November 21, 2019 • 40 mins
Lindy is charged with murder. She awaits a verdict.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode is not suitable for children to listen to
or overhear. It may contain course language, adult themes, and
graphic descriptions. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised
that the following program may contain the names of people
who have died. A perfect storm, The true story of
(00:21):
the Chamberlains.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I think Azaria would have lasted a matter of minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory Police who
were determined to get her.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
People were saying to me, Oh, you're going there to
see that woman who killed a child.
Speaker 5 (00:36):
Bad things happen to good people.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Episode seven, The Verdict, Hello, I'm John Buck.
Speaker 6 (00:49):
Almost a year to the day from when they heard
coroner Dennis Barrett's findings which cleared them of any involvement
in their daughter's death, the Chamberlains were again walking from
a court room through a media pack to a waiting car,
but this time they were on bail and they'd have
to return in a few months to face criminal charges.
(01:13):
They didn't say a word.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
In two short.
Speaker 6 (01:17):
Years, the Chamberlains have lost their daughter to a dingo attack,
been accused of sacrificing her. They've sat through two inquests
and all the while they're innocent, and this saga is
not over, it's barely started. Stuart Tipple became the Chamberlain's
(01:40):
longest serving lawyer.
Speaker 7 (01:43):
I ever received a call from the lady I'd never
heard of or spoken to before, who identified herself as
a biologist working at Westmeat Hospital, and she said, look,
there are things that are being reported that don't add up.
Speaker 6 (01:57):
Something about the test results present by forensic biologist Joy
Cool didn't ring true for the late Patricia Fleming.
Speaker 7 (02:06):
If this missus Cole has carried out these tests, she
would have work notes. And what I suggest you do
is get a copy of those work notes so that
we can have a look at it and see whether
she's followed correct procedures.
Speaker 6 (02:21):
Triple organized to meet with missus Coole and make a
copy of her work notes.
Speaker 7 (02:26):
And I was standing next to her at the photocopia
when she copied them, so I was quite sure that
I had an accurate copy and watched very carefully if
she copied them. They were the work notes that I
later came back to Sydney with and they were like
hieroglyphics to me. And I met with this Patricia Fleming.
(02:48):
What we found was disturbing in the samples that Joeykool
tested from the under dash spray. The work notes did
not recall that she had used proper controls, and if
you don't use proper controls, then you can't rely on
the test results because there are some things that will
(03:11):
give a positive to everything.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
There'd been one critical piece of evidence in the second
inquest that the Chamberlain's defense team had been unable to
disprove something called the underdash spray. It was a theory
supported by Cool's tests that blood from Azaria Chamberlain's neck
had sprayed up under the dashboard of the family car
(03:36):
after her mother had decapitated her.
Speaker 7 (03:41):
And so really the test that she performed on the
underdash spray should never have been introduced into evidence, and
we were fairly confident that they would be able to
be struck out at the trial. But we had to
get an expert that could be accepted as an expert
(04:01):
by the court and convince the jury that what her
test results were wrong. And so my immediate job was
to find an expert that could look at her work
and carry out their own tests.
Speaker 6 (04:19):
Despite the breakthrough public sentiment was clearly against the Chamberlains,
and their legal team had just six months to find
the facts to turn the case around. John Phillips, Andrew
Kirkham and Peter Dean flew around Australia speaking to witnesses
who may be able to bolster the case and disprove
(04:41):
the falsehoods such as claims of a sacrifice and postpartum depression.
Stuart Tipple traveled to the UK to test Joycool's results
with forensic biologists doctor Patrick Lincoln.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
He could not detect fetal hea mcglobin from the camera
bag or from the spray. He also had found when
he was testing the reagent use by Joey Call that
it would react against adult blood in one test, but
(05:19):
he found that when he used the crossover electrophoresis test
that he didn't get any reactions with adult blood, and
on that basis he said, well, I have to back
joy Call up on those because that wasn't my experience.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
So it was a bit of a problem.
Speaker 7 (05:39):
In some ways he was good for us, in other
ways he backed up joy Call, which didn't make a
lot of sense.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
It's fair to say that the Chamberlain's had less money
and resources than the Northern Territory government, so they applied
for legal aid to pay for the preparation. While they
waited for the money, they Adventist Church loaned their money
to pay for their defense. Fellow Adventists volunteered to help
(06:08):
with everything from photocopying documents to researching forensics. Adventist Steve
Garrett approached Barry Butcher, his professor from the University of Newcastle.
Boucher was an expert on blood groups and body secretions
used in forensic studies.
Speaker 7 (06:27):
He was the professor of Biological Sciences at Newcastle University,
which is less than an hour away from where I live.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
And you know, it's strange.
Speaker 7 (06:36):
You've done this worldwide search to find experts, and you
go around the world and then suddenly you find somebody
within an hour's drive.
Speaker 6 (06:46):
I reached out to Professor Bocher for an interview. I
knew how critical the blood evidence had been in the
Chamberlain case, and I hoped he could explain it to me.
They caught the trained Sydney and I met him at
Redfern Station. I found a handsome man in his eighties,
(07:06):
well dressed, wearing a blazer and holding an old briefcase
filled with forensic documents. We started by talking about the
day that Professor Botcher received joy Cools forensic work notes.
Speaker 8 (07:21):
As was my habit, I put them on the floor
next to my desk so that I would pick them
up to take them home. And when I got home
that night, before tea, I went to my study and
opened up missus Coole's work notes, and within half an
hour I came out to my wife Moira and said
(07:44):
to her, I don't worry what's gone on, but these
are not the results you would get if they were
testing bloodstains from a baby, and specifically Azaria. What I
noticed immediately was that in a number of tests it
(08:05):
appeared that the reaction given by the extract of Chamberlain
stains had a higher concentration of fetal hemoglobin than fresh
cord blood. And that didn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
And when I look at somebody.
Speaker 8 (08:23):
Else's work to see whether I would agree with it
or not, look at the conclusions and ask the question,
if those conclusions are correct, would I expect to get
those results? And the answer in this case was a
very definite no.
Speaker 7 (08:43):
He also pointed out a number of other errors and
inconsistencies in cause evidence.
Speaker 8 (08:50):
What Cool had done was simply accepted that if she
got a positive result to the test for fetal hema globin,
that the blood had come from an infant. Before the trial,
I had tested my own blood with the German test
(09:12):
solution against fetal hemoglobin, and my blood reacted, and I'm
neither a fetus nor a newborn. What might have been
happening was that there was some contaminant in the vehicle
which was giving false positives.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
Botcher's suspicions were right. It was discovered later, much later,
that almost every surface in the Chamberlain's car was covered
with copper oxide dust, common to any vehicle parked in
the mining town of Mount Isa, the town where the
Chamberlains had lived. Cool's tests had mistaken dust for blood,
(09:54):
with terrible consequences. In the meantime, the defence team had
a witness to counter missus Coole's test results.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
On a wonder one basis.
Speaker 7 (10:07):
He was just terrific, and we thought, well, here we
have the witness. This man's going to be the perfect foil,
and who couldn't believe him?
Speaker 6 (10:19):
Stuart Tipple's run of good luck continued.
