Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This episode is not suitable for children to listen to
or overhear. It may contain course language, adult themes, and
graphic descriptions. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised
that the following program may contain the names of people
who have died.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I think Azaria would have lasted a matter of minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory Police who
were determined to get her.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
A Perfect Storm the true story of the Chamberlain's people
were saying to me, Oh, you're going there to see
that woman who killed a child.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Bad things happen to good people.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
He asked the foreman, have you reached a verdict?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
He said, yes, you're honor guilty.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Welcome to the extra archive material from A Perfect Storm.
This is Michael Chamberlain speaking with journalist Terry Willacey.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
That it has been a long time since you've talked.
Why have you d agreed to talk now?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Well, I think legally it is appropriate for me to
talk now. So often in the past it would have
been sub judacy for me to have said anything, and uh,
I just wanted to speak at the appropriate time and
it was right.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Is there anything particularly you wanted to say, what at
this point of time, HM, No, except that uh, my
wife is an innocent woman, and uh it'll be virtually
over my dead body that she'll stay in jail.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I'm going to fight for her exoneration. I believe she's
been wrongly convicted, and I'm gonna do my utmost to
uh clear my family's name and to see that she
is freed in the rightful way she ought to be.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
How is she accepting and coping with prison life?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I think that.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
She she's coping as best as anyone could in the situation,
but deep down, she is a very distressed woman, extremely upset.
She doesn't really know why she's there, and she's just
doing the best she can from day to day, coping
and trying to remain a human being.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
What about yourself, how your life has changed? Obviously will
talk about that. But how does strangers react to you,
people you meet in the street.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I find it very difficult because you never know what
other people are thinking when they look at you, and
quite frankly, it throws me off. Many times walking down
the street to go into shop to buy something, I
feel pretty crook, and so I don't do it. Very
often I get other people do it for me?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
What do you think that people might be thinking about you?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Well?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
When I look into their eyes sometimes, uh, all sorts
of things go through my mind.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Uh is it a.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Friendly look or is it one that can as I'm
a guilty person and they feel hostile towards me?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It does unnerve me.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
What do people say to you? Do people like to
talk to you about it or bring it up?
Speaker 3 (03:11):
People who don't know me apologize quite a lot about
bringing it up. My friends don't really talk about it
anymore because it's open and shut case for them.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
About what about the strangers? How do they what do
they ask you? Do they ask you specific questions or
they just want to talk about it in general.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I think they just want to talk about it in general,
or if they are there to get something cleared to
pass it on, then they'll ask me a specific question.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
What about your children the effect on them? Have you
explained to them or do they know what has happened?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
I think they know only too well what has happened.
We don't like talking about it too much because it's
so painful for us. I know Reagan has had on
the odd occasion from rather unfortunate dreams. I guess you
could call him nightmares about the night and Aidan is
very unhappy, very angry at times.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Reagan's nightmares. What sort of things did he dream about?
Did he tell you?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yes, he talked about the uh the dog walking over
him on the night of having uh dreams of feeling
the dog actually walking on him, over him to get
to Azaria.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
And that really UH shocked me.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
It's maybe wonder whether, in fact he may have been
awake at the time and UH was too frightened to
do anything.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Do his nightmares reach a conclusion? Ah?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Well, he is sure along with Aidan, that what UH
we believe happened in fact happened, and that indeed uh
Azaria Uh was taken by a dingo and Aidan, as
he said at the time and other times, said.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
The dingo was.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Uh hah had bubby and it's tummy and that was
uh a shocking thing to come out.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
And what about your newborn daughter, Carlia? What are you
doing with her? How are you caring for her?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Well, Carlia is being cared for by and large by
a foster mum, but Uh I see her as regularly
as I can and she uh, she's coping. She's a
marvelous little girl, m very socially adjusted.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
The whole case must engross almost your whole life. Do
you ever and can you still recall the events of
that night?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I remember certain events quite clearly.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yes, what stands in your mind most of all of
what happened that night?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
I think the most horrible thing of the evening was
the actual statement, uh, that dog's got my baby and
uh or some such thing. It was very similar to
that that I heard, And that was after I uh
recalled hearing get out a sort of a disgusted tone
from my wife.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
And U.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
When I heard that, I know, Greg and I just
the fellas of a bolt of lightning.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
It hit us.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
We were and then suddenly we moved very quickly afterwards
and raced out into the bush madly without torches at
the time, at least I didn't have a torch and
flailing around hoping that there's this animal might have dropped
her in a vicinity out of fright.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Not many hours after as there he disappeared. You were
taking photographs, which would seem strange if that's true.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yes, I took photographs the following morning. Years well, people
who know me don't think it's strange. They know that
I'm a very keen photographer. In fact, some have described
me as a photographic fanatic. But that wasn't the reason
why I took those photographs. I was really, deep down,
probably very hostile about the whole occurrence. I was determined
(07:03):
that this sort of thing must never happen again, and
for that reason I had to take a record of it,
a certificate, UH, for the release of death.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I think that's the way you put it. For a
coroner to investigate.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
The matter had already been signed, and it was fairly
clear in the minds of the authorities out there that
Azaria could not possibly still be alive, and Uh, I
didn't want to continue s to search for, uh, someone
who was dead, or for the remains that I might
come across. It would have been a horrific thing.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
So you'd abandon all hope at that stage.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Ah, the following morning, it was beyond reasonable doubt that
she had to be dead. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
When Azaria's clothing was discovered, it was said to be
in a in a I think the words were a
neat pile or in the pile as though tipped out
of a or just tipped onto the grove. How do you
explain that?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Well, I can't because I've er never seen any evidence
of that. Uh. There are only two reports presented in court,
one by uh a mister good One, the other one
by uh Constable Morris, and that even is a complete
mystery to me because uh both reports, in my view,
are quite different.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Why do you think you were found guilty?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I find it very perplexing as to why we were
found guilty, But I think there are a number of reasons.
I think it really started to occur at the second
in quest. There was such very bad publicity leading up
to the second in quest by certain media people, and
the inquest, in my opinion, was conducted in a way
(08:48):
that well, was a little strange. Some have said that
we were steamrolled and because we had uh A problem
trying to quickly defend ourselves regarding the blood evidence, certain
things there were uh A problem. The things just were
(09:09):
very bad from then on and uh we were right behind,
uh well far behind the prosecution and in the way
they were being able to conduct it with such vigor.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
What do you believe happened to Azaria on that night?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Well, I'm still quite certain that Azaria was taken by
a dingo from the tent, and I feel sure that
she was killed by a dingo. But after that, what
happened to her, to me is a mystery.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Are you frustrated at the fact that there was no
motive ever established?
