Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode is not suitable for children to listen to
or overhear. It may contain course language, adult themes, and
graphic descriptions. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised
that the following program may contain the names of people
who have died a perfect storm. The true story of
(00:20):
the Chamberlain's.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I think Azaria would have lasted a matter of minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory Police who
were determined to get her.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
People were saying to me, Oh, you're going there to
see that woman who killed a child.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
Bad things happen to good people.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Episode ten, The Matinee Jacket.
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Hello, I'm John Buck. Over the past year, I've set
myself the goal of looking at as many of the
elements of the Chamberlain case as is possible. Stephen and
I have searched through the Seven Studios archive find out
what was broadcast, had been found of the child.
Speaker 6 (01:06):
And what wasn't. I didn't get the I didn't get
the bullets from what have you?
Speaker 7 (01:10):
In a four night later as a disappeared.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
I've also been able to access materials stored elsewhere, such
as the Northern Territory Police, Fire and Emergency Services Information Archive.
Speaker 8 (01:23):
What we have is neither the child were killed across
the area of.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
The and I've recorded my own interviews with those involved
or with valuable insights.
Speaker 9 (01:33):
I suppose if you're a key policemen.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
I also thought it was best to only use material
of Lindy and Michael Chamberlain from the time.
Speaker 10 (01:42):
My wife is an innocent woman, and it'll be virtually
over my dead body that she'll stay in jail.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
So you could hear the same interviews that the public
heard in the early nineteen eighties. But there was one
person that our searchers found very little of, one person
who the case revolved around. But I doubt that an
interview could happen or would happen, for any number of reasons.
Speaker 11 (02:11):
Well, you have up here from Adelaide, the forensic botanists,
and there collecting various samples of plant matter from around.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
The Detective Sergeant Graham Childwood interviewed Lindy and Michael Chamberlain.
His team collected evidence from oolaru as Rock searched the
Chamberlain's house and their car. He supervised blood tests, watched
media appearances of the couple, and recorded conversations.
Speaker 8 (02:37):
With everyone about three hours work this morning. Everything.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Graham Childwood had been tasked with finding all of the
pieces from a complex missing child case. In less than
ten years, he had gone from a junior constable to
the lead detective on Australia's most famous police investigation.
Speaker 11 (03:01):
I'd always had aspirations to become a police officer. I
tried to join the New South Wales Police excuse that
as an adult, but they had then I think still
did a very strict physical requirements. I hyped weight. I
was a skinny of the lad and couldn't make their
weight requirements, so I couldn't get in. I went off
(03:25):
and did some other things in New South Wales and
then in about nineteen seventy three saw an aid for
the NT Police wanting police officers, so I put an
application in, got an interview and was successful.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Graham Charlwood quickly rose through the ranks and was posted
to Airs Rock as a detective sergeant in the criminal
investigation branch in nineteen seventy eight. Two years later, Azaria
Chamberlain disappeared from her parents' tent. Inspector Michael Gilroy was
the first to arrive at Asroch Ularu on August eighteenth,
(04:03):
nineteen eighty, and he conducted the first interview with Lindy Chamberlain.
Speaker 8 (04:12):
Could you please tell me your full name?
Speaker 12 (04:14):
Underdress alex Lynn Chamberlain, three Able Smith Parade, Sunset Mount.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Either you actually see anything in the dingo's mouth?
Speaker 12 (04:27):
No, I didn't see anything in the dingo's mouth because
that was below the level of the light. It sort
of had its head down and coming out of the tent.
I thought it was just shaking its head to get
past the him that it has.
Speaker 13 (04:41):
Thought flashed through.
Speaker 12 (04:42):
My mind that it's no good going to caravans and
telling people when you please come and help. So I
just stood there and screamed out as anybody got a
torch because the.
Speaker 11 (04:50):
Dingoes baby, they came immediately.
Speaker 12 (04:56):
There was almost as if they'd been sitting with torture
in their laps.
Speaker 13 (05:00):
Was poor black.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I know that's a really tough thing to listen to.
It's a recording that was played in court and then
it was stored away for thirty nine years. But let's
not forget that's what this whole show is about. After
the initial search failed to find the nine and a
half week old baby, Graham Childwood was put in charge
(05:28):
through September nineteen eighty. He tracked down missing witnesses, sent
evidence to laboratories, and then flew to Mount Isa to
speak with Lindy and Michael Chamberlain. He interviewed Azaria's mother first,
without a lawyer present.
Speaker 11 (05:44):
I'd have to be honest and say that she was cooperative. Yeah,
there was no reluctance on her part to participate.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
Yeah, you said later that you thought she may be
hiding something.
Speaker 13 (06:00):
Did suspect her?
Speaker 11 (06:04):
I suppose. I'd formed of view at that stage that
there was more to the story than was being told.
Speaker 13 (06:10):
But what I didn't know, and you didn't offer her
a caution.
Speaker 11 (06:16):
So I did. I didn't have reasonable cause to believe
that she'd committed an offense. There was no need to
caution her.
Speaker 13 (06:23):
But your cautioned, Michael, I wonder why you did that.
Speaker 11 (06:27):
My recollection is that parts of the story that he'd
previously told didn't quite add up.
Speaker 7 (06:33):
Yep.
Speaker 11 (06:35):
So we'd reached a view that maybe he had some
involvement that he hadn't disclosed, right, but not it didn't
form of you. It was particularly what involvement some involvement
more more in the more in the the In the
a the aftermath after the event, it was based on
(06:57):
some of the forensic material or evidence that the results
we'd head back at that stage. My memory is it
related to his camera bag.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
On the night of Azaria's disappearance, Michael Chamberlain had driven
in the family car to a motel to join his
wife and sons. He was accompanied by ROBERTA. Downs, a
local nurse, who sat in the front passenger's seat. Her
police interviews describes seeing a camera bag which appeared to
be very full. She asked mister Chamberlain if he would
(07:30):
like her to hold the bag while he was driving,
but he said, quote that it was okay, and that
he always kept it there because he kept his cameras
in it and when he was driving along he could
take pictures of things as he saw them, unquote. Despite
the fact that there was evidence that mister Chamberlain did
(07:50):
keep his camera in that manner and that Miss Downs
noticed no blood on the camera bag, the investigating detectives
were not con vinced. Graham Childwood and John Scott questioned
Lindy and Michael Chamberlain over two days and then prepared
to return to Alice springs. You know, you finish up
(08:12):
that day and you walk out, what's your feeling?
Speaker 13 (08:15):
Then once about this couple.
Speaker 11 (08:20):
That we had a lot more work to do to
reach reach any sort of conclusion as to what had
really occurred. We didn't have enough evidence to suggest judging anyone.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
There was one piece of evidence still missing. Let's listen
to Lindy Chamberlain explain what Azaria was wearing on the
night of August seventeenth, nineteen eighty.
Speaker 12 (08:46):
He had a little throw away and appy I am seeing,
and a little stretched owling suit, a little pair of
nettle booties for a little knitted matt and I jacket.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
In Britain, Australia, New Zealand and most Commonwealth countries, a
short coat for a baby was often called a matinee jacket.
