey Police
whether he could take the jump set with him, and
they veryly allowed him because they were also very interested
(04:03):
in continuing the inquiry and the police were obliged to
try to find out what that interfuion was.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
Doctor Kenneth Brown, himself a Seventh Day Adventist, took Azaria's
clothing to London, Professor James Cameron, a forensic pathologist at
the London Hospital Medical School, and doctor Bernard Simms and
odontologists conducted tests on Azaria Chamberlain's jumpsuit, singlet, booties and nappy.
Speaker 8 (04:35):
He examined this pathetic little jumpsuit and he formed a view.
He thought he was a brilliant forensic scientist, but he
probably went beyond his level of competency.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
While Professor Cameron had been involved in a number of
high profile criminal investigations, his qualifications were not necessarily suited
to the Chamberlain case. Morning later pointed out that Cameron's
experience in identifying stains on clothing was limited to just
(05:08):
one previous case. Cameron was also a prosecution witness in
a nineteen seventy two murder trial in which his opinion
led to the wrongful conviction of three young men.
Speaker 8 (05:21):
James Cameron decided that a dinger could not have taken
the babe because its jaws could not open that wire
to grab it by the head. But that's very arguable
he could have grabbed it by the neck. He did
ultra violet examination and he found a hand print and
he formed a view that was a blooded hand print
of a small adult indicated Lindy with bloodied hands till
(05:44):
the baby. What he didn't do was test the matter
that made up a handprint. He assumed it was blood,
but in fact it turned out to be red and dust,
which meant nothing.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Of course, it's much easier now to check a person's resume,
but the facts of Cameron's cases had been published in
industry journals before he conducted the Chamberlain tests. Seems to
me that a police department in Australia could have picked
up the phone and called a police department in England
to check his resume.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
There were other assumptions made by Cameron.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
That proved later to be false, but in August nineteen
eighty one, Northern Territory Police Commissioner Ron McCaulay did not
know that he received Cameron's initial findings, and they seemed
to agree with what his detectives had been telling him.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
For a year.
Speaker 8 (06:39):
The mood after James Cameron's report was that they were guilty,
and that the police and the illegal advisors were prepared
to look for further evidence attesting to the guilt of
the Chambers, including when the cases reinvestigated. They went to
till the Chamberains had taken the night Asaria disappeared, and
(07:02):
they searched the wash basin for blood on the theory
that Lendy must have washed her blooded hands in the
basin in the motel. So they were very very keen
then to find further evidence to support the theory of guilt.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Cameron's report also offered something extra.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
It wasn't from Sydney or Melbourne, and it wasn't from
one of his own forensic team, which had been heavily
criticized by Corona Barrett. Almost on que the police constable
who conducted those first forensic tests, broke her silence.
Speaker 9 (07:40):
I have a lot of sympathy for the Chamberlains. They were,
in effect of accused of murder and put under the
pressure of two parents put under the pressure of being
accused of killing their own child.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
Seven's Mike Darcy filed this interview with Myra, and.
Speaker 10 (08:01):
In a roundabout way, you were a part responsible for that.
Speaker 9 (08:06):
In a roundabout way, yeah, I don't think I was responsible,
but I think that the police force certainly helped in
prolonging that impression, that pressure.
Speaker 10 (08:19):
Because of allowing an inexperienced.
Speaker 9 (08:22):
For allowing me to do something that I had no
idea of how to What sort of conclusions did you
come to that after I found out what the case
was about, that there should have been more. I thought
there could have been more and.
Speaker 10 (08:35):
I was more investigation.
Speaker 11 (08:37):
You mean.
Speaker 9 (08:41):
No, they're just you know, I wasn't sure about the case,
so I didn't. I had nothing to guide me apart
from what I did in the newspapers, and.
Speaker 12 (08:49):
So you had to rely on the newspapers to carry
out your forensic investigation to write a report.
Speaker 10 (08:55):
Yes, for the Northern Termtory Police Force. Yes, do you
have any idea what you were dealing with?
Speaker 9 (09:00):
Not at first known.
Speaker 12 (09:01):
Although she had no training in forensic science, the Northern
Territory Police accepted her findings and theories without question, despite
the fact that she claims a superior officer wouldn't let
her check the bloodstain tat from the Chamberlain's campsite.