Speaker 7 (10:23):
So while we're preparing for the trial. I get contacted
by mister Webber, who was a friend of mister Chamberlain's
and had a similar Tirana motor vehicle. Hearing about the
underdash spray, he by chance had a look under his
underdash and saw a spray pattern almost identical to the
(10:47):
one that had been found in the Chamberlain's car. So
I arranged for that to be cut out of his
car and I sent it down to Melbourne to Andrew
Kirkham and John Phillips, the QC that we're now brief
for the trial, and they made arrangements to go to
(11:09):
General Motors, take the plate with a spray pattern and
see if General Motors could explain what the spray pattern was.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
If the spray pattern was something other than blood, it
would be a major break for the defense. It would
call into doubt the prosecution's gruesome story of Azaria's decapitation
in the car. And then something happened that no one expected.
Speaker 7 (11:41):
Lindy indicate to me that she and Michael would really
like to have another child, and when would the trial
likely to be and would that be a problem. Well,
at that time we thought the trial was probably going
to be in April, so I said, well, that's not
a problem because you know it's only a couple of
(12:04):
months away. So what happened, of course, was Lindy did
fall pregnant, and we then made an application to adjourn
the case because April just was too soon and we
wanted it in August, but the Crown wanted to put
it off later, I think, to fit in with Professor
(12:28):
Cameron's travel itinery, and so, sadly for Lindy, by the
time the trial came around, everybody knew that she was pregnant,
and of course that became very much a talking point.
You had those that said, well she's got pregnant to
garner sympathy. You had the other people saying, well, this
(12:49):
is the ultimate test of faith.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
You know that she.
Speaker 7 (12:53):
Believes in her own innocence and why shouldn't she. But
I think on the balance of things, the pregnancy worked
against her.
Speaker 6 (13:03):
The chamberlains had been pushed off the nightly news by
politics and a supermarket bomber.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Twenty eight year old McCarty arrived at court under heavy
police guard.
Speaker 6 (13:13):
Gregory McCarty, better known as the Woolworth's bomber, was caught
by police by police.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
McCarty was returned to prison and will reappear for final
sentence in three weeks. Paul White Seven National News.
Speaker 5 (13:27):
So how did you find me?
Speaker 9 (13:28):
I'm meant to ask.
Speaker 6 (13:29):
Almost given up on finding you, because it's easy to find.
Speaker 9 (13:32):
Someone like Paul White's pretty hard to find.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
Paul White had worked in radio around Australia, but was
reporting for Independent Radio News in London when Azaria Chamberlain disappeared,
and during the two inquests. He was now back in
Sydney at seven News. Paul White was chosen to cover
the Chamberlain trial.
Speaker 9 (13:54):
Vincent Smith was news director. Vincent said, you don't know
anything about the case. You're not part of the first
and second in quests. Just go along and report it straight.
When I got there, because I hadn't had any particular history,
I found that there were all these factions. The guys
from nine and ten, the two TV guys were convinced
she was innocent. A lot of the press thought she
(14:17):
was guilty.
Speaker 6 (14:18):
Malcolm Brown was not part of the media pack and
he didn't agree with his fellow newspaper colleagues on the
Chamberlain's guilt.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Before the trial, Michael asked me to go on a
job with him and his brother. Just during that run
along the Todd River in the earliers of the morning
and seeing Michael, everything was against this tiney ittle Haposcalpel
and I thought that if a state puts that much
effort in to prove someone's guilty, then you put a
look at the other side and see if they're innocent.
Speaker 6 (14:48):
Around this time, the defense lawyers Kirkam and Phillips received
a response from GM about the spray on the bracket
from the Chamberlain's car.
Speaker 7 (14:58):
Someone from General Matis ranglom, we can't help you. And sadly,
you know, that was something that happened a number of
times where we approached people that we thought probably could
and should have helped us, and people just don't want
to get involved sometimes or people don't know where to go.
(15:19):
And looking back, you know that that was a big blow,
and as it turned out, I think more probably could.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
And should have been done about it.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
Before we continue, I need to share something with you now.
You'll probably remember last week that I reached out to
the two main investigating officers on the Chamberlain case, and
I have to be honest, I never expected a response
of any.
Speaker 10 (15:49):
Kind color you're speaking.
Speaker 6 (15:53):
I just got a phone call from Graham Childwood. I'll
be recording that interview next week and he wants to talk.
In September nineteen eighty two, the Chamberlain Supreme Court trial
began in Darwin under the watch of Judge James muh Had.
He was well aware of the intense public interest in
the case. He told the press that quote, possibly the
(16:18):
publicity has been without precedent in our lifetime.
Speaker 7 (16:25):
On the first day of the trial, I suppose you're
always somewhat nervous, but in other ways we're really keen
to get it on, and we were confident that there
was going to be at least a reasonable doubt with
the evidence that we had, and I think it was
a great relief to the Chamberlains that suddenly they were
(16:48):
going to be able to have their story for a cost.
But of course, when you go into that town and
confronted with people wearing T shirts, you realize that this
is not going to be easy.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
There was an strong bias I felt against the chambers
but that was reflected in the entire Northern Tourtory community
in particular day and on the very first day of
the trial, there were people with t shirts saying that
Dingo is innocent, parading themselves outside the court.
Speaker 11 (17:22):
Today's proceedings began with a stern warning from the judge.
It was aimed at onlookers outside the court, who, just
as Mule had referred to, as fools.
Speaker 6 (17:30):
The first task was to select twelve jurors from a
pool of around one hundred and sixty five. Thirty names
were called before the jury was chosen. Nine men and
three women were selected to make sense of perhaps the
most complex murder trial yet held in Australia.
Speaker 12 (17:51):
How juris a scene is the art through the eyes
of the person seeing them, and I think you have
to look at juris objectively.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
Federal Circuit Court Judge Kenneth Rafael.
Speaker 12 (18:04):
My personal view, and it's only a personal view, is
the curious generally get it right. They don't always get
it right, but generally speaking, they do get it right,
and it's a very great good safeguard.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Opening the Crown case, the senior prosecutor Ian Barker QC
labeled the Dingo's story a fanciful lie.
Speaker 6 (18:30):
The Crown believed it could prove beyond reasonable doubt that
Lindy Chamberlain murdered her child and then falsely asserted that
the dead child had been taken from the tent by
a dingo. It would maintain that the dingo's story was
a fanciful lie, calculated to conceal the truth. The Crown
(18:52):
would submit that the discovery of Azaria's blood in the
family car destroyed the dingo attack explanation given the Chamberlain's
It added that Michael Chamberlain actively and knowingly assisted his
wife to dispose of the child's body and to mislead
the police about the circumstances of the child's disappearance. Journalist
(19:15):
Paul White recalls the crown prosecutor Ian Barker QC.
Speaker 9 (19:21):
I've always been of the view that Ian Barker was
able to engage the jury in a so much better way,
both as a former territorian and also he was a
more rough and tumbled sort of character. He was very funny,
very dry. I can remember the jury and the court
(19:43):
and the media room falling about laughing at Barker's ridiculing
of the Dingo story. Oh, he made these grand, sweeping
comments about it. Must have been a very dexterous dingo.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
Witness Sally Shaw saw a different Barker.
Speaker 13 (20:00):
When you're presenting in front of a jury, it's a
whole ball game. For instance, Barker tried to say things
in a low, quiet voice when he was near me
to try and get me look silly, you know, like
it's this shawmanship that takes place in a court room.
