Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised that the
following program may contain the names of people who have died.
A perfect storm. The true story of the Chamberlains.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I think Azariah would have lasted a matter of minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory police who
were determined to get her.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
People were saying to me, Oh, you're going there to
see that woman who killed a child.
Speaker 5 (00:28):
Bad things happen to good people.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
He asked the foreman, have you reached a verdict?
Speaker 6 (00:33):
He said, yes, you're honor guilty.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Episode four, Person or Persons unknown.
Speaker 7 (00:46):
Hello, My name is John Buck. I work in the
development group here at seven Studios, where we create new
TV shows and podcasts for broadcasting and streaming around the world.
I started making a documentary late last year about a
miscarriage of justice, one of the worst in this country's
history and one of the most famous. An innocent mother,
(01:10):
Lindy Chamberlain went to jail. But why did she go
to jail? And maybe more importantly, can this all happen again?
Can another family drive into a perfect storm of poor
police work, dangerous animals, faulty forensics, witness bullying, powerful lobby
(01:31):
groups and a suspicious public. According to government records, the
deaths of children account for less than one percent of
Australia's total. It's rare, yet these deaths are common on television,
news and newspapers. I asked former judge Kenneth Raphael, who
has decades of experience in the law, what drove an
(01:54):
even greater interest in the Chamberlain case.
Speaker 8 (01:58):
I don't think it was just because it was a
that was killed here. I think it was a Dingo's story.
That's what got everybody into it. Most people live on
the coast, I've seen it Dingo in their lives, certainly
got no idea about the propensity of Dingo's to take
prey and they couldn't believe it. They couldn't believe it
forse just impossible.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
The Northern Territory Police were also convinced it was impossible.
Their forensic tests on Azaria's jumpsuit and nappy suggested human
involvement in the baby's death. Detective Chargeant Graham Childwood interviewed
the Chamberlain separately at the Mount iSER Police station. He
asked Lindy one hundred and sixty five questions, including asking
(02:45):
her to confirm the baby she's holding in that famous
photo on Airsroch was actually Azariah. Childwood had not offered
missus Chamberlain a caution, a typical move by the police
if they suspect a person of rowing. When Michael Chamberlain
sat down to be questioned, Childwood immediately cautioned him. I
(03:07):
asked Duncan mcmah, a former detective and private investigator of
twenty years, what the strategy may.
Speaker 9 (03:14):
Have been the premise of that, And you can only
guess what was going through their mind. The premise of that,
for me would have been based on what she had
said and the other evidence they had garnered. They believed
that Michael was in fact responsible.
Speaker 7 (03:27):
You would imagined that would caution her.
Speaker 9 (03:30):
There is a composer, sometimes devious, heaven forbid, and one
way to do that might have been that they bring
him in, cautioned him, interviewing, charge him with a conspiracy
or as has been complicit the crime. On the basis
that his wife would say he didn't do it, I
did it. My nasty mind suggests that they're thinking, well,
(03:54):
if we squeeze him, she might just tell the truth.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
Michael Chamberlain's matched that of his wife, but there were
enough variations in their combined testimony to bother the.
Speaker 9 (04:05):
Police stories with slight variations. Absolutely, everyone sees things differently,
but it's when the variations get too wild or they're
no variations, you think. And I think one of the
issues with the Chamberlains was the variations may have been
slightly on the edges of credible.
Speaker 7 (04:24):
Detective Graham Childwood flew to airs Rock with Coroner Dennis
Barrett to survey the scene of Azariah Chamberlain's death. Within
a week, Barrett set a hearing date.
Speaker 10 (04:36):
Lennon died before police could get him to a hospital
one mile away.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
His attacker made no attempt to flee.
Speaker 7 (04:43):
For many of the people I've spoken to, the first
inquest feels just like yesterday, but it was almost forty
years ago.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Starr flew from Europe to console Lennon's wife and.
Speaker 7 (04:53):
Their five year old sign as the coroner began hearing
witness testimony. In December nineteen eighty, the world was still
mourning the death of former beatle John Lennon.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I think whenever a big court story came up, the
boss selected me to go and cover the court case
because of my background.
Speaker 7 (05:16):
A young Linda Scott had already covered courtrooms as far
apart as London and Brisbane, but she was now in
the outback Austray in town of Alice Springs, reporting on
Coroner Barrett's inquiry.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
He may have been the next policeman, but he didn't
appear to that. He had the aura of one of
the old time magistrates that we was used to in
court in those days. Firm but very very fair.
Speaker 11 (05:42):
He sort of made you feel comfortable with being there.
Speaker 7 (05:46):
Sally Shaw and her husband Greg were with the chamberlains
on the night of Asari's disappearance. She'd heard the baby's
last cry, and Sally came to be the most important witness.
Speaker 11 (05:59):
Well, I suppose way in anything like that, you feel
like you're on trial. People are looking at you, all
the media outside all that. It was like you were
in a bit of a preciate cooker. So I found
it quite daunting.
Speaker 12 (06:13):
I'm not actually for a comment or anything like that.
Speaker 13 (06:14):
But I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
When you can print it.
Speaker 11 (06:20):
Was there to try and find out what happened, just
tell me the facts so that he could make a decision.
So I felt he was very fair in that sense. Yeah,
he didn't. He didn't have an agenda. He was just
there purely to find out the facts and make some
kind of decision.
Speaker 7 (06:39):
Derek Roff, the head park ranger who led the search
for Azaria, was also called as a witness.
Speaker 10 (06:46):
When I was a police when we are awareing keenre
and what have you, and I gave the evidence and
I saw that I knew and what have you, and
the Obriagonal people would convinced that Dingo was the party,
and I certainly was. They held the view very strongly
that it was the Dingle that was responsible for Asari
as me and taken. There was no way. I don't
(07:08):
know one Amoragon who held a different view the Dinga
was accused. In my opinion, the Dinga was guilty.
Speaker 14 (07:17):
It just dominated news headlines every day. I mean, I
was working on the biggest story in Australia at the time.
Speaker 7 (07:23):
Kim Tillbrook had started as a cadet at the Adelaide
Advertiser in nineteen sixty nine and he was now a
senior reporter for the newspaper.
Speaker 14 (07:32):
I ended up covering the first in quest. There was
a lot of evidence that sort of sea sawt You
thought one day early on in the first in quest,
I thought it must have been the dingo. Then it
couldn't have been the dingo, But after a couple of
days I came to the opinion that it was the dingo.
Speaker 15 (07:49):
The chamberlains were given a bodyguard during the first part
of the inquest in December after death.
Speaker 14 (07:53):
But a lot of people found that Lindy seemed very cold.
She just sit there in call and she never never
appeared to cry or be upset, and I think a
lot of people took that the wrong way. And whereas
Michael would get upset and court he would cry, he'd
cry quite easily in court.
Speaker 16 (08:11):
An anonymous caller told police there was a bomb on
the first floor of the hotel for Alice Hotel, which.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Happens to be there.