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Well, of course there was no motive that could be established.
I mean I'm not frustra frustrated about that. I do
get uh frustrated when people try and impuwter motive that
just isn't there.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Amidst all the questions, the cross examinations, did you at
any stage, even for a brief moment, that perhaps Lindy
could've carried out the killing.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
A lot of things went through my mind, but there
was never any evidence to me, to my knowledge, that
Lindy had anything to do with it at all.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Uh. I was very concerned about certain evidence.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
That was being presented, but on checking that out later,
much later, I was certain in my own mind that.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Everything was quite right. And as she had said it, did.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
You ever ask her or feel that you should ask
her if she'd been involved?
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Oh, I'd never put that sort of question to her
because that would be a a very blatant question. But
I did ask her questions regarding what she saw that
night at a later time after the night, and UH
checked very closely about certain things to see if indeed
it was as she said exactly.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
It's because some people would see you as a husband
doing the right thing and protecting his wife, just just
doing the job of a husband.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
That's a natural thing for a husband to do. And
I guess you could uh understand that. But if I
had known that Lindy had been any way involved in
this thing that she be convicted for, I would've uh
felt in the end as hard as it was to
uh do it as kindly as I could to inform
the right authorities. MM.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
When Lindy was giving evidence, was there anything she said
that surprised you or you didn't know about?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
There were minor details that I hadn't heard of before,
but probably only one or two. There was only a
very small amount that I wasn't aware of.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
What about the theory that Lindy could have killed his
area but convinced herself in her own mind that she
she hadn't.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Oh, I think that's uh total garbage, knowing Lindy.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
So if Lindy had have done wrong, you would've come
forward and done something about it.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Certainly they would have been very hard, but I would
have had to have done it, and I would have.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
When did you first realize after Azariad disappeared that you
and Lindy were under suspicion.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Well, it's rather strange because when I was in Townsville,
I think was the first to the third of September
for some minister's meetings with the church. My president came
up to me the end of the second or third
night and he said, have you heard the latest Michael?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I said no. He said, you know you're supposed to
be in the Townsville jail lock up.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
And I said what And he said yes, I said,
the rumor is going around that you've been put in
jail for killing Azaria.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Well I thought, well, here I am that Scotch a
Zat rumor.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
But that was the first time I had heard anything
overt about anything any problems going on with Philosopher.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
What was Lindy's reaction when you told her that that
sort of talk was going on, that you were under suspicion.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It was very disturbed about it.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
But I guess a mixture of uh being disturbed and
very amused about it.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
She thought it was a bit uh, very odd and
very funny.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Amused.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Well, she was amused by it, yes, hm, but in
a in a serious way, perhaps, I I can say,
you know she was perplexed, but she just thought it
was hilariously stupid to have said such a thing.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Just going back to the court, what was the Was
there anything that stands out in your mind as being
the toughest or most traumatic moment of all those days
in court.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
In the trial or the inquests, or which in neither
of them any Yes, Well, there were two very hard
days that we had that I can think of. One
of them when Joy Coole stood up and the court
room and announced uh that she'd found fetal butt in
the car.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Ah.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
That utterly devastated me. I thought the world had gone
mad when I heard that. I just could not work
out for one minute how that could be stated. And
it hit me very, very hard. I guess the other
experience that I had that was uh, very tough. And
there were many experiences which just about sank us completely.
(14:08):
And that was the last day in the court of
the the trial at Darwin, when the jury uh came
in uh because they'd been out so long I began
to wonder just what was the true intent of the
Jewish decision. And uh when I heard that foreman deliver
(14:28):
the uh the verdict about Lindy and myself as guilty,
I felt, I guess the smallest man on earth. Uh,
I just felt uh like crawling underground and never coming
up again. It was such a shocking announcement. I just
couldn't once again believe my ears.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Was there any time during the trial when you thought
you would both be found not guilty?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Well, yes, right from the moment that the prosecutor started
to present to present to their uh witnesses, I felt
that rather strange that so many of the witnesses who
were there on the night were being called by the
prosecution and perhap probably not by the defense, because uh
what the story that each one of them was presenting
(15:14):
was one of innocent action around the UH tenth site
that night, And of course the prosecution had to present
certain witnesses. But the first week of the trial it was, uh, well,
I wondered which way they were going to head after
presenting that sort of a case.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Or mister Chamberlain, on that note, we'll leave it, We'll
take a break and be back after this. Are you
surprised at the amount of public interest in.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
The case, Yes, I am really, I'm I'm continually amazed
at why people should want to talk to me, uh,
including yourself. But let me say this that, uh, while
Lindia is innocent, Uh, I know that this case can't die,
at least while Lindy is wrongfully convicted, this case cannot die.
(16:06):
And uh I guess uh the media particularly will show
interest until there is a clear resolution of this whole thing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Mm.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Talking about public interest, the courtroom was often crowded, overcrowded,
even women, I believed knitting in the courtroom.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yes, uh, that was quite interesting.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Actually yeah, I heard of one uh one lady next
door to one of these so called knitters, uh, scolding
them and saying what and you're concentrating on what the
court is about rather than uh, you know, doing this
mundane thing.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I believe.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Also outside the courtroom at one stage, two women were
seen in singlets with dingoes uh embroidered on them or
on the front of them. Did you ever see that
or hear about that? I saw it, And when you
saw it?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I saw it.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Perhaps about the third or fourth day at the beginning
of the uh trial and Darwen, what did you do
about it?
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Did you say?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I couldn't do anything about it, And really it was
inappropriate for me to say anything, but I was quite
upset about it.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
And those dingo jokes that have done the rounds of Australia,
have ever inadvertently overheard one?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
No one's ever told me any one of them in
a malicious way, but I've certainly read a few of
them and been rather disgusted.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Some of them are quite funny, but some of them
very poor taste.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Well, why do you think people would make jokes about
the death of a baby?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I find it rather hard to believe that people would
want to make jokes about the death of a baby.
It almost as if they're trying to turn asara into
an industry.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Do you ever feel guilty?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I do, socially guilty. When people look at you and
stare at you, I think, well, what are they thinking?