Speaker 9 (20:17):
The whole evidence of Sally was ignored almost from minute one.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Barker was in his element. He went one stage he said, well,
you know, and I know that a dingo wouldn't think
the baby hadn't been in at the East Alligator River.
Then it was Eliza crocodile to take the baby. We
would believe that. But he was talking speaking of there
was a fellow Territorian. He had spent time in the
(20:45):
Northern He'd been solicited to General, he had been very
closely to the Kakada National Park. He spoke there was
fellow Territorians.
Speaker 9 (20:54):
I just think he was very in the end, he
was just doing a professional job. I didn't know a
bit about it because my uncle was a QC in
Melbourne at the time and he took a very dim
view of the way the Crown was running its case.
In that it was theatrical. But on the other hand,
Phillips and Kirkham were very, very straight and just not
(21:17):
able to engage with the jury. That was my impression.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
After several hours of questioning this afternoon, mister Barker put
directly to missus Chamberlain that she had taken Azaria to
the front seat of the family car and cut her
daughter's throat. Mister Barker said a spray of Azaria's blood
had gone up under the dashboard, and that.
Speaker 6 (21:36):
More the way Barker conducts himself in the court room,
does it become a factor?
Speaker 12 (21:42):
Oh, I don't think that actually, that Barker was particularly theatrical.
You know, it's a human trait to want to win.
So although in strict legal terms it shouldn't be about
winning and losing for the crown, all the crowd should
be doing is presenting the case and letting the jury
(22:03):
make up its mind. The fact is that because of
people's vanity and people want to win the case, so
they will adopt whatever tactics they believer helpful to produce
that result.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
We need to take a quick break and we'll return
to a perfect storm in just a moment. Can we
just talk about your witnesses and who was good and who.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
Was bad as a witness in the trial.
Speaker 7 (22:33):
Yes, witnesses as always the worst thing for you as
a defense counsel when your witness has been cross examined.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
From the outset, it was clear that the Dingo trial
would be a battle between the scientists.
Speaker 8 (22:48):
I knew when I went into went to Darwin that
there would be pressure put upon me.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Professor Barry Botcher, a biologist from the Universe of Newcastle,
disputed prosecution evidence that stains found in the Chamberlain's car will.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
Be was so impressed from the moment that I met him.
I thought, well, here's a man of really superior intelligence
that came up with answers that nobody else had come
up with.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Botcher was a brilliant fellow, but he is delivering his
style and the level intellectual level of which he spoke
went above the heads of the jury.
Speaker 8 (23:28):
And it was agreed during my testimony that if it
could be shown that the test solution would react with
two compounds and not just with fetal hemoglobin, that you
couldn't be sure that you had detected fetal hemoglobin and
(23:48):
that the stains were as claimed of Azaria's blood.
Speaker 9 (23:55):
I don't think there's any doubt that in hindsight the
defense scientists were right, but broadly they were either not
good witnesses or Barker tare them apart.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Under searching cross examination, Professor Botcher said, although not a
forensic biologist, he feels qualified to criticize evidence that blood
found in the Chamberlain's cart was from a baby on it.
Speaker 7 (24:17):
I think part of it was that he knew how
important he was to our case and he just unfortunately
wasn't a good witness.
Speaker 8 (24:26):
I considered that I had the scientific evidence that would
show that missus Coole's results were not those so that
could have been given by Azaria, and that I had
(24:47):
the test solution reacting with two compounds, not just one.
Speaker 7 (24:52):
And sometimes that happens, and you never really know what
they're going to be like.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Until the thrown end of the cauldron.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
And part of the problem is that he perspires profusely.
Speaker 12 (25:06):
There was.
Speaker 8 (25:08):
A lot of pressure and I felt it.
Speaker 7 (25:10):
He's in the box and he's perspiring, and he's wiping
his hands with his handkerchief and his bra.
Speaker 8 (25:16):
And in fact, after my first day in the witness box,
I looked down at my shoes and found there were
crystals of salt on the outside of my shoes. I
had sweated so much in the witness box.
Speaker 6 (25:33):
While Butcher's witness performance was not what the defense had
hoped for, you'll hear an amazing story of discovery from
Professor Botcher later in the podcast.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
After several hours of intricate forensic detail, trial, Judge Justice
Muir had told the jury they were not expected to
evaluate the scientific evidence alone.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Expert but this is the defense got and were not
used to the court environment, and spoke in a rather arpity,
rather intellectually arrogant way, which that was the impression, and
that was an off putting thing to the jury. The
Crown got people who worked in forensic laboratories and that
they were expert witnesses. They were used to the courtroom environment.
Speaker 11 (26:19):
Missus Coole illustrated her detailed evidence with slides explaining the scientific.
Speaker 13 (26:23):
Evidence even though the true scientific evidence was there and
the false scientific evidence there. The false scientific evidence was
presented by someone who was presenting and putting on a show,
whereas the died in the wall scientists who really knew
his business and knew what he was talking about had
(26:45):
he been given a lecture in a university, you might
have had people listening to him. But giving that lecture
in a courtroom, you know that. I'm sure the jury
just tuned out.
Speaker 9 (26:56):
There were some of the world's best forensic experts allegedly saying, oh, well,
she's got you this fetal blood here, and there's scissors
and cut marks, and they were clearly very powerful.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Professor Cameron told the court he believes Azaria was killed
by an incised wound to the throat. He said there
was evidence to suggest the cutting.
Speaker 13 (27:18):
It well, looking back on it, I mean to me
the scientific evidence should have gone before a board of
scientists and then some decisions reached as to what should
be presented. So I guess in a way science failed
(27:39):
in a way, didn't it.
Speaker 7 (27:40):
Missus Corky was able to put things in a black
and white manner and was very emphatic, and everybody when
they saw her was impressed with her evidence and was
impressed to think, well this this lady knows what she's doing.
And if she says there's feetal blood in the car,
you better.
Speaker 6 (28:01):
Ian Barker, QC reinforced to the jury that joy Cool
had twenty two positive results showing the blood of a
child on evidence given to her by the Operation Ochre Detectives.
Dr Baxter, then Senior forensic Biologist of the New South
Wales Health Commission, checked it and agreed twenty two times,
(28:22):
and mister Culliford, Deputy Director of the Metropolitan Police Lab
in London, also agreed twenty two times, but Culliford did
so without seeing the actual tests which Coole had destroyed.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Missus Chamberlain was then called to the witness box to
begin her evidence. As she was examining her daughter's bloodstained jumpsuit,
two of the three women jurors began to weep. At
this point, the jury foreman rose to his feet, and
Missus Chamberlain also appeared distressed. Trial Judge Justice Murehead adjourned
the court immediately.
Speaker 7 (29:02):
Lindy, I think there's always a good witness. She's got
a terrific memory and that detail she was able to recall,
so I think that anybody hearing and seeing Lindy would
find her a believable witness. But the problem that she
had was that by the time she came to give evidence,
(29:24):
the jury had already heard the evidence about this underdash spray,
so she couldn't come up with an explanation for that.
And if you believe that, as there's no other reason
why you shouldn't, you would have this graphic picture of
this woman in the witness box who'd actually sat on
the front seat of the car, slashed a baby's throat
(29:46):
and put the body in a camera back.
Speaker 9 (29:50):
You know, the owners of proof was reversed. She had
to prove the dingo ha dunit.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
I mean, that was.
