December 5, 2023 • 54 mins
In this powerful episode of ComingOutBlak, host Courtney sits down with the inspiring Mikayla Hinkley, a Queer Aboriginal Woman and Professional Cricket Player. Together, they delve into Mikayla's unique journey, shedding light on the intersectionality of her identity within the cricketing world.
Episode Highlights:
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Cricket as the World's Whitest Sport: Mikayla opens up about the challenges and triumphs of navigating the predominantly white space of professional cricket as a proud Aboriginal woman. She shares anecdotes that reflect her resilience and determination to break barriers in a sport not traditionally known for its diversity.
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Embracing Intersectionality: The conversation explores Mikayla's experiences as a queer individual within the context of her Aboriginal identity. Listeners gain insight into the complexities of navigating multiple layers of identity and the importance of fostering inclusivity in sports.
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Cultural Pride and Representation: Mikayla discusses the significance of cultural pride and the responsibility she feels as a trailblazer in her field. The episode sheds light on the importance of representation and the impact it can have on aspiring athletes from underrepresented communities.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is recorded on Stolen Land.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
We acknowledge and pay our respects to our elders, past, present,
and for future generations.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm Mateka and I'm Courtney and we're two Queer.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
First Nations women passionate about representation for our community.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
We created this podcast to share our stories. We want
you to join us on the journey.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You're listening to Coming Out Black. This is Coming Out Black.
Thank you so much for joining in today. I'm going
to save the introductions. We have a very special guest
who's with us this morning. Please welcome Mikayla Hinkley. Thanks
for having me spoke to be here. Now this let's
get straight into it.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Who are you? Who am I?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'm a proud Aboriginal woman connections Southwest Queensland, Queen Country,
Connor Molla. So yeah, that's where I'm from. I didn't
grow up on Country. I actually grew up in western Sydney,
a place called Penrith. Both my parents grew up in
mount So. You know, I think to any of the outsiders,
you think, you know, it's pretty rough upbringing. But yeah,
(01:06):
just a typical working class parents worked really hard so
that we could get any opportunities that came our way.
So yeah, that's a little bit about my I guess
family background. But I'm also a professional cricketer, which is
really exciting. I've been a professional cricketer since I was seventeen,
which has been a really crazy, wonderful, awful learning journey
(01:29):
for me so far over the past almost ten years.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
But you know, I wouldn't change it for the world.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I'm also currently studying psychology and hopefully get my honors
done somewhere in the future near future.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
But yeah, no, absolutely loving that.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
That's been a part of my life for the past
couple of years now and definitely something I want to
go into and explore more in how we can help
MOB in that space as well and create strength based
approaches so for our mob. So yeah, I guess that's
a little tiny little bit about me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, just a professional cricketer.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So and how how does how does a black fellow
get into the what is traditionally known as the most
colonial sport in the world. How do you how did
you come into it? And yeah, what's been your experience
so far?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
This is such a good question and I don't think
we touch on it and half as black followers know
it because I have not met many, if any black
followers that have made it professionally from remote communities. So
I was lucky. I didn't grow up in a remote community.
I grew up in western Sydney suburbia, so opportunities weren't shallow.
(02:40):
We had opportunity to be involved in mainstream sporting organizations.
And I understand that that's a privilege that I.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Got growing up.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
And I see that there's like a massive, I guess,
hole in the system for actually giving opportunity to our
remote regional mari that don't get you know, who might
be just as good, if not better, at cricket or
skilled in any sport, but don't get that opportunity. So
I think it's might not just be a cricket thing.
(03:10):
So I guess I, yes, I'm privileged. I got that opportunity,
probably through you know, where I lived. And I guess
for me, I just wanted to do whatever my older
brother was doing, so at the time that was soccer
and cricket. He wasn't allowed to play footage just yet,
but we both we were absolute and url fanatics, so
that's something we always wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I never got to do it.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
But yeah, played cricket in soccer up until I was
about sixteen. Then I had to choose to focus on
one and that was cricket. And yeah, I just kind of,
I guess through talent alone, just kind of got shifted
into into mainstream pathways. Played what then was called Impaja
Kap which was awesome with New South Wales, and then
(03:54):
when I was about twenty, moved up to Queensland. I
haven't looked back, to be honest, so I feel like
I'm home now, which is all. But yeah, like I said,
I come from a really privileged position as a black follower.
To be able to be involved in professional sport, there's
a lot you have to sacrifice, and yeah, I definitely
understand my privilege in that cricket need to do better
(04:15):
in tapping into our remote regions of I guess for
me Queensland, but broadly the whole country totally.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And what has been your experience?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I think like if you can pull out a I
guess a highlight and a low light of your very
esteemed cricket career and taking out in putch Cup, because
I feel like that is the highlight for most of us,
what would you say has been the most impactful moment
for you playing cricket. Can you put it down to
a game or a season. That's a really good question,
(04:50):
Like I think, like highlight wise, like just career wise,
it was probably twenty twenty one season.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
We were kind of in the year before we had
like a hub situation. We were all like put into
a hub, and you know that was horrible. We don't
want to talk about that. But the next year it
was more of a bubble, so we were allowed to
travel around and stuff, and professionally and skill wise, I
got a lot of opportunity and I played really well
and we made the semi finals, and I just felt like,
(05:19):
despite previously probably feeling like I bit of self sabotage
and imposter syndrome wasn't good enough to be where I was,
I felt like I kind of finally cemented myself in
the Brisbane Heat team, which I've played for for the
past four years, and that I could compete with the
best cricketers because our Big Bash competition is one of
the best in the world. So you know, I felt
(05:41):
like I was really coming into my skin and that
I was slowly kind of reaching some sort of potential
that other people had seen in me.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I had a lot of fun that year.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I almost top scored for our fIF the over competition
with Queensland as well.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I got Player of the Year.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Like everything was just kind of starting to roll for me,
and I kind of thought it would keep rolling. But
the next season was probably the twenty twenty two seasons,
So the last year was probably.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
A real kind of crappy season for me. Like I just.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I guess I'd started my psychology degree, and I'd been
out to kind of Mala a fair bit as well,
and I was kind of just engaging more with culture
and I kind of started dating my partner now, Bez,
and she's also an ex professional athlete. So a lot
(06:34):
of things that I struggled with in the past, I
didn't know that was normal for black athletes. I just thought,
you know, like I'm just a dickhead, Like I'm just
like I need to be better, Like why can't I
be like all my white counterparts in my team, like,
you know, And I just didn't really recognize the stuff
that I was struggling with was actually really common for
(06:56):
a lot of other black professional athletes, and not even
just athletes black professionals in general, in white dominated sports
or colonial sports, I should say, so.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, I guess kind of. Yeah, met Bez. Sorry, I'm
like trying to think where I was up to.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You met Bez and we started dating and then she
was really helping me through some of these issues, and
she's going, actually, no, like I struggled with that too.
I know this person, this person, and this person really
famous professional athletes that have been through the same thing,
and I'm like, oh damn, like this is a really
colonial sport. Oh my gosh, this is really systemically not okay.
(07:36):
Oh my god, Like I don't actually have that much support.
No wonder why I've really struggled through the past, you know,
six years of my career because you know, I haven't
recognized that this is such an issue.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I just it just was normal for me.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
And even like I look back further into school and
stuff like that, I'm like far out, Like I just
didn't recognize that. So I think connecting in with culture
kind of highlighted some things that weren't okay in our sport,
and I started to stand up for that a lot.
And when you stand up for things, these emotional attachments
(08:11):
happened to things where you want to fight for it,
and when it doesn't happen, then you feel so useless
and let down. And again I talked about that imposter syndrome.
That's what I felt like last year because had all
these things that I wanted to push for for our
mob so that they could have opportunities, and I just
kept getting kicked backed and kicked back, and the flow
on effect went into my profession and into my skill
(08:33):
and into my game, and I just kind of had
enough of everyone.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I didn't want to talk to anyone.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
And it was like at the point last this time
last year where we'd sit in team meetings and I
was sitting there and there was a lot going on
in community.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
At that point in time.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
There was the Cassier situation that had happened over in
WA and you know, when it affects one of us,
affects all of us. So and Danelle Wallam like that
stuff was happening as well. So I was sitting in
this team meeting and I was like, why am I here?
Like why am I here? We're talking about you know,
setting up innings against his team and trying to you know,
(09:09):
win and whatever tactics and I'm just sitting there, like,
I do not want to be here. I want to
be out with my mob, I want to be in community,
I want to be making change, and I still struggle
with that sometimes. But I think last year it just
really hit me. And I think this year, like putting
boundaries around your emotion and what you're going to invest
time into has been a bit more clear for me.
(09:30):
But yeah, I really struggled with that last year. So
I kind of had back to back highlight to low
light situation and professional sports such a rollercoaster like this,
this will continue to happen. But yeah, I guess for me,
it's not always about performing. It's not always about succeeding
or playing for Australia or you know, I love I
love NICC and im Pajia, which I'm not even allowed
(09:52):
to play anymore, but because I'm professionally contracted, you're too good. Yeah,
But you know, like it's it's so important for me,
and I think and all of us that are playing professionally,
all as black fellows that are playing professionally, to be
engaged in that competition. So you know, yeah, for me,
(10:13):
I guess yeah, leading into I guess a more grounded
space where I know where to invest my time and
emotion because I do care about opportunities for our mob.
Whether that's whether that's sport or educational health or whatever.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
It's everything. And I think crickets such.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
A little, tiny, tiny, tiny piece of my life. How
can I use that to I guess, gain momentum in
what I want to do or what we want to
achieve as a people because I have, you know, somewhat
of a little platform that I can use. I'm still
working out how to use that, but I guess, yeah,
I know I've gone on a bit of a tangent there,
(10:54):
But I think just recognizing certain inequalities and injustices in
our sport and society just really did my head in
and affected everything around me.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
And that's what I think.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
That's what people don't understand is that if one thing
for black follows happens in their life, it affects everything,
like it affects perceptions on everything, and it affects the
way that we understand things and the way that we
want to move through things. You know, with holistic people,
where multifaceted people were not. You know, Okay, well, I've
(11:31):
got good marks in maths. So I'm going to become
an engineer and like that's going to be you know,
my career path. It's well, no, actually, I'm skilled in
X y Z. I'm going to do X y Z
And that's really different in our society to have multiple
things that we want to do. So yeah, I guess
I guess that really affected me, and moving through that
(11:52):
now has been really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I love what you said about like being multifaceted and
it's deeply complex, like your experience of your professional career.
You know, some you know, some athletes are able to
you know, go to work, go to sport, go home
and not be affected by the whole world, or by
the government, or by social commentary, or you don't have
(12:14):
to worry about seeing your name in the media and
people you know immediately just commenting on your race. I
wanted to ask a little bit more about imposter syndrome now.