You know you feel at times quite unclean, And then
I stop and think, hey, come on, Mike, you know
what you are. You don't have to think that way
because you know that you're You're clean, You're.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
A man of God. Do you ever wonder Lord why me?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yes, I do. Many times. It's a.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
I guess I'm on a journey just now, the quest
for meaning. Why should this happen to us? I guess
I consider myself of just an average Australian in many ways,
no big deal as far as uh Minister of the
church is concerned, just moving along in a in a
fairly normal manner.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
And then suddenly this descends upon us. Uh.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
It's been very hard for me to uh see meaning
and purpose. And I have to confess that there are
times when I've doubted even the very existence of God.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
But uh, I'm glad that I've been able to pull.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Back from that idea and uh begin to realize that, yes,
he does love he does love me, he is concerned
about me, and he's concerned about mankind.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
So you've had changes of thinking, You've had regrets. Did
you ever regret perhaps having Azaria?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Never regretted having her? No, never regretted that.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Well, let's talk about those rumors, uh, surrounding the Azaria
Chamberlain case. Yes, I'd like to get you to comment
on them. The rumor that Azaria fell from a trolley
in the supermarket only weeks before.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yes, that is true.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I wasn't there, but uh, Lindy, being quite concerned about this,
immediately took it to doctor Milon to get a checked over.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
And Uh the results was.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I understand from doctor Milne that she was in perfect health.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
And the rumors they go on, uh that it was
a ritual killing and that Azaria was Azaria was a sacrifice.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well, that's total garbage, absolute rubbish.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
There's nothing in the theology of our church, or in
my ministry or in Lindy's thinking that h could ever
construe that sort of uh rubbish.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Uh. Rumors about the meaning of her name, How how
did you select Azaria's name and what does it mean?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Well, the name of Azaria's has been again proven in
court means basically blessed of God. I'd have my suspicions
as to how the false name got out. I think
it's emanated from a certain town in North Queensland.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
And I'd like to know.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Very much who started that rumor about sacrifice and the wilderness.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
I think I do know.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Er another rumor that one of your children could have
been involved in the in the in Azaria's disappearance at Israel, Well.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I thought that had been scotch many time in courts
of law. And uh, how that uh continues to be
prepared to I have no no idea how it could
or why it should.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Uh it refer any things taken from the house. It's
claimed that a Bible with passages marked in it relating
to the killing of a person with a tent peg
was taken from your home. Was that true or not?
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Well, the record of the warrant shows no such thing.
The Bible remained in my living room. It's still with
me today. I UH just can't imagine how that sort
of ridiculous remark should have ever been construed as fact.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Do you have any passages underlined in that Bible?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
You're welcome to look at it. I've not seen any.
It's a very old bible.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
It's an eighteen eighty four version, at least that's what's
written in the front to my great grandmother.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
And then the report of you having a baby coffin
in your house waiting for placing azeria in it?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Is it fuer complete without foundation?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I have a coffin.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
It was in the garage, and as has already been
said in the media, it was used as a five
day Plan visual aid to encourage.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
People rather quickly to give away their cigarettes.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
The report that Azaria was taken home from hospital after
her birth dressed in black, and some mothers would see
that as very unusual, dressing a baby and a few
weeks old dressed in black.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Hm, it's not only unusual, it's quite untrue. Lindy didn't
go home with Azaria dressed in black. However, at I
think her six weeks check up, Lindy did take Azaria
dressed in a black dress with red trim on it
to see doctor Milan.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Well, what's the relationship between you and Lindy?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
And now I just wish Terry that you could wave
a magic wand and say here's Lindy.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
You can go and hug her and kiss her. That's her.
I feel.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Were you always an affectionate couple basically? But we had
our moments like any marriage, just talking about the affection
and the feeling both of you come in and going
out of the court. When every Australian has seen you,
stony faced was an expression used, not a lot of
emotion being shown or a lot of affection for each other.
(23:03):
Did you consider how you would behave under those circumstances
both of you. Did you sit down and discuss it
for example.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Not really, no, because when you're before a camera with
the whole of Australia looking on, you don't usually relieve
show everything.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
That you would behind the closed door.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And we acted, I think, quite naturally under circumstances. But
it was a tremendous train.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
A lot of people, and I've heard them talk about it, say,
surely they would have shown more emotion as they were
leaving the court, coming and going with under some heavy
cross examination, a heavy day in court and showing not
a lot of emotion. Well, some people see that are strange.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Some people do, but that's the way we were. We
were so often shocked by the way the court was going.
We just couldn't believe it. And we were coming out
almost in a semi shocked state, almost oblivious.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
To what our e ever else was going on.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
Do you think you're as much in love now as
you were prior to all this, because the death of
a child and the family can cause can cause marriage
break ups.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yes, I realized that we had our times when we
were very upset with each other because of the stress.
Lindy wanted to talk about Asia's death, and I didn't
want to it was I just wanted to forget it.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
But now I can.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Talk about it, and uh, I guess when she comes
home there'll be things that we wanted to talk about
and share personal, intimate things about her beauty and joy
that we had.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
M I heard that Lindy seemed to enjoy the attention.
I can't imagine it, But did she No.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
I don't UH think that she enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I think she tried to conduct herself er in in
the most appropriate manner possible that some didn't see it
to be that way.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
How damaging could the enforced s depation be for your marriage?
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Well, nobody really knows. I would hate to think how
life would be saying, having to last a life term
imprisonment and that is Lindy being separated from me for
that time. I think that the strain would be wretched.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
It would.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Course, it would be worse than it is now. I
don't want to think about that.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
You mentioned you became angry with each other under the pressures,
et cetera. What sort of things did you talk about?
What sort of conversations did you have?
Speaker 3 (25:36):
It was relating to Azariah, How we loved her and
how we enjoyed having her before she died, and I
guess just generally about her death and how we felt
about it. To me, it was very hard to talk about,
but Lindy just wanted to wanted to mention it, and
(25:57):
I I would always seem to go silent on the matter.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
It was it overwhelmed me to talk about it. We
got too emotional.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
When Lindy fell pregnant with Carlia, it was UH rumored
suggested at the time that it was a ploy to
gain sympathy in the courts. How did you react to that?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Well, I think that was an unfortunate thing to have
been construed. First and foremost, we wanted another girl to
take the place of Azaria.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
UH. We wanted to fearly quickly.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
After Azaria to try and help the hurt that had
been caused by the loss. And UH, I think it's
unfortunate because at the time when UH Carlia was conceived,
we thought that the trial would have been a lot
sooner than it was.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
In fact, had it been at the time when.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
We thought it would be, uh, I don't think anyone
would have known that Uh, Lindy was pregnant.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Would you not have made an announcement about that? You
would have kept that a secret to in the family?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Ah, I think so, yes, Well we it was a
secret for four and a half months.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Do you think, mister Chamberlain, your life can Ah.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
I have no doubts that it can never be the same.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Now, do you ever regret how you handle things from
the beginning, from the from that from day one.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
I don't think I would've done it any other way?