It's what we now call a button up sweater.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Lindy had told everybody that there was a matinee jacket,
but when the clothing was found, it wasn't there.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Stuart Tipple is the Chamberlain's longest serving lawyer.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
And of course it became important because when they said,
we've tested the clothing and we couldn't find hairs, and
we couldn't find solive, etc. We were able to say, well,
that's because the babies wearing a matinee jacket and that
was covering the other clothing. So of course the Crown
(09:49):
never accepted there was a matinee jacket and really implied
that Lindy was lying about that.
Speaker 11 (09:56):
We always knew the matinee jacket was missing, obviously from
the evidence of Missus Chamberlain that the child that had
a mad enae jacket on it and she put it
down and it wasn't found with the other clothing, which
seemed odd. Regardless of how the clothing got there, it
(10:17):
was odd that the matinee jacket wasn't there.
Speaker 13 (10:19):
You hadn't discounted it actually.
Speaker 11 (10:22):
Existing, No, I know, we never thought that at all.
I certainly didn't. We subsequently conducted extensive ground searches right
round the rock to try and find it. It wasn't.
We didn't say it never existed.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Detective Sergeant Charlwood gathered further evidence at Airs Rock, combined
it with results from the Adelaide Labs, a report from
Sergeant Sandry in Darwin and the Chamberlain's formal interviews from
Mount Isao, and he handed it all to Coroner Barrett,
who held an inquiry into Azaria Chamberlain's death. Its coronial
(11:00):
findings were televised in February nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 14 (11:04):
I find that after her death, the body of Azaria
was taken from the possession of a of the Dingo
and disposed of ann by an unknown method by a
person or person's.
Speaker 11 (11:20):
Name unknown, and he made a subsequent finding that there
was involvement by person or person's unknown, which I think
was quite an open finding.
Speaker 13 (11:32):
What did your group take from I guess from that.
Speaker 11 (11:36):
I don't have a vivid recollection. I know that we
had a meeting and where too now I was discussed
and subsequently Operation Acre was set up. Investigations were resumed.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
When a report came back from Professor James Cameron in
London that outlined a scenario where Lindy Chamberlain had decapitated
her child in the family car. The Northern Territory Police
Commissioner and Attorney General cleared the way for Graham Childwood
and a team of detectives to fan out across Australia.
Speaker 11 (12:15):
Quite simply. A plan of action was developed and part
of that was to go to Curranbong and pensively to
look at the Chamberlain's vehicle, the vehicle that they'd taken
out to ASRock.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
Childwood recorded the search of the Chamberlain's house on a
micro cassette recorder.
Speaker 11 (12:36):
Yes, so I didn't say the chamberlains were exhuberant about it,
but they were cooperative.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Was suddenly the biggest media event again. Even during the
serch helicopters had been hovering over them. The meat who've
been tipped off by Channel.
Speaker 15 (13:01):
Seven helicopter just landed Channel Every conversation Childwood had with me,
in fact, every conversation they had with anybody, was recorded,
and recordings were made of child by Childhood of his
conversation with me.
Speaker 11 (13:21):
I believe.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
He had also taken Lindy in a car and had
had a conversation with her, but claimed that the tape
recording of that conversation had failed, and so it basically
became in that instance the case of his word against
her word, which differed quite a bit where he claimed
(13:46):
he'd put the allegations that she'd merged a child directly
to her.
Speaker 13 (13:52):
You had a chat with missus Chamberlain. Yes, I ask
you what your recollection of that is where.
Speaker 11 (14:00):
And have the vivid recollection of the conversation and I
spoke to him. But beyond that now I don't recall.
Speaker 8 (14:06):
Let's hope that car is what we're after. Sorry, let's
hopeen it's the car, that's what we're after. We could
well have a blood result. Yeah, well you'll certainly be
stopping there until we get a blood result. Well, we'll
only ever get one good crack at them, so we
want to be well armed before we ever get back.
You know, we'll have all our forensic and everything before
(14:28):
we get back.
Speaker 5 (14:30):
The Chamberlain's car was quickly moved to the New South
Wales Police Vehicle compound for forensic testing. I asked Graham
Childwood why they chose that site.
Speaker 11 (14:41):
Well, Kirran Bowie is in New South Wales, and of
course the closest forensic science unit to Kurr and Boone
is in Sydney, so we wanted to get the car
examined as quickly as we could. You know, putting a
car in the back of a truck or however you
do it, transporting to somewhere else potentially could contaminate the evidence.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
I suspect that if everyone involved in the investigation, from
the police commissioner to Graham Childwood, could have had their
time over again. They might choose a different place to
test the tarana the traces of baby blood. In fact,
I asked the former Attorney General of the Northern Territory,
Daryl Mansey, himself an ex policeman, what he made of
(15:29):
the forensic decision in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
It was a very rare set of circumstances where I
think a lot of people tried to do the right
thing made mistakes. I mean, what was his name, Cameron,
But he was supposedly one of the world's foremost blood experts,
you know, I mean he failed in that he became
a little bit too pedetic about what I guess what
(15:57):
he was looking at. And then on the other head,
we had the laboratories in New South Wales were not
supervising their processes properly. They actually failed terribly by not
managing their scientists in the processes that they were using.
(16:18):
I think with joy Cool it was almost like she
was at the bottom of the tree and the head
of the laboratories down there said this is your job,
go away and do it without anyone sort of saying,
now this is you know, this is how you do
making sure she was supervised. I mean that's sort of
the way that things are supposed to operate. So everywhere
(16:39):
you looked, what I guess people at first glance would
have thought was, yes, that's the proper way to do things.
It didn't happen.
Speaker 5 (16:50):
You said you didn't have apprehension about the people in
South Australa because you dealt with them. Was there any
sense with you and Neil Plumb about how import what
this was to your case?
Speaker 11 (17:01):
That well, it was another I suppose a brick in
the wall building building an overall picture. Neil Plumb has
had involvement with the New South Wales Police previously, from
my memory, so he was comfortable with the work that
they had done and what we're asking him to do.
Speaker 8 (17:22):
How's it all gone? That blood, that's that's got may
interested now mate.
Speaker 10 (17:30):
The blood on the floor, blood on the floor.
Speaker 8 (17:32):
Of the vehicle whereabouts exactly in the vegan right.
Speaker 11 (17:37):
My memory is that New South Wales Police had a
high level of faith in Enjoy Cool and the labs
she was working for, so you rely on that. But
that's that's the case with sending material off to any
laboratory for forensic examination and testing. That you have to
have faith in that lab to to do what you're
(18:02):
asking him to do or to do what they see
is necessary, and to apply, you know, all the professionalism
that you expect when that happens.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
Detective Superintendent Neil Plumb presented the Operation Okah findings to
the Northern Territory Police Commissioner and in turn the Northern
Territory Supreme Court quashed the findings of the first inquest
and eventually Coroner Jerry Galvin, using the evidence and testimony
presented to him, decided there was sufficient evidence to charge
(18:36):
the Chamberlains.
Speaker 13 (18:39):
Lindy and Michael were committed to.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
Trial, where Graham Childwood once again appeared in the witness box.
Speaker 11 (18:47):
When you go to trial, you are just another witness,
if you like, and there's no direct involvement apart from
you giving evidence before a judge in front of a jury,
no other involvement.
Speaker 8 (19:01):
You're there.
Speaker 11 (19:02):
It was just the court, but very much at arm's length.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Did you since the mood had changed about the Chamberlains,
what happens?