Speaker 14 (08:18):
But I remember going to their motel room one night
after a bomb scare they'd been shifted to another hotel
and found them there and Michael was quite bubbly, but
Lindy was very upset and crying, you know, because the
day's evidence had taken a toll on her.
Speaker 7 (08:35):
I wondered what Malcolm Brown and Linda Scott made of
the media pack. So there's a large group of TV, newspaper,
magazine and radio reporters.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I was never a part of the media pack, and
that didd be a lot of disservice as well. Beyond
previous stories I've been a part of the pack, it
was never one of them.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
It was hard to get a job as a general
reporter if you're a woman, especially on newspapers, you were
shoved into the women's news social section. So there weren't
many general women reporters around then. So yeah, the guys
were very blokey, the male reporters. They mostly came from
Sydney and they drank together. I wasn't a drinker, so
(09:16):
I didn't join it, and I wasn't particularly interested.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I just preferred to I stayed at a different motel.
I never wanted to be part of that media pact
because the trouble is they start to swap ideas. They
talked to each other about if they compare what each
are saying, and they're very anxious that they look after
each other, but they collude in what they're going to
say and they form an agreement. And I just didn't
want to be part of it.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
After a hard day in court listening to seven hours
of evidence and then trying to put together a story.
The last thing I wanted to do was to chat
to them. I'd rather go to bed early and prepare
for the next day. So I certainly didn't fit in
with the boys club that was there, but yeah, it
was a boys club.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
There was a tendency among the media, to among the
mainstream media, to believe the police line and to take
the Bener murders.
Speaker 16 (10:06):
The Chamberlains were showing some sign of strain today, But
before court, mister Chamberlain told me that he was gaining
some strength from the Bible, particularly from Psalm eighty, which reads,
in part, aroused thy strength and come to our rescue.
Oh God, caused thy face to show.
Speaker 7 (10:22):
Despite the fact that more than seventy five percent of
Australians said they were Christians in the nineteen eighty one census,
Azaria's parents were neither Catholic nor Anglican, which made up
the vast majority of churchgoers. Stuart Tipple became the Chamberlain's
longest serving lawyer.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
Not only were they from a small religious body, but
he you've got a minister of that which put them
in a different category again.
Speaker 7 (10:52):
So I'm already hearing. One reason that this can all
happen again religion, or to be honest, not my religion.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
And even today a lot of those rumors people believe.
I still meet people who think Azari immense sacrifice in
the wilderness. So religion was a big factor. And the
fact that they came from a church that is, you know,
a small group compared to the mainstream, meant, oh, well,
(11:25):
you know, they must be odd. There's something different about them.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And religion was a big deal in a lot of
people's lives. So the fact she was this unusual religion,
I think that stirred up a lot of suspicions and
then just carried in through the inquest and then it.
Speaker 14 (11:41):
Grew and grew.
Speaker 7 (11:43):
Not only did Linda Scott work as one of the
few female journalists on the Chamberlain story, she helped create
Australian television history.
Speaker 16 (11:51):
There's a possibility that we could be televising the Coroners
Finding on Friday. As he brings it down, mister Barrett.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Is Now we were the ones who come up with
idea of broadcasting live mister Barrett's findings.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah that's pretty good, Tata.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Yeah, yep, it only came about because we had a
technician who was a genius. Gary Tait said to me, hey,
would you like to broadcast his findings? Of course we would,
but is this technically possibly? He said, yeah, I'll just
plug a few things here and there and join this
up and do that. I'm sure we can do it.
I approached mister Barrett and said, we're very keen to
(12:31):
present your finding exactly as you say it, and you've
told us all the way along that you want fair reporting.
I now find that it's technically possible for us to
broadcast your finding live.
Speaker 16 (12:43):
In a history making move. Our cameras will be allowed
in court to televise the proceedings live.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Barrett he was so upset by the degree of hostility
towards the Chamberlain and the hysteria and the speculation that
he agreed to go on next television and to public
the televis his finding so as to put the rest
forever the speculation that something else happened other than a
(13:11):
dingo attack. Good bonding.
Speaker 13 (13:13):
I'm Frank Warwick.
Speaker 15 (13:14):
We are standing by now to cross live to the
Alice Springs Courthouse for the findings of the Inquest into
the disappearance of baby Azaria Chamberlain. Last August, I have
the picture from Alice Springs coming through my monitor.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
Six months after Azaria's death, the coroner brought the inquest
to an end.
Speaker 12 (13:30):
In quest touching the death of Assaria Chamberlain resumed.
Speaker 7 (13:34):
The fifty four year old Barrett himself a former detective
of seventeen years, was of medium height, boarding and with thick,
dark rimmed glasses. He wore the typical clothes for summer
in Alice Springs, a short sleeved white shirt and khaki pants.
Speaker 13 (13:52):
He allowed outside eyes and ears into his cord so
it could be seen and heard at the instant that
he's saying it. And that adds a whole new dimension
to crime stories and reporting and makes it far more
attractive to the listener and the viewer. And that's what
(14:13):
we found. That's what turned it into such a mega
case and one that will live forever in Australian crime history.
Speaker 12 (14:22):
This in quest has demonstrated very clearly the resourcefulness, initiative
and determination of members and officers of the Northern Territory
Police Force in the field to intelligently organize every resource
conceivable to achieve success in such a complexed investigation.
Speaker 7 (14:46):
While Barrett had praise for the Northern Territory Police, he
was schething in his criticism of the forensic team.
Speaker 12 (14:53):
I agree with mister McNay that supervision within the section
must be negligent.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
In the extreme, Barrett thought the investigation was slipshot. He
was particularly critical of a woman in the police forensic section.
Speaker 12 (15:10):
That she had been taught none of the principles of
scientific objectivity. Is even more alarming, although understandable, when her
superior appears to be also ignorant of such a basic quality.
Police forces must realize or be made to realize, that
(15:31):
courts will not tolerate any standard less than complete objectivity
from anyone claiming to be making scientific observations.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Barrett was very critical National Parks of WILDLFE Service for
not culling the wildlife and keeping them away from the campers.
Speaker 12 (15:51):
A conduct of dingoes around campsites, together with their potensity
to enter tense, was known or ought to have been known.
Yet in the face of this knowledge, dingoes have been
retained and indeed allowed to virtually infest the area.
Speaker 13 (16:08):
You saw the full warts and all of what the
coroner was saying now to most people sitting through that
is quite a difficult experience, a because it's not particularly entertaining,
and b it can be quite gruesome in its detaype.
Speaker 12 (16:22):
The sprays of blood on the exterior of the tent,
where sprays of arterial blood coming from Azaria's head or neck.
Speaker 7 (16:31):
Coroner Barrett then spoke about the clothing of Azaria that
had been found, and it surprised.
Speaker 12 (16:37):
Many it would appear the clothing was meant to be found.