Speaker 9 (09:16):
I was a bit annoyed at the fact that I
was told not to do something that I should.
Speaker 10 (09:22):
Have been known and that was not checked the teram
That's right.
Speaker 9 (09:27):
I was annoyed at the because I didn't get any
reasons why, apart from the fact that it wasn't necessary
and therefore, you know, put it away.
Speaker 11 (09:37):
So I did.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Police Commissioner macaulay called in Detective Superintendent Neil Plum, a
twenty year veteran of the Northern Territory Police, to discuss
Cameron's report. McCaulay asked for a new investigation into Zaria
Chamberlain's death by the Criminal Investigation Branch.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
It was to be called Oper Oka.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Now I need to stop at this point in the
nineteen eighty one timeline and add some material from twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Since the very first days of this.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
Production, I've been lobbying the Northern Territory Police to give
me access to as many files from the Chamberlain case
as is possible. But there were two problems with my request.
The material is still off limits and it's not scheduled
to be made public for at least another year.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
But the biggest hurdle was the fact.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
That a national Australian newspaper was given access to these
same boxes of evidence in two thousand and nine and
they decided to publish jury notes. Now, I don't know
what they were thinking, because not only is that a
breach of trust with the Northern Territory Police. It's a
clear breach of the Northern Territory Juries Act, which prohibits
(10:58):
publication of jury deliberations. But a few days ago I
was given the green light to view selected materials from
the Northern Territory Police archive. Every police note, statement, photo,
audio tape or piece of evidence is held at a
(11:22):
facility in Darwin that is bland and anonymous from the outside,
but from the inside, well, it looks like the warehouse.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
In the Indiana Jones movies.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
I was pretty excited to finally get access to these materials,
but I was also, to be honest, a bit nervous.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Several people have warned me about.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
This stage of the research, and a former senior policeman
actually told me, you're walking into a minefield.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Tread carefully.
Speaker 13 (11:54):
Nail, didn't hear the news this moring brotarling. He doesn't know.
It's all over the papers down.
Speaker 14 (11:59):
There headline every years.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
By beginning on the news on DVD, fuck.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
You, I've listened to around five hours of police phone
calls and hidden device recordings from the Chamberlain case. We
will make as many of these audio clips as possible
accessible as bonus episodes. Recordings like this well.
Speaker 15 (12:24):
We'll only ever get one good crack at them, so
we want to be well armed.
Speaker 13 (12:29):
Before we ever get you know, we'll.
Speaker 15 (12:31):
Have all their forensic and everything before.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
You'll probably remember that Detective Sergeant Childwood had interviewed Lindy
Chamberlain the Mount iSER Police station a month after Azaria's disappearance.
This recording was made the very next day.
Speaker 16 (12:48):
Hello, I've been half a night wrecking my brain. Advice
all of anything could possibly be helpful to you in
any way to let you know, and I want to
help as much as possible because whoever there's a shadow
(13:09):
of doubt remains. So I want to know what happened.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
To it.
Speaker 16 (13:15):
Said all the way through, I never actually saw anything
in the dogs. It was just the way it was
getting out of the tea that it closed down. Wants
to be a cat something. And you will possibly recall
me saying that I thought had one of my husband's shoes,
or maybe did and adopted and it was just coincidental.
What has happened to go into the tent at that
(13:37):
time and let somebody else after the whole guide? I
don't know. I mean this, I thought, I think, and
now I want to know exactly what happens.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Now.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
You may hear innocence or you may hear guilt in
that call. But I think it's worth remembering what Duncan
McNabb is a detective and private investigator twenty years.
Speaker 11 (13:59):
To do your own investigation to see whether their reactions
are in accord with what happened. Don't judge it because
they react differently to how you think they should. It
may have some bearing on the case, yes, but it's
a fundamental problem. If you assume they have to do
X and they do wis doesn't work that way. Get
(14:20):
your evidence.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
I must stress the Northern Territory Police, Fire and Emergency
Services in twenty nineteen have been entirely professional and helpful
throughout and perhaps more to the point, transparent in their motives.