I did an assignment at UNI not too long ago,
and what I found was, as much as I could
find within iasis was there's no word in Aboriginal language
or toosha Alan language that translates to imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
So it's not our thing.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
It didn't come from us, so you know that was
a beautiful gift from the colony.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
How how do you work through that?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
I you know, we're kind of in our later twenties,
and like you said, you said you sort of work
through it.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I want to kind of unpack that a bit.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I think it's something that's universally experienced, and then for
mob there's another layer to it. As a woman, there's
a layer to it, and then as a queer woman,
that's not the layers. So this is probably just me
asking for advice therapy.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
How did you work through it?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I guess like the first part of it was actually
understanding it. So like you, I was given an assignment
where I had to present and facilitate a group session
around people with imposter syndrome and helping News flash, everybody
has imposter syndrome. It's like a spectrum. It's like you
get a score, you do a test, It's like that
kind of thing. So everybody has it. But I guess, yeah,
(13:35):
you're right for me. I actually had our team S
and C strength and conditioning coach. He was asking me
a bit about it when I told him I was
doing it for UNI, and he's like, oh, so like,
is it a genetic thing?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
So no, it's not.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
It's like a complete societal thing. So, like you said,
it's got nothing to do with Black followers, and you know,
I definitely don't think it had anything to do with
us pre colonization, to be honest, or affected us at all.
But yeah, it's a definite societal thing. And I think
when if we're speaking specifically about being Black followers, when
(14:12):
we're constantly measured up against Western standards and expected to
understand things and conform and agree and have a sense
of self determination in an environment that isn't ours, constantly
pushed into those environments, we're always going to think we're
not good enough.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
You know. It's funny.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Around the referendum, people a lot of mom were saying,
you know, we're living in a know, so what's that
going to change?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
And we are?
Speaker 3 (14:42):
And I guess, like, how does that not create a
sense of imposter syndrome, being like well, I'm not good
enough to be here, or you know, why am I here?
Or you know, just just complete self sabotage basically. So yeah,
and it does. It does the TI stickly affect you know,
(15:02):
black follows more, it affects women more. When I say
affect it means like we'll rate higher with higher characteristics
of imposter syndrome. And then yes, also like diversity groups
like queer LGBTQA plus communities, it affects them more again
for the same reasons, like you know, you there's all
(15:25):
this normativity that we're meant to live up to and
conform to and and there's no room.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
For autonomy at all.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
So and I guess that's been breaking down over time,
and it will continue to break down over time, and
you know, us black follows will get to the point
where hopefully one day we do feel autonomy and what
we're doing and we do feel good enough. And I
think that's what's so good about being around mob is
because you don't you don't have imposter syndrome. You know,
like not once have I gone out to Konamla and
it felt like an imposta. It's like everyone around me
(15:57):
is like, hey.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
What's happening, what's there? Communities is coming, Let's do this,
let's do that.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
And it's just like, oh, like you know, it should
just like gone with the flow with everything, and everything
feels so natural and normal, and you know, I'd never
felt a sense of normal at cricket in school, you know,
in all these systems where you know, black fellows don't
kind of understand how those systems work. You know, we
(16:26):
have our own education system outside of this western one
we're meant to be a part of. And we have
our own law outside of you know, we have an
l O R E. Outside of the law that you know,
our country bestows on us. You know, so just trying
to jump into something that is not naturally ours or
(16:46):
we work with or understand completely, it's like a melting
pot for amoster syndrome.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
You know what I mean exactly, And it's almost like
having that direct contrast of when you do go to the community,
like you're saying, like you just get treated as a
as aer, like you're not your you're not your job role,
you're not your you know, you're not the demographic that
you identify as. You're not recognized, you know, as a
professional sports person, like you're literally just you and almost
(17:12):
like you know, people keep you accountable, people humble you,
people you know, but they also they love you, and
they don't love you because of what you do, who
you are, how much money or sorry.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
They do love you for who you are.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
They don't love you for you know, for your job,
or for how connected you are, you know, to networks,
or how you're going to be able to, you know,
help them tick their box on, you know, with their
diversity initiative. Absolutely, it's just family and they just love
you for you. And I think there's a lot of
us don't really have that space outside of community because
a lot of the time that we're getting looked at
(17:45):
or I guess, like you're saying, when you don't really
belong technically. They have these programs like inclusion, but the
way that inclusion works, at least from my perspective, is
that like there's a there's a whole system with its power,
and now they're kind of opening their door to include you,
but once you get inside, it's still the same shit hole.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So yeah, it is a really interesting kind of concept
to wrap your head around.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Absolutely, and we're always thrown like I don't know about you,
but like in organizations and enterprises and businesses and whatever workplaces,
we're always thrown under like the inclusion and diversity, Like oh,
first Nations people, that's inclusion and diversity. Like nah, bitch,
we were here first, like, we're not new, We're not
this like you know, I guess I don't know, Like
(18:31):
we have been here for sixty thousand plus years. We're
not diversity. You're you're different to us, not the other
way around. Yeah, you know your systems are diverse to us.
We should not be diverse to you. And that really
annoys me about different organizations, like I guess, like, and
that feeds into what you're saying too, I think, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And like how do we restructure? It's almost just like
you need to you know, burn it all down stuff again. Yeah,
with that kind of mind set, But how do you
navigate being in these kind of Western environments that do
have that long standing you know, white patriarchal ties to
various you know, white Australia policies and so forth.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
How do you navigate that? How do you navigate it?
We're all experiencing it, you know, like it's it's it's hard.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Even UNI.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
UNI can be so frustrating sometimes because in psychology we
reflect a lot, so we've got to right reflective essays
and stuff a lot, and so sometimes it's like, oh,
culturally reflect and it's like okay, that's cool, but you
want me to reference my cultural reflection as well and
where my culture you know, I have to Western eyers
(19:54):
how I talk about my culture and that's really difficult
for me and most, if not all black follows to do.
And I'm like, how and why is this happening? Like, yeah,
I guess, I guess. I think it's always better when
you have more brown you who are going through the
same thing. You know, I've been really fortunate the last
(20:16):
maybe eighteen months that we've hired at Queensland Cricket Karen Gibbs,
who's so deadly like he has just been so awesome
with me, proud kuma man, just getting me through training
and stuff, Like he'll even come up to training and
give me throwdowns and stuff, just so they're like there's
someone else there that understands and gets what I'm going
(20:37):
through and all that kind of stuff, and he will
always catch up for coffee and that, and even just
that little bit of connection, you know, even it's just
one person, it's really helped to just debrief and just
be like, how do I communicate this issue to non
Indigenous people?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
How do I how.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Do I not be angry about this all the time?
How do how do I kind of park my emotion
about this, you know. So I think being around other
mobs really important. And you know, if you don't have
that opportunity, or you don't you know that you are
the only black follower in your organization or whatever, just
make sure you have those strong connections, whether it's mates
(21:15):
and other mob outside of work and you're just constantly
connecting with them. I think that's really important. And me
and my partner really try to make as much time
as we can in our spare time to connect in
with our with our mates and our mob in Brizzy
and then talk to our family as much as we
can too.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
So yeah, I think that's where it starts. Definitely.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I wanted to ask you because I'm like, I'm genuinely curious,
Like we've obviously just gone through a referendum process slash
a very expensive survey to find out that that Australia
is still racist. Being someone who's also you know, you
were of voting age when the plebiscite for marriage quality
(22:01):
went through back in twenty eighteen, how's that differed And
do you feel, you know, identifying as queer or part
of the LGBTQ community in contrast to being a part
of you know, First Nations community and identifying in that way.
I know that we both obviously heavily identify with both,
but there's times where some part of you is heavily,
(22:25):
way more heavily affected than the other. I want to
I want to hear kind of your experience and probably
the contrasting experiences from the plebiscite to the referendum.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
That's such a good question. I actually haven't thought about
it off the top of my head. For me, I
was in a place and a space where I was
around I'm talking about the plebiscite where I was playing
a Governor General's match against England for LA.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Yeah, I was in the Governor Generals eleven, which would
have been like a kind of situation a Prime Minister's
eleventh situation. I was nineteen, and obviously there's a lot
of queer people in sport, well in female sports, so
I was around community in that perspective, like, I was
(23:18):
around a.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Majority in that space.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
So in sport, the majority of us are from the
queer community. So I think for me in that situation,
the plebiscite passed and you know, whatever percentage of Australia
decided yes, there should be marriage equality in this country,
and that was really great, But that whole leading up
to it, I was in an environment where it was
just like.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
You know, normalized and already like a thing. And I
guess I.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Don't know, not that I wasn't in that situation with
the referendum, but in terms of like societal normativity or
like societal perspective, I think in the lead up to
the referendum, I definitely surrounded myself with people that were
pro the voice, and I probably was a little bit
(24:11):
blindslided with how people.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Weren't or wanted to vote no.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
And I always stood in a position where, like with
the referendum, I really respect mob that wanted to vote
no and did vote no. Totally respect that and would
never you know, have anything opposing to them and their
reason because we're all diverse. Every mob needs has different
needs and you know, needs to have a different voice
(24:39):
in that circumstance. So I totally understand that. What I
don't understand is is people thinking they know better or
think people thinking they can have a voice. And I
think even part of like voting was people exercising their
you know, colonial privilege or their white privilege by voting,
you know.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
So I just feel like the.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Referendum, looking back now with the perspective of it not
being successful, I just don't know if it was the
right way to go about it now. And I know
that there was people saying this long before it happened,
But now I understand that better because we've been through
this little roller coaster, emotional roller coaster of you know,
(25:25):
I guess, identifying how racist our country is again. But yeah,
I think the plever site was just like, well, I
don't know, you were just surrounded with.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I guess there was never a doubt.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
In my mind at that time that I can remember
sitting here now where it wasn't going to pass or
it wasn't going to happen, and I would not want
to imagine what would have happened if it didn't, Like
there would be proper protests, like violent protests, I think
if the plebsite didn't, like if that was a no, Like,
I don't know what you think, but I.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Just yeah, And it's almost like I wonder why we
don't have them now because of the opposition of the voice.
But yeah, they talk about like the democratic process and oh, well,
you know, we went through the democratic process, and you're like, well,
that process itself is inherently super racist and not inclusive
(26:22):
and not equitable for the demographic in which they were
voting on. And I understand that's how you get constitutional change,
it's how you get law reform. But that process in
itself obviously just isn't right. But that is a huge
example of why we're in the situation that we are
because of how it's all been set up. I want
(26:44):
to ask you a quick question. I do wonder this.
Do you think it is safer to I identify as
queer versus identifying as black in your experience within professional sport?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yes? Absolutely, And like I can't speak for everyone on
that either. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I think just because it's in female sport, and a
male would answer this completely different, so it would probably
be the complete opposite to what I'm going to say.