This wo may have been to support the proposition that
the child had been fully eaten that it had.
Speaker 8 (16:52):
Been This may have been to support the proposition that
the car had been fully eaten and that had been
taken by a dingo. It's an odd way of putting things,
but I think he was probably pretty anxious on behalf
of the parents that they might be closed. That's my
(17:12):
reading of what occurred.
Speaker 7 (17:14):
Barrett then arrived at his key findings. He agreed with
witnesses like Derreck roth Nipperwin Marty, and Sally Shaw.
Speaker 12 (17:23):
I do find that Azaria Chantel lore N Chamberlain, a
child then of nine weeks of age, met her death
when attacked by a wild dingo whilst asleep in a
family's tent at the top camping area Airs Rock, shortly
after eight pm on the seventeenth of August nineteen eighty.
(17:45):
I further find that in attempting to remove this babe
from the tent, the dingo would have caused severe crush
into the base of the skull and neck and lacerations
to the threaten neck. Such injuries would have resulted in
swift death. I further find that neither the parents of
the child nor either of their remaining children were in
(18:09):
any degree whatsoever responsible for this death.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Barrett was very clear in his finding that neither the
Chamblains nor any of their children were involved in the
disappearance of his area.
Speaker 11 (18:25):
It had already been a lot of nastiness, so we
were hoping that this is it. They've got the facts,
that's it, It'll all be over and what have you.
Speaker 7 (18:37):
But what Barrett said next made sure it wasn't all over.
Speaker 12 (18:42):
This case clearly emphasizes that the choice has to be
made between dingoes on one hand and terrorism on the other.
Speaker 7 (18:53):
Although Barrett was clearly challenging powerful groups like the tourism
industry and police force, they'd probably expected this from a coroner,
and if Dennis Barrett had finished there, it's unlikely that
there would be part two and part three of the
Chamberlain's story. The parents would have returned home to grieve
(19:14):
in private, surrounded by their friends and family, and it's
probably what the late coroner wanted, But of course that's
not what happened. The coroner had one more paragraph.
Speaker 12 (19:27):
To read, The body of Azaria was taken from the
possession of a dingo and disposed of by an unknown
method by a person or person's name unknown.
Speaker 13 (19:39):
You enter a date to be iced.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
He had no option but to say that it was
a possibility that where the clothing was found, it had
been placed there by other people or as he described them,
and persons that were unknown.
Speaker 7 (19:58):
I asked former Federal Circuit Court Judge Kenneth Raphael his
opinion on the coroner's final paragraph.
Speaker 8 (20:05):
The Northern Territory Police could have gone off and made
a really big search and asked a lot of people
around the place to see whether they could discover who
might have found the body and disposed of the body
and dealt with the clothes. It's independent of the cause
of the death of the child. The Northern Territory Police
(20:28):
could have said, Okay, we accept that the adingo took
the baby and killed it, but there is an outstanding problem.
We don't want people running around disposing of bodies or
and gone and investigated that. But that's not what they did.
They didn't do that. They went around and took the
criticism of their forensic evidence and then tried to look
(20:51):
at the forensics again. For what purpose one doesn't know,
but one suspects it was because they were still convinced
of the guilt of the chamberlains.
Speaker 7 (21:01):
I wondered what Malcolm Brown thought of Coroner Barrett's decision
to broadcast his findings.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Because he thought by doing that he would put them
in at a rest. Instead of that he in his
creditors of the Authern Territory Police Rangers and the forensic
he simply stirred them up to to go to further
lengths to solve what they thought was a continuing mystery.
So backfired.
Speaker 7 (21:25):
Really, The police and forensic experts left the court determined
to recheck their evidence. But the Chamberlain's left the court
and spoke to the media.
Speaker 8 (21:38):
Well, then it's over, Michael, has it finished for you?
Speaker 6 (21:41):
Now it's the start of another new life for us.
It's been six months of disappointment and tragedy and humiliation.
But are still standing any business?
Speaker 17 (21:58):
No bitterness.
Speaker 18 (22:00):
But haven't you been made to feel as though at
sometimes you've been on trial?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
That would be so you beno grudge, Lindy.
Speaker 12 (22:09):
Will you be able to settle down and lead a normal.
Speaker 13 (22:11):
Life after this?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
How do you feel with the chairman?
Speaker 11 (22:16):
I think we don't feel the same.
Speaker 18 (22:19):
Well, what do you feel of the people who have
spread rumors and there has been the innuendo that the
coroner spoke of today they.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Have not understood the true facts of the case and
they would just have to make their peace with their
God just got back as a picture as she really was,
a proved of the world that she was, as we said,
her most beautiful past.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
The thing that sends out to me mostly though, was
the press conference when they came out after that and
they unfool this huge photo of Azaria. Now that struck
me as very very strange. Why was this big photo
being unfurled? These brief parents were there, But then they
(23:04):
should have just quietly Maybe I thought they should have
just thanked the coroner for his finding and just gone
off quietly. But they didn't.
Speaker 13 (23:12):
I thought it was a very odd way of marking
the moment in time that traditionally most parents, you would think,
would still be in the grieving process and probably would
want to avoid the media or have a third person,
their lawyer or another family spokesperson speak to the media
rather than them stand there and unfurl a larger than
(23:36):
life poster of Azaria.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
In those days, too, a big poster size photograph was
something very very rare. You didn't see them. It seemed
not suspicious, but it was just unusual, and it gave
the media more fodder.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
They are on people all the way through, and they
were the things they did, the decisions they made, but
none of that spoke of guilty. Just I've always said
that there's no law saying how people react to a
traumatic event.
Speaker 13 (24:06):
It polarized people's views of Lindy and Michael Chamberlain that
what are they trying to achieve here? Is this a
tribute to Azaria or is this a spectacle that they
are trying to seek media attention.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
There would have been better just to pack up and
go home and just be glad it was all over.
I think, Michael, how have.
Speaker 13 (24:27):
You not lost faith? In human nature. As a result,
that's way people to be.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I love.
Speaker 13 (24:34):
It added to the mystique, and it added to the
question mark, And I guess the aura around them. What
are these people? What are Lindy and Michael all about here?
What are they trying to achieve?
Speaker 7 (24:45):
We need to take a quick break and we'll return
to a perfect storm in just a moment. I work
with Stephen they, head of our National Video Library, to
find any stories that seven News may have filed on
the reaction to barri findings, especially when he said a
choice has to be made between dingoes on one hand
(25:07):
and tourism on the other. His journalist Linda Scott interviewing
Eric Poole, the head of the Northern Territory Tourism Commission,
on the same.
Speaker 16 (25:18):
Day the coroner who said that the death of a
baby is too high price to pay for conservation? Do
you not agree with that?
Speaker 17 (25:27):
I think you must put that into his perspective.
Speaker 16 (25:31):
Well, are you putting tourism, for example, before the life
of a child?
Speaker 11 (25:34):
No, I'm not, Well, why have you made the statement
you have?