Speaker 11 (19:13):
No, and I really never got involved. I took the
view that taken a path and be your a trial.
I gave my evidence, as did numerous other people.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
One of the other witnesses to give evidence was Sally Shaw.
Her testimony was clear Azaria Chamberlain was alive at the
time when the Crown said she had been killed by
her mother. Sure heard the baby cry and alerted Lindy
Chamberlain to go and check the tent. If she'd heard
(19:48):
the baby cry, how could all these other things happened?
Speaker 13 (19:51):
Where did that sit with you?
Speaker 11 (19:55):
Okay, be call honestly, we.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Need to take a quick break. We'll return to my
interview with Graham Childwood later. Sally Shaw had effectively been
ignored by the jury, but the indigenous trackers who searched
for Azaria Chamberlain were not even called to give evidence.
The Crown did not want them and the defense were
unsure how they would appear in the witness box. The
(20:25):
deep experience of the Aungu people went unheard by the jury.
I asked veteran journalist Malcolm Brown what he thought about this.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
There were some Aboriginal trackers who said that Dingo took
the baby, but their evidence was tended to be discounted
in this arrogant white male superiority view of the world.
They should have had a lot more credence all the
way through because they were born and part of the
landscape right.
Speaker 13 (20:56):
In fact, which way did you go then?
Speaker 9 (20:58):
From here?
Speaker 6 (20:59):
Then?
Speaker 5 (20:59):
Two amazing stories were broadcast by Channel seven in late
nineteen eighty five. They shed light on the Lindy Chamberlain case.
That nothing before.
Speaker 7 (21:08):
That's a Kingle drag, a proper dingle, little one you
can see said where the tent was Nipper.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
While both sides agreed that Nipper Win Marty had not
led the main search team on the night of Azaria's death,
his wife, Barbara and others like Nue Munyonteriri had tracked
Dingo poor Prince away from the tent into the surrounding santis.
Nipper returned to the barbecue site in late nineteen eighty
(21:36):
five with a seven News team to explain just what
his wife and others had seen.
Speaker 8 (21:44):
Is that where you started to see the tracks first.
Speaker 7 (21:46):
Yep, happy, look around, Craig kan Comron, that one where
they're pull enough, come round again, corner guent side.
Speaker 16 (22:02):
What's the difference between this track here and the one
you were tracking the.
Speaker 7 (22:05):
Dame Din from Dingle as the Dingley.
Speaker 13 (22:09):
And you were tracking what were you tracking them?
Speaker 7 (22:11):
I'ban tracking cord By right, and he.
Speaker 17 (22:15):
Was he half dog and half dinger.
Speaker 7 (22:17):
Yeah, Robert Dingle kipp the drag?
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Where was the bush where the baby was put down?
Speaker 7 (22:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I been kept out when they said Linda Barry the
baby they couldn't find him.
Speaker 7 (22:30):
Yeah, that that happened. Happened Belaven Dingle, Yeah, Lindy's er
Keldy and Bourba game. We can for nothing.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
And now the second story that Channel seven broadcast in
nineteen eighty five, that is important to.
Speaker 8 (22:51):
Hear to this day. No one knows for sure what.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
It's a little strange to me this one, because I
actually edited this story from November twenty sixth, nineteen eight.
Speaker 13 (23:00):
I've at least for seven's State Affair News prod and
reasonable doubt.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
I never imagined I'd been playing it again thirty four
years later. It's an interview with Yvonne Kine, one of
twelve jurors from the Chamberlain trial. I rang my former
colleague Paul Jenkins to jog his memory on a story
he reported that broke many.
Speaker 10 (23:22):
Rules right from the start. The Dingo's got my baby,
that cry that went out into the night, that captured imagination,
not just in Australia but all over the world. You
were in one camp or the other. You believed Lindy
Chamberlain or you thought she'd killed her child. I think
(23:45):
I was in the believing Lindy Chamberlain, because you know,
things like that happened in the bush and it just
didn't seem on what I knew of the case from
the reporting of it, that it was beyond the realms
of possible that a dingo had taken an infant from
a tent as Rock August seventeenth, nineteen eighty and the
(24:07):
beginning of one of the most bizarre cases. And on
this particular day, we took a phone call from a
jura in the Lindy Chamberlain murder trial. Now that's a
pretty unusual occurrence. I can't recall before or since having
a jura come to a TV station or a newspaper
(24:30):
and you know, subsequently do an interview that was published,
and you found her guilty, guilty of murdering her child.
Why do you think she should be released now?
Speaker 18 (24:42):
Because there's always been that seed of doubt, even though
we sort of went on the fact there was well
in my mind that tiny seed of doubt that has
just grown because I see it all around me, people
trying to pull her out of jail, and then I
(25:03):
just feel in my heart, I'm frightened and guilty. I'm
just worried that it was wrong because so much has
come out since that we didn't know about.
Speaker 10 (25:11):
Did you have that seed of doubt at the time, though,
I mean, you say you've always had that seed of doubt,
But did you have it at the time of the trial?
Speaker 18 (25:18):
Yes? I think I had in my own mind that
seed of doubt, But at that time the facts told.
Speaker 17 (25:25):
Me that I had to say guilty.
Speaker 10 (25:29):
Duras are told throughout a trial that they must reach
their verdict on the facts presented to them at trial.
No emotion, no speculation, no outside influences. You know, they're
not to read newspapers or watch television and that sort
of thing. Just consider the evidence presented a trial. Shouldn't you, though,
if you had that seed of doubt, have held out
(25:50):
for a not guilty verdict.
Speaker 18 (25:52):
I know, But we all.
Speaker 17 (25:53):
Talked over our doubts.
Speaker 18 (25:56):
We all put them forward as we spoke, and we
all talked over and then we had little experiments between
ourselves in the tent and with the things that we
had to look at, and that made up my mind
that night, well beyond reasonable doubt, it must be.
Speaker 17 (26:14):
We can't do anything else but so guilty.
Speaker 10 (26:16):
It's an amazing insight into the way it proceeds in
the jury room at the end of a trial, the
discussions they had, the re enactments they went through, they
eventually decided as a group on a guilty verdict on
the evidence.
Speaker 8 (26:32):
It was a unanimous decision.
Speaker 17 (26:34):
Yes, it took us a while. We all put the
if some butts and falls and watchfalls together, but not
one of us said what we thought until the very
last day. And then we all wrote it down on
a little bit of paper and put it into the middle.
Speaker 10 (26:50):
That was the first one, the first fact.
Speaker 18 (26:52):
And that came out for not sure, for guilty, and
for not guilty.
Speaker 10 (26:57):
So it was very evenly divided at that point. Where
did it go from there?
Speaker 18 (27:02):
Well, then we decided the foreman decided that we would
before unsures would have put forward what they were unsure
of that and that we go through notes. And at
that stage we had all the evidence in front of us,
were at the whole courtroom to walk around and look at.
So we did a few little experiments. We held the
(27:23):
baby doll that was the same size as Azaria and
sort of dragged it along the floor to see how
the dog would have dragged it. And it didn't work
like that.
Speaker 10 (27:37):
So what was your conclusion?
Speaker 18 (27:39):
As we did those few experiments and looked at things closely,
we all swayed towards the guilty.
Speaker 10 (27:47):
How they worked their way through that process is something
that you know before or since. I don't recall another
case where a dura has come forward and said this
is how we reached our decision. That's an extraordinary thing.