But I think for females it's normal. It's like, you know,
and I hate using the word normal.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
It's shitty. I hate it. There shouldn't be a word,
but anyway, you know, it's accepted. That's a better word
to say, it's accepted.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
And I guess, like, I don't know, it hasn't always been,
like it definitely has always been. And I think when
I first when I got my first contract down in
New South Wales or when I first started training with
the Breakers down in New South Wales, some comments used
to get tossed around by very high profile players that
(27:49):
were very homophobic at the time. And so you know
that was before identified as queer as well. I was
probably like fifteen sixteen, so that for me was very confronting.
But I guess yeah, as times time has moved on
and people have understood our community more and understood themselves
a bit more, Like I think that's really helped. And yeah, again,
(28:12):
like I just think it's really accepted in female sport,
whereas yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Being black's completely different.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I like, yeah, what annoys me about being black is
that people just think I'm black.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Google.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah, and I know that a lot of like every
black fellow in every other organization feels the same way
when like they might be the only Indigenous or First
Nation person in their organization. But yeah, it's my partner
said this the other day, But she's like, if you're
if you're interested enough to come and ask me that question.
(28:50):
You're interested enough to actually just go google it, look
into it, and if you want to fact check something,
come back to me and we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
I love that. Yeah, literally, that's so smart. I know,
she's pretty. Yeah she is.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
If you're interested enough in it, you should google it,
and if you want to fact check, come back to me.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I like so much information out there about it. Curiously,
it's this is so easy to act that we just have.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
A blind you know, people want to pick and choose
what they see and hear, and I hate that about
our society.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It's very true.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Where do you think you want to you want to
leave your mark sport slash the world?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
This is a good question because I don't fully know yet.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I'm twenty five, like I've got I've got a lot
of working out to do. I'm much more sure in
myself than what I was even you know, twelve months ago,
which is awesome. But I think for me in sport,
like I said at the start of the podcast, I
want there to be more opportunity for our mob period.
(29:58):
But where I can have it impact is obviously sport
and in particular cricket. You know, like going out to
kind of Mala Palm Island, Mornington Island, ISA, like all
these remote communities and seeing the talent that these kids have,
Like I don't need to tell any Black follow how
talented our mobile, but you know, like for non Indigenous
(30:22):
people to explain that, it's like it leaves you speechless
because it's like there's like a seven year old girl
who has a better throwing arm than what I do
and I'm getting paid to do that.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, and she's.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Never going to get the opportunity that I get purely
because of where I grew up and you know what
I had to conform to growing up or what you know,
what I had to leave behind culture wise. And I
think I said this in another other podcast once, but
I feel like for us black follow athletes, we sacrifice past,
(30:54):
We sacrifice parts of our culture to be part of
these sporting systems. And it's the same in education, same
in health. Sacrifice parts of ourselves so that we can
be part of systems that are built for us not
to succeed, which sucks.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
And I feel like.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
When you're culturally rich, your opportunity poor. And when you're
opportunity rich, you're culturally poor. And this is the debicle
that we have amongst mob at the moment, and it
shouldn't be like that. No, it shouldn't be It should
be culturally strong, opportunity strong for everyone exactly. And before
(31:33):
when you were speaking about remote communities.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
You know a lot of people that my bad.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Before we're talking about you know, remote communities, we the
running narrative is, oh, there's so much talent, there's you know,
they just need opportunity.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
But people don't really like.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Kind of break down why things are the way that
they are. And even though we can recognize the talent,
there's a whole lot different from you know, sporting bodies
in general recognizing, acknowledging and celebrating that talent without actually
creating tangible activities, initiatives that require resources and funding.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Absolutely part of me is scared about it because they're
sporting organizations are very capable of creating these opportunities, they
have the funding. Part of me feels like, you know,
deep down, and this might be a complete subconscious thing
under the surface, is because they're scared that our sporting
systems are going to be flooded with black people because
(32:33):
we're good and talented. I'll just say it how it is,
you know, like old cop whatever heat for it.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
But you know, like it just amazes me.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
It amazes me at the little opportunity that mob get.
And you know, like I'll use my partner for an
example as well. It's just from Country North, Queensland had
to go to boarding school at fifteen to have somewhat
of an opportunity in her sport. You know, like there's
parts of you that you give up. There's parts of
(33:06):
you know, being part of a community that you give up.
And a lot of you has to conform to these
pathways and these what you need to achieve and what
you should be doing and what you shouldn't be doing.
And then when you have mental health issues, it's like,
oh my gosh, well why do you have mental health issues?
And it's like, well, why don't you look at the
fact that you know, I'm in a system that's working
(33:29):
against me, not for me, and not recognizing my strengths
and nurturing my strengths. It's actually understanding my deficits and
bringing my deficits to light constantly and telling me that
I'm not good at this or I'm not good at that.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Like you know, I guess, yeah, and then you're in
a high performance environment where you have to be better
than everyone because you feel like you have to prove
yourself constantly.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Just your.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Mered like existence I feel sometimes in those environments, and
to me, I think like just generally I'm at the
concerned about is with the rise of women's sport.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
I'm not concerned about that.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I think that's amazing, But with the rise of it,
I'm worried that we're going to follow the same pattern
as men's sport.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
You know, the old boys network.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
You know, you make it only if you get into
that school, if you move to a capital city which has,
you know, its own issues with affordability, and we're in
a cost of living in a housing crisis, like you know,
I know young athletes to drive five hours to go
to training, and they're only able to do that because
they're in a privileged position. There are for everyone, you know,
(34:33):
everyone that makes it, there's thousands that miss out and
thousands that could, you know, take it to the next level.
It's a whole systematic issue that we do have that
we need to get, you know, on the front foot floor,
otherwise we're going to end up in the same position
and I think some of the best role models this
country have right now are our female athletes.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Absolutely, but we're going.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
To lose those amazing people if we, you know, continue
your self that self serving cycle. And yeah, even though
we can point at a few blackfellows in each of
our national sporting teams, they are by no means like
they got their own devices. They probably had to outwork
so many, so much more than the other athletes. But
(35:15):
just because there's one doesn't mean more successful exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And then that's what I'm sick of. Yeah, that's what
I'm sick of. Yeah, like because it's just you, right,
you're in your club and yeah, yeah, it's just me
and Queensland. But it's not just me. Yeah, Like that's
what pisses me off.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
It's like, yeah, I'm a black athlete, I'm a black
cricket and I'm playing professionally, but I don't have to
be the only one, and I shouldn't be the only one.
And like as frustrating, it's so it's debilitating sometimes because
I know how good and I know how hard working
are more bar despite what they're working hard for, being
something that's probably going to tear them apart. Anyway, and
(35:52):
it's torn me apart, like I've you know, like the
amount of times I've wanted to quit cricket, Like I
can't count on hands and toes like fingers, and like
how many times I wanted to quit? And on top
of that the imposter syndrome, and like maybe I shouldn't
be here maybe, you know, like just it's debilitating, and
every black follower and sport experiences it, and some are
(36:15):
better at shutting it off than others. Some are better
at just being like, Okay, I'm just gonna shut it off.
I don't know. I don't know how they do it,
because I can't. You know, it's not fair. And I
can sit here and be like, oh it's not fair
and win and complain. But I think I'm actually making
the choice to be like, Okay, well, yes I'm still
good enough to be playing the level of cricket I am,
(36:37):
but I will play if I can have an impact
off the field too for our mob and create opportunities,
you know, like I want to be more active in
that space than what I am. And I think sometimes
the position I'm in is it's like, oh, we'll sort
it out. You just focus on your cricket, and it's like, no, no,
you don't understand. I can't focus on my cricket unless
I know that our mob are being looked after. And
(36:59):
the more people around me that can understand that first
Nations on first Nations, the more successful I will probably
be on the back of everybody around me being more
in terms of first nations people being more successful around me.
That will make me happy. Yeah, and again, it doesn't
just have to be cricket. It's any sport in general,
(37:19):
like netball, football, soccer, like anything you name it. Hockey,
I don't care, like give our more of an opportunity. Agreed,
hands down, one hundred.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
If you could give yourself, as a young indigenous queer
woman coming in again at seventeen, what advice would you
give yourself?
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Goodness? Where would I start? Be proud?
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Don't be proud, don't think you have to do or
be whatever you want. Else is doing and being because
A they're not black, B B.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
That's not you.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Ce.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Appreciate your life outside of sport, Appreciate who you are
outside of sport. Nurture that and you'll be successful. I
think successful is not exclusive to on the field. It's
off the field too. I think that's a big learning
(38:33):
that I've probably had in the last twelve months. I've
probably nurtured myself a bit more off the field, understood
my strengths off the field, which went nurtured, like my
gifts and talents away from cricket. In school, we're not nurtured,
you know, I'm learning difficulties and stuff, and again that's
another level of imposter syndrome. So kind of I almost
(38:55):
feel like that's been rebirthed over the past twelve eighteen
months and I've understood my abilities and my skills a
bit more away from cricket. I'm not just a cricketer
or I'm not just good at sport. You know, I'm
creative and you know I'm talented and at other things,
and all black follows are. We're multifaceted. We're allowed to
(39:17):
do a million things in a day, and we're allowed
to try a million things in a day as well,
because we're good at a million things.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
We're pretty We're that deadly.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
So that's the advice I would give myself or any
other young Indigenous athlete who is, you know, looking for
a professional career. You've got to have thick skin but
be proud. Just be proud, and you don't have to
be like the people around you, but use the people
around you who support you for you, and nine times
(39:48):
out of ten, that's your mob.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
So yeah, and look, our podcast is called coming Out Black,
and we originally created it to kind of like a
play on words. Mantique and I quite light skinned slash
complexion black follows and we often talk about how, you know,
I probably used to be a bit more straight passing.
(40:11):
So often you're constantly coming out in a different way.
Either you're coming out as First Nations or you're coming
out as queer. And I wanted to ask you, I
guess you're coming out story, and I think you probably
have both to share, but I'd love to hear about,
I guess, yeah, what it's been like coming out in
(40:32):
your family, and then also what the experience is like,
you know, coming out within sporting environment, professional environment, university environment,
when you don't necessarily present as a stereotypical black fellow.
And when I say that, I know that the stereotypical
black fellow is not the most appropriate way to apply
that lens.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
But we're still in twenty twenty three in austraight as racist.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
So yeah, I feel like we can in this context
absolutely coming out story from a queer perspective. So it's
funny you just spoke about the plebiscite, So again nineteen.