Speaker 17 (25:38):
Well, I think I think it's very dangerous to generalize
about one incident. If somebody gets taken by a crocodile
in North Australia. Do we go out and shoot all
the crocodiles?
Speaker 7 (25:56):
I think, Do you.
Speaker 13 (25:57):
Indeed believe that the AARs Rock area is an extraordinarily
dangerous one?
Speaker 11 (26:00):
No, I don't.
Speaker 7 (26:02):
I also spoke to Philip Castle, who covered the Chamberlain
case for the Canberra Times and who later worked for
the Australian Federal Police.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory Police, not
Commissioner On Macaulay, who were determined after a while to
get her and felt it with a slight on the
Northern Territory that a dingo could be blamed. There was
also another agenda running, which was that the Northern Territory
were trying to promote tourism and this would have been
(26:32):
was a very significant negative about people traveling to Outback
Australia and the Northern Territory, and I think there was
a financial factor involved as well.
Speaker 7 (26:44):
Now, before we go into what happened next, and there's
a lot, I need to tell you about two pieces
of information that I've discovered since we created the last episode,
and I think it makes sense to share these updates.
Speaker 11 (26:56):
Now.
Speaker 7 (26:57):
You'll probably remember that Derek Roff, chief ranger of the
Airs Rock and Mount Olga National Park, had written a
report about dingo attacks that he is sent to his superiors.
He wanted bullets to shoot dingoes because they presented a
clear danger to children. I discovered that Roth's report was
(27:17):
sent to and rejected by the newly created Conservation Commission
of the Northern Territory in July nineteen eighty. The Commission
comprised six people, including Ian Barker, QC and Paul Everingham,
the Northern Territory Chief Minister, and in an unrelated matter,
(27:40):
on researching the timeline for the full funding of a
four star resort near Oolaru Airs Rock to see if
it took place at around the same time as Ozaria
Chamberlain was killed.
Speaker 14 (27:56):
There's always been many theories that it was vindictive placework.
But when the coroner found that the body had Desari
been taken but disposed of by a person or person's
unknown the body that then raised the question, well, who
did take the baby?
Speaker 7 (28:11):
Kim Tilbrook was also at the Alice Springs Court to
hear the findings and report on the next chapter of
the Chamberlain story, so.
Speaker 14 (28:19):
It wasn't long After this the inquest finished at the
Northern Territory Police, so it showed a new interest in
it and a new investigation started.
Speaker 7 (28:30):
From what I can verify, the Northern Territory Police began
a new inquiry into Azaria Chamberlain's death called Operation Ocre.
It was named for the color of the soil around
oolarou as Rock and it used a cartoon drawing of
a dingo as its logo.
Speaker 19 (28:50):
Now, according to the rum among us, a special police
go one as being formed to continue the search for
Azaria's body. This story has been linked to a meeting
in Adelaide today of the South Australian Branch of the
Forensic Science.
Speaker 7 (29:00):
Separately, doctor Kenneth Brown revisited his forensic tests.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Kenneth Brown, doctor Kenneth Brown, was a franchic odontologist, was
humiliated by Barrett Is finding. Brown gave an opinion on that,
but Barrett said, well, he's admitted that he does not
have experience of bite Marx through clothing, so it would
be dangerous to accept his evidence in that regard. Well
that Stone Brown he was internationally known. He did a
(29:29):
lot of work in Japan in forensic odontology and it
was a public emulation. Brown then contacted Professor James Cameron,
who had been his mentor in London, and Cameron wrote
back he said he didn't think Brown had done anything wrong,
and then Brown in contacted the Northern Territory Police and
(29:50):
asked whether he could take the jump set and the
Northern Territory Police were only too willing to assist in
further investigation.
Speaker 19 (29:59):
Police there'll be no further investigation, that the inquest won't
be reopened, and the forensic men say this is just
a regular meeting.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
I think there are many amazing coincidences that are in
this case.
Speaker 7 (30:13):
Far from the forensic tests in London and Adelaide. Stuart
Tipple was working as a solicitor on the New South
Wales Central Coast. In a remarkable twist, Tipple had grown
up in New Zealand and become good friends with the
children of a neighboring family, the Chamberlains. He knew Peter
and Michael Chamberlain through until his teen years, but eventually
(30:37):
lost track of them when he moved to Australia to
practice law.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
It was just after I'd been to the wine court
and I was walking back to my car and I
saw Michael in motorbike leathers with his motorbike. I introduced myself.
We exchanged a few pleasantries, but didn't take long before
we got around to talking about the situation of his
(31:03):
daughter in the first inquest, which had been satisfactory concluded,
and his parting shot then was give me your details
if I ever need a lawyer. What we didn't know
at that stage was that the case had in fact
been reopened and Operation Okre was in full swing. And
(31:26):
within two weeks of that meeting, the Chamberlain house was
raided and Michael and Lindy made contact with me, and
that's how I became involved in the case.
Speaker 7 (31:39):
The Operation Okah detectives had received new forensic reports from
James Cameron in London and Kenneth Brown in Adelaide, which
appeared to confirm that Azaria had been murdered by a
person and not taken by a dingo. The obvious conclusion
was that Lindy Chamberlain had killed the baby when she
(32:00):
said she was putting the baby in the tent to sleep.
But they had a problem with their timeline of events,
and the problem was Sally Shaw.
Speaker 11 (32:11):
So I was eight and a half months pregnant. I
had a little totaler running around and a policeman came
to the door and said, you need to come to
the police station with us. Now.
Speaker 7 (32:20):
It had been thirteen months since the fateful night when
she heard Azaria's final cry, and it was that cry
that the police wanted to talk about. If Lindy Chamberlain
had killed her baby, as they now believed, Sally Shaw
would not have heard azaria cry, she would have already
been dead. As lawyers would say, Sally's evidence was a
(32:44):
barrier to conviction. Her story didn't fit in with theirs.
Speaker 11 (32:52):
Really upset about the fact that they weren't interested in
my evidence. It was like, you know, well, you know,
I don't worry about the dinger stuff. What really happened,
you know. It was that kind of attitude. And they
just kept going around and round and round, as though
they were trying to twist what I was saying. It
was just like in my head, I'm going they didn't
(33:14):
want to hear what I'm They don't want to say,
They've got their own ideas, they don't want to know
the truth.
Speaker 7 (33:23):
I'm sure you're like me. And this sounds like a
scene from a fictional TV show, but no, it really
happened in a police station to a heavily pregnant women.
Normally we'd put a promotion of soundbites from the next
episode in here, but I just thought it's better to
tell you in next week's show. I have access to
the Operation OCA police tapes, the tapes that were secretly
(33:46):
made throughout the investigation. If you subscribe now, you'll get
an alert the moment the next show drops. I'd like
to say thanks to Nicky, Simon and Steven who helped
create this episode, and a shout out to Uncan Craig
and the team at Trent and thanks to you for listening.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised that the
following program may contain the names of people who have died.