H Looking back, I know that I'm a different person
to what I am now.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Probably I could be fairly leveled as being naive not
realizing probably the intentions of certain persons uh at the time.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Ah, But uh No, I don't really regret it.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
I know that I might've uh made some mistakes with
certain media personnel, but I don't regret it.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
No, that's life.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
What was your perception of the media then and now?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Well?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I really had uh a little perception of the media
before we first found ourselves on a a camera. I
think I know a little bit more now about media.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
About intentions and why the media does things.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
From time to Do you trust the media?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Uh? Not really?
Speaker 3 (28:18):
No.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Do you have any examples to give us of why
you wouldn't trust the media.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Problem is that we have uh the temptation I think
in the news world to print rumor, a gossip at
times under certain circumstances, rather than the more mundane of
what really did did occur At the time after.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
The first in question, that televised finding handed down by
the magistrate, Uh, you and Lindy left the court and
produced a photo of this area. Why did you do that?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Because I felt that.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Some people still doubted us, and I wanted to impress
on their minds that indeed Zarre was not a thick
uh a sickly baby. She was a macnetin kid, very
proud to have her, and I just wanted people to
know that she was that kind of girl. There had
been rumors about her being other than that, and I
(29:14):
was incensed about it. All our children have been beautiful children,
and Azara was no exception.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Well, that was over, so you were cleared. But what
was your action when after you'd been cleared, policemen came
to your home unannounced and said some new inquiries, runed
away and confiscated a whole lot of equipment from your home,
equipment that you had had with you at Asrak. What
were your thoughts then?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I just couldn't believe that the police should suspect us
of this crime that they said that we were guilty of.
I guess it might sound naive to you, but I
thought that they were there, probably to clear us for
once and for all. And I was only to willing
(30:00):
to give them whatever they wanted, plus anything else which
they did take. And I just couldn't believe that they
were there again looking for guilty people in that home
and guilty clothing or whatever.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
So you were totally cooperative when they.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Arrived, I certainly was.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
What about the photo of Azaria that came up in
the news only a few weeks ago now, and there
was a claim that the baby could not have been
on a nine and a half week old baby could
not have been Azaria because a baby of that age
could not hold a head erect and would not be
able to stand even supported in such a position. You
took the photo, he was there, Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I did.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
I think it was said on one of your earlier
interviews that I was the only person who would know.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Of course, that's not correct.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
My wife would have known, my children would have known,
and so would many of my friends in Mount Isa
who subsequently had I understand, made comment about it that
definitely was Asariah. She was a well formed little baby
and a very strong little baby, but she was not big.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
If you are guilty, as the courts have found, then
it must be very difficult for you, as a pastor
to believe that people must see you as telling you
having told a lot of lies.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I don't blame people for thinking that. That is, the
people who don't know us, or haven't read really the evidence,
or don't really know the evidence that is to come,
I can't blame them for that.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
And speaking of people's observation of you and your wife
and the whole case, so many Australians without facts before
you went to inquiries and to trials said are they're
guilty just on looks alone and what they'd read in papers?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yes, well that's the way of all flesh. Human nature
does do that many times. But the image so often
is not the real.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
What does it mean to you, being a religious man,
to have been convicted of being an accessory after the
fact of murder?
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Well, it's a it's a wretched thing.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's uh, it's.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
So horrible that I just hate to think about it
because being a minister of a church and having this stigma,
I I find it very hard to live when I
think about it, because it virtually wipes me out as
a as a person doing ministry.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Will it end your career as a pastor?
Speaker 3 (32:34):
I think it probably will is What do you think of.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
The system of justice in Australia.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
I think the system that we have in Australia is
a very good system. It's UH based on the Westminster system,
and I think it's well tried and UH in many
cases well proven. And I've got no real gripe with
uh the UH the legal system, except that I think,
like many things, it's in need of some reforms, and
I think our case highlights this.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
UH. The Arthur Allen Thomas case in New Zealand, I.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Think also showed that UH, not always does the legal
system come up with the right verdict. There are exceptions,
and you've got to expect to have that. So I
think that we need to continue to modify the system
and make it as effective as we can in order
to protect the innocent and UH bring to UH bring
(33:27):
the judgment the guilty.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Do you accept the role of the people who sat
in judgment on your case. The jury I'm speaking of
had a difficult one, and what would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I think that they probably had a very difficult role
in that they were in the Northern Territory, and uh
as one book and one newspaper at least have said
that a fear jury couldn't have been found in our springs.
And there probably was a very heavy question mark on
whether you could really think honestly as a Darwinian too
(33:57):
about the case.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
Uh, would you ever wanna go back to the territory,
back to Ares Rock?
Speaker 3 (34:04):
I think probably I've seen enough of Airs Rock for
a while, maybe one day at a later stage.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
I took a lot of photos while I was there.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
I've got some good memories of their place, uh, of
the rock, But of course, uh, I have some very
sad memories too.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I love I love the Northern Territory.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I'm really very sorry that, uh, that people feel the
way they do about us, because I'd love to go
around there and you know, do my little thing as
many other people do, like photographing and Barren Munday and
that sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
What have you been doing with your time since the
appeal was dismissed.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
Well, uh, since the High Court appeal, I guess the
best could say, I've been busily trying to defend myself
and my wife and get her out of jail.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Will you ever go public in a campaign to defend
uh yourself and Lindy?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
You mean uh as an a rally? Yes, I would
uh doubt it very much. Uh. It would be a.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Large dis last ditch attempt, I would think. Uh, that's
not the the way I see my role in this
uh continuing campaign to set it free.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
It must have been a very expensive exercise in monetary terms.
How much has it cost you?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Well, I don't really know. Uh A lot of money.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Uh. Most of the cost uh, or at least a significant
amount of it has been paid by Australian Legal aid
and the balance uh uh some way, somehow I feel
indebted to try and pay back to the church for
uh putting up the money to defend me.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Do you think you'll ever be able to pay it back?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Well, it's a six figure sum and if I had
to pay it back a back right now, I'd be
bankrupt a few times over.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I don't know. I'd like to be able to part back,
but seems like.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Uh, trying to build a mountain with a spade.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Can you actually earn money in your work?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Do you? Yes, I'm on a sustentation age.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Just how much does your reputation mean to you?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Well, I think that there's one thing more than reputation,
and that is my character. M My character can never
be destroyed from me. But of course my reputation, I
think isn't tatters h. It worries me greatly because it
prevents me from functioning anymore as uh a bona fide
minister in the community.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
Do you ever think I can't handle this and consider
you might have a breakdown?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
It's gone through my mind.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
It seems to get harder as we go along. Seems
as if we're being ground further and further into the swamp,
as it were. And recently it's been very very hard
for myself and for my children, particularly knowing now that
all the UH normal legal avenues are now cut off
from us. We've exhausted them.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
A perfect storm is a seven West meeting. Your podcast
This episode is not suitable for children to listen to
or overhear. It may contain course language, adult themes, and
graphic descriptions. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised
that the following program may contain the names of people
who have died.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I think Azaria would have lasted a matter of minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory Police who
were determined to get her.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
A Perfect Storm the true story of the Chamberlain's people
were saying to me, Oh, you're going there to see
that woman who killed a child.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Bad things happen to good people.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
He asked the foreman, have you reached a verdict?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
He said, yes, you're honor guilty.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Welcome to the extra archive material from A Perfect Storm.