It was probably a couple of months after that had
been passed. I was playing for the Perth Scorches at
the time, and before that, I was part of a
(41:15):
team that you know, queer sexuality kind of stuff. Not
everyone was that open about it, Like there was definitely
people in our team that had you know, female partners
and stuff like that, and that was really great, but
in terms of it being like in my age group
and around my age group.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Accepted, probably not.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
So went to Perth and oh my goodness, Like I
had the time of my life there because I don't
know if we had a straight girl in our team,
Like I really don't know if we did at the time,
and that was amazing for me because I was like,
oh my gosh, like we're all queer.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
This is deadly, like my people, this is sick.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yeah, And I had the best time and I just
felt like I was in my own skin because I'd
been in a relationship for like a year and a
half to year at that point, and like I hadn't
told my parents. Yeah, and that's really common for young queer,
young queer people, So you know, my partner was my
best friend at the time, and it was just like
(42:13):
you know, like you know, the real common story. But yeah,
I just remember like the Perth girls like talking about
like they're coming out stories and like some of them
still hadn't told their parents because they weren't accepting of
it and all this stuff. And you know, I'd worried
about it for so long, and unfortunately, when I was
over there, I got stress fractures and I couldn't play anymore.
(42:34):
But perf flew my mum over and I was kind
of like in my head, I was like I've been
the most comfortable I've been in my life here with
these people just being who I am. I'm going to
tell mom, Like I'll tell mom, you know, we'll go
for a drive out to the Margaret River. We'll have
some wine, and I'll tell it.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
We did that. We drove out to the Margaret River,
we had some wine.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
It was like about to come up in conversation and
I was just speechless, like I couldn't say it, and
I was just like, how do my mom's a Christian
and she's that's like, she's very heavily involved in the
Anglican Church. So and she's worked, you know, in organizations
in the Anglican diocese as well, so you know that's her.
That's part of her life as well. So for me,
I'm just like, I just don't want to be judged,
(43:19):
like the worst person I could be judged by is
my mother. A good relationship with my mother, so I
think I was just terrified of that. Anyway, mumad left,
I was still in Perth and I remember telling one
of my teammates for the Scorches that I was going
to tell her and she's like, did you tell her?
I was like no, and then I just said like,
I think I'll write a letter. Like I'll write a letter.
(43:41):
So I wrote a letter. I had like crutches. I remember,
I'll never forget. I had to get an uber to
the bloody post office to post this letter. And you know, me,
being a typical teenager in this generation, didn't know how
to post a letter. So I did go into the
post office be like how do I post this? They're like, well,
how quickly do you want it to get there. I'm like,
(44:01):
what's the quickest it can get there, Like, just get
this done with.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
So they're like giving me a little express envelope and
I put it in. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
I just turned off my phone for two days because
I was like, I don't want to talk to anyone anyway.
Two days later I turned my phone on and I
had like really lovely messages from my mom and my
dad and then just like it's like, you know, that
was really really supportive, and you know, I'm lucky in
that sense that it wasn't this big thing for them.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
It was just like okay.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Like for my mom, she's always just been like this,
there's things that I need to like conceptualize a bit,
but she's always been so supportive and loving, Like her
love for me has never faultered throughout anything that.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
I've you know, done in my life. So same with
my father. My father like I'm his only daughter.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
I've got three brothers, so he's just like, nuh like,
if you're happy, that's all that matters.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
So yeah, I've been awesome. I also have a queen younger.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Brother as well, so I kind of paved the way
for him a bit, I like to say, but yeah,
so I was my coming out story. I think like
being you know, I prefer to myself sometimes as a
fair skin Murray and my partner's like, yeah, oh that's right,
yeah Southwest, Like yeah that's right, Murdie.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yeah yeah. My partner will often say like I'll kick
your shins. I'll kick your shins, Like, don't talk like that.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
You're just feeding colonial standards if you're talking about the
colorI skin. So I guess for me, like I remember
moving up to Queensland, like in New South Wales, it's
just like yeah, like sick whatever, like people call me
Cory and I'm like anyway, like I just okay whatever,
I like, you know, and then like kind of moved
to Queensland and in my team like like people knew
(45:41):
that I identified as Aboriginal, but like when I just
remember training one day, one of my teammates was like,
you don't look Aboriginal, and I'm just like.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
I was like, here we go, here we go.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
And I feel like Queensland was probably a bit more
I mean historically and politically, Queensland's a pretty racist state.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
But anyway, I.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Had to like explain myself to them, which I was
still pretty young at the time. I was twenty one
when I moved up here, so I was like, I
think I got to the point where I was like
I shouldn't have to explain the color of my skin and.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Wasn't too hell like yeah literally literally like like you know, oh,
well what else are you?
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Then?
Speaker 1 (46:21):
What else are you?
Speaker 3 (46:22):
And like I'm happy is that Like I'm also your
English heritage as well, Like that's you know, I've got
a lot of English heritage. But yeah, I guess like
even like from people that were working at Cricket Queensland
at the time, it's like, oh, well you know I'm
Aboriginal and then oh oh oh okay, then oh okay,
like just this surprise mechanism. I'm just like, you know why,
(46:45):
like that used to make me feel really uncomfortable, whereas
now I'm just like if you don't know that I'm black,
you don't know that I'm black.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Yeah, but I live and breathe that I'm black, So
that's on you, not me.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
And I think I used to be like really sensitive
to like how other people would perceive me, whereas now
I'm just like, if you don't know that I'm indigenous,
Like that's a you problem because.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
I am proud.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
I'm so proud, and you know that's the massive part
of my identity, so that's not on me anymore.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
So that was interesting, I think, like just.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
In professional places and spaces like yeah, just kind of
I guess, yeah, working out how to receive people's reactions sometimes. Yeah,
And I in saying that, like the space A Queens
and Cricket has become a lot more culturally safe for
(47:36):
me and other people as well. It hasn't always been
like that, you know, I push really hard for it
to be a more culturally safe space and they're still
room to grow there, but it's been amazing the past
couple of years too, So a lot of cultural awareness
as much as I said before, like people asking me questions.
I always see that as a good thing though, because
I just, yeah, I think as tiring as it can be,
(48:00):
burnout as educating people can be. If not me, then
who and if not now? In so you know, I
guess that's that's been really cool that people are up
to listening, which has been fortunate to be an environment
where people will listen and unders want to understand more,
which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
I love that for you.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
You know, it can be an extremely invalidating experience, and
you know, and it sounds like a lot of that
that movement has been a result of some of your
own you know, personal energy, and you know that's that's difficult.
But I think I'm so excited knowing that as more
black fathers come through you know, those pathways and following
your footsteps, is that they're going to have a better
(48:42):
experience and continue how to better experience because of your experience.
And they say the first through the fence is usually bloody,
cut up and bloody, but then the than the holes
in and then we were off.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
So you know, I think there's probably a lot a lot.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Of young, you know, young indigenous women you know only
in Queensland alone, that look up to you, and even
being older than you, I'm definitely one of them.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
I wish I was thank you. I wish I was
as good as you. Thank you No, But I just
I love the way that you speak.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
And I think, you know, I'm only a couple of
years older than you, but I think your ability to know,
like the way that you know yourself and the way
that you articulate that is yeah, is really strong.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
Thank you, and I hope it's taken a lot, Like
it's not easy. People aren't born knowing who they are.
Some people are, but that definitely wasn't the case for me,
and I've been in an environment where like you kind
of have to be like other people to succeed, yeah chameleon, Yeah, yeah,
literally literally, So I think, yeah, it's probably just like
the last twelve eighteen months being in a really healthy
(49:44):
relationship as well with someone who's very strong and sure
of themselves as well as created an environment where I
can feel comfortable to be strong and myself.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
So that definitely helps as well.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
But yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's not something
that's just happened overnight, that's for sure. But thank you
and looking forward to having you both on. Yeah, absolutely
crack up. I know you've given us a lot of
great advice that's come from her. So I think I
need to sit down with her and just literally you
(50:16):
don't even need me to come in, like just get me.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
I'll just be quiet and be like, yeah, what she said.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
It's really cool though, Like I will say, like even
last night we was sitting down like just you know,
a bottle of pinot and talking about like our education
system and how it needs to change, and having like
really in depth conversations about culture and what's hard for
us US black followers to succeed. And it's really wholesome
(50:42):
to be in a relationship where your energy, emotion, and
momentum is going towards the same thing. She's completing her
master's in indigenous education. I'm doing psychology and monitoring in
developmental psychology and community psychology. So we kind of combined
and a lot of ideas and we're collaborate, like our
culture's collaborative learning environment pre colonization.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
So to be able to experience that's really magical and special.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
So I'm really lucky as well to have her as
part of my little support network.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
And yeah, I wouldn't have it any other way, to
be honest.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
I just realized, like, obviously we're not filming, but if
just to describe it, there's like your eyes are just
lit up.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
There you go, she's in love beuniform. I love that.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Just to close out, you know, we were talking about
your coming out through is what what advice do you
have for you know, I'm about there who you know
who identify as part of the LGBTQ community or you know,
curious thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
What's your advice on, you know, on coming out for them?
Don't isolate yourself. You know, it sucks that we have
to be brave sometimes to just be ourselves. It's like,
why can't I just be myself without effort? But you're
not alone, And I think that sounds really cliche, but
you're really not. If there's ever you know, Aboriginal torros
(52:05):
shrade Iland a kid person that wants to talk about it,
or is scared about coming out, or you know, had
a horrific experience.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Coming out, like I'm always all ear is.
Speaker 3 (52:15):
I don't care who you are aware from, like, and
I know so many other black fellows that are the same,
you know, So I guess it doesn't have to be
a daunting experience, and sometimes you work yourself up to
it in your head. So yeah, there's so much support,
and you know, you and I being some of those
people that are willing to support and help anyone that needs.
(52:37):
So yeah, just don't isolate yourself and it gets easier,
it does, It does beautiful. One day, you know you're
hiding in the school bathroom, you know, worried about your
bully calling you a lesbian because you play cricket, and
then the next day you're hosting a podcast ten years
later talking about how gay you are.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Absolutely so be proud, Be proud.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
It's funny because like I I'm Bez's first girlfriend, so
like she's like, I don't know if like you experienced that,
but when when you're like proud of having like a
same sex partner, and then it just comes up in
conversation all the time, Like she at that point where
she's just like, oh, yeah, like I'm with a woman
and that's great and she's better than your man like
naken A Gavin Nah, but no, I don't know, it's
(53:23):
it's I guess like when you surround yourself with loving
people and people who are supportive of you, then like
that's what's important. And yeah, like I got I had
the same experience in school too, like people saying like
even like saying like I was a man and stuff.
I'm like that's so like you know, like but anyway, yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Thank you so much this for coming on and how
you know, for our followers and listeners, how do we
find you on social media and otherwise? Aside from on
the field playing WBBL for Brisbane Heat and cricket for Queensland.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Where else can we find you? Instagram?