A perfect storm. The true story of the Chamberlains.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I think Azariah would have lasted a matter of minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory police who
were determined to get her.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
People were saying to me, Oh, you're going there to
see that woman who killed a child.
Speaker 5 (00:28):
Bad things happen to good people.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
He asked the foreman, have you reached a verdict?
Speaker 6 (00:33):
He said, yes, you're honor guilty.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Episode four, Person or Persons unknown.
Speaker 7 (00:46):
Hello, My name is John Buck. I work in the
development group here at seven Studios, where we create new
TV shows and podcasts for broadcasting and streaming around the world.
I started making a documentary late last year about a
miscarriage of justice, one of the worst in this country's
history and one of the most famous. An innocent mother,
(01:10):
Lindy Chamberlain went to jail. But why did she go
to jail? And maybe more importantly, can this all happen again?
Can another family drive into a perfect storm of poor
police work, dangerous animals, faulty forensics, witness bullying, powerful lobby
(01:31):
groups and a suspicious public. According to government records, the
deaths of children account for less than one percent of
Australia's total. It's rare, yet these deaths are common on television,
news and newspapers. I asked former judge Kenneth Raphael, who
has decades of experience in the law, what drove an
(01:54):
even greater interest in the Chamberlain case.
Speaker 8 (01:58):
I don't think it was just because it was a
that was killed here. I think it was a Dingo's story.
That's what got everybody into it. Most people live on
the coast, I've seen it Dingo in their lives, certainly
got no idea about the propensity of Dingo's to take
prey and they couldn't believe it. They couldn't believe it
forse just impossible.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
The Northern Territory Police were also convinced it was impossible.
Their forensic tests on Azaria's jumpsuit and nappy suggested human
involvement in the baby's death. Detective Chargeant Graham Childwood interviewed
the Chamberlain separately at the Mount iSER Police station. He
asked Lindy one hundred and sixty five questions, including asking
(02:45):
her to confirm the baby she's holding in that famous
photo on Airsroch was actually Azariah. Childwood had not offered
missus Chamberlain a caution, a typical move by the police
if they suspect a person of rowing. When Michael Chamberlain
sat down to be questioned, Childwood immediately cautioned him. I
(03:07):
asked Duncan mcmah, a former detective and private investigator of
twenty years, what the strategy may.
Speaker 9 (03:14):
Have been the premise of that, And you can only
guess what was going through their mind. The premise of that,
for me would have been based on what she had
said and the other evidence they had garnered. They believed
that Michael was in fact responsible.
Speaker 7 (03:27):
You would imagined that would caution her.
Speaker 9 (03:30):
There is a composer, sometimes devious, heaven forbid, and one
way to do that might have been that they bring
him in, cautioned him, interviewing, charge him with a conspiracy
or as has been complicit the crime. On the basis
that his wife would say he didn't do it, I
did it. My nasty mind suggests that they're thinking, well,
(03:54):
if we squeeze him, she might just tell the truth.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
Michael Chamberlain's matched that of his wife, but there were
enough variations in their combined testimony to bother the.
Speaker 9 (04:05):
Police stories with slight variations. Absolutely, everyone sees things differently,
but it's when the variations get too wild or they're
no variations, you think. And I think one of the
issues with the Chamberlains was the variations may have been
slightly on the edges of credible.
Speaker 7 (04:24):
Detective Graham Childwood flew to airs Rock with Coroner Dennis
Barrett to survey the scene of Azariah Chamberlain's death. Within
a week, Barrett set a hearing date.
Speaker 10 (04:36):
Lennon died before police could get him to a hospital
one mile away.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
His attacker made no attempt to flee.
Speaker 7 (04:43):
For many of the people I've spoken to, the first
inquest feels just like yesterday, but it was almost forty
years ago.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Starr flew from Europe to console Lennon's wife and.
Speaker 7 (04:53):
Their five year old sign as the coroner began hearing
witness testimony. In December nineteen eighty, the world was still
mourning the death of former beatle John Lennon.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I think whenever a big court story came up, the
boss selected me to go and cover the court case
because of my background.
Speaker 7 (05:16):
A young Linda Scott had already covered courtrooms as far
apart as London and Brisbane, but she was now in
the outback Austray in town of Alice Springs, reporting on
Coroner Barrett's inquiry.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
He may have been the next policeman, but he didn't
appear to that. He had the aura of one of
the old time magistrates that we was used to in
court in those days. Firm but very very fair.
Speaker 11 (05:42):
He sort of made you feel comfortable with being there.
Speaker 7 (05:46):
Sally Shaw and her husband Greg were with the chamberlains
on the night of Asari's disappearance. She'd heard the baby's
last cry, and Sally came to be the most important witness.
Speaker 11 (05:59):
Well, I suppose way in anything like that, you feel
like you're on trial. People are looking at you, all
the media outside all that. It was like you were
in a bit of a preciate cooker. So I found
it quite daunting.
Speaker 12 (06:13):
I'm not actually for a comment or anything like that.
Speaker 13 (06:14):
But I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
When you can print it.
Speaker 11 (06:20):
Was there to try and find out what happened, just
tell me the facts so that he could make a decision.
So I felt he was very fair in that sense. Yeah,
he didn't. He didn't have an agenda. He was just
there purely to find out the facts and make some
kind of decision.
Speaker 7 (06:39):
Derek Roff, the head park ranger who led the search
for Azaria, was also called as a witness.
Speaker 10 (06:46):
When I was a police when we are awareing keenre
and what have you, and I gave the evidence and
I saw that I knew and what have you, and
the Obriagonal people would convinced that Dingo was the party,
and I certainly was. They held the view very strongly
that it was the Dingle that was responsible for Asari
as me and taken. There was no way. I don't
(07:08):
know one Amoragon who held a different view the Dinga
was accused. In my opinion, the Dinga was guilty.
Speaker 14 (07:17):
It just dominated news headlines every day. I mean, I
was working on the biggest story in Australia at the time.
Speaker 7 (07:23):
Kim Tillbrook had started as a cadet at the Adelaide
Advertiser in nineteen sixty nine and he was now a
senior reporter for the newspaper.
Speaker 14 (07:32):
I ended up covering the first in quest. There was
a lot of evidence that sort of sea sawt You
thought one day early on in the first in quest,
I thought it must have been the dingo. Then it
couldn't have been the dingo, But after a couple of
days I came to the opinion that it was the dingo.
Speaker 15 (07:49):
The chamberlains were given a bodyguard during the first part
of the inquest in December after death.
Speaker 14 (07:53):
But a lot of people found that Lindy seemed very cold.
She just sit there in call and she never never
appeared to cry or be upset, and I think a
lot of people took that the wrong way. And whereas
Michael would get upset and court he would cry, he'd
cry quite easily in court.
Speaker 16 (08:11):
An anonymous caller told police there was a bomb on
the first floor of the hotel for Alice Hotel, which.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Happens to be there.