Speaker 9 (29:55):
Clearly a problem. They called Michael as the last witness,
and he was a terrible witness. So the last impression
the jury had was of Michael Chamberlain. Barker just tore
him apart.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Mister Barker put it to mister Chamberlain that his wife
had lied to the police, the public, the coronor, and
to this jury. Mister Barker said, you well know that
she's lying, and that you too.
Speaker 7 (30:18):
I think there's no doubt that the worst witness was Michael,
and that wasn't a surprise because we'd seen that before.
And the problem with Michael is I think he just
tried so hard to make sure he was being fair
and telling the truth, but it just did not come
(30:39):
across that well, and I think that that was the
reason why a lot of people just didn't find him
convincing in the box.
Speaker 11 (30:49):
The emotional impact of the trial appears to be having
an effect on seven months pregnant missus Lindy Chamberlain and
her pastor husband Michael, after crying openly in court.
Speaker 6 (30:59):
Yes Linda Scott covered the first weeks of the trial
for seven years.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Lindy at the inquest I think was a grieving mother.
Her eyes give her away. I believe that she was
in a state of shock and she was trying to
be steely and resolved and get through it. When I
saw at the trial, I was really shocked. Her eyes
were dark, they were almost dead. There was anger burning
(31:28):
in them. That's why some people, I think, interpreted her
motives as bad motives and murderer's eyes.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
That's what they look like.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
They were just angry. And the fact that she was
so pregnant in the trial it was and the outfits
she wore, without trying to sound bitchy about it, they
were terrible. Her clothes were terrible, and every day she
had a different outfit on it. And I think she
was a keen soler and I think she'd made them herself.
It was just it was very very sad, you know,
(31:58):
just to see what she went through and the people
sort of calling at her or calling her terrible names
as she's going into court.
Speaker 10 (32:05):
That was very very bad. You know.
Speaker 9 (32:08):
Lindy was the religion was considered weird. Lindy was considered,
you know, very odd in terms of the interactions with
people and journalists, and you can't get away from the
oddness all the time. That made people think there was
something else. Clearly there wasn't. I didn't ever have a
(32:35):
view that she was definitely guilty. I certainly have a
view now she was definitely innocent.
Speaker 7 (32:40):
She is incredibly loyal, and I think that was one
of the things that was tested to the extreme throughout.
Speaker 9 (32:51):
People watching it had formed the view that she, for
whatever reason, was mentally unstable, that they are a bit weird,
they had a strange religion, and there were a lot
of important people giving evidence saying she did it, all
that the evidence pointed to her doing it. So while
(33:13):
it's you look back now and go, this is impossible
to believe, on the day in the trial, it wasn't
impossible to.
Speaker 10 (33:22):
Believe on the whole. The trial went very, very well.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
The only things that I thought could have gone better
was the fact that the real truth about the underdashperate
didn't come out. Joey Call had said something was feet
or blood when it clearly wasn't.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Can you explain why it didn't come out?
Speaker 7 (33:56):
Well, the true story didn't come out because Joey Call
this notation which saved those test results, because on the
face of a work notes, she hadn't promptly tested.
Speaker 5 (34:09):
Them, and that evidence shouldn't have gone in.
Speaker 7 (34:12):
But when she was being cross examined, she produced this
notation at the back of her work notes, which I'd
never seen before, which said that she had tested them.
I stood with her at the photocopy and saw every
page photocopied, and so I saw every page placed down
(34:32):
on the photocopy, and I saw what was on the
other page. But here you've got a Crown witness in
the middle of a trial saying, oh, yes, I did
use the proper controls, and here's a notation, and I
don't know whether that was photocopied.
Speaker 6 (34:50):
Is it your contention between the inquest and the trial
that those documents.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Have been noted?
Speaker 7 (34:57):
I think there's no doubt that that's what it happened.
Speaker 6 (35:01):
Missus Cool's forensic notes were examined by a Royal commission
almost four and a half years later. Cool had written
no reactions with animal anti serra on the reverse side
of the page, but scientists who looked at her test
results in nineteen eighty seven discovered that no animal anti
(35:22):
serum had been used at all. Justice Morling described the
entry on the reverse side of the work notes as unsatisfactory.
I think we know what that's legal speak for. So
not only had Cool mistaken copper oxide dust as blood,
(35:45):
she had altered her work notes in between the second
inquest and the trial so that they supported the Crown's case.
But in late October nineteen eighty two, the Chamberlain jury
did not know that, and the defense chose not to
tell them.
Speaker 7 (36:05):
You've got two choices. You either have to accept it
as we did, or you have to say.
Speaker 5 (36:11):
Hold on your lying. And you are not going to
do that.
Speaker 7 (36:15):
In the middle of a trial, because here you're calling
someone a liar who's been brought into it as an
expert witness.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
You know the risk, You know the Crown will be able.
Speaker 7 (36:28):
To say the defense is so desperate that they've accused
this woman of lying and fabricating evidence.
Speaker 6 (36:38):
The eyewitness testimony of Sally Shaw and other campers had
been swept aside. And not only that, where were the
voices of the indigenous trackers Barbara and Marty Daisy walk
about Kitty Collins a new a Minion Terry.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Coroner Barrett had.
Speaker 6 (36:58):
Heard from them through their formal spokesperson, Nipper went Marty,
but none of their evidence was heard by the trial jury.
And that's because what they'd seen, like Sally Shaw, contradicted
the Crown's case.
Speaker 13 (37:16):
I guess when it came to their evidence with the
Indigenous people that were involved, to me, I don't think
they were given enough credence. It was as though they
retreated as second class citizens that they weren't valued. I mean,
they were there from what I heard, they had the
(37:37):
obvious tracking skills the people that were involved, So why
didn't their evidence carry anyway? But then at that stage
when we got to the trial, they weren't giving weight
to anyone's evidence. Who was actually there on the spot
when it happened that you know, the West in the
(37:58):
tent next door Murray Haveby who found the prints up
on the hill and the imprint of the jumpsuit. I mean,
all that evidence just seemed to be negligent. Though it
didn't count. It got overrun by the scientific supposed scientific evidence.
(38:22):
I mean, a lot of it turned out to be crap,
But at that stage people were believing all the stuff
that was coming forth.
Speaker 6 (38:34):
The trial had run for thirty three days. Just as
Muirhead thanked the jury for their work and they retired
to consider a verdict. Most assumed the process would take days,
not hours.
Speaker 9 (38:49):
The view at the time was that she would be acquitted.
I was sitting at a long table with Barker unless
the message from the court was that there's a verdict.
Speaker 6 (39:00):
Returned after just six hours, and you'll hear the unanimous
verdict in the next episode. In the meantime, I wanted
to remind you that Azaria Chamberlain's matinee jacket is still
missing and no one is searching for it, nor are
they looking for the person or persons unknown that coroner
(39:20):
Barrett believed disposed of the missing baby's body. Since we
created the last episode, I've made contact with Detective Superintendent
Neil Pluman. We spoke briefly and he does not want
to tell his side of the story, and of course
I respect that. I'm still trying to make contact with
(39:40):
Detective Sergeant Graham Childwood, who led the investigation for the
Northern Territory Police. If you subscribe now, you're gett alert
the moment we released the next show. I'd like to
say thanks to Nicky, Simon and Stephen who helped create
this episode, and a shout out to ash, Bill and Nancy,
(40:02):
and thanks to you for listening.