This is Michael Chamberlain speaking with journalist Terry Willacey.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
That it has been a long time since you've talked.
Why have you d agreed to talk now?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Well, I think legally it is appropriate for me to
talk now. So often in the past it would have
been sub judacy for me to have said anything, and uh,
I just wanted to speak at the appropriate time and
it was right.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Is there anything particularly you wanted to say, what at
this point of time, HM, No, except that uh, my
wife is an innocent woman, and uh it'll be virtually
over my dead body that she'll stay in jail.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I'm going to fight for her exoneration. I believe she's
been wrongly convicted, and I'm gonna do my utmost to
uh clear my family's name and to see that she
is freed in the rightful way she ought to be.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
How is she accepting and coping with prison life?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I think that.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
She she's coping as best as anyone could in the situation,
but deep down, she is a very distressed woman, extremely upset.
She doesn't really know why she's there, and she's just
doing the best she can from day to day, coping
and trying to remain a human being.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
What about yourself, how your life has changed? Obviously will
talk about that. But how does strangers react to you,
people you meet in the street.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I find it very difficult because you never know what
other people are thinking when they look at you, and
quite frankly, it throws me off. Many times walking down
the street to go into shop to buy something, I
feel pretty crook, and so I don't do it. Very
often I get other people do it for me?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
What do you think that people might be thinking about you?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Well?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
When I look into their eyes sometimes, uh, all sorts
of things go through my mind.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Uh is it a.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Friendly look or is it one that can as I'm
a guilty person and they feel hostile towards me?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It does unnerve me.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
What do people say to you? Do people like to
talk to you about it or bring it up?
Speaker 3 (03:11):
People who don't know me apologize quite a lot about
bringing it up. My friends don't really talk about it
anymore because it's open and shut case for them.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
About what about the strangers? How do they what do
they ask you? Do they ask you specific questions or
they just want to talk about it in general.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I think they just want to talk about it in general,
or if they are there to get something cleared to
pass it on, then they'll ask me a specific question.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
What about your children the effect on them? Have you
explained to them or do they know what has happened?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
I think they know only too well what has happened.
We don't like talking about it too much because it's
so painful for us. I know Reagan has had on
the odd occasion from rather unfortunate dreams. I guess you
could call him nightmares about the night and Aidan is
very unhappy, very angry at times.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Reagan's nightmares. What sort of things did he dream about?
Did he tell you?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yes, he talked about the uh the dog walking over
him on the night of having uh dreams of feeling
the dog actually walking on him, over him to get
to Azaria.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
And that really UH shocked me.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
It's maybe wonder whether, in fact he may have been
awake at the time and UH was too frightened to
do anything.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Do his nightmares reach a conclusion? Ah?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Well, he is sure along with Aidan, that what UH
we believe happened in fact happened, and that indeed uh
Azaria Uh was taken by a dingo and Aidan, as
he said at the time and other times, said.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
The dingo was.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Uh hah had bubby and it's tummy and that was
uh a shocking thing to come out.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
And what about your newborn daughter, Carlia? What are you
doing with her? How are you caring for her?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Well, Carlia is being cared for by and large by
a foster mum, but Uh I see her as regularly
as I can and she uh, she's coping. She's a
marvelous little girl, m very socially adjusted.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
The whole case must engross almost your whole life. Do
you ever and can you still recall the events of
that night?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I remember certain events quite clearly.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yes, what stands in your mind most of all of
what happened that night?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
I think the most horrible thing of the evening was
the actual statement, uh, that dog's got my baby and
uh or some such thing. It was very similar to
that that I heard, And that was after I uh
recalled hearing get out a sort of a disgusted tone
from my wife.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
And U.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
When I heard that, I know, Greg and I just
the fellas of a bolt of lightning.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
It hit us.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
We were and then suddenly we moved very quickly afterwards
and raced out into the bush madly without torches at
the time, at least I didn't have a torch and
flailing around hoping that there's this animal might have dropped
her in a vicinity out of fright.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Not many hours after as there he disappeared. You were
taking photographs, which would seem strange if that's true.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yes, I took photographs the following morning. Years well, people
who know me don't think it's strange. They know that
I'm a very keen photographer. In fact, some have described
me as a photographic fanatic. But that wasn't the reason
why I took those photographs. I was really, deep down,
probably very hostile about the whole occurrence. I was determined
(07:03):
that this sort of thing must never happen again, and
for that reason I had to take a record of it,
a certificate, UH, for the release of death.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I think that's the way you put it. For a
coroner to investigate.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
The matter had already been signed, and it was fairly
clear in the minds of the authorities out there that
Azaria could not possibly still be alive, and Uh, I
didn't want to continue s to search for, uh, someone
who was dead, or for the remains that I might
come across. It would have been a horrific thing.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
So you'd abandon all hope at that stage.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Ah, the following morning, it was beyond reasonable doubt that
she had to be dead. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
When Azaria's clothing was discovered, it was said to be
in a in a I think the words were a
neat pile or in the pile as though tipped out
of a or just tipped onto the grove. How do you
explain that?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Well, I can't because I've er never seen any evidence
of that. Uh. There are only two reports presented in court,
one by uh a mister good One, the other one
by uh Constable Morris, and that even is a complete
mystery to me because uh both reports, in my view,
are quite different.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Why do you think you were found guilty?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I find it very perplexing as to why we were
found guilty, But I think there are a number of reasons.
I think it really started to occur at the second
in quest. There was such very bad publicity leading up
to the second in quest by certain media people, and
the inquest, in my opinion, was conducted in a way
(08:48):
that well, was a little strange. Some have said that
we were steamrolled and because we had uh A problem
trying to quickly defend ourselves regarding the blood evidence, certain
things there were uh A problem. The things just were
(09:09):
very bad from then on and uh we were right behind,
uh well far behind the prosecution and in the way
they were being able to conduct it with such vigor.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
What do you believe happened to Azaria on that night?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Well, I'm still quite certain that Azaria was taken by
a dingo from the tent, and I feel sure that
she was killed by a dingo. But after that, what
happened to her, to me is a mystery.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Are you frustrated at the fact that there was no
motive ever established?