Speaker 14 (08:18):
But I remember going to their motel room one night
after a bomb scare they'd been shifted to another hotel
and found them there and Michael was quite bubbly, but
Lindy was very upset and crying, you know, because the
day's evidence had taken a toll on her.
Speaker 7 (08:35):
I wondered what Malcolm Brown and Linda Scott made of
the media pack. So there's a large group of TV, newspaper,
magazine and radio reporters.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I was never a part of the media pack, and
that didd be a lot of disservice as well. Beyond
previous stories I've been a part of the pack, it
was never one of them.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
It was hard to get a job as a general
reporter if you're a woman, especially on newspapers, you were
shoved into the women's news social section. So there weren't
many general women reporters around then. So yeah, the guys
were very blokey, the male reporters. They mostly came from
Sydney and they drank together. I wasn't a drinker, so
(09:16):
I didn't join it, and I wasn't particularly interested.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I just preferred to I stayed at a different motel.
I never wanted to be part of that media pact
because the trouble is they start to swap ideas. They
talked to each other about if they compare what each
are saying, and they're very anxious that they look after
each other, but they collude in what they're going to
say and they form an agreement. And I just didn't
want to be part of it.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
After a hard day in court listening to seven hours
of evidence and then trying to put together a story.
The last thing I wanted to do was to chat
to them. I'd rather go to bed early and prepare
for the next day. So I certainly didn't fit in
with the boys club that was there, but yeah, it
was a boys club.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
There was a tendency among the media, to among the
mainstream media, to believe the police line and to take
the Bener murders.
Speaker 16 (10:06):
The Chamberlains were showing some sign of strain today, But
before court, mister Chamberlain told me that he was gaining
some strength from the Bible, particularly from Psalm eighty, which reads,
in part, aroused thy strength and come to our rescue.
Oh God, caused thy face to show.
Speaker 7 (10:22):
Despite the fact that more than seventy five percent of
Australians said they were Christians in the nineteen eighty one census,
Azaria's parents were neither Catholic nor Anglican, which made up
the vast majority of churchgoers. Stuart Tipple became the Chamberlain's
longest serving lawyer.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
Not only were they from a small religious body, but
he you've got a minister of that which put them
in a different category again.
Speaker 7 (10:52):
So I'm already hearing. One reason that this can all
happen again religion, or to be honest, not my religion.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
And even today a lot of those rumors people believe.
I still meet people who think Azari immense sacrifice in
the wilderness. So religion was a big factor. And the
fact that they came from a church that is, you know,
a small group compared to the mainstream, meant, oh, well,
(11:25):
you know, they must be odd. There's something different about them.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And religion was a big deal in a lot of
people's lives. So the fact she was this unusual religion,
I think that stirred up a lot of suspicions and
then just carried in through the inquest and then it.
Speaker 14 (11:41):
Grew and grew.
Speaker 7 (11:43):
Not only did Linda Scott work as one of the
few female journalists on the Chamberlain story, she helped create
Australian television history.
Speaker 16 (11:51):
There's a possibility that we could be televising the Coroners
Finding on Friday. As he brings it down, mister Barrett.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Is Now we were the ones who come up with
idea of broadcasting live mister Barrett's findings.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah that's pretty good, Tata.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Yeah, yep, it only came about because we had a
technician who was a genius. Gary Tait said to me, hey,
would you like to broadcast his findings? Of course we would,
but is this technically possibly? He said, yeah, I'll just
plug a few things here and there and join this
up and do that. I'm sure we can do it.
I approached mister Barrett and said, we're very keen to
(12:31):
present your finding exactly as you say it, and you've
told us all the way along that you want fair reporting.
I now find that it's technically possible for us to
broadcast your finding live.
Speaker 16 (12:43):
In a history making move. Our cameras will be allowed
in court to televise the proceedings live.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Barrett he was so upset by the degree of hostility
towards the Chamberlain and the hysteria and the speculation that
he agreed to go on next television and to public
the televis his finding so as to put the rest
forever the speculation that something else happened other than a
(13:11):
dingo attack. Good bonding.
Speaker 13 (13:13):
I'm Frank Warwick.
Speaker 15 (13:14):
We are standing by now to cross live to the
Alice Springs Courthouse for the findings of the Inquest into
the disappearance of baby Azaria Chamberlain. Last August, I have
the picture from Alice Springs coming through my monitor.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
Six months after Azaria's death, the coroner brought the inquest
to an end.
Speaker 12 (13:30):
In quest touching the death of Assaria Chamberlain resumed.
Speaker 7 (13:34):
The fifty four year old Barrett himself a former detective
of seventeen years, was of medium height, boarding and with thick,
dark rimmed glasses. He wore the typical clothes for summer
in Alice Springs, a short sleeved white shirt and khaki pants.
Speaker 13 (13:52):
He allowed outside eyes and ears into his cord so
it could be seen and heard at the instant that
he's saying it. And that adds a whole new dimension
to crime stories and reporting and makes it far more
attractive to the listener and the viewer. And that's what
(14:13):
we found. That's what turned it into such a mega
case and one that will live forever in Australian crime history.
Speaker 12 (14:22):
This in quest has demonstrated very clearly the resourcefulness, initiative
and determination of members and officers of the Northern Territory
Police Force in the field to intelligently organize every resource
conceivable to achieve success in such a complexed investigation.
Speaker 7 (14:46):
While Barrett had praise for the Northern Territory Police, he
was schething in his criticism of the forensic team.
Speaker 12 (14:53):
I agree with mister McNay that supervision within the section
must be negligent.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
In the extreme, Barrett thought the investigation was slipshot. He
was particularly critical of a woman in the police forensic section.
Speaker 12 (15:10):
That she had been taught none of the principles of
scientific objectivity. Is even more alarming, although understandable, when her
superior appears to be also ignorant of such a basic quality.
Police forces must realize or be made to realize, that
(15:31):
courts will not tolerate any standard less than complete objectivity
from anyone claiming to be making scientific observations.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Barrett was very critical National Parks of WILDLFE Service for
not culling the wildlife and keeping them away from the campers.
Speaker 12 (15:51):
A conduct of dingoes around campsites, together with their potensity
to enter tense, was known or ought to have been known.
Yet in the face of this knowledge, dingoes have been
retained and indeed allowed to virtually infest the area.
Speaker 13 (16:08):
You saw the full warts and all of what the
coroner was saying now to most people sitting through that
is quite a difficult experience, a because it's not particularly entertaining,
and b it can be quite gruesome in its detaype.
Speaker 12 (16:22):
The sprays of blood on the exterior of the tent,
where sprays of arterial blood coming from Azaria's head or neck.
Speaker 7 (16:31):
Coroner Barrett then spoke about the clothing of Azaria that
had been found, and it surprised.
Speaker 12 (16:37):
Many it would appear the clothing was meant to be found.