Speaker 3 (53:59):
I try to go on social media too much, but
I find myself on Instagram more than anything. LinkedIn is
also a good good space to kind of link in
professionally as well. But yeah, check out some staff I think,
you know. Post referendum, I'm pretty keen to be more
vocal and not just kind of sit and be quiet,
(54:20):
regardless of the heat that comes with that. So yeah,
I'm always open to yarning with anyone. So if you
if you need to chat, you have any questions, definitely
just DM me whatever.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Brilliant, All right, big loves this.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
Thank you so much, and you know we're all looking
forward to watching you kill it, you know, on the field,
off the field.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
And yeah, thanks appreciate it for sure, too easy. Thanks
for having me. Good.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
This episode is brought to you by the black Cast
Network and produced by Clint Curtis.
This podcast is recorded on Stolen Land.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
We acknowledge and pay our respects to our elders, past, present,
and for future generations.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm Mateka and I'm Courtney and we're two Queer.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
First Nations women passionate about representation for our community.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
We created this podcast to share our stories. We want
you to join us on the journey.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You're listening to Coming Out Black. This is Coming Out Black.
Thank you so much for joining in today. I'm going
to save the introductions. We have a very special guest
who's with us this morning. Please welcome Mikayla Hinkley. Thanks
for having me spoke to be here. Now this let's
get straight into it.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Who are you? Who am I?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'm a proud Aboriginal woman connections Southwest Queensland, Queen Country,
Connor Molla. So yeah, that's where I'm from. I didn't
grow up on Country. I actually grew up in western Sydney,
a place called Penrith. Both my parents grew up in
mount So. You know, I think to any of the outsiders,
you think, you know, it's pretty rough upbringing. But yeah,
(01:06):
just a typical working class parents worked really hard so
that we could get any opportunities that came our way.
So yeah, that's a little bit about my I guess
family background. But I'm also a professional cricketer, which is
really exciting. I've been a professional cricketer since I was seventeen,
which has been a really crazy, wonderful, awful learning journey
(01:29):
for me so far over the past almost ten years.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
But you know, I wouldn't change it for the world.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I'm also currently studying psychology and hopefully get my honors
done somewhere in the future near future.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
But yeah, no, absolutely loving that.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
That's been a part of my life for the past
couple of years now and definitely something I want to
go into and explore more in how we can help
MOB in that space as well and create strength based
approaches so for our mob. So yeah, I guess that's
a little tiny little bit about me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, just a professional cricketer.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So and how how does how does a black fellow
get into the what is traditionally known as the most
colonial sport in the world. How do you how did
you come into it? And yeah, what's been your experience
so far?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
This is such a good question and I don't think
we touch on it and half as black followers know
it because I have not met many, if any black
followers that have made it professionally from remote communities. So
I was lucky. I didn't grow up in a remote community.
I grew up in western Sydney suburbia, so opportunities weren't shallow.
(02:40):
We had opportunity to be involved in mainstream sporting organizations.
And I understand that that's a privilege that I.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Got growing up.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
And I see that there's like a massive, I guess,
hole in the system for actually giving opportunity to our
remote regional mari that don't get you know, who might
be just as good, if not better, at cricket or
skilled in any sport, but don't get that opportunity. So
I think it's might not just be a cricket thing.
(03:10):
So I guess I, yes, I'm privileged. I got that opportunity,
probably through you know, where I lived. And I guess
for me, I just wanted to do whatever my older
brother was doing, so at the time that was soccer
and cricket. He wasn't allowed to play footage just yet,
but we both we were absolute and url fanatics, so
that's something we always wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I never got to do it.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
But yeah, played cricket in soccer up until I was
about sixteen. Then I had to choose to focus on
one and that was cricket. And yeah, I just kind of,
I guess through talent alone, just kind of got shifted
into into mainstream pathways. Played what then was called Impaja
Kap which was awesome with New South Wales, and then
(03:54):
when I was about twenty, moved up to Queensland. I
haven't looked back, to be honest, so I feel like
I'm home now, which is all. But yeah, like I said,
I come from a really privileged position as a black follower.
To be able to be involved in professional sport, there's
a lot you have to sacrifice, and yeah, I definitely
understand my privilege in that cricket need to do better
(04:15):
in tapping into our remote regions of I guess for
me Queensland, but broadly the whole country totally.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And what has been your experience?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I think like if you can pull out a I
guess a highlight and a low light of your very
esteemed cricket career and taking out in putch Cup, because
I feel like that is the highlight for most of us,
what would you say has been the most impactful moment
for you playing cricket. Can you put it down to
a game or a season. That's a really good question,
(04:50):
Like I think, like highlight wise, like just career wise,
it was probably twenty twenty one season.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
We were kind of in the year before we had
like a hub situation. We were all like put into
a hub, and you know that was horrible. We don't
want to talk about that. But the next year it
was more of a bubble, so we were allowed to
travel around and stuff, and professionally and skill wise, I
got a lot of opportunity and I played really well
and we made the semi finals, and I just felt like,
(05:19):
despite previously probably feeling like I bit of self sabotage
and imposter syndrome wasn't good enough to be where I was,
I felt like I kind of finally cemented myself in
the Brisbane Heat team, which I've played for for the
past four years, and that I could compete with the
best cricketers because our Big Bash competition is one of
the best in the world. So you know, I felt
(05:41):
like I was really coming into my skin and that
I was slowly kind of reaching some sort of potential
that other people had seen in me.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I had a lot of fun that year.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I almost top scored for our fIF the over competition
with Queensland as well.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I got Player of the Year.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Like everything was just kind of starting to roll for me,
and I kind of thought it would keep rolling. But
the next season was probably the twenty twenty two seasons,
So the last year was probably.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
A real kind of crappy season for me. Like I just.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I guess I'd started my psychology degree, and I'd been
out to kind of Mala a fair bit as well,
and I was kind of just engaging more with culture
and I kind of started dating my partner now, Bez,
and she's also an ex professional athlete. So a lot
(06:34):
of things that I struggled with in the past, I
didn't know that was normal for black athletes. I just thought,
you know, like I'm just a dickhead, Like I'm just
like I need to be better, Like why can't I
be like all my white counterparts in my team, like,
you know, And I just didn't really recognize the stuff
that I was struggling with was actually really common for
(06:56):
a lot of other black professional athletes, and not even
just athletes black professionals in general, in white dominated sports
or colonial sports, I should say, so.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, I guess kind of. Yeah, met Bez. Sorry, I'm
like trying to think where I was up to.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You met Bez and we started dating and then she
was really helping me through some of these issues, and
she's going, actually, no, like I struggled with that too.
I know this person, this person, and this person really
famous professional athletes that have been through the same thing,
and I'm like, oh damn, like this is a really
colonial sport. Oh my gosh, this is really systemically not okay.
(07:36):
Oh my god, Like I don't actually have that much support.
No wonder why I've really struggled through the past, you know,
six years of my career because you know, I haven't
recognized that this is such an issue.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I just it just was normal for me.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
And even like I look back further into school and
stuff like that, I'm like far out, Like I just
didn't recognize that. So I think connecting in with culture
kind of highlighted some things that weren't okay in our sport,
and I started to stand up for that a lot.
And when you stand up for things, these emotional attachments
(08:11):
happened to things where you want to fight for it,
and when it doesn't happen, then you feel so useless
and let down. And again I talked about that imposter syndrome.
That's what I felt like last year because had all
these things that I wanted to push for for our
mob so that they could have opportunities, and I just
kept getting kicked backed and kicked back, and the flow
on effect went into my profession and into my skill
(08:33):
and into my game, and I just kind of had
enough of everyone.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I didn't want to talk to anyone.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
And it was like at the point last this time
last year where we'd sit in team meetings and I
was sitting there and there was a lot going on
in community.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
At that point in time.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
There was the Cassier situation that had happened over in
WA and you know, when it affects one of us,
affects all of us. So and Danelle Wallam like that
stuff was happening as well. So I was sitting in
this team meeting and I was like, why am I here?
Like why am I here? We're talking about you know,
setting up innings against his team and trying to you know,
(09:09):
win and whatever tactics and I'm just sitting there, like,
I do not want to be here. I want to
be out with my mob, I want to be in community,
I want to be making change, and I still struggle
with that sometimes. But I think last year it just
really hit me. And I think this year, like putting
boundaries around your emotion and what you're going to invest
time into has been a bit more clear for me.
(09:30):
But yeah, I really struggled with that last year. So
I kind of had back to back highlight to low
light situation and professional sports such a rollercoaster like this,
this will continue to happen. But yeah, I guess for me,
it's not always about performing. It's not always about succeeding
or playing for Australia or you know, I love I
love NICC and im Pajia, which I'm not even allowed
(09:52):
to play anymore, but because I'm professionally contracted, you're too good. Yeah,
But you know, like it's it's so important for me,
and I think and all of us that are playing professionally,
all as black fellows that are playing professionally, to be
engaged in that competition. So you know, yeah, for me,
(10:13):
I guess yeah, leading into I guess a more grounded
space where I know where to invest my time and
emotion because I do care about opportunities for our mob.
Whether that's whether that's sport or educational health or whatever.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
It's everything. And I think crickets such.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
A little, tiny, tiny, tiny piece of my life. How
can I use that to I guess, gain momentum in
what I want to do or what we want to
achieve as a people because I have, you know, somewhat
of a little platform that I can use. I'm still
working out how to use that, but I guess, yeah,
I know I've gone on a bit of a tangent there,
(10:54):
But I think just recognizing certain inequalities and injustices in
our sport and society just really did my head in
and affected everything around me.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
And that's what I think.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
That's what people don't understand is that if one thing
for black follows happens in their life, it affects everything,
like it affects perceptions on everything, and it affects the
way that we understand things and the way that we
want to move through things. You know, with holistic people,
where multifaceted people were not. You know, Okay, well, I've
(11:31):
got good marks in maths. So I'm going to become
an engineer and like that's going to be you know,
my career path. It's well, no, actually, I'm skilled in
X y Z. I'm going to do X y Z
And that's really different in our society to have multiple
things that we want to do. So yeah, I guess
I guess that really affected me, and moving through that
(11:52):
now has been really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I love what you said about like being multifaceted and
it's deeply complex, like your experience of your professional career.
You know, some you know, some athletes are able to
you know, go to work, go to sport, go home
and not be affected by the whole world, or by
the government, or by social commentary, or you don't have
(12:14):
to worry about seeing your name in the media and
people you know immediately just commenting on your race. I
wanted to ask a little bit more about imposter syndrome now.