I think all of the jurors were happy with that
guilty verdict.
Speaker 12 (28:05):
We were all very.
Speaker 18 (28:05):
Very upset, very and in fact some of the men
were crying. I mean all the women were in tears.
But it did it broke up a good fear of
the men too. We wanted to say she was not guilty,
but as the evidence.
Speaker 17 (28:21):
Came through, we used to come into the jury room
and say, well, how.
Speaker 18 (28:25):
Could it be this way? You know she must have
done it.
Speaker 10 (28:30):
She was clearly conflicted, she was distressed at what she done.
And it wasn't until a couple of years after the verdict,
after the trial, when new information had started to emerge,
when it became clear that not all of the facts
had been presented to the jury, that she began to think, well,
(28:50):
maybe we've done the wrong thing.
Speaker 13 (28:52):
Maybe we didn't have all the.
Speaker 10 (28:53):
Facts and we should have trusted our first instinct.
Speaker 8 (28:57):
Have you changed your mind?
Speaker 10 (28:58):
Do you think she's not guilty enough.
Speaker 18 (29:01):
I'm worried in my mind that she's not, that she's
not guilty. I'm very worried.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
It's hard to believe that missus Kane and three other
jurors who initially thought Lindy Chamberlain was not guilty changed
their minds based on circumstantial evidence. Seven years before she
agreed to convict Lindy Chamberlain, Yvonne Kin had lived in
Alice Springs and her own son had been bitten by
(29:29):
a dingo in their backyard. Let's hear from former Northern
Territory Attorney General Daryl Manzi.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
This massive media interest. It must have affected every jura
that sat in that it must have had an effect
also on even though judges are supposed to be people
that have no emotions and can only take interest in
the evidence proceeded or I'm sure that that that it
(30:03):
was everywhere. In the end it was television. You know,
there was a whole range of things which made it very,
very difficult to see how this was going to sort
of end.
Speaker 5 (30:18):
There have been calls in recent years for a change
in the way that complex scientific evidence is presented in court.
Many believe the evidence in a trial like the Chamberlain's
would be better evaluated by a panel of experts in
much the same way the EU does in its legal system.
Speaker 19 (30:38):
Well, looking back on it, on it, I mean to me,
the scientific evidence should have gone before a board of
scientists and then some decisions reached as to what should
be presented, and then it gets presented. And there was
a lot in the case where you did need to understand,
(31:04):
you know, the science side of it.
Speaker 6 (31:06):
If at the time there was the ability for that
evidence to be assessed independently, and given to the fact
that scientific blood was very iffy, it wasn't an absolute,
you know, it was. It was really different days. And
of course the experts will argue, as they do in
(31:28):
just about every scientific endeavor, that there's a different conclusion
can be reached and the jury are never schooled in
any of this in any way, because we just don't
teach people these things at school. So in this particular case,
if this happened today, there would be probably a different ending,
(31:53):
but we still have a jury system because it seemed
to be the going back to the days of the
community making an assessment.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Camberra Times journalist Philip Castle had secured an interview with
Marshall Perrin, the Northern Territory Attorney General.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
It was a very strained interview. He wasn't at all
open with me, and I wasn't mucking around. I just said, look,
I understand that you offered a deal to Lindy that
if she pleaded guilty, she could get out on a
non custodial sentence and the spasinatal depression would be used
as the reason to release her. And his response, which
(32:34):
gave it away completely, was who told you that? And
I said, well, you know that, I've been to visit
Lindy this morning.
Speaker 15 (32:42):
She told me.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
I said, do you deny it? And he said no,
he said that was offered to her. I said, well
that's pretty poor, isn't it. He said, you were trying
to set her up to entice her to get out
of jail simply by telling a different story to the
Dingo story. And he wasn't very comfortable with that interview,
but you know, I got it.
Speaker 9 (33:04):
He confirmed that that had happened.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
And I also got a very strong impression from him
that they felt very threatened by the federal government and
the Senate sort of attempt to overrule their own decisions.
And I did put it to him that she wanted
to be out for Christmas, and he said, oh, well,
that's irrelevant.
Speaker 9 (33:25):
Mister Perrin is the person who has the total responsibility
and how to other release her or not.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
In the following days, Marshall Perrin was debating Colin Mason
in Seven Studios.
Speaker 13 (33:35):
I think the day we.
Speaker 16 (33:36):
Come to public consensus or public voting on one whether
a prisoner should be released or not, and secondly, whether
or not an inquiry should be held irrespective of the
justice of an inquiry or the grounds for an inquiry,
to overturn one hundred and fifty years of judicial practice,
I think will be a very serious day in Australia
(33:57):
and I certainly want to add to it during my
term as a team in general to parent.
Speaker 14 (34:01):
If we just leave it there and perhaps get a
final comment from centernimation.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
Where does that leave you?
Speaker 9 (34:05):
I will be pressing for a commission of inquiry from
the Commonwealth of the powers of a royal commission, because
I believe that where so much evidence is regarded by
so many eminent legal authorities in Australian so much of
the public to be in doubt, that it would leave
a permanent question mark over the Australian system of justice
right into the future. If there isn't an inquiry. There
(34:27):
must be an inquiry into the Chamberlain case to determine
the facts, the truth or otherwise.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
The Chamberlain Innocence Committee had created a blue Book of documents,
so called for the color of its cover. It included
Les Smith's test results that proved the Crown's trial evidence
was flawed. It included new evidence confirmed by Hans Brunner.
There were the photos and documents from Barry Botcher's visit
(34:56):
to the German laboratory, and statements from people like Derek
Roff and Professor Robin Carroll. I've spoken for hours with
Stuart Tipple about the Chamberlain case. We've exchanged dozens of emails.
Speaker 13 (35:12):
And text messages.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
For the trial you might think that he's a very
patient man, and you might also think that he's very
loyal to the Chamberlain's and you're right, he's both, but
he's also something else above all of that. He's loyal
to the rule of law and justice. So where was
(35:36):
he at in late nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
So all of this new evidence went to the Northern
Territory Attorney of General, and I was quite confident there's
no way in the world that if this was properly
looked at, that we shouldn't get a royal commission. The
Northern Territory newspapers indicate for quite some time that a
(36:02):
royal commission was going to be called. And then suddenly
it changed, and you saw the flavor that, Okay, someone's
in the know, something's happening here. They know something. And
sure enough I got the letter. I got the letter
from the Northern Territory. Dear mister Tipple. I have carefully
considered the new evidence, and I do not consider that
(36:24):
there is anything in there that is cogent enough. And
the application was refused, so that's it. Once that's refused,
that's the end of the ray. And so there was
nothing else I could do, and there was nothing else
(36:46):
the Chamberlains could do.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
As words spread on the Northern Territory government's decision, a
young English backpacker named David Brett passed through customs at
Sydney Airport. The young man from Kent, who had a
curiosity with witchcraft and sorcery, had one destination in.
Speaker 13 (37:07):
Mind airs rock uloeroo.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
If you think you know the Chamberlain's story, you don't
until next week. I'd like to say thanks to Nicky
Simon and Stephen who helped create this episode, and a
shout out to Chris Reason, Paul White, Linda Scott, David
Jones and Mike Smithson. And thanks to you for listening.