This wo may have been to support the proposition that
the child had been fully eaten that it had.
Speaker 8 (16:52):
Been This may have been to support the proposition that
the car had been fully eaten and that had been
taken by a dingo. It's an odd way of putting things,
but I think he was probably pretty anxious on behalf
of the parents that they might be closed. That's my
(17:12):
reading of what occurred.
Speaker 7 (17:14):
Barrett then arrived at his key findings. He agreed with
witnesses like Derreck roth Nipperwin Marty, and Sally Shaw.
Speaker 12 (17:23):
I do find that Azaria Chantel lore N Chamberlain, a
child then of nine weeks of age, met her death
when attacked by a wild dingo whilst asleep in a
family's tent at the top camping area Airs Rock, shortly
after eight pm on the seventeenth of August nineteen eighty.
(17:45):
I further find that in attempting to remove this babe
from the tent, the dingo would have caused severe crush
into the base of the skull and neck and lacerations
to the threaten neck. Such injuries would have resulted in
swift death. I further find that neither the parents of
the child nor either of their remaining children were in
(18:09):
any degree whatsoever responsible for this death.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Barrett was very clear in his finding that neither the
Chamblains nor any of their children were involved in the
disappearance of his area.
Speaker 11 (18:25):
It had already been a lot of nastiness, so we
were hoping that this is it. They've got the facts,
that's it, It'll all be over and what have you.
Speaker 7 (18:37):
But what Barrett said next made sure it wasn't all over.
Speaker 12 (18:42):
This case clearly emphasizes that the choice has to be
made between dingoes on one hand and terrorism on the other.
Speaker 7 (18:53):
Although Barrett was clearly challenging powerful groups like the tourism
industry and police force, they'd probably expected this from a coroner,
and if Dennis Barrett had finished there, it's unlikely that
there would be part two and part three of the
Chamberlain's story. The parents would have returned home to grieve
(19:14):
in private, surrounded by their friends and family, and it's
probably what the late coroner wanted, But of course that's
not what happened. The coroner had one more paragraph.
Speaker 12 (19:27):
To read, The body of Azaria was taken from the
possession of a dingo and disposed of by an unknown
method by a person or person's name unknown.
Speaker 13 (19:39):
You enter a date to be iced.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
He had no option but to say that it was
a possibility that where the clothing was found, it had
been placed there by other people or as he described them,
and persons that were unknown.
Speaker 7 (19:58):
I asked former Federal Circuit Court Judge Kenneth Raphael his
opinion on the coroner's final paragraph.
Speaker 8 (20:05):
The Northern Territory Police could have gone off and made
a really big search and asked a lot of people
around the place to see whether they could discover who
might have found the body and disposed of the body
and dealt with the clothes. It's independent of the cause
of the death of the child. The Northern Territory Police
(20:28):
could have said, Okay, we accept that the adingo took
the baby and killed it, but there is an outstanding problem.
We don't want people running around disposing of bodies or
and gone and investigated that. But that's not what they did.
They didn't do that. They went around and took the
criticism of their forensic evidence and then tried to look
(20:51):
at the forensics again. For what purpose one doesn't know,
but one suspects it was because they were still convinced
of the guilt of the chamberlains.
Speaker 7 (21:01):
I wondered what Malcolm Brown thought of Coroner Barrett's decision
to broadcast his findings.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Because he thought by doing that he would put them
in at a rest. Instead of that he in his
creditors of the Authern Territory Police Rangers and the forensic
he simply stirred them up to to go to further
lengths to solve what they thought was a continuing mystery.
So backfired.
Speaker 7 (21:25):
Really, The police and forensic experts left the court determined
to recheck their evidence. But the Chamberlain's left the court
and spoke to the media.
Speaker 8 (21:38):
Well, then it's over, Michael, has it finished for you?
Speaker 6 (21:41):
Now it's the start of another new life for us.
It's been six months of disappointment and tragedy and humiliation.
But are still standing any business?
Speaker 17 (21:58):
No bitterness.
Speaker 18 (22:00):
But haven't you been made to feel as though at
sometimes you've been on trial?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
That would be so you beno grudge, Lindy.
Speaker 12 (22:09):
Will you be able to settle down and lead a normal.
Speaker 13 (22:11):
Life after this?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
How do you feel with the chairman?
Speaker 11 (22:16):
I think we don't feel the same.
Speaker 18 (22:19):
Well, what do you feel of the people who have
spread rumors and there has been the innuendo that the
coroner spoke of today they.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Have not understood the true facts of the case and
they would just have to make their peace with their
God just got back as a picture as she really was,
a proved of the world that she was, as we said,
her most beautiful past.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
The thing that sends out to me mostly though, was
the press conference when they came out after that and
they unfool this huge photo of Azaria. Now that struck
me as very very strange. Why was this big photo
being unfurled? These brief parents were there, But then they
(23:04):
should have just quietly Maybe I thought they should have
just thanked the coroner for his finding and just gone
off quietly. But they didn't.
Speaker 13 (23:12):
I thought it was a very odd way of marking
the moment in time that traditionally most parents, you would think,
would still be in the grieving process and probably would
want to avoid the media or have a third person,
their lawyer or another family spokesperson speak to the media
rather than them stand there and unfurl a larger than
(23:36):
life poster of Azaria.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
In those days, too, a big poster size photograph was
something very very rare. You didn't see them. It seemed
not suspicious, but it was just unusual, and it gave
the media more fodder.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
They are on people all the way through, and they
were the things they did, the decisions they made, but
none of that spoke of guilty. Just I've always said
that there's no law saying how people react to a
traumatic event.
Speaker 13 (24:06):
It polarized people's views of Lindy and Michael Chamberlain that
what are they trying to achieve here? Is this a
tribute to Azaria or is this a spectacle that they
are trying to seek media attention.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
There would have been better just to pack up and
go home and just be glad it was all over.
I think, Michael, how have.
Speaker 13 (24:27):
You not lost faith? In human nature. As a result,
that's way people to be.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I love.
Speaker 13 (24:34):
It added to the mystique, and it added to the
question mark, And I guess the aura around them. What
are these people? What are Lindy and Michael all about here?
What are they trying to achieve?
Speaker 7 (24:45):
We need to take a quick break and we'll return
to a perfect storm in just a moment. I work
with Stephen they, head of our National Video Library, to
find any stories that seven News may have filed on
the reaction to barri findings, especially when he said a
choice has to be made between dingoes on one hand
(25:07):
and tourism on the other. His journalist Linda Scott interviewing
Eric Poole, the head of the Northern Territory Tourism Commission,
on the same.
Speaker 16 (25:18):
Day the coroner who said that the death of a
baby is too high price to pay for conservation? Do
you not agree with that?
Speaker 17 (25:27):
I think you must put that into his perspective.
Speaker 16 (25:31):
Well, are you putting tourism, for example, before the life
of a child?
Speaker 11 (25:34):
No, I'm not, Well, why have you made the statement
you have?