Now let's go back to nineteen eighty one when things
(14:42):
were very different.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I'm on flight five seven, flight five out pull Everingham.
Speaker 5 (14:52):
The then Chief Minister of the Northern Territory, decided it
was time to act. After consulting with Police Commissioner mcaulay,
his Solicitor General Mister Brian Martin, and the Brisbane lawyer
mister des Sturgis, detectives from Operation ocre split into small teams.
They flew to different cities around Australia and arrived at
(15:14):
witness homes at around the same time. This was done
so that witnesses could not liaise with each other.
Speaker 17 (15:21):
Quite clearly, there was more going on in the background
as far as the Northern Territory Police and the government
in Northern Territory than we could have ever known, and
one assumed that was the multiple layers of forrensic evidence
that they had gathered.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
I tracked down David Jones, the Seven News reporter who
broke two key stories on the Chamberlains in nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 17 (15:47):
I guess the breaking news was was that, irrespective of
what had come out the first in question in terms
of the findings, the Northern Territory Police had clearly not
given up on the investigation.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
Because the Chamberlains were living in New South Wales, Detective
Sergeant Chilwood arrived at their home with New South Wales
Police and a New South Wales search warrant. He was
polite and professional and recorded everything on an undisclosed cassette recorder.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yes for him.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
Tonight, the Chamberlain's needed a lawyer and Michael recalled Stuart
Tipple from his chance meeting in the Street. Tipple recalls
the start of a new investigation.
Speaker 18 (16:35):
They knocked on Michael Chamberlain and Lindy Chamberlain's door with
a search warrant and in that they were seeking all
of the items that had been at Airs Rock, the
tent that took away the car, and about four hundred
items for testing.
Speaker 17 (16:53):
Out of the blue, I received a tip that Northern
Territory Police had actually come to down to New South
Wales and were at that moment at curran Bong talking
to the Chamberlain. So quite clearly that was a major story,
and I found it into the newsroom.
Speaker 15 (17:13):
As we arrived.
Speaker 19 (17:14):
Detectives were taking the couple from the house to the
Toronto Police station where they've been talking to them during
the afternoon. They left without informing their babysitter, who arrived
to find the house empty a couple.
Speaker 13 (17:24):
Of other callers.
Speaker 18 (17:25):
Suddenly the biggest media event again. Even during the search,
helicopters had been hovering over them. The meat who had been.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Tipped off.
Speaker 13 (17:37):
First would camp.
Speaker 18 (17:43):
I later found out that every conversation Charlwood had with me,
in fact, every conversation they had with anybody was recorded
and recordings were made of by Charlwood of his conversation
with me. He had also taken it Lindy in a
car and had had a conversation with her, but claimed
(18:06):
that the tape recording of that conversation had failed, and
so it basically became in that instance the case of
his word against her word, which differed quite a bit
where he claimed he'd put the allegations that she'd merged
a child directly to her.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Philip Castle was later acknowledged by Linda Chamberlain as being
one of a few journalists to have reported her story fairly.
I asked what he knew of the raid on the
current Bong.
Speaker 20 (18:36):
House Inspector Charlwood was traveling in a car with Lindy
at Curran Bong and claimed that she made certain admissions
to him which did not add up to the Dingo story,
and he was very doubtful about the Dingo story and
(18:59):
felt that Lindy was fabricating the whole.
Speaker 18 (19:01):
Story conversation of that, particularly in those circumstances, a police
officer is obliged to warn the subject that they what
they say would probably be recorded or taken down and
used against them in a court of law. He said
(19:24):
something along the lines she'd tried to hit on him,
and I thought that was rather odd that a married
woman who had lost a child and was supposedly well,
probably was happily married to Michael, would try and flirt
with the police officer. And I said to him along
the lines of why do you think she was doing that?
(19:46):
And he said he felt she was trying to convince
him of the authenticity of the story about the dingo.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
We need to take a quick break and we'll return
to a perfect storm in just a moment.
Speaker 15 (20:00):
Timed and plumb the.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, it's me.
Speaker 14 (20:03):
We've got the siege by Channel seven. Helicopter just landed.
Speaker 15 (20:07):
Channel seven alley copters just landed and the telephone calls
run everywhere, all the press in the world the way
to there.