This episode is not suitable for children to listen to
or overhear. It may contain course language, adult themes, and
graphic descriptions. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised
that the following program may contain the names of people
who have died a perfect storm. The true story of
(00:20):
the Chamberlain's.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I think Azaria would have lasted a matter of minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory Police who
were determined to get her.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
People were saying to me, Oh, you're going there to
see that woman who killed a child.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
Bad things happen to good people.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Episode ten, The Matinee Jacket.
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Hello, I'm John Buck. Over the past year, I've set
myself the goal of looking at as many of the
elements of the Chamberlain case as is possible. Stephen and
I have searched through the Seven Studios archive find out
what was broadcast, had been found of the child.
Speaker 6 (01:06):
And what wasn't. I didn't get the I didn't get
the bullets from what have you?
Speaker 7 (01:10):
In a four night later as a disappeared.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
I've also been able to access materials stored elsewhere, such
as the Northern Territory Police, Fire and Emergency Services Information Archive.
Speaker 8 (01:23):
What we have is neither the child were killed across
the area of.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
The and I've recorded my own interviews with those involved
or with valuable insights.
Speaker 9 (01:33):
I suppose if you're a key policemen.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
I also thought it was best to only use material
of Lindy and Michael Chamberlain from the time.
Speaker 10 (01:42):
My wife is an innocent woman, and it'll be virtually
over my dead body that she'll stay in jail.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
So you could hear the same interviews that the public
heard in the early nineteen eighties. But there was one
person that our searchers found very little of, one person
who the case revolved around. But I doubt that an
interview could happen or would happen, for any number of reasons.
Speaker 11 (02:11):
Well, you have up here from Adelaide, the forensic botanists,
and there collecting various samples of plant matter from around.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
The Detective Sergeant Graham Childwood interviewed Lindy and Michael Chamberlain.
His team collected evidence from oolaru as Rock searched the
Chamberlain's house and their car. He supervised blood tests, watched
media appearances of the couple, and recorded conversations.
Speaker 8 (02:37):
With everyone about three hours work this morning. Everything.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Graham Childwood had been tasked with finding all of the
pieces from a complex missing child case. In less than
ten years, he had gone from a junior constable to
the lead detective on Australia's most famous police investigation.
Speaker 11 (03:01):
I'd always had aspirations to become a police officer. I
tried to join the New South Wales Police excuse that
as an adult, but they had then I think still
did a very strict physical requirements. I hyped weight. I
was a skinny of the lad and couldn't make their
weight requirements, so I couldn't get in. I went off
(03:25):
and did some other things in New South Wales and
then in about nineteen seventy three saw an aid for
the NT Police wanting police officers, so I put an
application in, got an interview and was successful.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Graham Charlwood quickly rose through the ranks and was posted
to Airs Rock as a detective sergeant in the criminal
investigation branch in nineteen seventy eight. Two years later, Azaria
Chamberlain disappeared from her parents' tent. Inspector Michael Gilroy was
the first to arrive at Asroch Ularu on August eighteenth,
(04:03):
nineteen eighty, and he conducted the first interview with Lindy Chamberlain.
Speaker 8 (04:12):
Could you please tell me your full name?
Speaker 12 (04:14):
Underdress alex Lynn Chamberlain, three Able Smith Parade, Sunset Mount.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Either you actually see anything in the dingo's mouth?
Speaker 12 (04:27):
No, I didn't see anything in the dingo's mouth because
that was below the level of the light. It sort
of had its head down and coming out of the tent.
I thought it was just shaking its head to get
past the him that it has.
Speaker 13 (04:41):
Thought flashed through.
Speaker 12 (04:42):
My mind that it's no good going to caravans and
telling people when you please come and help. So I
just stood there and screamed out as anybody got a
torch because the.
Speaker 11 (04:50):
Dingoes baby, they came immediately.
Speaker 12 (04:56):
There was almost as if they'd been sitting with torture
in their laps.
Speaker 13 (05:00):
Was poor black.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I know that's a really tough thing to listen to.
It's a recording that was played in court and then
it was stored away for thirty nine years. But let's
not forget that's what this whole show is about. After
the initial search failed to find the nine and a
half week old baby, Graham Childwood was put in charge
(05:28):
through September nineteen eighty. He tracked down missing witnesses, sent
evidence to laboratories, and then flew to Mount Isa to
speak with Lindy and Michael Chamberlain. He interviewed Azaria's mother first,
without a lawyer present.
Speaker 11 (05:44):
I'd have to be honest and say that she was cooperative. Yeah,
there was no reluctance on her part to participate.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
Yeah, you said later that you thought she may be
hiding something.
Speaker 13 (06:00):
Did suspect her?
Speaker 11 (06:04):
I suppose. I'd formed of view at that stage that
there was more to the story than was being told.
Speaker 13 (06:10):
But what I didn't know, and you didn't offer her
a caution.
Speaker 11 (06:16):
So I did. I didn't have reasonable cause to believe
that she'd committed an offense. There was no need to
caution her.
Speaker 13 (06:23):
But your cautioned, Michael, I wonder why you did that.
Speaker 11 (06:27):
My recollection is that parts of the story that he'd
previously told didn't quite add up.
Speaker 7 (06:33):
Yep.
Speaker 11 (06:35):
So we'd reached a view that maybe he had some
involvement that he hadn't disclosed, right, but not it didn't
form of you. It was particularly what involvement some involvement
more more in the more in the the In the
a the aftermath after the event, it was based on
(06:57):
some of the forensic material or evidence that the results
we'd head back at that stage. My memory is it
related to his camera bag.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
On the night of Azaria's disappearance, Michael Chamberlain had driven
in the family car to a motel to join his
wife and sons. He was accompanied by ROBERTA. Downs, a
local nurse, who sat in the front passenger's seat. Her
police interviews describes seeing a camera bag which appeared to
be very full. She asked mister Chamberlain if he would
(07:30):
like her to hold the bag while he was driving,
but he said, quote that it was okay, and that
he always kept it there because he kept his cameras
in it and when he was driving along he could
take pictures of things as he saw them, unquote. Despite
the fact that there was evidence that mister Chamberlain did
(07:50):
keep his camera in that manner and that Miss Downs
noticed no blood on the camera bag, the investigating detectives
were not con vinced. Graham Childwood and John Scott questioned
Lindy and Michael Chamberlain over two days and then prepared
to return to Alice springs. You know, you finish up
(08:12):
that day and you walk out, what's your feeling?
Speaker 13 (08:15):
Then once about this couple.
Speaker 11 (08:20):
That we had a lot more work to do to
reach reach any sort of conclusion as to what had
really occurred. We didn't have enough evidence to suggest judging anyone.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
There was one piece of evidence still missing. Let's listen
to Lindy Chamberlain explain what Azaria was wearing on the
night of August seventeenth, nineteen eighty.
Speaker 12 (08:46):
He had a little throw away and appy I am seeing,
and a little stretched owling suit, a little pair of
nettle booties for a little knitted matt and I jacket.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
In Britain, Australia, New Zealand and most Commonwealth countries, a
short coat for a baby was often called a matinee jacket.