This episode is not suitable for children to listen to
or overhear. It may contain course language, adult themes, and
graphic descriptions. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised
that the following program may contain the names of people
who have died. A perfect storm, The true story of
(00:21):
the Chamberlains.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I think Azaria would have lasted a matter of minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
There were certain people within the Northern Territory Police who
were determined to get her.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
People were saying to me, Oh, you're going there to
see that woman who killed a child.
Speaker 5 (00:36):
Bad things happen to good people.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Episode seven, The Verdict, Hello, I'm John Buck.
Speaker 6 (00:49):
Almost a year to the day from when they heard
coroner Dennis Barrett's findings which cleared them of any involvement
in their daughter's death, the Chamberlains were again walking from
a court room through a media pack to a waiting car,
but this time they were on bail and they'd have
to return in a few months to face criminal charges.
(01:13):
They didn't say a word.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
In two short.
Speaker 6 (01:17):
Years, the Chamberlains have lost their daughter to a dingo attack,
been accused of sacrificing her. They've sat through two inquests
and all the while they're innocent, and this saga is
not over, it's barely started. Stuart Tipple became the Chamberlain's
(01:40):
longest serving lawyer.
Speaker 7 (01:43):
I ever received a call from the lady I'd never
heard of or spoken to before, who identified herself as
a biologist working at Westmeat Hospital, and she said, look,
there are things that are being reported that don't add up.
Speaker 6 (01:57):
Something about the test results present by forensic biologist Joy
Cool didn't ring true for the late Patricia Fleming.
Speaker 7 (02:06):
If this missus Cole has carried out these tests, she
would have work notes. And what I suggest you do
is get a copy of those work notes so that
we can have a look at it and see whether
she's followed correct procedures.
Speaker 6 (02:21):
Triple organized to meet with missus Coole and make a
copy of her work notes.
Speaker 7 (02:26):
And I was standing next to her at the photocopia
when she copied them, so I was quite sure that
I had an accurate copy and watched very carefully if
she copied them. They were the work notes that I
later came back to Sydney with and they were like
hieroglyphics to me. And I met with this Patricia Fleming.
(02:48):
What we found was disturbing in the samples that Joeykool
tested from the under dash spray. The work notes did
not recall that she had used proper controls, and if
you don't use proper controls, then you can't rely on
the test results because there are some things that will
(03:11):
give a positive to everything.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
There'd been one critical piece of evidence in the second
inquest that the Chamberlain's defense team had been unable to
disprove something called the underdash spray. It was a theory
supported by Cool's tests that blood from Azaria Chamberlain's neck
had sprayed up under the dashboard of the family car
(03:36):
after her mother had decapitated her.
Speaker 7 (03:41):
And so really the test that she performed on the
underdash spray should never have been introduced into evidence, and
we were fairly confident that they would be able to
be struck out at the trial. But we had to
get an expert that could be accepted as an expert
(04:01):
by the court and convince the jury that what her
test results were wrong. And so my immediate job was
to find an expert that could look at her work
and carry out their own tests.
Speaker 6 (04:19):
Despite the breakthrough public sentiment was clearly against the Chamberlains,
and their legal team had just six months to find
the facts to turn the case around. John Phillips, Andrew
Kirkham and Peter Dean flew around Australia speaking to witnesses
who may be able to bolster the case and disprove
(04:41):
the falsehoods such as claims of a sacrifice and postpartum depression.
Stuart Tipple traveled to the UK to test Joycool's results
with forensic biologists doctor Patrick Lincoln.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
He could not detect fetal hea mcglobin from the camera
bag or from the spray. He also had found when
he was testing the reagent use by Joey Call that
it would react against adult blood in one test, but
(05:19):
he found that when he used the crossover electrophoresis test
that he didn't get any reactions with adult blood, and
on that basis he said, well, I have to back
joy Call up on those because that wasn't my experience.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
So it was a bit of a problem.
Speaker 7 (05:39):
In some ways he was good for us, in other
ways he backed up joy Call, which didn't make a
lot of sense.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
It's fair to say that the Chamberlain's had less money
and resources than the Northern Territory government, so they applied
for legal aid to pay for the preparation. While they
waited for the money, they Adventist Church loaned their money
to pay for their defense. Fellow Adventists volunteered to help
(06:08):
with everything from photocopying documents to researching forensics. Adventist Steve
Garrett approached Barry Butcher, his professor from the University of Newcastle.
Boucher was an expert on blood groups and body secretions
used in forensic studies.
Speaker 7 (06:27):
He was the professor of Biological Sciences at Newcastle University,
which is less than an hour away from where I live.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
And you know, it's strange.
Speaker 7 (06:36):
You've done this worldwide search to find experts, and you
go around the world and then suddenly you find somebody
within an hour's drive.
Speaker 6 (06:46):
I reached out to Professor Bocher for an interview. I
knew how critical the blood evidence had been in the
Chamberlain case, and I hoped he could explain it to me.
They caught the trained Sydney and I met him at
Redfern Station. I found a handsome man in his eighties,
(07:06):
well dressed, wearing a blazer and holding an old briefcase
filled with forensic documents. We started by talking about the
day that Professor Botcher received joy Cools forensic work notes.
Speaker 8 (07:21):
As was my habit, I put them on the floor
next to my desk so that I would pick them
up to take them home. And when I got home
that night, before tea, I went to my study and
opened up missus Coole's work notes, and within half an
hour I came out to my wife Moira and said
(07:44):
to her, I don't worry what's gone on, but these
are not the results you would get if they were
testing bloodstains from a baby, and specifically Azaria. What I
noticed immediately was that in a number of tests it
(08:05):
appeared that the reaction given by the extract of Chamberlain
stains had a higher concentration of fetal hemoglobin than fresh
cord blood. And that didn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
And when I look at somebody.
Speaker 8 (08:23):
Else's work to see whether I would agree with it
or not, look at the conclusions and ask the question,
if those conclusions are correct, would I expect to get
those results? And the answer in this case was a
very definite no.
Speaker 7 (08:43):
He also pointed out a number of other errors and
inconsistencies in cause evidence.
Speaker 8 (08:50):
What Cool had done was simply accepted that if she
got a positive result to the test for fetal hema globin,
that the blood had come from an infant. Before the trial,
I had tested my own blood with the German test
(09:12):
solution against fetal hemoglobin, and my blood reacted, and I'm
neither a fetus nor a newborn. What might have been
happening was that there was some contaminant in the vehicle
which was giving false positives.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
Botcher's suspicions were right. It was discovered later, much later,
that almost every surface in the Chamberlain's car was covered
with copper oxide dust, common to any vehicle parked in
the mining town of Mount Isa, the town where the
Chamberlains had lived. Cool's tests had mistaken dust for blood,
(09:54):
with terrible consequences. In the meantime, the defence team had
a witness to counter missus Coole's test results.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
On a wonder one basis.
Speaker 7 (10:07):
He was just terrific, and we thought, well, here we
have the witness. This man's going to be the perfect foil,
and who couldn't believe him?
Speaker 6 (10:19):
Stuart Tipple's run of good luck continued.