Speaker 14 (20:13):
We took off with mister Chamblin and the two boys
and we're at Toronto Police station now.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Can sp me just a moment, just heard the news,
Just wondering what happened if we got the car.
Speaker 15 (20:28):
We know where it is, no doubt that's me handled
down there.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Now.
Speaker 13 (20:32):
What's so it's saved?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah? Are you? I'm just interested, that's all cut on
a hut tin roof.
Speaker 15 (20:38):
Yeah, especially ye oh, it's Bill Fletcher in the ABC
coin Yes, Bill and Davies.
Speaker 14 (20:44):
From the Herald in Melbourne. Collins there sun here on
newspaper in Sydney. J Payne is my Yes, mister Payne,
trying to check whether there's anything.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Further to the statement.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
Another operation OCRE team. We're interviewing Sally Shaw in Hobart.
Speaker 7 (21:00):
I know I was there for about I don't know
how many ass now, five hours, whatever it was, it
was a very long time. I'm sitting on a wooden stool.
I remember that very clearly, very uncomfortable.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
As his colleagues searched the Chamberlain's house, Sergeant Noel Bainbridge
asked Sally Shaw one hundred and twenty eight questions, including
would you say it was possible that the baby's kicking
was simulated by missus Chamberlain or that the feet kicked
of the baby's own volition. Sally Shaw answered, from what
(21:38):
I could see, the baby kicked on its own behalf.
Speaker 7 (21:42):
But they weren't interested in my evidence. It was like,
you know, well, you know, I don't worry about the
dinger stuff. What really happened? You know it was that
kind of attitude and you know, tell us what happened,
and well, I can only tell you what I what
I saw and heard. And so I was talking to
him about that, and then that interrupted and going, what
it can't have been a baby because cry, it must
(22:02):
have been in a cry the night and all this
sort of thing, And they just kept going around and
round and round, as though they were trying to twist
what I was saying.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
You see, the murder timeline that the Northern Territory Police
imagined from Cameron's report meant that Lindy Chamberlain had killed
Azaria in the family car and stuffed her in a
camera bag in the car, or wrapped up the dead
child in a rug. She had then removed blood from
her clothing and returned to the barbecue with Aiden inside
(22:36):
a fifteen minute time frame, and pretended that the baby
was still alive in the rug or asleep in the tent.
The police also believed that Michael Chamberlain had buried the
body later. How do we know that was their theory?
This is an actual recording of Detective Superintendent Neil Plum
(22:59):
and Detective Sergeant Graham Childwood.
Speaker 15 (23:02):
We've we've been getting up a few hypotheses. Up he
won that the baby was murdered in the car and uh,
and he disposed of it that night a way out
from that motelit he went y he went from how
how much search was done around that particular motel? H
None at all.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
No search area was concentrated to chander where he can
effect the main sort of entrances. H hen down that way.
None of the area where the clothing was found was
searched prior of the clothing that he found H includes
that area of the motel.
Speaker 15 (23:38):
If he went to the motel and he had to
do something like that, I don't think he'd drive out
at night, but he could go on foot in the
back country. How high is the country at the back
to walk through? N not the not only to walk
through the bury.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Something once you got into the soft sand chain rouge
and up from the motelia from no, no problem.
Speaker 14 (23:56):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
It's it's one period that we've come up with. If
the child of what he was in the carden, it
has to be taken to the motel and probably buried
that night because.
Speaker 15 (24:06):
He's got there's about seven hours. I think that he's unaccounted.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Well in the following night he's unaccounted or from from
nine o'clock and nine, Yeah, that's the Monday night. You know,
that could be the occasion when they went back and
he would dug it up and clothing off. Yet if
he wanted.
Speaker 15 (24:27):
That, Yeah, well that does fit in that.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
They're both particularly him, extremely extremely fit.
Speaker 15 (24:35):
And what I what we were thinking that if.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
That was the case, that he wouldn't.
Speaker 15 (24:41):
Move the baby, then he take the clay. That's right,
and he'd leaved the baby in the first place where
we're buried, all right, say from him mother.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
The police had no direct evidence for these theories, and
witnesses like Sally Shaw had heard the baby cry when
the police believed that she was already dead.