It's what we now call a button up sweater.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Lindy had told everybody that there was a matinee jacket,
but when the clothing was found, it wasn't there.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Stuart Tipple is the Chamberlain's longest serving lawyer.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
And of course it became important because when they said,
we've tested the clothing and we couldn't find hairs, and
we couldn't find solive, etc. We were able to say, well,
that's because the babies wearing a matinee jacket and that
was covering the other clothing. So of course the Crown
(09:49):
never accepted there was a matinee jacket and really implied
that Lindy was lying about that.
Speaker 11 (09:56):
We always knew the matinee jacket was missing, obviously from
the evidence of Missus Chamberlain that the child that had
a mad enae jacket on it and she put it
down and it wasn't found with the other clothing, which
seemed odd. Regardless of how the clothing got there, it
(10:17):
was odd that the matinee jacket wasn't there.
Speaker 13 (10:19):
You hadn't discounted it actually.
Speaker 11 (10:22):
Existing, No, I know, we never thought that at all.
I certainly didn't. We subsequently conducted extensive ground searches right
round the rock to try and find it. It wasn't.
We didn't say it never existed.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Detective Sergeant Charlwood gathered further evidence at Airs Rock, combined
it with results from the Adelaide Labs, a report from
Sergeant Sandry in Darwin and the Chamberlain's formal interviews from
Mount Isao, and he handed it all to Coroner Barrett,
who held an inquiry into Azaria Chamberlain's death. Its coronial
(11:00):
findings were televised in February nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 14 (11:04):
I find that after her death, the body of Azaria
was taken from the possession of a of the Dingo
and disposed of ann by an unknown method by a
person or person's.
Speaker 11 (11:20):
Name unknown, and he made a subsequent finding that there
was involvement by person or person's unknown, which I think
was quite an open finding.
Speaker 13 (11:32):
What did your group take from I guess from that.
Speaker 11 (11:36):
I don't have a vivid recollection. I know that we
had a meeting and where too now I was discussed
and subsequently Operation Acre was set up. Investigations were resumed.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
When a report came back from Professor James Cameron in
London that outlined a scenario where Lindy Chamberlain had decapitated
her child in the family car. The Northern Territory Police
Commissioner and Attorney General cleared the way for Graham Childwood
and a team of detectives to fan out across Australia.
Speaker 11 (12:15):
Quite simply. A plan of action was developed and part
of that was to go to Curranbong and pensively to
look at the Chamberlain's vehicle, the vehicle that they'd taken
out to ASRock.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
Childwood recorded the search of the Chamberlain's house on a
micro cassette recorder.
Speaker 11 (12:36):
Yes, so I didn't say the chamberlains were exhuberant about it,
but they were cooperative.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Was suddenly the biggest media event again. Even during the
serch helicopters had been hovering over them. The meat who've
been tipped off by Channel.
Speaker 15 (13:01):
Seven helicopter just landed Channel Every conversation Childwood had with me,
in fact, every conversation they had with anybody, was recorded,
and recordings were made of child by Childhood of his
conversation with me.
Speaker 11 (13:21):
I believe.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
He had also taken Lindy in a car and had
had a conversation with her, but claimed that the tape
recording of that conversation had failed, and so it basically
became in that instance the case of his word against
her word, which differed quite a bit where he claimed
(13:46):
he'd put the allegations that she'd merged a child directly
to her.
Speaker 13 (13:52):
You had a chat with missus Chamberlain. Yes, I ask
you what your recollection of that is where.
Speaker 11 (14:00):
And have the vivid recollection of the conversation and I
spoke to him. But beyond that now I don't recall.
Speaker 8 (14:06):
Let's hope that car is what we're after. Sorry, let's
hopeen it's the car, that's what we're after. We could
well have a blood result. Yeah, well you'll certainly be
stopping there until we get a blood result. Well, we'll
only ever get one good crack at them, so we
want to be well armed before we ever get back.
You know, we'll have all our forensic and everything before
(14:28):
we get back.
Speaker 5 (14:30):
The Chamberlain's car was quickly moved to the New South
Wales Police Vehicle compound for forensic testing. I asked Graham
Childwood why they chose that site.
Speaker 11 (14:41):
Well, Kirran Bowie is in New South Wales, and of
course the closest forensic science unit to Kurr and Boone
is in Sydney, so we wanted to get the car
examined as quickly as we could. You know, putting a
car in the back of a truck or however you
do it, transporting to somewhere else potentially could contaminate the evidence.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
I suspect that if everyone involved in the investigation, from
the police commissioner to Graham Childwood, could have had their
time over again. They might choose a different place to
test the tarana the traces of baby blood. In fact,
I asked the former Attorney General of the Northern Territory,
Daryl Mansey, himself an ex policeman, what he made of
(15:29):
the forensic decision in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
It was a very rare set of circumstances where I
think a lot of people tried to do the right
thing made mistakes. I mean, what was his name, Cameron,
But he was supposedly one of the world's foremost blood experts,
you know, I mean he failed in that he became
a little bit too pedetic about what I guess what
(15:57):
he was looking at. And then on the other head,
we had the laboratories in New South Wales were not
supervising their processes properly. They actually failed terribly by not
managing their scientists in the processes that they were using.
(16:18):
I think with joy Cool it was almost like she
was at the bottom of the tree and the head
of the laboratories down there said this is your job,
go away and do it without anyone sort of saying,
now this is you know, this is how you do
making sure she was supervised. I mean that's sort of
the way that things are supposed to operate. So everywhere
(16:39):
you looked, what I guess people at first glance would
have thought was, yes, that's the proper way to do things.
It didn't happen.
Speaker 5 (16:50):
You said you didn't have apprehension about the people in
South Australa because you dealt with them. Was there any
sense with you and Neil Plumb about how import what
this was to your case?
Speaker 11 (17:01):
That well, it was another I suppose a brick in
the wall building building an overall picture. Neil Plumb has
had involvement with the New South Wales Police previously, from
my memory, so he was comfortable with the work that
they had done and what we're asking him to do.
Speaker 8 (17:22):
How's it all gone? That blood, that's that's got may
interested now mate.
Speaker 10 (17:30):
The blood on the floor, blood on the floor.
Speaker 8 (17:32):
Of the vehicle whereabouts exactly in the vegan right.
Speaker 11 (17:37):
My memory is that New South Wales Police had a
high level of faith in Enjoy Cool and the labs
she was working for, so you rely on that. But
that's that's the case with sending material off to any
laboratory for forensic examination and testing. That you have to
have faith in that lab to to do what you're
(18:02):
asking him to do or to do what they see
is necessary, and to apply, you know, all the professionalism
that you expect when that happens.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
Detective Superintendent Neil Plumb presented the Operation Okah findings to
the Northern Territory Police Commissioner and in turn the Northern
Territory Supreme Court quashed the findings of the first inquest
and eventually Coroner Jerry Galvin, using the evidence and testimony
presented to him, decided there was sufficient evidence to charge
(18:36):
the Chamberlains.
Speaker 13 (18:39):
Lindy and Michael were committed to.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
Trial, where Graham Childwood once again appeared in the witness box.
Speaker 11 (18:47):
When you go to trial, you are just another witness,
if you like, and there's no direct involvement apart from
you giving evidence before a judge in front of a jury,
no other involvement.
Speaker 8 (19:01):
You're there.
Speaker 11 (19:02):
It was just the court, but very much at arm's length.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Did you since the mood had changed about the Chamberlains,
what happens?