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Well, of course there was no motive that could be established.
I mean I'm not frustra frustrated about that. I do
get uh frustrated when people try and impuwter motive that
just isn't there.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Amidst all the questions, the cross examinations, did you at
any stage, even for a brief moment, that perhaps Lindy
could've carried out the killing.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
A lot of things went through my mind, but there
was never any evidence to me, to my knowledge, that
Lindy had anything to do with it at all.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Uh. I was very concerned about certain evidence.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
That was being presented, but on checking that out later,
much later, I was certain in my own mind that.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Everything was quite right. And as she had said it, did.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
You ever ask her or feel that you should ask
her if she'd been involved?
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Oh, I'd never put that sort of question to her
because that would be a a very blatant question. But
I did ask her questions regarding what she saw that
night at a later time after the night, and UH
checked very closely about certain things to see if indeed
it was as she said exactly.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
It's because some people would see you as a husband
doing the right thing and protecting his wife, just just
doing the job of a husband.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
That's a natural thing for a husband to do. And
I guess you could uh understand that. But if I
had known that Lindy had been any way involved in
this thing that she be convicted for, I would've uh
felt in the end as hard as it was to
uh do it as kindly as I could to inform
the right authorities. MM.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
When Lindy was giving evidence, was there anything she said
that surprised you or you didn't know about?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
There were minor details that I hadn't heard of before,
but probably only one or two. There was only a
very small amount that I wasn't aware of.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
What about the theory that Lindy could have killed his
area but convinced herself in her own mind that she
she hadn't.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Oh, I think that's uh total garbage, knowing Lindy.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
So if Lindy had have done wrong, you would've come
forward and done something about it.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Certainly they would have been very hard, but I would
have had to have done it, and I would have.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
When did you first realize after Azariad disappeared that you
and Lindy were under suspicion.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Well, it's rather strange because when I was in Townsville,
I think was the first to the third of September
for some minister's meetings with the church. My president came
up to me the end of the second or third
night and he said, have you heard the latest Michael?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I said no. He said, you know you're supposed to
be in the Townsville jail lock up.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
And I said what And he said yes, I said,
the rumor is going around that you've been put in
jail for killing Azaria.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Well I thought, well, here I am that Scotch a
Zat rumor.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
But that was the first time I had heard anything
overt about anything any problems going on with Philosopher.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
What was Lindy's reaction when you told her that that
sort of talk was going on, that you were under suspicion.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It was very disturbed about it.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
But I guess a mixture of uh being disturbed and
very amused about it.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
She thought it was a bit uh, very odd and
very funny.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Amused.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Well, she was amused by it, yes, hm, but in
a in a serious way, perhaps, I I can say,
you know she was perplexed, but she just thought it
was hilariously stupid to have said such a thing.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Just going back to the court, what was the Was
there anything that stands out in your mind as being
the toughest or most traumatic moment of all those days
in court.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
In the trial or the inquests, or which in neither
of them any Yes, Well, there were two very hard
days that we had that I can think of. One
of them when Joy Coole stood up and the court
room and announced uh that she'd found fetal butt in
the car.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Ah.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
That utterly devastated me. I thought the world had gone
mad when I heard that. I just could not work
out for one minute how that could be stated. And
it hit me very, very hard. I guess the other
experience that I had that was uh, very tough. And
there were many experiences which just about sank us completely.
(14:08):
And that was the last day in the court of
the the trial at Darwin, when the jury uh came
in uh because they'd been out so long I began
to wonder just what was the true intent of the
Jewish decision. And uh when I heard that foreman deliver
(14:28):
the uh the verdict about Lindy and myself as guilty,
I felt, I guess the smallest man on earth. Uh,
I just felt uh like crawling underground and never coming
up again. It was such a shocking announcement. I just
couldn't once again believe my ears.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Was there any time during the trial when you thought
you would both be found not guilty?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Well, yes, right from the moment that the prosecutor started
to present to present to their uh witnesses, I felt
that rather strange that so many of the witnesses who
were there on the night were being called by the
prosecution and perhap probably not by the defense, because uh
what the story that each one of them was presenting
(15:14):
was one of innocent action around the UH tenth site
that night, And of course the prosecution had to present
certain witnesses. But the first week of the trial it was, uh, well,
I wondered which way they were going to head after
presenting that sort of a case.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Or mister Chamberlain, on that note, we'll leave it, We'll
take a break and be back after this. Are you
surprised at the amount of public interest in.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
The case, Yes, I am really, I'm I'm continually amazed
at why people should want to talk to me, uh,
including yourself. But let me say this that, uh, while
Lindia is innocent, Uh, I know that this case can't die,
at least while Lindy is wrongfully convicted, this case cannot die.
(16:06):
And uh I guess uh the media particularly will show
interest until there is a clear resolution of this whole thing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Mm.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Talking about public interest, the courtroom was often crowded, overcrowded,
even women, I believed knitting in the courtroom.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yes, uh, that was quite interesting.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Actually yeah, I heard of one uh one lady next
door to one of these so called knitters, uh, scolding
them and saying what and you're concentrating on what the
court is about rather than uh, you know, doing this
mundane thing.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I believe.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Also outside the courtroom at one stage, two women were
seen in singlets with dingoes uh embroidered on them or
on the front of them. Did you ever see that
or hear about that? I saw it, And when you
saw it?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I saw it.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Perhaps about the third or fourth day at the beginning
of the uh trial and Darwen, what did you do
about it?
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Did you say?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I couldn't do anything about it, And really it was
inappropriate for me to say anything, but I was quite
upset about it.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
And those dingo jokes that have done the rounds of Australia,
have ever inadvertently overheard one?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
No one's ever told me any one of them in
a malicious way, but I've certainly read a few of
them and been rather disgusted.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Some of them are quite funny, but some of them
very poor taste.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Well, why do you think people would make jokes about
the death of a baby?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I find it rather hard to believe that people would
want to make jokes about the death of a baby.
It almost as if they're trying to turn asara into
an industry.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Do you ever feel guilty?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I do, socially guilty. When people look at you and
stare at you, I think, well, what are they thinking?