I did an assignment at UNI not too long ago,
and what I found was, as much as I could
find within iasis was there's no word in Aboriginal language
or toosha Alan language that translates to imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
So it's not our thing.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
It didn't come from us, so you know that was
a beautiful gift from the colony.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
How how do you work through that?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
I you know, we're kind of in our later twenties,
and like you said, you said you sort of work
through it.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I want to kind of unpack that a bit.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I think it's something that's universally experienced, and then for
mob there's another layer to it. As a woman, there's
a layer to it, and then as a queer woman,
that's not the layers. So this is probably just me
asking for advice therapy.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
How did you work through it?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I guess like the first part of it was actually
understanding it. So like you, I was given an assignment
where I had to present and facilitate a group session
around people with imposter syndrome and helping News flash, everybody
has imposter syndrome. It's like a spectrum. It's like you
get a score, you do a test, It's like that
kind of thing. So everybody has it. But I guess, yeah,
(13:35):
you're right for me. I actually had our team S
and C strength and conditioning coach. He was asking me
a bit about it when I told him I was
doing it for UNI, and he's like, oh, so like,
is it a genetic thing?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
So no, it's not.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
It's like a complete societal thing. So, like you said,
it's got nothing to do with Black followers, and you know,
I definitely don't think it had anything to do with
us pre colonization, to be honest, or affected us at all.
But yeah, it's a definite societal thing. And I think
when if we're speaking specifically about being Black followers, when
(14:12):
we're constantly measured up against Western standards and expected to
understand things and conform and agree and have a sense
of self determination in an environment that isn't ours, constantly
pushed into those environments, we're always going to think we're
not good enough.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
You know. It's funny.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Around the referendum, people a lot of mom were saying,
you know, we're living in a know, so what's that
going to change?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
And we are?
Speaker 3 (14:42):
And I guess, like, how does that not create a
sense of imposter syndrome, being like well, I'm not good
enough to be here, or you know, why am I here?
Or you know, just just complete self sabotage basically. So yeah,
and it does. It does the TI stickly affect you know,
(15:02):
black follows more, it affects women more. When I say
affect it means like we'll rate higher with higher characteristics
of imposter syndrome. And then yes, also like diversity groups
like queer LGBTQA plus communities, it affects them more again
for the same reasons, like you know, you there's all
(15:25):
this normativity that we're meant to live up to and
conform to and and there's no room.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
For autonomy at all.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
So and I guess that's been breaking down over time,
and it will continue to break down over time, and
you know, us black follows will get to the point
where hopefully one day we do feel autonomy and what
we're doing and we do feel good enough. And I
think that's what's so good about being around mob is
because you don't you don't have imposter syndrome. You know,
like not once have I gone out to Konamla and
it felt like an imposta. It's like everyone around me
(15:57):
is like, hey.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
What's happening, what's there? Communities is coming, Let's do this,
let's do that.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
And it's just like, oh, like you know, it should
just like gone with the flow with everything, and everything
feels so natural and normal, and you know, I'd never
felt a sense of normal at cricket in school, you know,
in all these systems where you know, black fellows don't
kind of understand how those systems work. You know, we
(16:26):
have our own education system outside of this western one
we're meant to be a part of. And we have
our own law outside of you know, we have an
l O R E. Outside of the law that you know,
our country bestows on us. You know, so just trying
to jump into something that is not naturally ours or
(16:46):
we work with or understand completely, it's like a melting
pot for amoster syndrome.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
You know what I mean exactly, And it's almost like
having that direct contrast of when you do go to the community,
like you're saying, like you just get treated as a
as aer, like you're not your you're not your job role,
you're not your you know, you're not the demographic that
you identify as. You're not recognized, you know, as a
professional sports person, like you're literally just you and almost
(17:12):
like you know, people keep you accountable, people humble you,
people you know, but they also they love you, and
they don't love you because of what you do, who
you are, how much money or sorry.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
They do love you for who you are.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
They don't love you for you know, for your job,
or for how connected you are, you know, to networks,
or how you're going to be able to, you know,
help them tick their box on, you know, with their
diversity initiative. Absolutely, it's just family and they just love
you for you. And I think there's a lot of
us don't really have that space outside of community because
a lot of the time that we're getting looked at
(17:45):
or I guess, like you're saying, when you don't really
belong technically. They have these programs like inclusion, but the
way that inclusion works, at least from my perspective, is
that like there's a there's a whole system with its power,
and now they're kind of opening their door to include you,
but once you get inside, it's still the same shit hole.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So yeah, it is a really interesting kind of concept
to wrap your head around.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Absolutely, and we're always thrown like I don't know about you,
but like in organizations and enterprises and businesses and whatever workplaces,
we're always thrown under like the inclusion and diversity, Like oh,
first Nations people, that's inclusion and diversity. Like nah, bitch,
we were here first, like, we're not new, We're not
this like you know, I guess I don't know, Like
(18:31):
we have been here for sixty thousand plus years. We're
not diversity. You're you're different to us, not the other
way around. Yeah, you know your systems are diverse to us.
We should not be diverse to you. And that really
annoys me about different organizations, like I guess, like, and
that feeds into what you're saying too, I think, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And like how do we restructure? It's almost just like
you need to you know, burn it all down stuff again. Yeah,
with that kind of mind set, But how do you
navigate being in these kind of Western environments that do
have that long standing you know, white patriarchal ties to
various you know, white Australia policies and so forth.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
How do you navigate that? How do you navigate it?
We're all experiencing it, you know, like it's it's it's hard.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Even UNI.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
UNI can be so frustrating sometimes because in psychology we
reflect a lot, so we've got to right reflective essays
and stuff a lot, and so sometimes it's like, oh,
culturally reflect and it's like okay, that's cool, but you
want me to reference my cultural reflection as well and
where my culture you know, I have to Western eyers
(19:54):
how I talk about my culture and that's really difficult
for me and most, if not all black follows to do.
And I'm like, how and why is this happening? Like, yeah,
I guess, I guess. I think it's always better when
you have more brown you who are going through the
same thing. You know, I've been really fortunate the last
(20:16):
maybe eighteen months that we've hired at Queensland Cricket Karen Gibbs,
who's so deadly like he has just been so awesome
with me, proud kuma man, just getting me through training
and stuff, Like he'll even come up to training and
give me throwdowns and stuff, just so they're like there's
someone else there that understands and gets what I'm going
(20:37):
through and all that kind of stuff, and he will
always catch up for coffee and that, and even just
that little bit of connection, you know, even it's just
one person, it's really helped to just debrief and just
be like, how do I communicate this issue to non
Indigenous people?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
How do I how.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Do I not be angry about this all the time?
How do how do I kind of park my emotion
about this, you know. So I think being around other
mobs really important. And you know, if you don't have
that opportunity, or you don't you know that you are
the only black follower in your organization or whatever, just
make sure you have those strong connections, whether it's mates
(21:15):
and other mob outside of work and you're just constantly
connecting with them. I think that's really important. And me
and my partner really try to make as much time
as we can in our spare time to connect in
with our with our mates and our mob in Brizzy
and then talk to our family as much as we
can too.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
So yeah, I think that's where it starts. Definitely.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I wanted to ask you because I'm like, I'm genuinely curious,
Like we've obviously just gone through a referendum process slash
a very expensive survey to find out that that Australia
is still racist. Being someone who's also you know, you
were of voting age when the plebiscite for marriage quality
(22:01):
went through back in twenty eighteen, how's that differed And
do you feel, you know, identifying as queer or part
of the LGBTQ community in contrast to being a part
of you know, First Nations community and identifying in that way.
I know that we both obviously heavily identify with both,
but there's times where some part of you is heavily,
(22:25):
way more heavily affected than the other. I want to
I want to hear kind of your experience and probably
the contrasting experiences from the plebiscite to the referendum.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
That's such a good question. I actually haven't thought about
it off the top of my head. For me, I
was in a place and a space where I was
around I'm talking about the plebiscite where I was playing
a Governor General's match against England for LA.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Yeah, I was in the Governor Generals eleven, which would
have been like a kind of situation a Prime Minister's
eleventh situation. I was nineteen, and obviously there's a lot
of queer people in sport, well in female sports, so
I was around community in that perspective, like, I was
(23:18):
around a.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Majority in that space.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
So in sport, the majority of us are from the
queer community. So I think for me in that situation,
the plebiscite passed and you know, whatever percentage of Australia
decided yes, there should be marriage equality in this country,
and that was really great, But that whole leading up
to it, I was in an environment where it was
just like.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
You know, normalized and already like a thing. And I
guess I.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Don't know, not that I wasn't in that situation with
the referendum, but in terms of like societal normativity or
like societal perspective, I think in the lead up to
the referendum, I definitely surrounded myself with people that were
pro the voice, and I probably was a little bit
(24:11):
blindslided with how people.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Weren't or wanted to vote no.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
And I always stood in a position where, like with
the referendum, I really respect mob that wanted to vote
no and did vote no. Totally respect that and would
never you know, have anything opposing to them and their
reason because we're all diverse. Every mob needs has different
needs and you know, needs to have a different voice
(24:39):
in that circumstance. So I totally understand that. What I
don't understand is is people thinking they know better or
think people thinking they can have a voice. And I
think even part of like voting was people exercising their
you know, colonial privilege or their white privilege by voting,
you know.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
So I just feel like the.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Referendum, looking back now with the perspective of it not
being successful, I just don't know if it was the
right way to go about it now. And I know
that there was people saying this long before it happened,
But now I understand that better because we've been through
this little roller coaster, emotional roller coaster of you know,
(25:25):
I guess, identifying how racist our country is again. But yeah,
I think the plever site was just like, well, I
don't know, you were just surrounded with.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I guess there was never a doubt.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
In my mind at that time that I can remember
sitting here now where it wasn't going to pass or
it wasn't going to happen, and I would not want
to imagine what would have happened if it didn't, Like
there would be proper protests, like violent protests, I think
if the plebsite didn't, like if that was a no, Like,
I don't know what you think, but I.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Just yeah, And it's almost like I wonder why we
don't have them now because of the opposition of the voice.
But yeah, they talk about like the democratic process and oh, well,
you know, we went through the democratic process, and you're like, well,
that process itself is inherently super racist and not inclusive
(26:22):
and not equitable for the demographic in which they were
voting on. And I understand that's how you get constitutional change,
it's how you get law reform. But that process in
itself obviously just isn't right. But that is a huge
example of why we're in the situation that we are
because of how it's all been set up. I want
(26:44):
to ask you a quick question. I do wonder this.
Do you think it is safer to I identify as
queer versus identifying as black in your experience within professional sport?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yes? Absolutely, And like I can't speak for everyone on
that either. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I think just because it's in female sport, and a
male would answer this completely different, so it would probably
be the complete opposite to what I'm going to say.
But I think for females it's normal. It's like, you know,
and I hate using the word normal.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
It's shitty. I hate it. There shouldn't be a word,
but anyway, you know, it's accepted. That's a better word
to say, it's accepted.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
And I guess, like, I don't know, it hasn't always been,
like it definitely has always been. And I think when
I first when I got my first contract down in
New South Wales or when I first started training with
the Breakers down in New South Wales, some comments used
to get tossed around by very high profile players that
(27:49):
were very homophobic at the time. And so you know
that was before identified as queer as well. I was
probably like fifteen sixteen, so that for me was very confronting.