Speaker 7 (25:04):
What I'd always been raised to tell the truth. That
was my whole being. That you did the right thing,
that you told the truth.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Now, all of this happened nearly forty years ago, but
it still bothers Sally Shaw so much so that she
flew herself to Sydney to record this interview. Sally didn't
want to be paid. She wanted to be heard and
to share this with you because this could be any
one of us alone in a police station without a lawyer,
(25:36):
being told to change the truth into a lie.
Speaker 7 (25:41):
It was just like, in my head, I'm going, they
didn't want to hear what I don't want to say.
They've got their own ideas, they don't want to know
the truth. It was like, you know, I'm thinking this
in my head. You know what's going on here? You know,
their job surely is to gather the evidence, you know,
to take my statement. It was just this is just wrong.
(26:03):
You know, what's what's their agenda? What are they doing?
You know, I couldn't comprehend what they were trying to do.
You look back on it and you realize that, well,
they're trying to get me to change my evidence, obviously,
But at the time, You're going, what's going on? You know,
I'm trying to tell you what happened, but you don't
want you don't want to listen to me. You know,
(26:24):
you don't want to know. And you know, why don't
they believe me? It's what happened. You know, why don't
you believe me?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
It happened.
Speaker 5 (26:33):
The reason they didn't believe her was that her story
didn't fit in.
Speaker 7 (26:37):
With theirs anyway. They're time they did a statement and
asked me to sign in the in the end, and
I was just sort of I was feeling quite ill
at that stage, and I just sort of give it
a quick skim through and signed it, which was really wrong,
but that's what you do. When I left there, I
was actually physically sick. I was really quite.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Ill, overcome with nausea.
Speaker 5 (26:59):
After hours of questioning, Sally Shaw never got to read
her whole statement.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Did she hear the sound of a cry?
Speaker 13 (27:11):
She's pretty sure that it was a baby's cry. It
was loud, not a shout, like it wasn't a shout.
Was it dark at this time? There was a fair
amount of light from the light near the barbecue there.
Have they actually interviewed the chambers.
Speaker 15 (27:29):
Yeah, they refused to say anything today. We've got to
get a legal advice, et cetera. Okay, mate, Okay.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
Then the police had searched the chamberlain's home and the
family car and found a towel, a knife, and two
hats with what appeared to be blood on them. Can
I help you?
Speaker 15 (27:53):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Seven?
Speaker 15 (27:54):
And a plumbing down. Can you put me through to
Extension seven. I'd like to speak to Sagan child.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Morning.
Speaker 15 (28:00):
First, How I am and your saying significance in that
towel in the back. Certainly blood on us bought a
lot or just.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Well, very very strong presumptive indications blood on the towel.
See you've got these hats. Did they tell you about
the hats? Yeah, it's not blood furious theatrical blood. But
they're doing small tests on it to come up and
should have any exe as to what it actually is.
Speaker 15 (28:27):
Where did she have There was in a plastic bag
that he conduced them from nowhere? She produced them from nowhere?
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Well, she we're in the kitchen. She came in from
my own body of the house with them in a
uh you know they carried meat bags. Yeah, yeah, you know.
You know everyone said, is she and not blood? It
has to you know, if it is the answer that
she has to be mentally disturbed.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
M it's all cunning.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Mm be tremendous women. If we were in facted it
up as blood and she could prove that it was real.
Speaker 15 (29:06):
Yes, she might be that cunning, even it.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Was religious nut.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
I guess we all know this kind of thing goes
on in the background, but it is something else to
actually hear it. So it's pretty obvious that the police
aren't searching for a person or person's unknown. The next
day Stuart Tipple met the Chamberlain's with Peter Dean, the
solicitor from the first Inquest, who'd flown in from out Springs.
Speaker 18 (29:42):
Well, they just recited to us what had happened. They
didn't even have a copy of the search warrant or
Indy had been told by Childwood that there was a
Professor Cameron that it indicated the baby had been murdered
and that the dingo wasn't involved. They were just dumbfound
under why the police had been there and what was happening.
(30:04):
But it was pretty obvious to me that obviously the
case had been reopened and that they are under suspicion.