Speaker 11 (19:13):
No, and I really never got involved. I took the
view that taken a path and be your a trial.
I gave my evidence, as did numerous other people.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
One of the other witnesses to give evidence was Sally Shaw.
Her testimony was clear Azaria Chamberlain was alive at the
time when the Crown said she had been killed by
her mother. Sure heard the baby cry and alerted Lindy
Chamberlain to go and check the tent. If she'd heard
(19:48):
the baby cry, how could all these other things happened?
Speaker 13 (19:51):
Where did that sit with you?
Speaker 11 (19:55):
Okay, be call honestly, we.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Need to take a quick break. We'll return to my
interview with Graham Childwood later. Sally Shaw had effectively been
ignored by the jury, but the indigenous trackers who searched
for Azaria Chamberlain were not even called to give evidence.
The Crown did not want them and the defense were
unsure how they would appear in the witness box. The
(20:25):
deep experience of the Aungu people went unheard by the jury.
I asked veteran journalist Malcolm Brown what he thought about this.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
There were some Aboriginal trackers who said that Dingo took
the baby, but their evidence was tended to be discounted
in this arrogant white male superiority view of the world.
They should have had a lot more credence all the
way through because they were born and part of the
landscape right.
Speaker 13 (20:56):
In fact, which way did you go then?
Speaker 9 (20:58):
From here?
Speaker 6 (20:59):
Then?
Speaker 5 (20:59):
Two amazing stories were broadcast by Channel seven in late
nineteen eighty five. They shed light on the Lindy Chamberlain case.
That nothing before.
Speaker 7 (21:08):
That's a Kingle drag, a proper dingle, little one you
can see said where the tent was Nipper.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
While both sides agreed that Nipper Win Marty had not
led the main search team on the night of Azaria's death,
his wife, Barbara and others like Nue Munyonteriri had tracked
Dingo poor Prince away from the tent into the surrounding santis.
Nipper returned to the barbecue site in late nineteen eighty
(21:36):
five with a seven News team to explain just what
his wife and others had seen.
Speaker 8 (21:44):
Is that where you started to see the tracks first.
Speaker 7 (21:46):
Yep, happy, look around, Craig kan Comron, that one where
they're pull enough, come round again, corner guent side.
Speaker 16 (22:02):
What's the difference between this track here and the one
you were tracking the.
Speaker 7 (22:05):
Dame Din from Dingle as the Dingley.
Speaker 13 (22:09):
And you were tracking what were you tracking them?
Speaker 7 (22:11):
I'ban tracking cord By right, and he.
Speaker 17 (22:15):
Was he half dog and half dinger.
Speaker 7 (22:17):
Yeah, Robert Dingle kipp the drag?
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Where was the bush where the baby was put down?
Speaker 7 (22:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I been kept out when they said Linda Barry the
baby they couldn't find him.
Speaker 7 (22:30):
Yeah, that that happened. Happened Belaven Dingle, Yeah, Lindy's er
Keldy and Bourba game. We can for nothing.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
And now the second story that Channel seven broadcast in
nineteen eighty five, that is important to.
Speaker 8 (22:51):
Hear to this day. No one knows for sure what.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
It's a little strange to me this one, because I
actually edited this story from November twenty sixth, nineteen eight.
Speaker 13 (23:00):
I've at least for seven's State Affair News prod and
reasonable doubt.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
I never imagined I'd been playing it again thirty four
years later. It's an interview with Yvonne Kine, one of
twelve jurors from the Chamberlain trial. I rang my former
colleague Paul Jenkins to jog his memory on a story
he reported that broke many.
Speaker 10 (23:22):
Rules right from the start. The Dingo's got my baby,
that cry that went out into the night, that captured imagination,
not just in Australia but all over the world. You
were in one camp or the other. You believed Lindy
Chamberlain or you thought she'd killed her child. I think
(23:45):
I was in the believing Lindy Chamberlain, because you know,
things like that happened in the bush and it just
didn't seem on what I knew of the case from
the reporting of it, that it was beyond the realms
of possible that a dingo had taken an infant from
a tent as Rock August seventeenth, nineteen eighty and the
(24:07):
beginning of one of the most bizarre cases. And on
this particular day, we took a phone call from a
jura in the Lindy Chamberlain murder trial. Now that's a
pretty unusual occurrence. I can't recall before or since having
a jura come to a TV station or a newspaper
(24:30):
and you know, subsequently do an interview that was published,
and you found her guilty, guilty of murdering her child.
Why do you think she should be released now?
Speaker 18 (24:42):
Because there's always been that seed of doubt, even though
we sort of went on the fact there was well
in my mind that tiny seed of doubt that has
just grown because I see it all around me, people
trying to pull her out of jail, and then I
(25:03):
just feel in my heart, I'm frightened and guilty. I'm
just worried that it was wrong because so much has
come out since that we didn't know about.
Speaker 10 (25:11):
Did you have that seed of doubt at the time, though,
I mean, you say you've always had that seed of doubt,
But did you have it at the time of the trial?
Speaker 18 (25:18):
Yes? I think I had in my own mind that
seed of doubt, But at that time the facts told.
Speaker 17 (25:25):
Me that I had to say guilty.
Speaker 10 (25:29):
Duras are told throughout a trial that they must reach
their verdict on the facts presented to them at trial.
No emotion, no speculation, no outside influences. You know, they're
not to read newspapers or watch television and that sort
of thing. Just consider the evidence presented a trial. Shouldn't you, though,
if you had that seed of doubt, have held out
(25:50):
for a not guilty verdict.
Speaker 18 (25:52):
I know, But we all.
Speaker 17 (25:53):
Talked over our doubts.
Speaker 18 (25:56):
We all put them forward as we spoke, and we
all talked over and then we had little experiments between
ourselves in the tent and with the things that we
had to look at, and that made up my mind
that night, well beyond reasonable doubt, it must be.
Speaker 17 (26:14):
We can't do anything else but so guilty.
Speaker 10 (26:16):
It's an amazing insight into the way it proceeds in
the jury room at the end of a trial, the
discussions they had, the re enactments they went through, they
eventually decided as a group on a guilty verdict on
the evidence.
Speaker 8 (26:32):
It was a unanimous decision.
Speaker 17 (26:34):
Yes, it took us a while. We all put the
if some butts and falls and watchfalls together, but not
one of us said what we thought until the very
last day. And then we all wrote it down on
a little bit of paper and put it into the middle.
Speaker 10 (26:50):
That was the first one, the first fact.
Speaker 18 (26:52):
And that came out for not sure, for guilty, and
for not guilty.
Speaker 10 (26:57):
So it was very evenly divided at that point. Where
did it go from there?
Speaker 18 (27:02):
Well, then we decided the foreman decided that we would
before unsures would have put forward what they were unsure
of that and that we go through notes. And at
that stage we had all the evidence in front of us,
were at the whole courtroom to walk around and look at.
So we did a few little experiments. We held the
(27:23):
baby doll that was the same size as Azaria and
sort of dragged it along the floor to see how
the dog would have dragged it. And it didn't work
like that.
Speaker 10 (27:37):
So what was your conclusion?
Speaker 18 (27:39):
As we did those few experiments and looked at things closely,
we all swayed towards the guilty.
Speaker 10 (27:47):
How they worked their way through that process is something
that you know before or since. I don't recall another
case where a dura has come forward and said this
is how we reached our decision. That's an extraordinary thing.