Speaker 7 (10:23):
So while we're preparing for the trial. I get contacted
by mister Webber, who was a friend of mister Chamberlain's
and had a similar Tirana motor vehicle. Hearing about the
underdash spray, he by chance had a look under his
underdash and saw a spray pattern almost identical to the
(10:47):
one that had been found in the Chamberlain's car. So
I arranged for that to be cut out of his
car and I sent it down to Melbourne to Andrew
Kirkham and John Phillips, the QC that we're now brief
for the trial, and they made arrangements to go to
(11:09):
General Motors, take the plate with a spray pattern and
see if General Motors could explain what the spray pattern was.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
If the spray pattern was something other than blood, it
would be a major break for the defense. It would
call into doubt the prosecution's gruesome story of Azaria's decapitation
in the car. And then something happened that no one expected.
Speaker 7 (11:41):
Lindy indicate to me that she and Michael would really
like to have another child, and when would the trial
likely to be and would that be a problem. Well,
at that time we thought the trial was probably going
to be in April, so I said, well, that's not
a problem because you know it's only a couple of
(12:04):
months away. So what happened, of course, was Lindy did
fall pregnant, and we then made an application to adjourn
the case because April just was too soon and we
wanted it in August, but the Crown wanted to put
it off later, I think, to fit in with Professor
(12:28):
Cameron's travel itinery, and so, sadly for Lindy, by the
time the trial came around, everybody knew that she was pregnant,
and of course that became very much a talking point.
You had those that said, well she's got pregnant to
garner sympathy. You had the other people saying, well, this
(12:49):
is the ultimate test of faith.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
You know that she.
Speaker 7 (12:53):
Believes in her own innocence and why shouldn't she. But
I think on the balance of things, the pregnancy worked
against her.
Speaker 6 (13:03):
The chamberlains had been pushed off the nightly news by
politics and a supermarket bomber.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Twenty eight year old McCarty arrived at court under heavy
police guard.
Speaker 6 (13:13):
Gregory McCarty, better known as the Woolworth's bomber, was caught
by police by police.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
McCarty was returned to prison and will reappear for final
sentence in three weeks. Paul White Seven National News.
Speaker 5 (13:27):
So how did you find me?
Speaker 9 (13:28):
I'm meant to ask.
Speaker 6 (13:29):
Almost given up on finding you, because it's easy to find.
Speaker 9 (13:32):
Someone like Paul White's pretty hard to find.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
Paul White had worked in radio around Australia, but was
reporting for Independent Radio News in London when Azaria Chamberlain disappeared,
and during the two inquests. He was now back in
Sydney at seven News. Paul White was chosen to cover
the Chamberlain trial.
Speaker 9 (13:54):
Vincent Smith was news director. Vincent said, you don't know
anything about the case. You're not part of the first
and second in quests. Just go along and report it straight.
When I got there, because I hadn't had any particular history,
I found that there were all these factions. The guys
from nine and ten, the two TV guys were convinced
she was innocent. A lot of the press thought she
(14:17):
was guilty.
Speaker 6 (14:18):
Malcolm Brown was not part of the media pack and
he didn't agree with his fellow newspaper colleagues on the
Chamberlain's guilt.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Before the trial, Michael asked me to go on a
job with him and his brother. Just during that run
along the Todd River in the earliers of the morning
and seeing Michael, everything was against this tiney ittle Haposcalpel
and I thought that if a state puts that much
effort in to prove someone's guilty, then you put a
look at the other side and see if they're innocent.
Speaker 6 (14:48):
Around this time, the defense lawyers Kirkam and Phillips received
a response from GM about the spray on the bracket
from the Chamberlain's car.
Speaker 7 (14:58):
Someone from General Matis ranglom, we can't help you. And sadly,
you know, that was something that happened a number of
times where we approached people that we thought probably could
and should have helped us, and people just don't want
to get involved sometimes or people don't know where to go.
(15:19):
And looking back, you know that that was a big blow,
and as it turned out, I think more probably could.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
And should have been done about it.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
Before we continue, I need to share something with you now.
You'll probably remember last week that I reached out to
the two main investigating officers on the Chamberlain case, and
I have to be honest, I never expected a response
of any.
Speaker 10 (15:49):
Kind color you're speaking.
Speaker 6 (15:53):
I just got a phone call from Graham Childwood. I'll
be recording that interview next week and he wants to talk.
In September nineteen eighty two, the Chamberlain Supreme Court trial
began in Darwin under the watch of Judge James muh Had.
He was well aware of the intense public interest in
the case. He told the press that quote, possibly the
(16:18):
publicity has been without precedent in our lifetime.
Speaker 7 (16:25):
On the first day of the trial, I suppose you're
always somewhat nervous, but in other ways we're really keen
to get it on, and we were confident that there
was going to be at least a reasonable doubt with
the evidence that we had, and I think it was
a great relief to the Chamberlains that suddenly they were
(16:48):
going to be able to have their story for a cost.
But of course, when you go into that town and
confronted with people wearing T shirts, you realize that this
is not going to be easy.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
There was an strong bias I felt against the chambers
but that was reflected in the entire Northern Tourtory community
in particular day and on the very first day of
the trial, there were people with t shirts saying that
Dingo is innocent, parading themselves outside the court.
Speaker 11 (17:22):
Today's proceedings began with a stern warning from the judge.
It was aimed at onlookers outside the court, who, just
as Mule had referred to, as fools.
Speaker 6 (17:30):
The first task was to select twelve jurors from a
pool of around one hundred and sixty five. Thirty names
were called before the jury was chosen. Nine men and
three women were selected to make sense of perhaps the
most complex murder trial yet held in Australia.
Speaker 12 (17:51):
How juris a scene is the art through the eyes
of the person seeing them, and I think you have
to look at juris objectively.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
Federal Circuit Court Judge Kenneth Rafael.
Speaker 12 (18:04):
My personal view, and it's only a personal view, is
the curious generally get it right. They don't always get
it right, but generally speaking, they do get it right,
and it's a very great good safeguard.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Opening the Crown case, the senior prosecutor Ian Barker QC
labeled the Dingo's story a fanciful lie.
Speaker 6 (18:30):
The Crown believed it could prove beyond reasonable doubt that
Lindy Chamberlain murdered her child and then falsely asserted that
the dead child had been taken from the tent by
a dingo. It would maintain that the dingo's story was
a fanciful lie, calculated to conceal the truth. The Crown
(18:52):
would submit that the discovery of Azaria's blood in the
family car destroyed the dingo attack explanation given the Chamberlain's
It added that Michael Chamberlain actively and knowingly assisted his
wife to dispose of the child's body and to mislead
the police about the circumstances of the child's disappearance. Journalist
(19:15):
Paul White recalls the crown prosecutor Ian Barker QC.
Speaker 9 (19:21):
I've always been of the view that Ian Barker was
able to engage the jury in a so much better way,
both as a former territorian and also he was a
more rough and tumbled sort of character. He was very funny,
very dry. I can remember the jury and the court
(19:43):
and the media room falling about laughing at Barker's ridiculing
of the Dingo story. Oh, he made these grand, sweeping
comments about it. Must have been a very dexterous dingo.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
Witness Sally Shaw saw a different Barker.
Speaker 13 (20:00):
When you're presenting in front of a jury, it's a
whole ball game. For instance, Barker tried to say things
in a low, quiet voice when he was near me
to try and get me look silly, you know, like
it's this shawmanship that takes place in a court room.