To you, well, the police aren't going to come all
the way from the Northern Territory and obtain a search
warrant and knock on their door. And by that time
we also knew that they'd gone and visited some of
(30:26):
the other witnesses around Australia, and the fact that they'd
taken away so many things, including their car, indicated this
wasn't anything to be made light of. It was an expensive,
complex operation.
Speaker 17 (30:44):
It's understood Professor Cameron found signs consistent with the baby
having been decapitated.
Speaker 12 (30:50):
Azaria's father, Pastor Michael Chamberlain, said today he and his
wife were also in the dark about the new evidence.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
The new evidence comes in the form of a report
by one of the world's top forensic scientists.
Speaker 7 (31:01):
After carrying out test on babies.
Speaker 8 (31:03):
It linked out that the baby might have been decapitated.
Once that got help, the whole country's in uproar, and
the conclusion of the mass of population was that there
had been a ritualistic murder and that the Chamans have
tried to cover it up.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
Detective Superintendent Neil Plum rang his brother, Sergeant Mark Plum,
who was supervising forensic tests of the Chamberlain's car in Sydney.
Speaker 15 (31:31):
Well there you go, and damn they.
Speaker 14 (31:34):
We've worked on the car. By the way, that blood
on the tail isn't beetle blood after.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
All, it's what not fetal blood. We would tell that
it was.
Speaker 14 (31:44):
We were told that it was too apparently heard.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
It have been done and came up fetle Oh Jesus.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
The operation Oka detectives probably only had another twenty four
hours left before the media discovered what was happening asked
for mistake, Detective Duncan McNabb what it was like to
be in that situation.
Speaker 10 (32:05):
Politics of policing is brutal.
Speaker 11 (32:08):
There's a lot of pressure, particularly on younger, less experienced detectives,
to tow a certain line. And if it's on the
front page of every newspaper in the country, chances are
that pressure would have been do you damn hire to
get a fast result. We don't want to look like schmucks.
If you look like schmucks down the track that someone
else is problem, not mine. Deal with it now. Policing
(32:29):
and politics are so closely linked.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Three two six s main Wi there you go between
you and we have got blood. I see its a
bit no, all the buses are sitting to bend this,
I think when he found out, oh.
Speaker 13 (32:51):
I mentioned then Hey Kevin.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
Then came a call to Detective Superinten and a plum
from his brother, who was working at the Campbell Street
Police vehicle compound in Sydney.
Speaker 21 (33:10):
Hello, there you going, so we might brighten your day
for you. Yes, we've got confirmed fetal blood on a
coin which is on a blood stained area underneath the
seat and she has tested the coin and come up
(33:31):
with feetle confirmed, confirmed, confirmed.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
What we appear to have is either the child was
killed across the area of the console or was put
there immediately after.
Speaker 14 (33:45):
We're too early to.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Jump, and I think we've got it without a doubt
in my mind.
Speaker 21 (33:51):
Well you're doing a good job.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
That's what we said you're there to do.
Speaker 14 (33:54):
We still haven't finished the car.
Speaker 21 (33:56):
Now, still work on the car. Hang all the time,
you like, do you want more money?
Speaker 14 (34:01):
What are you need another good?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I think it's concerning me with learning worry from the
pressures that are being put on by the newspapers.
Speaker 13 (34:11):
No worries man, No worries.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
The pressure is going to get up worse before.
Speaker 14 (34:17):
We may get a move of him.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
So now we've all heard that material for the first time.
The Operation Oka detectives are confident they have evidence of
a child's murder by her mother. Rather than follow all
of the evidence to see where it leads, as most
police do, they're letting a relatively inexperienced scientists lead them
(34:40):
to a conclusion that will not stand the test of time.
The evidence is deeply flawed. But on that evening in
early October nineteen eighty one, as Neil Plum hangs up.
No one knows that or bothers to double check in
next week's show. The police evidence is present in court
(35:01):
as fact. If you subscribe now, you're going to alert
the moment the next show drops. I'd like to say
thanks to Nicki, Simon and Stephen who helped create this episode,
and a shout out to Gary, Sandy and Sue, and
thanks to you for listening.
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