I think all of the jurors were happy with that
guilty verdict.
Speaker 12 (28:05):
We were all very.
Speaker 18 (28:05):
Very upset, very and in fact some of the men
were crying. I mean all the women were in tears.
But it did it broke up a good fear of
the men too. We wanted to say she was not guilty,
but as the evidence.
Speaker 17 (28:21):
Came through, we used to come into the jury room
and say, well, how.
Speaker 18 (28:25):
Could it be this way? You know she must have
done it.
Speaker 10 (28:30):
She was clearly conflicted, she was distressed at what she done.
And it wasn't until a couple of years after the verdict,
after the trial, when new information had started to emerge,
when it became clear that not all of the facts
had been presented to the jury, that she began to think, well,
(28:50):
maybe we've done the wrong thing.
Speaker 13 (28:52):
Maybe we didn't have all the.
Speaker 10 (28:53):
Facts and we should have trusted our first instinct.
Speaker 8 (28:57):
Have you changed your mind?
Speaker 10 (28:58):
Do you think she's not guilty enough.
Speaker 18 (29:01):
I'm worried in my mind that she's not, that she's
not guilty. I'm very worried.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
It's hard to believe that missus Kane and three other
jurors who initially thought Lindy Chamberlain was not guilty changed
their minds based on circumstantial evidence. Seven years before she
agreed to convict Lindy Chamberlain, Yvonne Kin had lived in
Alice Springs and her own son had been bitten by
(29:29):
a dingo in their backyard. Let's hear from former Northern
Territory Attorney General Daryl Manzi.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
This massive media interest. It must have affected every jura
that sat in that it must have had an effect
also on even though judges are supposed to be people
that have no emotions and can only take interest in
the evidence proceeded or I'm sure that that that it
(30:03):
was everywhere. In the end it was television. You know,
there was a whole range of things which made it very,
very difficult to see how this was going to sort
of end.
Speaker 5 (30:18):
There have been calls in recent years for a change
in the way that complex scientific evidence is presented in court.
Many believe the evidence in a trial like the Chamberlain's
would be better evaluated by a panel of experts in
much the same way the EU does in its legal system.
Speaker 19 (30:38):
Well, looking back on it, on it, I mean to me,
the scientific evidence should have gone before a board of
scientists and then some decisions reached as to what should
be presented, and then it gets presented. And there was
a lot in the case where you did need to understand,
(31:04):
you know, the science side of it.
Speaker 6 (31:06):
If at the time there was the ability for that
evidence to be assessed independently, and given to the fact
that scientific blood was very iffy, it wasn't an absolute,
you know, it was. It was really different days. And
of course the experts will argue, as they do in
(31:28):
just about every scientific endeavor, that there's a different conclusion
can be reached and the jury are never schooled in
any of this in any way, because we just don't
teach people these things at school. So in this particular case,
if this happened today, there would be probably a different ending,
(31:53):
but we still have a jury system because it seemed
to be the going back to the days of the
community making an assessment.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Camberra Times journalist Philip Castle had secured an interview with
Marshall Perrin, the Northern Territory Attorney General.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
It was a very strained interview. He wasn't at all
open with me, and I wasn't mucking around. I just said, look,
I understand that you offered a deal to Lindy that
if she pleaded guilty, she could get out on a
non custodial sentence and the spasinatal depression would be used
as the reason to release her. And his response, which
(32:34):
gave it away completely, was who told you that? And
I said, well, you know that, I've been to visit
Lindy this morning.
Speaker 15 (32:42):
She told me.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
I said, do you deny it? And he said no,
he said that was offered to her. I said, well
that's pretty poor, isn't it. He said, you were trying
to set her up to entice her to get out
of jail simply by telling a different story to the
Dingo story. And he wasn't very comfortable with that interview,
but you know, I got it.
Speaker 9 (33:04):
He confirmed that that had happened.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
And I also got a very strong impression from him
that they felt very threatened by the federal government and
the Senate sort of attempt to overrule their own decisions.
And I did put it to him that she wanted
to be out for Christmas, and he said, oh, well,
that's irrelevant.
Speaker 9 (33:25):
Mister Perrin is the person who has the total responsibility
and how to other release her or not.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
In the following days, Marshall Perrin was debating Colin Mason
in Seven Studios.
Speaker 13 (33:35):
I think the day we.
Speaker 16 (33:36):
Come to public consensus or public voting on one whether
a prisoner should be released or not, and secondly, whether
or not an inquiry should be held irrespective of the
justice of an inquiry or the grounds for an inquiry,
to overturn one hundred and fifty years of judicial practice,
I think will be a very serious day in Australia
(33:57):
and I certainly want to add to it during my
term as a team in general to parent.
Speaker 14 (34:01):
If we just leave it there and perhaps get a
final comment from centernimation.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
Where does that leave you?
Speaker 9 (34:05):
I will be pressing for a commission of inquiry from
the Commonwealth of the powers of a royal commission, because
I believe that where so much evidence is regarded by
so many eminent legal authorities in Australian so much of
the public to be in doubt, that it would leave
a permanent question mark over the Australian system of justice
right into the future. If there isn't an inquiry. There
(34:27):
must be an inquiry into the Chamberlain case to determine
the facts, the truth or otherwise.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
The Chamberlain Innocence Committee had created a blue Book of documents,
so called for the color of its cover. It included
Les Smith's test results that proved the Crown's trial evidence
was flawed. It included new evidence confirmed by Hans Brunner.
There were the photos and documents from Barry Botcher's visit
(34:56):
to the German laboratory, and statements from people like Derek
Roff and Professor Robin Carroll. I've spoken for hours with
Stuart Tipple about the Chamberlain case. We've exchanged dozens of emails.
Speaker 13 (35:12):
And text messages.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
For the trial you might think that he's a very
patient man, and you might also think that he's very
loyal to the Chamberlain's and you're right, he's both, but
he's also something else above all of that. He's loyal
to the rule of law and justice. So where was
(35:36):
he at in late nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
So all of this new evidence went to the Northern
Territory Attorney of General, and I was quite confident there's
no way in the world that if this was properly
looked at, that we shouldn't get a royal commission. The
Northern Territory newspapers indicate for quite some time that a
(36:02):
royal commission was going to be called. And then suddenly
it changed, and you saw the flavor that, Okay, someone's
in the know, something's happening here. They know something. And
sure enough I got the letter. I got the letter
from the Northern Territory. Dear mister Tipple. I have carefully
considered the new evidence, and I do not consider that
(36:24):
there is anything in there that is cogent enough. And
the application was refused, so that's it. Once that's refused,
that's the end of the ray. And so there was
nothing else I could do, and there was nothing else
(36:46):
the Chamberlains could do.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
As words spread on the Northern Territory government's decision, a
young English backpacker named David Brett passed through customs at
Sydney Airport. The young man from Kent, who had a
curiosity with witchcraft and sorcery, had one destination in.
Speaker 13 (37:07):
Mind airs rock uloeroo.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
If you think you know the Chamberlain's story, you don't
until next week. I'd like to say thanks to Nicky
Simon and Stephen who helped create this episode, and a
shout out to Chris Reason, Paul White, Linda Scott, David
Jones and Mike Smithson. And thanks to you for listening.
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