But I guess yeah, as times time has moved on
and people have understood our community more and understood themselves
a bit more, Like I think that's really helped. And yeah, again,
(28:12):
like I just think it's really accepted in female sport,
whereas yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Being black's completely different.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I like, yeah, what annoys me about being black is
that people just think I'm black.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Google.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah, and I know that a lot of like every
black fellow in every other organization feels the same way
when like they might be the only Indigenous or First
Nation person in their organization. But yeah, it's my partner
said this the other day, But she's like, if you're
if you're interested enough to come and ask me that question.
(28:50):
You're interested enough to actually just go google it, look
into it, and if you want to fact check something,
come back to me and we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
I love that. Yeah, literally, that's so smart. I know,
she's pretty. Yeah she is.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
If you're interested enough in it, you should google it,
and if you want to fact check, come back to me.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I like so much information out there about it. Curiously,
it's this is so easy to act that we just have.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
A blind you know, people want to pick and choose
what they see and hear, and I hate that about
our society.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It's very true.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Where do you think you want to you want to
leave your mark sport slash the world?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
This is a good question because I don't fully know yet.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I'm twenty five, like I've got I've got a lot
of working out to do. I'm much more sure in
myself than what I was even you know, twelve months ago,
which is awesome. But I think for me in sport,
like I said at the start of the podcast, I
want there to be more opportunity for our mob period.
(29:58):
But where I can have it impact is obviously sport
and in particular cricket. You know, like going out to
kind of Mala Palm Island, Mornington Island, ISA, like all
these remote communities and seeing the talent that these kids have,
Like I don't need to tell any Black follow how
talented our mobile, but you know, like for non Indigenous
(30:22):
people to explain that, it's like it leaves you speechless
because it's like there's like a seven year old girl
who has a better throwing arm than what I do
and I'm getting paid to do that.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, and she's.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Never going to get the opportunity that I get purely
because of where I grew up and you know what
I had to conform to growing up or what you know,
what I had to leave behind culture wise. And I
think I said this in another other podcast once, but
I feel like for us black follow athletes, we sacrifice past,
(30:54):
We sacrifice parts of our culture to be part of
these sporting systems. And it's the same in education, same
in health. Sacrifice parts of ourselves so that we can
be part of systems that are built for us not
to succeed, which sucks.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
And I feel like.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
When you're culturally rich, your opportunity poor. And when you're
opportunity rich, you're culturally poor. And this is the debicle
that we have amongst mob at the moment, and it
shouldn't be like that. No, it shouldn't be It should
be culturally strong, opportunity strong for everyone exactly. And before
(31:33):
when you were speaking about remote communities.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
You know a lot of people that my bad.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Before we're talking about you know, remote communities, we the
running narrative is, oh, there's so much talent, there's you know,
they just need opportunity.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
But people don't really like.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Kind of break down why things are the way that
they are. And even though we can recognize the talent,
there's a whole lot different from you know, sporting bodies
in general recognizing, acknowledging and celebrating that talent without actually
creating tangible activities, initiatives that require resources and funding.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Absolutely part of me is scared about it because they're
sporting organizations are very capable of creating these opportunities, they
have the funding. Part of me feels like, you know,
deep down, and this might be a complete subconscious thing
under the surface, is because they're scared that our sporting
systems are going to be flooded with black people because
(32:33):
we're good and talented. I'll just say it how it is,
you know, like old cop whatever heat for it.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
But you know, like it just amazes me.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
It amazes me at the little opportunity that mob get.
And you know, like I'll use my partner for an
example as well. It's just from Country North, Queensland had
to go to boarding school at fifteen to have somewhat
of an opportunity in her sport. You know, like there's
parts of you that you give up. There's parts of
(33:06):
you know, being part of a community that you give up.
And a lot of you has to conform to these
pathways and these what you need to achieve and what
you should be doing and what you shouldn't be doing.
And then when you have mental health issues, it's like,
oh my gosh, well why do you have mental health issues?
And it's like, well, why don't you look at the
fact that you know, I'm in a system that's working
(33:29):
against me, not for me, and not recognizing my strengths
and nurturing my strengths. It's actually understanding my deficits and
bringing my deficits to light constantly and telling me that
I'm not good at this or I'm not good at that.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Like you know, I guess, yeah, and then you're in
a high performance environment where you have to be better
than everyone because you feel like you have to prove
yourself constantly.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Just your.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Mered like existence I feel sometimes in those environments, and
to me, I think like just generally I'm at the
concerned about is with the rise of women's sport.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
I'm not concerned about that.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I think that's amazing, But with the rise of it,
I'm worried that we're going to follow the same pattern
as men's sport.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
You know, the old boys network.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
You know, you make it only if you get into
that school, if you move to a capital city which has,
you know, its own issues with affordability, and we're in
a cost of living in a housing crisis, like you know,
I know young athletes to drive five hours to go
to training, and they're only able to do that because
they're in a privileged position. There are for everyone, you know,
(34:33):
everyone that makes it, there's thousands that miss out and
thousands that could, you know, take it to the next level.
It's a whole systematic issue that we do have that
we need to get, you know, on the front foot floor,
otherwise we're going to end up in the same position
and I think some of the best role models this
country have right now are our female athletes.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Absolutely, but we're going.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
To lose those amazing people if we, you know, continue
your self that self serving cycle. And yeah, even though
we can point at a few blackfellows in each of
our national sporting teams, they are by no means like
they got their own devices. They probably had to outwork
so many, so much more than the other athletes. But
(35:15):
just because there's one doesn't mean more successful exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And then that's what I'm sick of. Yeah, that's what
I'm sick of. Yeah, like because it's just you, right,
you're in your club and yeah, yeah, it's just me
and Queensland. But it's not just me. Yeah, Like that's
what pisses me off.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
It's like, yeah, I'm a black athlete, I'm a black
cricket and I'm playing professionally, but I don't have to
be the only one, and I shouldn't be the only one.
And like as frustrating, it's so it's debilitating sometimes because
I know how good and I know how hard working
are more bar despite what they're working hard for, being
something that's probably going to tear them apart. Anyway, and
(35:52):
it's torn me apart, like I've you know, like the
amount of times I've wanted to quit cricket, Like I
can't count on hands and toes like fingers, and like
how many times I wanted to quit? And on top
of that the imposter syndrome, and like maybe I shouldn't
be here maybe, you know, like just it's debilitating, and
every black follower and sport experiences it, and some are
(36:15):
better at shutting it off than others. Some are better
at just being like, Okay, I'm just gonna shut it off.
I don't know. I don't know how they do it,
because I can't. You know, it's not fair. And I
can sit here and be like, oh it's not fair
and win and complain. But I think I'm actually making
the choice to be like, Okay, well, yes I'm still
good enough to be playing the level of cricket I am,
(36:37):
but I will play if I can have an impact
off the field too for our mob and create opportunities,
you know, like I want to be more active in
that space than what I am. And I think sometimes
the position I'm in is it's like, oh, we'll sort
it out. You just focus on your cricket, and it's like, no, no,
you don't understand. I can't focus on my cricket unless
I know that our mob are being looked after. And
(36:59):
the more people around me that can understand that first
Nations on first Nations, the more successful I will probably
be on the back of everybody around me being more
in terms of first nations people being more successful around me.
That will make me happy. Yeah, and again, it doesn't
just have to be cricket. It's any sport in general,
(37:19):
like netball, football, soccer, like anything you name it. Hockey,
I don't care, like give our more of an opportunity. Agreed,
hands down, one hundred.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
If you could give yourself, as a young indigenous queer
woman coming in again at seventeen, what advice would you
give yourself?
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Goodness? Where would I start? Be proud?
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Don't be proud, don't think you have to do or
be whatever you want. Else is doing and being because
A they're not black, B B.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
That's not you.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Ce.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Appreciate your life outside of sport, Appreciate who you are
outside of sport. Nurture that and you'll be successful. I
think successful is not exclusive to on the field. It's
off the field too. I think that's a big learning
(38:33):
that I've probably had in the last twelve months. I've
probably nurtured myself a bit more off the field, understood
my strengths off the field, which went nurtured, like my
gifts and talents away from cricket. In school, we're not nurtured,
you know, I'm learning difficulties and stuff, and again that's
another level of imposter syndrome. So kind of I almost
(38:55):
feel like that's been rebirthed over the past twelve eighteen
months and I've understood my abilities and my skills a
bit more away from cricket. I'm not just a cricketer
or I'm not just good at sport. You know, I'm
creative and you know I'm talented and at other things,
and all black follows are. We're multifaceted. We're allowed to
(39:17):
do a million things in a day, and we're allowed
to try a million things in a day as well,
because we're good at a million things.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
We're pretty We're that deadly.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
So that's the advice I would give myself or any
other young Indigenous athlete who is, you know, looking for
a professional career. You've got to have thick skin but
be proud. Just be proud, and you don't have to
be like the people around you, but use the people
around you who support you for you, and nine times
(39:48):
out of ten, that's your mob.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
So yeah, and look, our podcast is called coming Out Black,
and we originally created it to kind of like a
play on words. Mantique and I quite light skinned slash
complexion black follows and we often talk about how, you know,
I probably used to be a bit more straight passing.
(40:11):
So often you're constantly coming out in a different way.
Either you're coming out as First Nations or you're coming
out as queer. And I wanted to ask you, I
guess you're coming out story, and I think you probably
have both to share, but I'd love to hear about,
I guess, yeah, what it's been like coming out in
(40:32):
your family, and then also what the experience is like,
you know, coming out within sporting environment, professional environment, university environment,
when you don't necessarily present as a stereotypical black fellow.
And when I say that, I know that the stereotypical
black fellow is not the most appropriate way to apply
that lens.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
But we're still in twenty twenty three in austraight as racist.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
So yeah, I feel like we can in this context
absolutely coming out story from a queer perspective. So it's
funny you just spoke about the plebiscite, So again nineteen.
It was probably a couple of months after that had
been passed. I was playing for the Perth Scorches at
the time, and before that, I was part of a
(41:15):
team that you know, queer sexuality kind of stuff. Not
everyone was that open about it, Like there was definitely
people in our team that had you know, female partners
and stuff like that, and that was really great, but
in terms of it being like in my age group
and around my age group.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Accepted, probably not.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
So went to Perth and oh my goodness, Like I
had the time of my life there because I don't
know if we had a straight girl in our team,
Like I really don't know if we did at the time,
and that was amazing for me because I was like,
oh my gosh, like we're all queer.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
This is deadly, like my people, this is sick.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yeah, And I had the best time and I just
felt like I was in my own skin because I'd
been in a relationship for like a year and a
half to year at that point, and like I hadn't
told my parents. Yeah, and that's really common for young queer,
young queer people, So you know, my partner was my
best friend at the time, and it was just like
(42:13):
you know, like you know, the real common story. But yeah,
I just remember like the Perth girls like talking about
like they're coming out stories and like some of them
still hadn't told their parents because they weren't accepting of
it and all this stuff. And you know, I'd worried
about it for so long, and unfortunately, when I was
over there, I got stress fractures and I couldn't play anymore.