Speaker 17 (25:38):
Well, I think I think it's very dangerous to generalize
about one incident. If somebody gets taken by a crocodile
in North Australia. Do we go out and shoot all
the crocodiles?
Speaker 7 (25:56):
I think, Do you.
Speaker 13 (25:57):
Indeed believe that the AARs Rock area is an extraordinarily
dangerous one?
Speaker 11 (26:00):
No, I don't.
Speaker 7 (26:02):
I also spoke to Philip Castle, who covered the Chamberlain
case for the Canberra Times and who later worked for
the Australian Federal Police.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory Police, not
Commissioner On Macaulay, who were determined after a while to
get her and felt it with a slight on the
Northern Territory that a dingo could be blamed. There was
also another agenda running, which was that the Northern Territory
were trying to promote tourism and this would have been
(26:32):
was a very significant negative about people traveling to Outback
Australia and the Northern Territory, and I think there was
a financial factor involved as well.
Speaker 7 (26:44):
Now, before we go into what happened next, and there's
a lot, I need to tell you about two pieces
of information that I've discovered since we created the last episode,
and I think it makes sense to share these updates.
Speaker 11 (26:56):
Now.
Speaker 7 (26:57):
You'll probably remember that Derek Roff, chief ranger of the
Airs Rock and Mount Olga National Park, had written a
report about dingo attacks that he is sent to his superiors.
He wanted bullets to shoot dingoes because they presented a
clear danger to children. I discovered that Roth's report was
(27:17):
sent to and rejected by the newly created Conservation Commission
of the Northern Territory in July nineteen eighty. The Commission
comprised six people, including Ian Barker, QC and Paul Everingham,
the Northern Territory Chief Minister, and in an unrelated matter,
(27:40):
on researching the timeline for the full funding of a
four star resort near Oolaru Airs Rock to see if
it took place at around the same time as Ozaria
Chamberlain was killed.
Speaker 14 (27:56):
There's always been many theories that it was vindictive placework.
But when the coroner found that the body had Desari
been taken but disposed of by a person or person's
unknown the body that then raised the question, well, who
did take the baby?
Speaker 7 (28:11):
Kim Tilbrook was also at the Alice Springs Court to
hear the findings and report on the next chapter of
the Chamberlain story, so.
Speaker 14 (28:19):
It wasn't long After this the inquest finished at the
Northern Territory Police, so it showed a new interest in
it and a new investigation started.
Speaker 7 (28:30):
From what I can verify, the Northern Territory Police began
a new inquiry into Azaria Chamberlain's death called Operation Ocre.
It was named for the color of the soil around
oolarou as Rock and it used a cartoon drawing of
a dingo as its logo.
Speaker 19 (28:50):
Now, according to the rum among us, a special police
go one as being formed to continue the search for
Azaria's body. This story has been linked to a meeting
in Adelaide today of the South Australian Branch of the
Forensic Science.
Speaker 7 (29:00):
Separately, doctor Kenneth Brown revisited his forensic tests.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Kenneth Brown, doctor Kenneth Brown, was a franchic odontologist, was
humiliated by Barrett Is finding. Brown gave an opinion on that,
but Barrett said, well, he's admitted that he does not
have experience of bite Marx through clothing, so it would
be dangerous to accept his evidence in that regard. Well
that Stone Brown he was internationally known. He did a
(29:29):
lot of work in Japan in forensic odontology and it
was a public emulation. Brown then contacted Professor James Cameron,
who had been his mentor in London, and Cameron wrote
back he said he didn't think Brown had done anything wrong,
and then Brown in contacted the Northern Territory Police and
(29:50):
asked whether he could take the jump set and the
Northern Territory Police were only too willing to assist in
further investigation.
Speaker 19 (29:59):
Police there'll be no further investigation, that the inquest won't
be reopened, and the forensic men say this is just
a regular meeting.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
I think there are many amazing coincidences that are in
this case.
Speaker 7 (30:13):
Far from the forensic tests in London and Adelaide. Stuart
Tipple was working as a solicitor on the New South
Wales Central Coast. In a remarkable twist, Tipple had grown
up in New Zealand and become good friends with the
children of a neighboring family, the Chamberlains. He knew Peter
and Michael Chamberlain through until his teen years, but eventually
(30:37):
lost track of them when he moved to Australia to
practice law.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
It was just after I'd been to the wine court
and I was walking back to my car and I
saw Michael in motorbike leathers with his motorbike. I introduced myself.
We exchanged a few pleasantries, but didn't take long before
we got around to talking about the situation of his
(31:03):
daughter in the first inquest, which had been satisfactory concluded,
and his parting shot then was give me your details
if I ever need a lawyer. What we didn't know
at that stage was that the case had in fact
been reopened and Operation Okre was in full swing. And
(31:26):
within two weeks of that meeting, the Chamberlain house was
raided and Michael and Lindy made contact with me, and
that's how I became involved in the case.
Speaker 7 (31:39):
The Operation Okah detectives had received new forensic reports from
James Cameron in London and Kenneth Brown in Adelaide, which
appeared to confirm that Azaria had been murdered by a
person and not taken by a dingo. The obvious conclusion
was that Lindy Chamberlain had killed the baby when she
(32:00):
said she was putting the baby in the tent to sleep.
But they had a problem with their timeline of events,
and the problem was Sally Shaw.
Speaker 11 (32:11):
So I was eight and a half months pregnant. I
had a little totaler running around and a policeman came
to the door and said, you need to come to
the police station with us. Now.
Speaker 7 (32:20):
It had been thirteen months since the fateful night when
she heard Azaria's final cry, and it was that cry
that the police wanted to talk about. If Lindy Chamberlain
had killed her baby, as they now believed, Sally Shaw
would not have heard azaria cry, she would have already
been dead. As lawyers would say, Sally's evidence was a
(32:44):
barrier to conviction. Her story didn't fit in with theirs.
Speaker 11 (32:52):
Really upset about the fact that they weren't interested in
my evidence. It was like, you know, well, you know,
I don't worry about the dinger stuff. What really happened,
you know. It was that kind of attitude. And they
just kept going around and round and round, as though
they were trying to twist what I was saying. It
was just like in my head, I'm going they didn't
(33:14):
want to hear what I'm They don't want to say,
They've got their own ideas, they don't want to know
the truth.
Speaker 7 (33:23):
I'm sure you're like me. And this sounds like a
scene from a fictional TV show, but no, it really
happened in a police station to a heavily pregnant women.
Normally we'd put a promotion of soundbites from the next
episode in here, but I just thought it's better to
tell you in next week's show. I have access to
the Operation OCA police tapes, the tapes that were secretly
(33:46):
made throughout the investigation. If you subscribe now, you'll get
an alert the moment the next show drops. I'd like
to say thanks to Nicky, Simon and Steven who helped
create this episode, and a shout out to Uncan Craig
and the team at Trent and thanks to you for listening.
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