You know you feel at times quite unclean, And then
I stop and think, hey, come on, Mike, you know
what you are. You don't have to think that way
because you know that you're You're clean, You're.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
A man of God. Do you ever wonder Lord why me?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yes, I do. Many times. It's a.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
I guess I'm on a journey just now, the quest
for meaning. Why should this happen to us? I guess
I consider myself of just an average Australian in many ways,
no big deal as far as uh Minister of the
church is concerned, just moving along in a in a
fairly normal manner.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
And then suddenly this descends upon us. Uh.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
It's been very hard for me to uh see meaning
and purpose. And I have to confess that there are
times when I've doubted even the very existence of God.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
But uh, I'm glad that I've been able to pull.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Back from that idea and uh begin to realize that, yes,
he does love he does love me, he is concerned
about me, and he's concerned about mankind.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
So you've had changes of thinking, You've had regrets. Did
you ever regret perhaps having Azaria?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Never regretted having her? No, never regretted that.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Well, let's talk about those rumors, uh, surrounding the Azaria
Chamberlain case. Yes, I'd like to get you to comment
on them. The rumor that Azaria fell from a trolley
in the supermarket only weeks before.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yes, that is true.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I wasn't there, but uh, Lindy, being quite concerned about this,
immediately took it to doctor Milon to get a checked over.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
And Uh the results was.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I understand from doctor Milne that she was in perfect health.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
And the rumors they go on, uh that it was
a ritual killing and that Azaria was Azaria was a sacrifice.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well, that's total garbage, absolute rubbish.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
There's nothing in the theology of our church, or in
my ministry or in Lindy's thinking that h could ever
construe that sort of uh rubbish.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Uh. Rumors about the meaning of her name, How how
did you select Azaria's name and what does it mean?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Well, the name of Azaria's has been again proven in
court means basically blessed of God. I'd have my suspicions
as to how the false name got out. I think
it's emanated from a certain town in North Queensland.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
And I'd like to know.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Very much who started that rumor about sacrifice and the wilderness.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
I think I do know.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Er another rumor that one of your children could have
been involved in the in the in Azaria's disappearance at Israel, Well.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I thought that had been scotch many time in courts
of law. And uh, how that uh continues to be
prepared to I have no no idea how it could
or why it should.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Uh it refer any things taken from the house. It's
claimed that a Bible with passages marked in it relating
to the killing of a person with a tent peg
was taken from your home. Was that true or not?
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Well, the record of the warrant shows no such thing.
The Bible remained in my living room. It's still with
me today. I UH just can't imagine how that sort
of ridiculous remark should have ever been construed as fact.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Do you have any passages underlined in that Bible?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
You're welcome to look at it. I've not seen any.
It's a very old bible.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
It's an eighteen eighty four version, at least that's what's
written in the front to my great grandmother.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
And then the report of you having a baby coffin
in your house waiting for placing azeria in it?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Is it fuer complete without foundation?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I have a coffin.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
It was in the garage, and as has already been
said in the media, it was used as a five
day Plan visual aid to encourage.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
People rather quickly to give away their cigarettes.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
The report that Azaria was taken home from hospital after
her birth dressed in black, and some mothers would see
that as very unusual, dressing a baby and a few
weeks old dressed in black.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Hm, it's not only unusual, it's quite untrue. Lindy didn't
go home with Azaria dressed in black. However, at I
think her six weeks check up, Lindy did take Azaria
dressed in a black dress with red trim on it
to see doctor Milan.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Well, what's the relationship between you and Lindy?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
And now I just wish Terry that you could wave
a magic wand and say here's Lindy.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
You can go and hug her and kiss her. That's her.
I feel.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Were you always an affectionate couple basically? But we had
our moments like any marriage, just talking about the affection
and the feeling both of you come in and going
out of the court. When every Australian has seen you,
stony faced was an expression used, not a lot of
emotion being shown or a lot of affection for each other.
(23:03):
Did you consider how you would behave under those circumstances
both of you. Did you sit down and discuss it
for example.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Not really, no, because when you're before a camera with
the whole of Australia looking on, you don't usually relieve
show everything.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
That you would behind the closed door.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And we acted, I think, quite naturally under circumstances. But
it was a tremendous train.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
A lot of people, and I've heard them talk about it, say,
surely they would have shown more emotion as they were
leaving the court, coming and going with under some heavy
cross examination, a heavy day in court and showing not
a lot of emotion. Well, some people see that are strange.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Some people do, but that's the way we were. We
were so often shocked by the way the court was going.
We just couldn't believe it. And we were coming out
almost in a semi shocked state, almost oblivious.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
To what our e ever else was going on.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
Do you think you're as much in love now as
you were prior to all this, because the death of
a child and the family can cause can cause marriage
break ups.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yes, I realized that we had our times when we
were very upset with each other because of the stress.
Lindy wanted to talk about Asia's death, and I didn't
want to it was I just wanted to forget it.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
But now I can.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Talk about it, and uh, I guess when she comes
home there'll be things that we wanted to talk about
and share personal, intimate things about her beauty and joy
that we had.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
M I heard that Lindy seemed to enjoy the attention.
I can't imagine it, But did she No.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
I don't UH think that she enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I think she tried to conduct herself er in in
the most appropriate manner possible that some didn't see it
to be that way.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
How damaging could the enforced s depation be for your marriage?
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Well, nobody really knows. I would hate to think how
life would be saying, having to last a life term
imprisonment and that is Lindy being separated from me for
that time. I think that the strain would be wretched.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
It would.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Course, it would be worse than it is now. I
don't want to think about that.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
You mentioned you became angry with each other under the pressures,
et cetera. What sort of things did you talk about?
What sort of conversations did you have?
Speaker 3 (25:36):
It was relating to Azariah, How we loved her and
how we enjoyed having her before she died, and I
guess just generally about her death and how we felt
about it. To me, it was very hard to talk about,
but Lindy just wanted to wanted to mention it, and
(25:57):
I I would always seem to go silent on the matter.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
It was it overwhelmed me to talk about it. We
got too emotional.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
When Lindy fell pregnant with Carlia, it was UH rumored
suggested at the time that it was a ploy to
gain sympathy in the courts. How did you react to that?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Well, I think that was an unfortunate thing to have
been construed. First and foremost, we wanted another girl to
take the place of Azaria.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
UH. We wanted to fearly quickly.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
After Azaria to try and help the hurt that had
been caused by the loss. And UH, I think it's
unfortunate because at the time when UH Carlia was conceived,
we thought that the trial would have been a lot
sooner than it was.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
In fact, had it been at the time when.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
We thought it would be, uh, I don't think anyone
would have known that Uh, Lindy was pregnant.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Would you not have made an announcement about that? You
would have kept that a secret to in the family?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Ah, I think so, yes, Well we it was a
secret for four and a half months.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Do you think, mister Chamberlain, your life can Ah.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
I have no doubts that it can never be the same.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Now, do you ever regret how you handle things from
the beginning, from the from that from day one.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
I don't think I would've done it any other way?