(42:34):
But perf flew my mum over and I was kind
of like in my head, I was like I've been
the most comfortable I've been in my life here with
these people just being who I am. I'm going to
tell mom, Like I'll tell mom, you know, we'll go
for a drive out to the Margaret River. We'll have
some wine, and I'll tell it.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
We did that. We drove out to the Margaret River,
we had some wine.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
It was like about to come up in conversation and
I was just speechless, like I couldn't say it, and
I was just like, how do my mom's a Christian
and she's that's like, she's very heavily involved in the
Anglican Church. So and she's worked, you know, in organizations
in the Anglican diocese as well, so you know that's her.
That's part of her life as well. So for me,
I'm just like, I just don't want to be judged,
(43:19):
like the worst person I could be judged by is
my mother. A good relationship with my mother, so I
think I was just terrified of that. Anyway, mumad left,
I was still in Perth and I remember telling one
of my teammates for the Scorches that I was going
to tell her and she's like, did you tell her?
I was like no, and then I just said like,
I think I'll write a letter. Like I'll write a letter.
(43:41):
So I wrote a letter. I had like crutches. I remember,
I'll never forget. I had to get an uber to
the bloody post office to post this letter. And you know, me,
being a typical teenager in this generation, didn't know how
to post a letter. So I did go into the
post office be like how do I post this? They're like, well,
how quickly do you want it to get there. I'm like,
(44:01):
what's the quickest it can get there, Like, just get
this done with.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
So they're like giving me a little express envelope and
I put it in. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
I just turned off my phone for two days because
I was like, I don't want to talk to anyone anyway.
Two days later I turned my phone on and I
had like really lovely messages from my mom and my
dad and then just like it's like, you know, that
was really really supportive, and you know, I'm lucky in
that sense that it wasn't this big thing for them.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
It was just like okay.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Like for my mom, she's always just been like this,
there's things that I need to like conceptualize a bit,
but she's always been so supportive and loving, Like her
love for me has never faultered throughout anything that.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
I've you know, done in my life. So same with
my father. My father like I'm his only daughter.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
I've got three brothers, so he's just like, nuh like,
if you're happy, that's all that matters.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
So yeah, I've been awesome. I also have a queen younger.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Brother as well, so I kind of paved the way
for him a bit, I like to say, but yeah,
so I was my coming out story. I think like
being you know, I prefer to myself sometimes as a
fair skin Murray and my partner's like, yeah, oh that's right,
yeah Southwest, Like yeah that's right, Murdie.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yeah yeah. My partner will often say like I'll kick
your shins. I'll kick your shins, Like, don't talk like that.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
You're just feeding colonial standards if you're talking about the
colorI skin. So I guess for me, like I remember
moving up to Queensland, like in New South Wales, it's
just like yeah, like sick whatever, like people call me
Cory and I'm like anyway, like I just okay whatever,
I like, you know, and then like kind of moved
to Queensland and in my team like like people knew
(45:41):
that I identified as Aboriginal, but like when I just
remember training one day, one of my teammates was like,
you don't look Aboriginal, and I'm just like.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
I was like, here we go, here we go.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
And I feel like Queensland was probably a bit more
I mean historically and politically, Queensland's a pretty racist state.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
But anyway, I.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Had to like explain myself to them, which I was
still pretty young at the time. I was twenty one
when I moved up here, so I was like, I
think I got to the point where I was like
I shouldn't have to explain the color of my skin and.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Wasn't too hell like yeah literally literally like like you know, oh,
well what else are you?
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Then?
Speaker 1 (46:21):
What else are you?
Speaker 3 (46:22):
And like I'm happy is that Like I'm also your
English heritage as well, Like that's you know, I've got
a lot of English heritage. But yeah, I guess like
even like from people that were working at Cricket Queensland
at the time, it's like, oh, well you know I'm
Aboriginal and then oh oh oh okay, then oh okay,
like just this surprise mechanism. I'm just like, you know why,
(46:45):
like that used to make me feel really uncomfortable, whereas
now I'm just like if you don't know that I'm black,
you don't know that I'm black.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Yeah, but I live and breathe that I'm black, So
that's on you, not me.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
And I think I used to be like really sensitive
to like how other people would perceive me, whereas now
I'm just like, if you don't know that I'm indigenous,
Like that's a you problem because.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
I am proud.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
I'm so proud, and you know that's the massive part
of my identity, so that's not on me anymore.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
So that was interesting, I think, like just.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
In professional places and spaces like yeah, just kind of
I guess, yeah, working out how to receive people's reactions sometimes. Yeah,
And I in saying that, like the space A Queens
and Cricket has become a lot more culturally safe for
(47:36):
me and other people as well. It hasn't always been
like that, you know, I push really hard for it
to be a more culturally safe space and they're still
room to grow there, but it's been amazing the past
couple of years too, So a lot of cultural awareness
as much as I said before, like people asking me questions.
I always see that as a good thing though, because
I just, yeah, I think as tiring as it can be,
(48:00):
burnout as educating people can be. If not me, then
who and if not now? In so you know, I
guess that's that's been really cool that people are up
to listening, which has been fortunate to be an environment
where people will listen and unders want to understand more,
which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
I love that for you.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
You know, it can be an extremely invalidating experience, and
you know, and it sounds like a lot of that
that movement has been a result of some of your
own you know, personal energy, and you know that's that's difficult.
But I think I'm so excited knowing that as more
black fathers come through you know, those pathways and following
your footsteps, is that they're going to have a better
(48:42):
experience and continue how to better experience because of your experience.
And they say the first through the fence is usually bloody,
cut up and bloody, but then the than the holes
in and then we were off.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
So you know, I think there's probably a lot a lot.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Of young, you know, young indigenous women you know only
in Queensland alone, that look up to you, and even
being older than you, I'm definitely one of them.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
I wish I was thank you. I wish I was
as good as you. Thank you No, But I just
I love the way that you speak.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
And I think, you know, I'm only a couple of
years older than you, but I think your ability to know,
like the way that you know yourself and the way
that you articulate that is yeah, is really strong.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
Thank you, and I hope it's taken a lot, Like
it's not easy. People aren't born knowing who they are.
Some people are, but that definitely wasn't the case for me,
and I've been in an environment where like you kind
of have to be like other people to succeed, yeah chameleon, Yeah, yeah,
literally literally, So I think, yeah, it's probably just like
the last twelve eighteen months being in a really healthy
(49:44):
relationship as well with someone who's very strong and sure
of themselves as well as created an environment where I
can feel comfortable to be strong and myself.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
So that definitely helps as well.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
But yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's not something
that's just happened overnight, that's for sure. But thank you
and looking forward to having you both on. Yeah, absolutely
crack up. I know you've given us a lot of
great advice that's come from her. So I think I
need to sit down with her and just literally you
(50:16):
don't even need me to come in, like just get me.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
I'll just be quiet and be like, yeah, what she said.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
It's really cool though, Like I will say, like even
last night we was sitting down like just you know,
a bottle of pinot and talking about like our education
system and how it needs to change, and having like
really in depth conversations about culture and what's hard for
us US black followers to succeed. And it's really wholesome
(50:42):
to be in a relationship where your energy, emotion, and
momentum is going towards the same thing. She's completing her
master's in indigenous education. I'm doing psychology and monitoring in
developmental psychology and community psychology. So we kind of combined
and a lot of ideas and we're collaborate, like our
culture's collaborative learning environment pre colonization.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
So to be able to experience that's really magical and special.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
So I'm really lucky as well to have her as
part of my little support network.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
And yeah, I wouldn't have it any other way, to
be honest.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
I just realized, like, obviously we're not filming, but if
just to describe it, there's like your eyes are just
lit up.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
There you go, she's in love beuniform. I love that.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Just to close out, you know, we were talking about
your coming out through is what what advice do you
have for you know, I'm about there who you know
who identify as part of the LGBTQ community or you know,
curious thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
What's your advice on, you know, on coming out for them?
Don't isolate yourself. You know, it sucks that we have
to be brave sometimes to just be ourselves. It's like,
why can't I just be myself without effort? But you're
not alone, And I think that sounds really cliche, but
you're really not. If there's ever you know, Aboriginal torros
(52:05):
shrade Iland a kid person that wants to talk about it,
or is scared about coming out, or you know, had
a horrific experience.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Coming out, like I'm always all ear is.
Speaker 3 (52:15):
I don't care who you are aware from, like, and
I know so many other black fellows that are the same,
you know, So I guess it doesn't have to be
a daunting experience, and sometimes you work yourself up to
it in your head. So yeah, there's so much support,
and you know, you and I being some of those
people that are willing to support and help anyone that needs.
(52:37):
So yeah, just don't isolate yourself and it gets easier,
it does, It does beautiful. One day, you know you're
hiding in the school bathroom, you know, worried about your
bully calling you a lesbian because you play cricket, and
then the next day you're hosting a podcast ten years
later talking about how gay you are.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Absolutely so be proud, Be proud.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
It's funny because like I I'm Bez's first girlfriend, so
like she's like, I don't know if like you experienced that,
but when when you're like proud of having like a
same sex partner, and then it just comes up in
conversation all the time, Like she at that point where
she's just like, oh, yeah, like I'm with a woman
and that's great and she's better than your man like
naken A Gavin Nah, but no, I don't know, it's
(53:23):
it's I guess like when you surround yourself with loving
people and people who are supportive of you, then like
that's what's important. And yeah, like I got I had
the same experience in school too, like people saying like
even like saying like I was a man and stuff.
I'm like that's so like you know, like but anyway, yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Thank you so much this for coming on and how
you know, for our followers and listeners, how do we
find you on social media and otherwise? Aside from on
the field playing WBBL for Brisbane Heat and cricket for Queensland.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Where else can we find you? Instagram?
Speaker 3 (53:59):
I try to go on social media too much, but
I find myself on Instagram more than anything. LinkedIn is
also a good good space to kind of link in
professionally as well. But yeah, check out some staff I think,
you know. Post referendum, I'm pretty keen to be more
vocal and not just kind of sit and be quiet,
(54:20):
regardless of the heat that comes with that. So yeah,
I'm always open to yarning with anyone. So if you
if you need to chat, you have any questions, definitely
just DM me whatever.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Brilliant, All right, big loves this.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
Thank you so much, and you know we're all looking
forward to watching you kill it, you know, on the field,
off the field.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
And yeah, thanks appreciate it for sure, too easy. Thanks
for having me. Good.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
This episode is brought to you by the black Cast
Network and produced by Clint Curtis.
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