Speaker 9 (20:17):
The whole evidence of Sally was ignored almost from minute one.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Barker was in his element. He went one stage he said, well,
you know, and I know that a dingo wouldn't think
the baby hadn't been in at the East Alligator River.
Then it was Eliza crocodile to take the baby. We
would believe that. But he was talking speaking of there
was a fellow Territorian. He had spent time in the
(20:45):
Northern He'd been solicited to General, he had been very
closely to the Kakada National Park. He spoke there was
fellow Territorians.
Speaker 9 (20:54):
I just think he was very in the end, he
was just doing a professional job. I didn't know a
bit about it because my uncle was a QC in
Melbourne at the time and he took a very dim
view of the way the Crown was running its case.
In that it was theatrical. But on the other hand,
Phillips and Kirkham were very, very straight and just not
(21:17):
able to engage with the jury. That was my impression.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
After several hours of questioning this afternoon, mister Barker put
directly to missus Chamberlain that she had taken Azaria to
the front seat of the family car and cut her
daughter's throat. Mister Barker said a spray of Azaria's blood
had gone up under the dashboard, and that.
Speaker 6 (21:36):
More the way Barker conducts himself in the court room,
does it become a factor?
Speaker 12 (21:42):
Oh, I don't think that actually, that Barker was particularly theatrical.
You know, it's a human trait to want to win.
So although in strict legal terms it shouldn't be about
winning and losing for the crown, all the crowd should
be doing is presenting the case and letting the jury
(22:03):
make up its mind. The fact is that because of
people's vanity and people want to win the case, so
they will adopt whatever tactics they believer helpful to produce
that result.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
We need to take a quick break and we'll return
to a perfect storm in just a moment. Can we
just talk about your witnesses and who was good and who.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
Was bad as a witness in the trial.
Speaker 7 (22:33):
Yes, witnesses as always the worst thing for you as
a defense counsel when your witness has been cross examined.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
From the outset, it was clear that the Dingo trial
would be a battle between the scientists.
Speaker 8 (22:48):
I knew when I went into went to Darwin that
there would be pressure put upon me.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Professor Barry Botcher, a biologist from the Universe of Newcastle,
disputed prosecution evidence that stains found in the Chamberlain's car will.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
Be was so impressed from the moment that I met him.
I thought, well, here's a man of really superior intelligence
that came up with answers that nobody else had come
up with.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Botcher was a brilliant fellow, but he is delivering his
style and the level intellectual level of which he spoke
went above the heads of the jury.
Speaker 8 (23:28):
And it was agreed during my testimony that if it
could be shown that the test solution would react with
two compounds and not just with fetal hemoglobin, that you
couldn't be sure that you had detected fetal hemoglobin and
(23:48):
that the stains were as claimed of Azaria's blood.
Speaker 9 (23:55):
I don't think there's any doubt that in hindsight the
defense scientists were right, but broadly they were either not
good witnesses or Barker tare them apart.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Under searching cross examination, Professor Botcher said, although not a
forensic biologist, he feels qualified to criticize evidence that blood
found in the Chamberlain's cart was from a baby on it.
Speaker 7 (24:17):
I think part of it was that he knew how
important he was to our case and he just unfortunately
wasn't a good witness.
Speaker 8 (24:26):
I considered that I had the scientific evidence that would
show that missus Coole's results were not those so that
could have been given by Azaria, and that I had
(24:47):
the test solution reacting with two compounds, not just one.
Speaker 7 (24:52):
And sometimes that happens, and you never really know what
they're going to be like.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Until the thrown end of the cauldron.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
And part of the problem is that he perspires profusely.
Speaker 12 (25:06):
There was.
Speaker 8 (25:08):
A lot of pressure and I felt it.
Speaker 7 (25:10):
He's in the box and he's perspiring, and he's wiping
his hands with his handkerchief and his bra.
Speaker 8 (25:16):
And in fact, after my first day in the witness box,
I looked down at my shoes and found there were
crystals of salt on the outside of my shoes. I
had sweated so much in the witness box.
Speaker 6 (25:33):
While Butcher's witness performance was not what the defense had
hoped for, you'll hear an amazing story of discovery from
Professor Botcher later in the podcast.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
After several hours of intricate forensic detail, trial, Judge Justice
Muir had told the jury they were not expected to
evaluate the scientific evidence alone.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Expert but this is the defense got and were not
used to the court environment, and spoke in a rather arpity,
rather intellectually arrogant way, which that was the impression, and
that was an off putting thing to the jury. The
Crown got people who worked in forensic laboratories and that
they were expert witnesses. They were used to the courtroom environment.
Speaker 11 (26:19):
Missus Coole illustrated her detailed evidence with slides explaining the scientific.
Speaker 13 (26:23):
Evidence even though the true scientific evidence was there and
the false scientific evidence there. The false scientific evidence was
presented by someone who was presenting and putting on a show,
whereas the died in the wall scientists who really knew
his business and knew what he was talking about had
(26:45):
he been given a lecture in a university, you might
have had people listening to him. But giving that lecture
in a courtroom, you know that. I'm sure the jury
just tuned out.
Speaker 9 (26:56):
There were some of the world's best forensic experts allegedly saying, oh, well,
she's got you this fetal blood here, and there's scissors
and cut marks, and they were clearly very powerful.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Professor Cameron told the court he believes Azaria was killed
by an incised wound to the throat. He said there
was evidence to suggest the cutting.
Speaker 13 (27:18):
It well, looking back on it, I mean to me
the scientific evidence should have gone before a board of
scientists and then some decisions reached as to what should
be presented. So I guess in a way science failed
(27:39):
in a way, didn't it.
Speaker 7 (27:40):
Missus Corky was able to put things in a black
and white manner and was very emphatic, and everybody when
they saw her was impressed with her evidence and was
impressed to think, well this this lady knows what she's doing.
And if she says there's feetal blood in the car,
you better.
Speaker 6 (28:01):
Ian Barker, QC reinforced to the jury that joy Cool
had twenty two positive results showing the blood of a
child on evidence given to her by the Operation Ochre Detectives.
Dr Baxter, then Senior forensic Biologist of the New South
Wales Health Commission, checked it and agreed twenty two times,
(28:22):
and mister Culliford, Deputy Director of the Metropolitan Police Lab
in London, also agreed twenty two times, but Culliford did
so without seeing the actual tests which Coole had destroyed.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Missus Chamberlain was then called to the witness box to
begin her evidence. As she was examining her daughter's bloodstained jumpsuit,
two of the three women jurors began to weep. At
this point, the jury foreman rose to his feet, and
Missus Chamberlain also appeared distressed. Trial Judge Justice Murehead adjourned
the court immediately.
Speaker 7 (29:02):
Lindy, I think there's always a good witness. She's got
a terrific memory and that detail she was able to recall,
so I think that anybody hearing and seeing Lindy would
find her a believable witness. But the problem that she
had was that by the time she came to give evidence,
(29:24):
the jury had already heard the evidence about this underdash spray,
so she couldn't come up with an explanation for that.
And if you believe that, as there's no other reason
why you shouldn't, you would have this graphic picture of
this woman in the witness box who'd actually sat on
the front seat of the car, slashed a baby's throat
(29:46):
and put the body in a camera back.
Speaker 9 (29:50):
You know, the owners of proof was reversed. She had
to prove the dingo ha dunit.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
I mean, that was.