H Looking back, I know that I'm a different person
to what I am now.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Probably I could be fairly leveled as being naive not
realizing probably the intentions of certain persons uh at the time.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Ah, But uh No, I don't really regret it.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
I know that I might've uh made some mistakes with
certain media personnel, but I don't regret it.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
No, that's life.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
What was your perception of the media then and now?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Well?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I really had uh a little perception of the media
before we first found ourselves on a a camera. I
think I know a little bit more now about media.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
About intentions and why the media does things.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
From time to Do you trust the media?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Uh? Not really?
Speaker 3 (28:18):
No.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Do you have any examples to give us of why
you wouldn't trust the media.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Problem is that we have uh the temptation I think
in the news world to print rumor, a gossip at
times under certain circumstances, rather than the more mundane of
what really did did occur At the time after.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
The first in question, that televised finding handed down by
the magistrate, Uh, you and Lindy left the court and
produced a photo of this area. Why did you do that?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Because I felt that.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Some people still doubted us, and I wanted to impress
on their minds that indeed Zarre was not a thick
uh a sickly baby. She was a macnetin kid, very
proud to have her, and I just wanted people to
know that she was that kind of girl. There had
been rumors about her being other than that, and I
(29:14):
was incensed about it. All our children have been beautiful children,
and Azara was no exception.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Well, that was over, so you were cleared. But what
was your action when after you'd been cleared, policemen came
to your home unannounced and said some new inquiries, runed
away and confiscated a whole lot of equipment from your home,
equipment that you had had with you at Asrak. What
were your thoughts then?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I just couldn't believe that the police should suspect us
of this crime that they said that we were guilty of.
I guess it might sound naive to you, but I
thought that they were there, probably to clear us for
once and for all. And I was only to willing
(30:00):
to give them whatever they wanted, plus anything else which
they did take. And I just couldn't believe that they
were there again looking for guilty people in that home
and guilty clothing or whatever.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
So you were totally cooperative when they.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Arrived, I certainly was.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
What about the photo of Azaria that came up in
the news only a few weeks ago now, and there
was a claim that the baby could not have been
on a nine and a half week old baby could
not have been Azaria because a baby of that age
could not hold a head erect and would not be
able to stand even supported in such a position. You
took the photo, he was there, Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I did.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
I think it was said on one of your earlier
interviews that I was the only person who would know.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Of course, that's not correct.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
My wife would have known, my children would have known,
and so would many of my friends in Mount Isa
who subsequently had I understand, made comment about it that
definitely was Asariah. She was a well formed little baby
and a very strong little baby, but she was not big.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
If you are guilty, as the courts have found, then
it must be very difficult for you, as a pastor
to believe that people must see you as telling you
having told a lot of lies.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I don't blame people for thinking that. That is, the
people who don't know us, or haven't read really the evidence,
or don't really know the evidence that is to come,
I can't blame them for that.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
And speaking of people's observation of you and your wife
and the whole case, so many Australians without facts before
you went to inquiries and to trials said are they're
guilty just on looks alone and what they'd read in papers?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yes, well that's the way of all flesh. Human nature
does do that many times. But the image so often
is not the real.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
What does it mean to you, being a religious man,
to have been convicted of being an accessory after the
fact of murder?
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Well, it's a it's a wretched thing.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's uh, it's.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
So horrible that I just hate to think about it
because being a minister of a church and having this stigma,
I I find it very hard to live when I
think about it, because it virtually wipes me out as
a as a person doing ministry.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Will it end your career as a pastor?
Speaker 3 (32:34):
I think it probably will is What do you think of.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
The system of justice in Australia.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
I think the system that we have in Australia is
a very good system. It's UH based on the Westminster system,
and I think it's well tried and UH in many
cases well proven. And I've got no real gripe with
uh the UH the legal system, except that I think,
like many things, it's in need of some reforms, and
I think our case highlights this.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
UH. The Arthur Allen Thomas case in New Zealand, I.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Think also showed that UH, not always does the legal
system come up with the right verdict. There are exceptions,
and you've got to expect to have that. So I
think that we need to continue to modify the system
and make it as effective as we can in order
to protect the innocent and UH bring to UH bring
(33:27):
the judgment the guilty.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Do you accept the role of the people who sat
in judgment on your case. The jury I'm speaking of
had a difficult one, and what would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I think that they probably had a very difficult role
in that they were in the Northern Territory, and uh
as one book and one newspaper at least have said
that a fear jury couldn't have been found in our springs.
And there probably was a very heavy question mark on
whether you could really think honestly as a Darwinian too
(33:57):
about the case.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
Uh, would you ever wanna go back to the territory,
back to Ares Rock?
Speaker 3 (34:04):
I think probably I've seen enough of Airs Rock for
a while, maybe one day at a later stage.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
I took a lot of photos while I was there.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
I've got some good memories of their place, uh, of
the rock, But of course, uh, I have some very
sad memories too.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I love I love the Northern Territory.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I'm really very sorry that, uh, that people feel the
way they do about us, because I'd love to go
around there and you know, do my little thing as
many other people do, like photographing and Barren Munday and
that sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
What have you been doing with your time since the
appeal was dismissed.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
Well, uh, since the High Court appeal, I guess the
best could say, I've been busily trying to defend myself
and my wife and get her out of jail.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Will you ever go public in a campaign to defend
uh yourself and Lindy?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
You mean uh as an a rally? Yes, I would
uh doubt it very much. Uh. It would be a.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Large dis last ditch attempt, I would think. Uh, that's
not the the way I see my role in this
uh continuing campaign to set it free.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
It must have been a very expensive exercise in monetary terms.
How much has it cost you?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Well, I don't really know. Uh A lot of money.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Uh. Most of the cost uh, or at least a significant
amount of it has been paid by Australian Legal aid
and the balance uh uh some way, somehow I feel
indebted to try and pay back to the church for
uh putting up the money to defend me.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Do you think you'll ever be able to pay it back?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Well, it's a six figure sum and if I had
to pay it back a back right now, I'd be
bankrupt a few times over.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I don't know. I'd like to be able to part back,
but seems like.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Uh, trying to build a mountain with a spade.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Can you actually earn money in your work?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Do you? Yes, I'm on a sustentation age.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Just how much does your reputation mean to you?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Well, I think that there's one thing more than reputation,
and that is my character. M My character can never
be destroyed from me. But of course my reputation, I
think isn't tatters h. It worries me greatly because it
prevents me from functioning anymore as uh a bona fide
minister in the community.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
Do you ever think I can't handle this and consider
you might have a breakdown?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
It's gone through my mind.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
It seems to get harder as we go along. Seems
as if we're being ground further and further into the swamp,
as it were. And recently it's been very very hard
for myself and for my children, particularly knowing now that
all the UH normal legal avenues are now cut off
from us. We've exhausted them.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
A perfect storm is a seven West meeting. Your podcast
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