Speaker 9 (29:55):
Clearly a problem. They called Michael as the last witness,
and he was a terrible witness. So the last impression
the jury had was of Michael Chamberlain. Barker just tore
him apart.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Mister Barker put it to mister Chamberlain that his wife
had lied to the police, the public, the coronor, and
to this jury. Mister Barker said, you well know that
she's lying, and that you too.
Speaker 7 (30:18):
I think there's no doubt that the worst witness was Michael,
and that wasn't a surprise because we'd seen that before.
And the problem with Michael is I think he just
tried so hard to make sure he was being fair
and telling the truth, but it just did not come
(30:39):
across that well, and I think that that was the
reason why a lot of people just didn't find him
convincing in the box.
Speaker 11 (30:49):
The emotional impact of the trial appears to be having
an effect on seven months pregnant missus Lindy Chamberlain and
her pastor husband Michael, after crying openly in court.
Speaker 6 (30:59):
Yes Linda Scott covered the first weeks of the trial
for seven years.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Lindy at the inquest I think was a grieving mother.
Her eyes give her away. I believe that she was
in a state of shock and she was trying to
be steely and resolved and get through it. When I
saw at the trial, I was really shocked. Her eyes
were dark, they were almost dead. There was anger burning
(31:28):
in them. That's why some people, I think, interpreted her
motives as bad motives and murderer's eyes.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
That's what they look like.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
They were just angry. And the fact that she was
so pregnant in the trial it was and the outfits
she wore, without trying to sound bitchy about it, they
were terrible. Her clothes were terrible, and every day she
had a different outfit on it. And I think she
was a keen soler and I think she'd made them herself.
It was just it was very very sad, you know,
(31:58):
just to see what she went through and the people
sort of calling at her or calling her terrible names
as she's going into court.
Speaker 10 (32:05):
That was very very bad. You know.
Speaker 9 (32:08):
Lindy was the religion was considered weird. Lindy was considered,
you know, very odd in terms of the interactions with
people and journalists, and you can't get away from the
oddness all the time. That made people think there was
something else. Clearly there wasn't. I didn't ever have a
(32:35):
view that she was definitely guilty. I certainly have a
view now she was definitely innocent.
Speaker 7 (32:40):
She is incredibly loyal, and I think that was one
of the things that was tested to the extreme throughout.
Speaker 9 (32:51):
People watching it had formed the view that she, for
whatever reason, was mentally unstable, that they are a bit weird,
they had a strange religion, and there were a lot
of important people giving evidence saying she did it, all
that the evidence pointed to her doing it. So while
(33:13):
it's you look back now and go, this is impossible
to believe, on the day in the trial, it wasn't
impossible to.
Speaker 10 (33:22):
Believe on the whole. The trial went very, very well.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
The only things that I thought could have gone better
was the fact that the real truth about the underdashperate
didn't come out. Joey Call had said something was feet
or blood when it clearly wasn't.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Can you explain why it didn't come out?
Speaker 7 (33:56):
Well, the true story didn't come out because Joey Call
this notation which saved those test results, because on the
face of a work notes, she hadn't promptly tested.
Speaker 5 (34:09):
Them, and that evidence shouldn't have gone in.
Speaker 7 (34:12):
But when she was being cross examined, she produced this
notation at the back of her work notes, which I'd
never seen before, which said that she had tested them.
I stood with her at the photocopy and saw every
page photocopied, and so I saw every page placed down
(34:32):
on the photocopy, and I saw what was on the
other page. But here you've got a Crown witness in
the middle of a trial saying, oh, yes, I did
use the proper controls, and here's a notation, and I
don't know whether that was photocopied.
Speaker 6 (34:50):
Is it your contention between the inquest and the trial
that those documents.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Have been noted?
Speaker 7 (34:57):
I think there's no doubt that that's what it happened.
Speaker 6 (35:01):
Missus Cool's forensic notes were examined by a Royal commission
almost four and a half years later. Cool had written
no reactions with animal anti serra on the reverse side
of the page, but scientists who looked at her test
results in nineteen eighty seven discovered that no animal anti
(35:22):
serum had been used at all. Justice Morling described the
entry on the reverse side of the work notes as unsatisfactory.
I think we know what that's legal speak for. So
not only had Cool mistaken copper oxide dust as blood,
(35:45):
she had altered her work notes in between the second
inquest and the trial so that they supported the Crown's case.
But in late October nineteen eighty two, the Chamberlain jury
did not know that, and the defense chose not to
tell them.
Speaker 7 (36:05):
You've got two choices. You either have to accept it
as we did, or you have to say.
Speaker 5 (36:11):
Hold on your lying. And you are not going to
do that.
Speaker 7 (36:15):
In the middle of a trial, because here you're calling
someone a liar who's been brought into it as an
expert witness.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
You know the risk, You know the Crown will be able.
Speaker 7 (36:28):
To say the defense is so desperate that they've accused
this woman of lying and fabricating evidence.
Speaker 6 (36:38):
The eyewitness testimony of Sally Shaw and other campers had
been swept aside. And not only that, where were the
voices of the indigenous trackers Barbara and Marty Daisy walk
about Kitty Collins a new a Minion Terry.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Coroner Barrett had.
Speaker 6 (36:58):
Heard from them through their formal spokesperson, Nipper went Marty,
but none of their evidence was heard by the trial jury.
And that's because what they'd seen, like Sally Shaw, contradicted
the Crown's case.
Speaker 13 (37:16):
I guess when it came to their evidence with the
Indigenous people that were involved, to me, I don't think
they were given enough credence. It was as though they
retreated as second class citizens that they weren't valued. I mean,
they were there from what I heard, they had the
(37:37):
obvious tracking skills the people that were involved, So why
didn't their evidence carry anyway? But then at that stage
when we got to the trial, they weren't giving weight
to anyone's evidence. Who was actually there on the spot
when it happened that you know, the West in the
(37:58):
tent next door Murray Haveby who found the prints up
on the hill and the imprint of the jumpsuit. I mean,
all that evidence just seemed to be negligent. Though it
didn't count. It got overrun by the scientific supposed scientific evidence.
(38:22):
I mean, a lot of it turned out to be crap,
But at that stage people were believing all the stuff
that was coming forth.
Speaker 6 (38:34):
The trial had run for thirty three days. Just as
Muirhead thanked the jury for their work and they retired
to consider a verdict. Most assumed the process would take days,
not hours.
Speaker 9 (38:49):
The view at the time was that she would be acquitted.
I was sitting at a long table with Barker unless
the message from the court was that there's a verdict.
Speaker 6 (39:00):
Returned after just six hours, and you'll hear the unanimous
verdict in the next episode. In the meantime, I wanted
to remind you that Azaria Chamberlain's matinee jacket is still
missing and no one is searching for it, nor are
they looking for the person or persons unknown that coroner
(39:20):
Barrett believed disposed of the missing baby's body. Since we
created the last episode, I've made contact with Detective Superintendent
Neil Pluman. We spoke briefly and he does not want
to tell his side of the story, and of course
I respect that. I'm still trying to make contact with
(39:40):
Detective Sergeant Graham Childwood, who led the investigation for the
Northern Territory Police. If you subscribe now, you're gett alert
the moment we released the next show. I'd like to
say thanks to Nicky, Simon and Stephen who helped create
this episode, and a shout out to ash, Bill and Nancy,
(40:02):
and thanks to you for listening.
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